It seems that you will need a certain number to raid with. This sounds like radiance to me. I don't really care but I think it is funny that Turbine was happy to kill radiance but added finesse. Oh well
Printable View
It seems that you will need a certain number to raid with. This sounds like radiance to me. I don't really care but I think it is funny that Turbine was happy to kill radiance but added finesse. Oh well
Well, it's spelled differently...
Wow, where have i been. Can someone tell me what finesse is?
Finesse is explained here
http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdia...w-stat-updates
It's not like Radiance, which basically didn't do much besides gate you
Finesse seems to be a product of the B/P/E system being broken at high levels. It's a way to ignore it in enemies (and vice-versa). But I guess in raids, it will be even higher, so you can't hit anything without having a lot of it. So yeah, a way of gating just like radiance. But at least you won't cower, you just won't be able to land a blow without it.
*shakes head and sighs*
And so history repeats itself.
How Doesn't Turbine see this as radiance with a different name that doesn't affect healers? Turbine...You disappoint me.
The Finesse system is much better than Radiance ever was.
With the Radiance system people were just plain locked out of instances if they didn't meet the required amount of Radiance (which was basically a full set of sertain armor you had to grind together first).
With the Finesse system you are not locked out and you can already attempt the encounter with low Finesse.
Just that the encounter will be harder the lower Finesse you have. But you can still attempt it.
It's a big difference!
They have to somewhat gate sertain content to promote character progression. If everyone can just go straight to the new RAID with minimal gear and start farming the best gear right away. Then people will be bored again in notime with nothing to do.
Every serious MMO that has RAIDING has Instance progression via gear, chopped up in different Tiers.
Radiance was exactly like that! Finesse is not.
Well, atleast Radiance gave you hope eq. a bit more morale and dps %
especially outside the Radiance instances it was great...
Finesse seems to be giving more into the B/P/E line so we get a % in that?
not sure what to think of it, but you can't blame Turbine for not trying to re-invent the wheel of Radiance and Finesse :P
1. Finesse is not a gating mechanic. It is NOT required to do any content. If however, you do have some, it will make things slightly easier for you. There is, however, nothing to stop you doing the content without it. there is no cower mechanic which makes it impossible to do anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by vtravi
2. Finesse is NOT required by non dps or tanking characters. It lowers your opponents BPE rating. If you are in the back, healing ... why would you need to lower your opponents BPE ratings?
People really need to read up on Finesse before throwing the dummy out of the pram.
Oh and as of note, This is coming to you from someone who has tested Finesse and it's effects.
Finesse comes on almost everything.
If your on laurelin i will fill the ah with finesse crafted gear :) come and buy..
And it's not required for all classes, you can raid without it.
You will find crafted gear in this thread
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...t-2nd-age-LI-s
(armours and such a couple of pages in)
Cheap yes? you know how the Economics of Laurelin works... all cheap!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingen
just rmember that ^^
Finesse is just another combat stats added IMO for two reasons:
1) Add another stat to care at end-game after the stats consolidation
2) Fix the broken BPE system
It will be useful for DPS/tanks. Thats pretty much it.
But between Melee/Range/Tactical Offense and finesse, whats the difference? Finesse is available in many pieces of gear and does NOT gate ppl. At least, it ''gates'' like any other stat does.
You don't NEED it to raid. It's recommended. Like potions and scrolls and gear you didn't find on the floor is recommended.
You can find it everywhere. Even on the floor. Crafted stuff, quest stuff. No difficulty in obtaining it.
Absolutely true, but a lot of people will not (want to) understand this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonide
When they see a new stat being introduced, they immediately think it is another form of gating because the radiance experience scarred them for life. At first I understood the concerns. Finesse could have been available on only certain rare drops. It could have been available on all gear but crafted items and quest rewards could have given very little of it compared to raid drops. Having low finesse could have crippled you as much as having 8 dread. All of these were very unpleasant possibilities.
After the NDA lift, the info showed that those were wrong. Finesse is indeed just another stat. The way it is obtained and utilized is so different to radiance. It is more similar to our derived stats; like offence and critical ratings. But there are still those who have concerns regarding finesse. Based on what? I don't know. No rational explanation. All I see is "Radiance 2.0, Radiance 2.0"! This isn't scepticism. It is irrational pessimism.
The only explanation that I can come up with is that some people think raid bosses will start with extremely high B/P/E (like 80% each) and only those with high finesse will be able to hit at all. Not correct, but somewhat understandable. It will better after RoI launches and you experience it for yourself.
I have to say im really impressed by all the people that complains every time something "new" happens. Finesse is so far from radiance as it could be. What is wrong with that you actually "need" something to complete or even try to complete and instance or encounter!?? It seems like some people just want to log in and get all for "free". Fully equipped character with all the best on it so they don`t need to grind or farm or do anything. Well i for myself kinda liked the radiance. And i like this. It makes me feel better when i equip my char with the "best" possible gear to get victory in an encounter.
Well.... My opinions...
It is. With Finesse, Turbine has plausible deniability:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeronan
"Oh, we didn't make it so you can't participate. Your friends made that decision. It's not our fault."
===
Thankfully, it does indeed look like Finesse will be readily available, so even though it is a gear gate, it's at least a nonrestrictive and easy-to-pass one.
Also, don't forget that Finesse only reduces Block/Parry/Evade and resistances.
Resistance penetration is readily available (Legacies, Minstrel Piercing Finale) and Block/Parry can be bypassed completely just by standing behind the mob you are attacking.
They didn't have to gate the Rift, Helegrod or any of the SoA Instances and they have been the most popular Instances the game ever had...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeronan
Finesse IS a gate, just not as unforgiving as Radiance...
Could you run the Rift with Fem armour, and a level 40 weapon, and your virtues at 4-5, maybe but with a lot of difficultly. If will be the same with Finesse. You can try without and maybe succeed but it will be easier with Finesse and since it appears to be on many pieces of armour, and according to the dev diary you can cap the rating with 3-4 pieces, it will be like getting your virtues to a high level before raidingQuote:
Originally Posted by Mark_J
Ok that's a pretty silly analogy, running an Instance with gear 10 levels lower is not the same comparison as looking at an Instance that had NO gate and was widely popular. My point is simply that the most popular Instances in this game didn't have ANY gate and to suggest one is needed is in direct conflict with proven game history in LOTRO...Quote:
Originally Posted by cossieuk
There is no gate to any of the instances in ROI. Finesse just makes to content a little bit easier, just like having your virtues at max level or getting a 1st age LI. My point is the Finesse is just like other optional extras that make things a little bit easier but not neededQuote:
Originally Posted by Mark_J
Finesse is not an optional extra for the Raids and Instances.Quote:
Originally Posted by cossieuk
You honestly believe that 12 players will be taking down the dragon without loading up on Finesse?
Not sure if 12 will do it but no doubt some will try, but I would bet that 24 will do it just for the challenge at some point, just like people did the Watcher 6 man and also did the LT 6 man. Most people will use it as it makes things easierQuote:
Originally Posted by Mark_J
Also if Finesse is essential why is there none on the Minstrel raid set. Would this mean that a Minstrel could only heal in instances from now on and cant offer any DPS
Or its like running NCF without a healer. Its difficult but its duoable:)
12 people on dragon is challenge mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_J
Challenge modes that are DPS races will no doubt need some finesse. e.g. if the OD races (trees, wound challenge mode) were made in the Finesse era, I doubt that folks would be doing them in tank/DPS roles without some finesse, and would require it for anyone going on the raid.
Finesse is a vastly softer gate than radiance. Nobody without the minimum radiance (including from a token or destiny) was allowed on the radiance runs in my experience. Difficult runs (or races) will probably put a premium on finesse for tanks/DPS. But the fact that finesse is on such a huge number of items -- and some class traits too -- makes it a really better thing than radiance -- itemization much more flexible, no armor lock-in, etc. Radiance you had enough or you didn't go. Finesse you can have none as a healer. DPS/tanks can have modest amounts for non-challenge mode runs, or runs that aren't difficult for the group. Only at the extreme case, doing challenge runs that are at the edge of group ability does it seem like high finesse will be demanded...
Originally, Radiance and Hope were the same thing... back then, it did quite a bit!Quote:
Originally Posted by trancejeremy
I agree with pretty much everything you've said. Bottom line is that we traded the hard gate of Radiance for a soft gate in Finesse, but make no mistake it IS a gate.Quote:
Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise
Again, the only point I was making is that the most popular Instances this game has ever had never had any gate, not even a soft gate and those Instances were immensely popular.
Finesse will still be a required stat for all end-game raiders, its as simple as that. So, in the same way that you could try raids with low radience, you will be able to try raids in RoI with low finesse.
However, it'll be the same old thing: the more finesse, the better. It will be essential for DPS so that they can hit more often. It will be essential for tanks so their taunts dont get resisted much. It will be essential for support characters so their debuffs and dps works. Only people that might get let off are healers, but im sure it'll still be important for them.
The main difference though is that finesse comes from quest rewards, instance rewards and crafted gear. If you want it, you can get it no matter what your playstyle. So, although finesse IS radience 2.0 in the way it functions, it wont be a problem as its so easy to obtain for all playstyles.
Exactly what does finesse DO for a healer, and why are you sure it'll be important for them? Dev diary says "Finesse is a ratings-based stat that will directly reduce the Resistance of monsters as well as their Block/Parry/Evade ratings.". How much are you doing to monsters when main healing a raid? Yes, an RK healing but also doing doing backup corruption removal might care, though wardens often do most corruption duty on our raids anyway. A Mini cares when and how?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifern
And "the more the better", not sure, but I hope not. I expect most folks to function best with some, but I at least hope it isn't the dominant stat you must stack. There should be tradeoffs between finesse, offense, crits, etc...
I wouldn't call finesse so much of a gating mechanic as a stat that can boost your overall dps. Also just a little bit of finesse goes a long way towards cutting down their bpe. In the beta the DN guard set was changed so I only had one piece of finesse gear being my helm, it like instantly sat me at 7%. Mind you this is level 60 gear with lower finesse.
A lot of the armour I've seen screenshots of from beta seems to have finesse on it. Crafted armour, cloaks, etc. If its on quest items and random drops as I've heard people saying, then its going to be difficult to avoid getting some. The more of it you have the better as you'll hit more, but it looks like it will be like other stats where you have to get the balance right. If you max one stat and neglect the rest then you'll suffer in other areas.
If finesse is as easy to get as it seems, and isn't actually needed to do the instances/raids, then if players choose to start setting random limits before they let people join, then thats a problem with the players rather than the system. If you're going to do that, then why not start excluding people because they don't have enough avoidance, mitigation, morale, offence, or anything else?
So to maximize my contribution to a raid, I am forced to wear certain armor pieces? Actually DOES remind me of radiance.
Don't get me wrong, I like a good gating mechanic. But please, make it passive to keep our freedom in gear choice.
Another thing. If you can obtain finesse with trash drops, quest rewards, crafting gear, why the hell did they invent that new stat in the first place? Someone enlighten me about that often mentioned "broken" BPE system.
It is on armor, jewelery, some class traits or items (e.g. an RK chisel). Will no doubt be (is it already?) on some store consumables. Wouldn't be shocked if it were available for destiny as well. Much more widely available than radiance, much less restrictive in terms of itemization. For places where it is an effective gate, it is vastly softer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darroc
Turbine said radiance was implemented poorly, not that it was bad in its essence.
This is new take on it. I don't see anything wrong with it.
It works like the other stats. It gates in only that you want a certain level of that stat depending on your character.
Just like you wouldn't take a champ with might under 400 or a mini with low will, you aren't going to group with a player with zero finesse if their class uses that stat. My main is a Champ I already know I'll need to start looking for finesse along with my normal M/V/A. From the gear I've seen it is everywhere and on everything. If you need it you will not have to sacrifice your other stats for it. It does make life a lot easier. You're DPS shoots up when they aren't B/P/E your attacks any longer. Just a balancing act like the other stats.
Are you going to want it for raids and endgame content? Yes, certainly you will. Just like you want might or vitality or will. Too low and you won't be effective. How is that different than any other stat? This is nothing like radiance mainly because it isn't linked to certain gear. Everybody needed a certain amount of radiance not everybody needs finesse. There is never a set number you need to be at, and like the other stats you just need to get into a certain range to be effective.
Do you complain that you need to get gear with vitality on a guard, or that you need to get will on a minstrel? Just like there are a plethora of ways to get those stats at the number you need them there is a veritable zoo of ways to get finesse where you need it.
It gates you the same way that your other stats gate you. If I took my champ into BG with 400 might I wouldn't be very effective would I? Of course not because my class needs might. Is this a gate to me getting into the instance. No, I can get in and do it, and I will suck at it.
Radiance meant you could not even enter help even in a small way. Finesse just means you won't be a top contributor. It all depends on the people you play with whether you get into the instance. Me personally I'll take a guy with low finesse if I think the rest of us can make up for him.
You stated many thing's it's NOT, so what IS it?Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonwalkIntoMordor
"Just another stat" you say, so what's the point? The game has run for over 4 years without it, why is it needed now?
It's just another grind, yet another number to add to the bunch of numbers we already have, fights could be designed without it, they have been for over 4 years, the game has no need of it, it's there for time-sink purposes and that alone.
You're one of many in this thread alone that is downplaying Finesse in trying to argue it's different from Radiance in a big way .. this downplaying is in direct contradiction to how Turbine have talked about Finesse and its' huge importance to them in their instance design going forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by cossieuk
You MAY be right about its' relative triviality now, I'm sure though Turbine intend to crank it up over time, they just chose to start off low-key to minimise this exact discussion: how Finesse is to become the new Radiance gate.
It can hardly be called a grind if you naturally gather it even when killing landscape mobs whilst questing or gathering crafting mats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerin_Eldar
It offers another means of character progression / customisation. Admitted, not the most inovative adition in that, but at least they're adding something that falls into that category.
Like others stated it's about finding a balance, for example for dps classes where is the point that it's better to go for offense rating over finesse. Same as for example with healers do I go for max. power or will I try to get more ICPR.
Arguably there's classes that hardly benefit from it depending on their playstyle even if they do raid, for example a main healer that does just heal and isn't the main corruption remover in the group doesn't need much of it.
You use "grind" in a way I'm not familiar with. LIs are a grind in a wide variety of ways. Getting stat tomes in game is a massive (undoable?) grind. Virtues to 12 is a grind, particularly slayer deeds. Improving any stat, whether old or new, by seeking out new and better equipment than you currently have is one of the paths of character development in an MMO that many folks actually like though. Having things to seek out by running instances/crafting/etc is a feature, no? Making choices (is 200 finesse worth more than 60 vitality?) makes things interesting IMHO. This gives a new choice, and is against the other trends in the game, where choices are being removed. As in "it has more Might, my new primary stat from which all goodness flows, it is therefore good".Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerin_Eldar
The big difference I see between Finesse and Raidiance is two part.
1. The overall power of Radiance was too excessive. It was more important than almost all of you other stats. This forced you to go with higher Rad before making any other gear decisions.
2. Radiance was limited to the specific gear sets, and not present on any jewelry. This forced you to use a specific set of gear despite it not having the optimal set of stats. With Finesse being on a larger variety of gear and now jewelry you can pick and choose more.
I think it is more of an addition to making stat builds more interesting than anything else. Also, when it all boils down to it Raids are gated to some degree by gear. It will just as important to have some finesse as a hunter (for example) with isengard as it will to have a good RO rating and ability to manage ones power.
You are forced to wear certain armor pieces anyway. Would you raid in level 32 crafted gear? Would you raid with 2k total morale? It's just a new stat and it's not the only stat you have to beef up in order to raid. Would a champ raid with 150 might? Oh no might is the new radiance for champs!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Darroc
Just like it's a time sink to improve your primary stat? Finesse is everywhere in this expansion. I've only seen a few pieces that don't provide finesse, but those pieces have provided other stats that are just as useful. Just like any other piece of gear, it's a balancing act of what you want on your character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerin_Eldar
Here is an example. Look at your B/P/E ratings. See what your percentages are for each. Now look at it when those ratings are reduced by, say, 8%. Let's say that figure is just from quest rewards and the decisions you made when acquiring gear. This is without trying to maximize Finesse. The math-inclined can see that even that small percentage of Finesse will have some effect on a battle, which can only be to your benefit.
For the most part, you will be hard pressed to avoid getting any finesse from any gear (world drops, quest, crafted) as the more desirable gear will have some finesse on some of the pieces. As with any stat, what you choose for your character is your choice.
Do I want more melee defence or more melee crit? Do I improve my primary stat or one of the secondary stats? The only way finesse will be counted as a 'gating' stat is by those hardnosed, diehard players that have to have everything 'just so' or you won't be in my raid.
Personally, I don't play with those people, they take all the fun out of a game. I am smart enough to make my own choices on what gear to wear. When it comes to the armour, the crafted guild armour looks to be robust enough to wear to grind out the S4M's for the first four pieces of raid armour, and it may be enough even to go on the Draigoch Raid. Not entirely sure of that because we haven't had much time to test that raid yet.
If Finesse is a gate then ICPR is a gate to..you could try to raid with 100 ICPR but you´ll run out of power after 15 seconds and do as much damage as you would without finesse (and finesse is almost as easy to get as ICPR)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_J
Radiance was a real gate, Finesse is just another stat needed to increase your performance
Exactly. I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand. I need lots of morale to tank in raids so I guess morale is the new radiance as well? No it's always been like that. I guess there just isn't enough drama excreted from that line of thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris91
I'll try to state this as simply as possible. Finesse is a soft gate that will be required to complete the end game instances, the mobs will have it and you'll need to have it as well. It's not required or even necessary for normal gameplay such as questing (like ICPR would be). It's not a Stat like any other you have, it's a gate to allow you to complete the end game Instances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris91
To extrapolate your flawed analogies I could say a Character is is a gate to the entire game, if you don't have one you can't play! That makes about as much sense as claiming Finesse is just like any other Stat IMO...
ICPR is not required for questing at all far as I can see. Quest mobs generally die before my power pool is exhausted even if I had 0 ICPR. IMHO ICPR is actually largely a raiding/instance stat, and mostly comes into play in long boss fights, so the analogy to finesse isn't bad. Honestly in PVE questing, how much do you need of resistances in general? BPE? There are lots of things that are quite useful in a raid that aren't needed at all when questing...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_J
Yup. Finesse doesn't function like Radiance in any meaningful way. People making these comparisons aren't thinking it through.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonwalkIntoMordor
Radiance:
* Was a "hard gate" (you must be this tall to ride; all or nothing)
* Was only available on raid/instance gear
Finesse:
* Is a stat that makes you better at something (it's nice to have but not actually "necessary"; more is "good")
* Is available on crafted, quested, bartered, and raid/instance gear
Well I said 'normal game play' (not just questing) which would include Skirmishes. If you're like me you don't take your time through Skirmishes you run through them quickly and efficiently and that takes a respectable amount of ICPR, especially for my Captain and Hunter...Quote:
Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise
Edited to add;
ICPR is pretty important in the Moors too...
That's a curious sentence insofar as it relies on a strange premise (that it is necessary or desirable to "maximize" your contribution). Technically, though, sure... this has always been true. If you want to "maximize" your contribution, right now, you'll need a First Age weapon and OD armour (for most classes anyhow). But here's where this falls apart: you can reach and exceed the minimum thresholds for gear quality without maximizing your contribution. So then the question becomes, "What is good enough in this context?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Darroc
No more so than Morale is a soft gate, or Power, or ICPR. You need all of these at decent levels to complete pretty much anything remotely challenging in this game. Calling Finesse a "gate" of any sort is honestly misleading.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_J
If you're a Hunter and you use bow-chants to reduce your target's ability to mitigate damage, or if you're an RK with a chisel that adds to your penetration, then you're already using something that is functionally identical to Finesse. Hunters with good bow-chants and RKs with good chisels do more damage. We don't however collectively fret over this; it's just a stat that good players try to keep high. That's all.
Like I said earlier, using that flawed analogy is equivalent to claiming a Character is a gate to the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aloro
I've never claimed Finesse was like Radiance, it's clearly not the same. I AM saying it is a soft gate making it a requirement to have in order to complete the tougher end game challenges. Do you need Finesse to complete a Tier 2 solo skirmish? No, it won't help you there at all, but all your other Stats and gear are pretty necessary to successfully complete a Tier 2 Skirmish..
It's unlikely anyone is going to say something in this thread that will change my opinion on this and the flip side of that is most likely true as well so I'll leave you all to carry on the debate...
I can't speak for other classes, but I'd bet a properly built and played hunter wearing Garb of the Woods and wielding Tongannel's Joy would have stacked up rather well in the Rift. Certainly better than anyone actually using the Rift bow.Quote:
Originally Posted by cossieuk
Oh please man! All stats are basically a soft gate!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_J
Try to main tank a Raid boss with c rappy gear, low armor, might and vitality! Good luck!
Try to main heal in an instance or Raid with c rappy gear and low will! Good luck!
Finesse is just like any other stat! Like people have been saying! And like the devs themselves have been saying!
Radiance was a "REAL" gate, as it locked you out by making you perma cower!
All I can say, it is about time Turbine listened to us. It has been a long battle to kill radiance and finally we beat it into their skull that the radiance system sucked out of this world. Radiance and Radiance gating killed so many good things about this game. In addition, radiance and radiance gating forced kins to break apart or players to move on to other kins. I know, I have witnessed it!
Let us see what they do with PvMP now. I really don't care if some of you do not like PvMP. I like PvMP, been creeping off and on since 2007, and since they have it, they should improve it and not do what governments usually do and make things worse.
You're still missing the basic point: there exist a lot of "soft gates" already in the game, if you want to use such a loose definition. So, ok, you need Finesse to defeat the new tough encounters. You also need Morale. You also need Power. You also need ICPR. You also need Armour. You also need b/p/e and physical and tactical mitigation. You need a decent offensive stat for whatever kind of damage you deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_J
You CANNOT defeat encounters without all or most of the above, right now. You won't be able to defeat encounters without all of most of the above, when RoI ships.
One other thing Radiance did was create discussion amongst Turbine to offer it for sale in the Store. Who wants to bet we see Finesse in the Store?Quote:
Originally Posted by AnderlornLOTR
No need for them to do that. You can get good finesse without even trying. Almost everything I picked up had some on it. It is all over the place. Selling Finesse would be like selling the stat tomes. Only useful for those players wishing to push to the very limits. Now that the NDA has been lifted start looking around at the stuff that is getting posted about gear. You'll notice that finesse is nearly on all of them. If you're worried about not having enough for the raid, don't be there is finesse all over the place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_J
Also though you don't need it for most content that doesn't mean it isn't useful. I don't need maxed might now for most situations but it is still nice. Just like high might lets me just plough through most things so does high finesse. Like all the other stats and gear you won't notice you are lacking until you try to do the real hard stuff.
Absolutely no argument there! At ridiculous prices no less; just like certain items in the auction hall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_J
Or you that daft or what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_J
Radiance was only available on instance/raid gear and so hard locked instances based on amount of Radiance. I.e. like Tiered RAID's like in AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Rift, etc.
Finesse is just a newly introduced Stat that will be on "EVERY" piece of gear in RoI! Crafted, dropped, quests, instances.
How do you know Turbine was discussing adding Radiance to the store? If you know something we don't I'm sure we would all appreciate the extra info.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_J
Plus Radiance was around for only 6 months after they added the store. Seems like they were pretty set on getting rid of it by then.
I heard that I cannot join the big raids witl lvl 10. Thats ridiculous. Just another gate.
LOTG!!!
At the risk of sounding like a sycophant:Quote:
How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
Radiance was a stat that counteracted gloom found only in the Vile Maw, Dar Narbugud, and Barad Guldur. The radiance stat could only be found on armour pieces earned through repeatedly clearing dungeons and raids.
Finesse will be a stat the lowers the Block/Parry/Evade chance and Resistances of any enemy in the game. It will be found (supposedly) on armour pieces and jewelry, which can be obtained from landscape enemies, quest rewards, crafting, PvMP barters, dungeons, and raids.
They mentioned it as one of the solutions they had considered in the "We're removing Radiance from the game" announcement stuff. Not sure if it was a dev diary or not, but I think it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by socom33
that to me is thew big differance, raidance basicly locked you into a certin set progression pattern, finess is something that sounds like it'll be on every gear, so you don't need to have completed "the dungeons of grindina" to do "the tower of phat loot"you could presumably do the tower of phat loot in crafted or random reward gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingen
+rep to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptor38
excellent write-up. All the radiance 2.0 folks should read this. And then re-read it.
You need to go and read the definition of finesse again, because you don't appear to understand how it works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_J
From the Dev Diary:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dev Diary
Finesse reduces enemy's avoidance and resistance, so yes finesse actually will help you in a Tier 2 solo skirmish. The mobs will block, parry, evade and resist your attacks less often.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_J
The mobs in instances/raids will have more finesse than landscape mobs. All this means is that you will avoid/resist their attacks less often, so you take more damage. Your finesse rating has no effect on theirs, or how much they reduce your stats by. You'll take the same damage if you have 0 finesse as if you had 10000 finesse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_J
All that your finesse affects is how often you will hit the enemy. Even if you have no finesse, you'll still hit them, just not as often.
Its not required, but it will make it easier. Just like high offence, crit, avoidance, resistance, morale, power, anything else is not required for "normal gameplay".Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_J
It is the same as another stat, how about crit defence? If you don't have any of that, you're going to get critted much more often, but no one complains about how that's a gate. It works in the same way, reducing some of the enemy's stats. The only difference is that finesse affects more classes than just tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_J
I'll have to ask again.
If it is just another stat, why did Turbine invent it?
Who asked for this? What is so damn good about that new stat that it needed to be put in the game?
This happens in a lot of MMO's that new stats are introduced with expansions to continue enabling character progression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darroc
There comes a moment that you reach the limit of your current primary stats and then the easiest way is to add a new stat to the game, required for the new content.
Our stats (mainly resistances and mitigations) need to go higher as we go higher in level but they must not go too high. Sure you can have caps on them but guess what? Caps are gone. Finesse is a way of assuring that a monster (or a player) with ridiculous amount of resistances can still be hit fairly often by those who should be hitting fairly often. Otherwise killing a single mob would take hours due to him avoiding 90% of our attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darroc
At least that's my take on it.
Stat Caps are gone, yes. But BPE/resistance will still have a (raised) cap.
But even if that would be of importance, why not solely adjust the mobs BPE instead of putting Finesse on hundreds of items, balancing them with all possible encounters etc..*
The dev time put in there could have been of better use. Maybe for features that would make RoI worthy of an expansion...
There's got to be another reason.
*just assuming, I'm no dev and wouldn't want to be one
Please name a few. Just curious.Quote:
This happens in a lot of MMO's that new stats are introduced with expansions to continue enabling character progression.
Why not? They've invented new stats before, look at crit defence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darroc
Both that and finesse allow Turbine to keep our stats limited while still allowing the appearance that they are improving. If you have 15% block at level 65, so you're at the cap, then when you level to 75 you need to increase your block, but you still only have 15%. If they increase or get rid of caps, then you can increase your block to 25% at level 75. If they give the monster 10% finesse, then you still block the monsters attacks 15% of the time, but you still feel as if your character has progressed rather than just staying the same.
I understand. But why do I need finesse then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphoras
You will need it in raid and on some instance bosses (but it is not something which will prevent you from doing that instance or raid).Quote:
Originally Posted by Darroc
Stop crying about finesses!
It is v easy obtainable and you will just slot gear with more finesse when you're in raid.
Its not big deal and ppl crying that it is "new radiance" needs to see the doc. :cool:
I play 5 MMOs, I've not seen this at all before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeronan
I have played EverQuest 2 for many years for example and new stats have been added with pretty much every expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darroc
So it's a "King's new clothes" illusion, "feel good" mechanic, I see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphoras
Aren't most advancements an illusion? You hit harder as you level, the mobs get more morale/mitigation. Healers heal better, mobs hit harder. etc. But still, the perception of advancement is desirable...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerin_Eldar
Anyone who has played MMOs where fighting higher level monsters was actually difficult can think of it like this....it helps you hit stuff/ How many MMOs are there where you fight some a coupe levels above you and you simply cant hit it? And it hits you every single time. Thats pretty much what it does from the looks of it. I doubt it follows that simple a mechanic is this game since missing stuff at levels higher than you is (was) not a major concern, although red mobs do avoid a lot of attacks in this game also. But hitting something makes it a lot easier to kill it. If youre missing half the time then obviously it will take twice as long to kill it.
So, if im getting it right after reading a bit in the forum and this post, finesse is just a stat that could be compared to the "- X Penetrate Target Resistance" we see now in tactical classes in the way it works, just that finesse works on B/P/E?
Amazingly, this game has lasted 4 1/2 years with the need for a '+ To Hot' stat, so far Turbine have failed to explain why its' needed now.Quote:
Originally Posted by heatherjewel
Also, in many games AGI is used to boost 'to hit', we already have AGI and classes that will need Finesse already need AGI, so Turbine could have made THAT modify this, they didn't need to invent yet another stat people will need to grind gear for.
Correct. It's also like the Hunter's Breach-finder bow chants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laic
Without Radiance you were crippled in raid fights. The gloom/dread would make you as ineffective as a lump on a log. An entire raid could wipe if a key player didn't have enough radiance.
Without finesse you will have a harder time hitting more powerful mobs. It will still be possible to hit them, it'll just be a whole lot easier with finesse. The raid will have to work harder to make up for your lessened dps, but it's not something that'll make the fight impossible.
As to the "we've never needed a to-hit stat before"... Agility was our to-hit stat. And to-crit stat. And to-evade. And to-parry. That's a lot to derrive from one stat. And if we're simplifying other things with RoI (resistances), we gotta have something to balance it out so it isn't too simple.
I understand how radiance and finesse appear on the surface different but I can think of a dozen ways that they're a lot alike. There's been the argument in this thread that a lack of finesse doesn't make you useless in a fight like radiance did; I would argue that that is totally inaccurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElanMorinTedroni
Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough finesse you will have a really hard time hitting things. If you don't hit things you will fail. You may as well be cowering in the corner with dread at that point if you're not able to do much damage on things.
If someone has never played another MMO such as Rift that has a mechanic like this already let me tell you, it is a gating system and might as well be radiance 2.0 dumbed down. I played Rift and if you didn't have enough points into the equivalent "finesse" stats over there you wouldn't be taken on instances or raids. So what did you have to do? You had to go grinding out t1 instances so you could move on when you finally got the better gear.
Mark my words: you WILL be hearing people adding into their LFG's "Must have XYZ amount of finesse". Maybe you don't cower the way you would with dread/radiance but without the right amount of finesse you will be equally useless in a raid/instance.
This is getting silly and let me show you why:Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePhobos
Quote:
Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough might/agility you will have a really hard time hitting things for very much damage. If you don't hit things hard enough you will fail. You may as well be cowering in the corner with dread at that point if you're not able to do much damage on things.
Quote:
Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough power you will have a really hard time hitting things because you'll be out of power too soon. If you don't hit things you will fail. You may as well be cowering in the corner with dread at that point if you're not able to do much damage on things.
You can make the same argument for any stat when it comes to one of the most difficult t2 raid challenges in the game.Quote:
Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough morale you will have a really hard time hitting things because you will be dead. If you are dead and can't hit things you will fail. You may as well be cowering in the corner with dread at that point if you're not able to do much damage (because you're dead).
Being a hero of middle earth I find it hard to believe that you will be frequently missing when you attack your enemy.
Companys dont pay Devs for the time to create a new game mechanic on a whim.
There is a reason for Finesse, it will be important, it will inconvieniance and/or pee a lot of people off.
We just dont know the full details yet.
Being a big bad of Middle-earth I find it hard to believe I would get hit very often. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ashesofatrocity
Well, I'd be interested in hearing those. You didn't present any of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePhobos
Well, you'd be missing the point then. ;)Quote:
There's been the argument in this thread that a lack of finesse doesn't make you useless in a fight like radiance did; I would argue that that is totally inaccurate.
Radiance was a binary/digital gating system. All or nothing, on or off, one or zero. You either had enough Radiance, or you cowered uselessly. There was no in-between, no grey area.
ALL OTHER STATS are analog gating systems. That includes Finesse, Morale, Power, ICPR, your primary attack stat, etc. They're spectra that run from none to all, and there's no predetermined spot where you have "enough". More is better, and it's up to the player to decide how much they want. The game mechanics don't tell you, "OK, you have enough Morale to defeat this boss." That is, again, completely different from how Radiance worked.
Radiance was a hard gate. If you didn't have enough, you couldn't possibly succeed.
ALL OTHER STATS are soft gates. If you are a bit low on them, you can still squeak by with luck and skill. Finesse is no different.
Replace "Finesse" above with "Might" and it reads exactly the same. That's indicative of the underlying fact; they're similar stats.Quote:
Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough finesse you will have a really hard time hitting things.
Not at all. "Equally useless" is completely inaccurate there. Without enough Radiance, you could not do anything. Anything at all. You couldn't swing and miss. You couldn't fire off skills. You couldn't move around. Without enough Finesse, you'll miss more often.Quote:
Mark my words: you WILL be hearing people adding into their LFG's "Must have XYZ amount of finesse". Maybe you don't cower the way you would with dread/radiance but without the right amount of finesse you will be equally useless in a raid/instance.
These two things are not - remotely - the same.
There are people who have done the raids, who have tested the game on beta and who have stated that finesse is NOT the crippling mechanism that radiance was and was not a huge factor in the raids. It makes you more or less effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePhobos
Unless you have done these things too, you frankly have no leg to stand on.
Quote:
Mark my words: you WILL be hearing people adding into their LFG's "Must have XYZ amount of finesse". Maybe you don't cower the way you would with dread/radiance but without the right amount of finesse you will be equally useless in a raid/instance.
What evidence do you have to support this? The NDA was lifted. We have access to the knowledge of beta players. What evidence in there supports your claim?
The difference is that you won't need a specific amount of finesse for a raid. You'll just miss or be resisted more often. Finesse seems like it won't be a big requirement for healers in any case. Plus finesse will help you in day to day adventuring. I assume you will be able to get finesse from perfectly normal jewelry and gear as well. It just does not sound at all like radiance.Quote:
Originally Posted by vtravi
Actually I was never opposed to the idea of radiance and I don't know why people got worked up over that. If you did not raid you did not need radiance (and I don't raid so I'm in that camp). If you did raid then getting geared up is a perfectly normal part of raiding, and having to run some 6 person instances is not considered an onerous task by raiders.
There's always a raid gate. Even if it's not formalized in game rules the other raiders won't invite you if you don't pass the gear check.
The real issue with the Moria gear was not the radiance but that it was essentially overpowered compared to the next best gear and so everyone wanted it, radiance or not.
That's because in order to get Rift gear you had to go into the Rift and adventure. You couldn't put the gate keys on the other side of the gate, so clearly Rift gear was not a requirement to run the Rift.Quote:
Originally Posted by CWood
This made me spit coffee all over my keyboard +repQuote:
Originally Posted by BrianDavion
I can sum finesse up and this whole thread in three words.
'Adapt or Die'
simples
You will. In fact, some examples of things can get finesse from:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohi
- Landscape quest reward gear
- Treasure drop gear (armor -and- jewelry)
- Crafted gear
- Raid gear
- At least one Hunter skill
- A certain crafted RK chisel
- Scrolls of (temporary) Finesse from the store (85 TP, lasts for 90 minutes)
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y28...RO/finesse.jpg
so dose this mean we can put this myth to rest? everyone knows its not radiance? All the dooms dayrs can start freaking out about something else?
O rly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennent
Nobody in this thread showed how finesse is different from, lets say, tactical offense. Seriously. It's the same thing. They consolidate a lot of stats. So they added one stat for b/p/e. Not a big deal.
I never heard ''10/12 BG, you must have 11.5k tactical offense or ####''
Lets say it AGAIN: If you are under the finesse gate, you cower. Plain and simple; If you lack some tact/melee/range off, you may do 95-98% of the DPS of the top geared DPSers. I see a BIG difference. Finesse will work the same way.
Thanks once again, Jadzi. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadzi
This makes it apparent just how close the connection is between penetration on chisels and Finesse. They've literally replaced the former with the latter there.
I think you meant to say, "If you were under the Radiance gate, you cowered."Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonide
You've solved the mystery of Finesse. They just wanted people to be able to describe their stats without getting censored in the chat window. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aloro
Lol! I wonder if they'll rename the Hunter skill to "Finesse Shot". :DQuote:
Originally Posted by dietlbomb