Calming verse duration

I was just reading the patch notes and saw calming verse effects will last for 10 seconds.Also two linnod traits will no longer enhance this skill.If this is true,this is a huge nerf.My calming verse is instant cast and last for 60 seconds.Decreases threat a lot for long time.Decreasing threat by 25% for 10 seconds is nothing but a nerf.This skill has 1 min cooldown.I won't even use this for 10 second effect.I was excited to see the changes but now I'm not happy about it.Can anyone explain this to me ?

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Originally Posted by choon_blaze

I was just reading the patch notes and saw calming verse effects will last for 10 seconds.Also two linnod traits will no longer enhance this skill.If this is true,this is a huge nerf.My calming verse is instant cast and last for 60 seconds.Decreases threat a lot for long time.Decreasing threat by 25% for 10 seconds is nothing but a nerf.This skill has 1 min cooldown.I won't even use this for 10 second effect.I was excited to see the changes but now I'm not happy about it.Can anyone explain this to me ?

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The 25% is a perceived threat, so it's not supposed to be used all the time. This is more of an "Oh ####" button that you can hit to make a mob care about you less right away, as opposed to not generating as much threat to begin with.

In addition, there are bonus effects for Calming Verse depending what line you trait. I know one of them is a 20% run speed.

But how long will the calming verse last ? If all the effects will last only 10 seconds,threat management will be way harder.Faster run is nice but only 10 seconds ? CV will be such a useless skill.I don't see how 10 second threat decrease is better than constantly keeping -20% threat that's all.I don't care about the run speed,just don't mess this skill up please ! Rk had a lot of nerfs already.I can't believe rk is still a premium class.

Also calming verse IS supposed to be used all the time.It's not an oh sh.t button.How else do we manage our threat ?

Have you even read the patch notes or ZC's forum posts? Yes, right now it's supposed to be used all the time, and people complained about that, so he's rolling the damage and healing bonuses into the traitlines and reworking the rest of the skill to be an "oh ####" button.

Before, you'd use it as a pre-emptive skill, but all you'd have if something came running after you was Distracting Winds. If that was on cooldown, you were screwed. Now you have to be a little more careful with your threat, but if you mess up you have more skills to deal with it. You 'manage your threat' by not going insane DPS or massively overhealing your target. You know, put some thought into what you're doing instead of rolling your face on your keyboard.

Lightning: Calming Verse increases movement speed by 20%.
Fire: Calming Verse makes all your inductions not able to be knocked back.
Healing: Calming Verse allows Mending Verse usable while moving with no induction.

Dunno about you, but I'd much rather have to actually think about threat and get these cool bonuses and get a new panic button over having the old boring Calming Verse that required you to always trait one red and one yellow and had to be constantly used for bonuses that should be passive. This is definitely not a nerf, it's just a slight change to playstyle.

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

Have you even read the patch notes or ZC's forum posts? Yes, right now it's supposed to be used all the time, and people complained about that, so he's rolling the damage and healing bonuses into the traitlines and reworking the rest of the skill to be an "oh ####" button.

Before, you'd use it as a pre-emptive skill, but all you'd have if something came running after you was Distracting Winds. If that was on cooldown, you were screwed. Now you have to be a little more careful with your threat, but if you mess up you have more skills to deal with it. You 'manage your threat' by not going insane DPS or massively overhealing your target. You know, put some thought into what you're doing instead of rolling your face on your keyboard.

Lightning: Calming Verse increases movement speed by 20%.
Fire: Calming Verse makes all your inductions not able to be knocked back.
Healing: Calming Verse allows Mending Verse usable while moving with no induction.

Dunno about you, but I'd much rather have to actually think about threat and get these cool bonuses and get a new panic button over having the old boring Calming Verse that required you to always trait one red and one yellow and had to be constantly used for bonuses that should be passive. This is definitely not a nerf, it's just a slight change to playstyle.

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Yeah this guy is pretty much spot on really. I mean MV while moving and no induction.... thats pretty sweet. I used calminng verse all the time in the moors for the +10% damage buff but after the changes coming It will be hard not to make him a healer again.

ZC did a good job working out the RK for this update. It isnt perfect (fire line people might not be thrilled) but its pretty dam good. Calming verse is a reasonable change IMHO, 120 run speed in lightening? thats dam sweet too.

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Originally Posted by choon_blaze

Also calming verse IS supposed to be used all the time.It's not an oh sh.t button.How else do we manage our threat ?

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I believe that CV was changed exacly because people used it all the time. It became a mandatory click-once-every-cooldown button which isn't very fun game-play. Some people even went so far as to suggest that it was made into a toggle skill which is just one step from a passive bonus.

The damage/healing bonus is now permanent from traits but the threat reduction is gone. Of the new functions you get from CV I think the healing one is the, by far, strongest one. I can see healing in instances becoming easier with this (think of eye in Foundry end-fight as a good example) and this also goes for healing in the Moors where green-tingling immobile targets seem to be some kind of homing beacon for creep DPS :)

The CV change is good. Both bonuses (healing and damage) have been added if you trait deep on each tree, so you won´t lose damage/healing for the skills you focus in.

The CV new buffs are nice, specially the healing one, and the Lightning one for the Moors is also very good.

The issue old CV has left, is the threat. -25% perceived threat for 10 seconds is really mediocre, compared with continuos -20% threat we received. Already got issues with threat DPSing with Fire, can´t imagine what can happen now... Healing will have also a -25% threat lost, meaning that we will get more healing aggro, specially on some fights as F&F, Saruman and acid, which can cause a wipe (F&F and Saruman looks the worst as in Acid you should be fine using CV right when the adds spawn).

If ZC puts that -20% threat back in some kind of passive/trait/whatever, we should be fine and we will thank the CV changes alot.

I'm sorry but I don't understand why you people prefer getting aggro then use a panic button.It's really a stupid change.People will start to die in boss fights a lot.Where are you gonna run at boss fights ? Definitely an unnecessary change.People will prefer other dps classes even more to a rk.

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Originally Posted by choon_blaze

I'm sorry but I don't understand why you people prefer getting aggro then use a panic button.It's really a stupid change.People will start to die in boss fights a lot.Where are you gonna run at boss fights ? Definitely an unnecessary change.People will prefer other dps classes even more to a rk.

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In some boss fights (Lightning, F&F) you cant get aggro. Period.

I saw the 20% bonus to run speed and started jumping up and down (literally lol) then i saw that they're taking 20% off of chilling rhetoric........

so now i gotta do 2 inductions for the same benefit, this is a nerf to moors survivability, though i like the additional damage, i never traited the linnods in the moors so an extra 10% damage bonus is welcome....... but i was really hoping chilling rhetoric would get better. it was by far the strongest skill an rk had imo

choon_blaze, New Calming Verse is an Epic win. Five Mending be followed without induction, and +20% run speed in Etthen sounds very good.

Well, the red line is not as good, but still interesting in Some bosses. Now Calming Verse is not for noobs, I have proven this new skill and I liked very much. According to developers this was his original intention, to make CVs for key moments, not the skill to be rotating as if we were automatons ...

In addition, you have the old stats of the CV in the bonus set of the traits. And best of this, save 2 traits dedicated to CV, two traits unfortunately always indispensable.

Carefully read the changes before cry.

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Originally Posted by Bradegor

In some boss fights (Lightning, F&F) you cant get aggro. Period.

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I did, in Lightning

Though Lightning traited, not Fire, so missing Mystifying Flame

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Originally Posted by Jetadoc

choon_blaze, New Calming Verse is an Epic win. Five Mending be followed without induction, and +20% run speed in Etthen sounds very good.

Well, the red line is not as good, but still interesting in Some bosses. Now Calming Verse is not for noobs, I have proven this new skill and I liked very much. According to developers this was his original intention, to make CVs for key moments, not the skill to be rotating as if we were automatons ...

In addition, you have the old stats of the CV in the bonus set of the traits. And best of this, save 2 traits dedicated to CV, two traits unfortunately always indispensable.

Carefully read the changes before cry.

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Funny thing about the new CV and MVs is that you cast right now 5 MVs in 10 seconds. The only advantage seems to be to cast it on the move. I agree it´s enough advantage to use it, we lacked heals on the move.

CV for key moments? well, then we need a threat aggro stance or something like that. With 20% threat reduction, i still see ourselves pulling aggro from time to time. Without it ... it´s gonna be a serious hurt to our DPS, one problem other DPS classes won´t have. Plus, as you probably know, many raid fights have to be done so noone pulls aggro off bosses or adds, or there will be wipes or very, very harsh situations.

I don´t know if that was their original intention ( I haven´t read that. Sources?), and we already had a threat reduction skill for key moments. It´s called Distracting Winds. We need a constant source of threat reduction, or a skill that permanently drops aggro. Whichever. Champions have it, burglars have it, hunters have it. RKs not having it will be an issue, for sure.

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Originally Posted by Chris91

I did, in Lightning

Though Lightning traited, not Fire, so missing Mystifying Flame

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Yeah, we all had do it that from time to time, and we have died or killed our raid for that. But for Lightning raid DPS, the threat change will be devastating. There is no way a Lightning DPS RK will not get aggro if the threat issue isn´t changed. Well, one reason to come as Fire, i really hope the Fire burst will be enough to still be able to play Fire, as Lightning ...

I don't care about healing on the move.I'm not gonna trait for healing.I will be dps.And our light armour with no survival skills such as bubble plus now threat reduction is removed,we'll be the worst choice for dps.New calming verse is an epic fail,not win

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Originally Posted by choon_blaze

I don't care about healing on the move.I'm not gonna trait for healing.I will be dps.And our light armour with no survival skills such as bubble plus now threat reduction is removed,we'll be the worst choice for dps.New calming verse is an epic fail,not win

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Agree as well. I use CV during fighst to I don't have to use it like it was described (Oh S^#%) in a pinch. Especially dring harder fights where you heal alot and creat the aggro. Not liking this change.

So I think there is a problem of concept in the background. CV is not really an aggro skill, it should not. Curiously, his main strength was -30% aggro that gave you (and you need two traits class!).

The CV I feel great as it will be in the update6. The solution for continuously reduce the aggro should not be the CV. It should not be forcing you to activate a skill automatically every minute. The solution is to create a new skill (and put the -10% aggro in 4R and 4Y).

The new CV is too interesting buffs to submit it to take off the aggro continuously.

Distracting winds and bonus traits in red and yellow are the epic fail, not CV.

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Originally Posted by Thorgrum

...(fire line people might not be thrilled)...

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I'm not... LOL! Only because I haven't figured out a good rotation though. It IS back to juggling DoT's again, rather than spamming FR. But there's a lot more going on, what with insta-writs, figuring out where/when to use Calming Verse and Self-Motivation, etc. Once I nail down the new timings of all the skills, it should be a breeze.

Oh, and I noticed that Smouldering Wrath was ticking for 1000+ per tick, with NO CRITS. NICE!

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Originally Posted by Jetadoc

Distracting winds and bonus traits in red and yellow are the epic fail, not CV.

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absolutely sign²

For healing I do not like this change. If you DPS too much and pull agro you can slow down a bit. If your Raid/Fellowship is getting damaged and you heal alot and pull agro you cant stop healing...well you can, but then everyone dies.

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Originally Posted by loki84

I saw the 20% bonus to run speed and started jumping up and down (literally lol) then i saw that they're taking 20% off of chilling rhetoric........

so now i gotta do 2 inductions for the same benefit, this is a nerf to moors survivability, though i like the additional damage, i never traited the linnods in the moors so an extra 10% damage bonus is welcome....... but i was really hoping chilling rhetoric would get better. it was by far the strongest skill an rk had imo

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CR is better than ever with U6 imo.

Without needing to trait both CV traits I have room for the CR trait and Confounding Principals trait (giving 6% more damage) that adds the 20% back on the slow AND gives the charged buff (+50% damage to EoS). I see a creep, start melting him... He runs and i use CV 20% speed... gets to half morale or less... CR, EoS and EC for possibly over 10-12k in 2 skills, creep dead. Distracting Winds 50% slow for 10s is also clutch in the moors and with CP trait cd is reduced.

Even when in PVE the CR trait will be great for EoS additional damage.

How long will cv last ? With the 2 enhancing traits are gone,i suppose it will be a 10 second effect with 1 minute cooldown.This is a top notch nerf.Very much needed

Still can not understand it, the CV is not nerfed, is a new skill, completely new, keeping the old stats (except the aggro) in the bonus traits. CV has improved, and the Aggro has been nerfed. But the aggro management should not be exclusive to the CV (but unfortunately, if). At least to me, the skill is boring now, no gameplay logic.

We still have to see how it affects the loss of% of aggro, if reversed in the chisels, or some trait, they have time to patch.

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Originally Posted by Bradegor

I don´t know if that was their original intention ( I haven´t read that. Sources?), and we already had a threat reduction skill for key moments. It´s called Distracting Winds. We need a constant source of threat reduction, or a skill that permanently drops aggro. Whichever. Champions have it, burglars have it, hunters have it. RKs not having it will be an issue, for sure.

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Hunters have three methods of reducing threat, two of which RK can match and the third being useless.

Beneath Notice: Essentially does the same thing as the new Calming Verse does, with more loss to perceived threat but a longer cooldown.
Hunter class item: Lowers threat just like our threat chisel
Endurance Stance: Only lowers threat when using Quick Shot, and the damage actually done by Quick Shot + the automatic auto-attack you'll get afterwards will generate more threat than the threat lost via Endurance stance, so no difference in threat here really.

Distracting Winds + Calming Verse + Threat Chisel = more ways to keep threat off of the RK than the hunter, in addition to being able to self heal, unlike a hunter.

As mentioned by other people in this thread, try to think of the new Calming Verse as a fully different skill with different ways to use it optimally. While the old skill needed to be used every time it was off cooldown and was a hefty source of optimal dps/hps, the new skill has internal tensions built in to make it a good choice at the correct time, not all the time. Dps/hps of the class, when fully traited out, should be as high or higher then it was before. The "loss" of Calming Verse should ideally feel more liberating then anything.

Consider:
Do I pop CV before I use a big EC, or wait to see if it pulls aggro?
Do I pop CV before using "That Which does Not Kill Us" for the power cost reduction, or save it in case I pull aggro?
Do I pop it while moving to a new place to stand and heal to use a few MV's on the move, or do I save it in case I pull aggro later?
Is the attunement reduction worth the benefits at this point in the fight?
Etc.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

As mentioned by other people in this thread, try to think of the new Calming Verse as a fully different skill with different ways to use it optimally. While the old skill needed to be used every time it was off cooldown and was a hefty source of optimal dps/hps, the new skill has internal tensions built in to make it a good choice at the correct time, not all the time. Dps/hps of the class, when fully traited out, should be as high or higher then it was before. The "loss" of Calming Verse should ideally feel more liberating then anything.

Consider:
Do I pop CV before I use a big EC, or wait to see if it pulls aggro?
Do I pop CV before using "That Which does Not Kill Us" for the power cost reduction, or save it in case I pull aggro?
Do I pop it while moving to a new place to stand and heal to use a few MV's on the move, or do I save it in case I pull aggro later?
Is the attunement reduction worth the benefits at this point in the fight?
Etc.

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Agree with you. Its nice to have an Oh **** skill ;)
Also I was wondering Zombie, could you maybe remove the damage knockback for Rousing Words?
Because its really annoying when you are trying to use it to heal, and some mob comes over and whacks you, screwing the whole skill. The "No threat Generated" for it is useless in the moors also.

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Agree with you. Its nice to have an Oh **** skill

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Except if -25% temporary threat saves you, you would have never pulled aggro to begin with on live due to being down 25% (healing traited) already, or 20% dps traited.

Yes, I totally agree that the new CV is a much more fun, active, ability, but is there any overall gain if the loss of near passive threat reduction causes us to stand around twiddling our thumbs doing nothing waiting for tank threat instead?

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Originally Posted by Nathandir

Agree with you. Its nice to have an Oh **** skill ;)
Also I was wondering Zombie, could you maybe remove the damage knockback for Rousing Words?
Because its really annoying when you are trying to use it to heal, and some mob comes over and whacks you, screwing the whole skill. The "No threat Generated" for it is useless in the moors also.

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Fates Entwined ftw. No knockback on inductions and the 5 set healing bonus from ToO gear is epic with Fates Entwined.

And ZC I currently extremely happy with the changes, sounds amazing. Affinity changes seems sketchy but like you said its just something we will have to adapt to using. One issue is how do we change affinity when out of combat? Fire damage protection is crucial in the moors and I don't know how I'll be able to have fire affinity up at all times while traiting lightning. Seems a bit extreme to try to kill something with a fire skill at the end to be able to put up Do Not Fall to Fire for pre-combat later.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

As mentioned by other people in this thread, try to think of the new Calming Verse as a fully different skill with different ways to use it optimally. While the old skill needed to be used every time it was off cooldown and was a hefty source of optimal dps/hps, the new skill has internal tensions built in to make it a good choice at the correct time, not all the time. Dps/hps of the class, when fully traited out, should be as high or higher then it was before. The "loss" of Calming Verse should ideally feel more liberating then anything.

Consider:
Do I pop CV before I use a big EC, or wait to see if it pulls aggro?
Do I pop CV before using "That Which does Not Kill Us" for the power cost reduction, or save it in case I pull aggro?
Do I pop it while moving to a new place to stand and heal to use a few MV's on the move, or do I save it in case I pull aggro later?
Is the attunement reduction worth the benefits at this point in the fight?
Etc.

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Sorry.Not buying it.This is not better than it is now.Too many unnecessary changes.All I'm seeing is RK gets worse and worse with every update.RK lightning was so nerfed after Isengard that I stopped playing for a month.The only thing I like is the run speed buff it gives but only 10 sec ? And you wait for a minute to use it again.Minstrel has a run speed buff for 10 sec.Does that work if you get aggro or trying to run away in ettens ? 10 second is nothing.And I don't understand why rk is still a premium class.Not the best dps,not the best healer.No survival skills.Power consumption issues (with this update).Light armour without solid threat management.I used to love my rk more than anything.That's why I'm always complaining.That's what players do.Your favourite class gets worse and worse over time.You gotta say something.

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Originally Posted by viper0889

Fates Entwined ftw. No knockback on inductions and the 5 set healing bonus from ToO gear is epic with Fates Entwined.

And ZC I currently extremely happy with the changes, sounds amazing. Affinity changes seems sketchy but like you said its just something we will have to adapt to using. One issue is how do we change affinity when out of combat? Fire damage protection is crucial in the moors and I don't know how I'll be able to have fire affinity up at all times while traiting lightning. Seems a bit extreme to try to kill something with a fire skill at the end to be able to put up Do Not Fall to Fire for pre-combat later.

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Carli you are one of the only other RKs that has brought this up. I would have said it exctly as you did. I think solo RKs in the moors are such a small percentage of the player base, and then it's an even smaller segment of the creep population that this really effects us against. It's not changing.

Instant writs and free writs are going to be our friend out there, maybe a stun, CV for run buff, WoF, and a quick DNFtF, dunno how it's all going to work out, surviving that inital burst is going to be key, especially the charging reaver, maybe we'll just have to make sure we always fire first :). Going to be tricky either way. And yeah, BAs at range, uggh.

How often do we get to square up for the 1v1 you know is coming. Almost always getting jumped or plinked from behind anyway and they wait till it's down in that case. Gonna be a big change against those 2.

I'd really prefer some non-combat-starting methods of changing to each of the various affinities. ; every time I'm starting a combat I like to have the right preventatives up, but also I know that T2, the longer I spend attuning, the worse things are, I can't just afford to switch at the start of a pull.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

As mentioned by other people in this thread, try to think of the new Calming Verse as a fully different skill with different ways to use it optimally. While the old skill needed to be used every time it was off cooldown and was a hefty source of optimal dps/hps, the new skill has internal tensions built in to make it a good choice at the correct time, not all the time. Dps/hps of the class, when fully traited out, should be as high or higher then it was before. The "loss" of Calming Verse should ideally feel more liberating then anything.

Consider:
Do I pop CV before I use a big EC, or wait to see if it pulls aggro?
Do I pop CV before using "That Which does Not Kill Us" for the power cost reduction, or save it in case I pull aggro?
Do I pop it while moving to a new place to stand and heal to use a few MV's on the move, or do I save it in case I pull aggro later?
Is the attunement reduction worth the benefits at this point in the fight?
Etc.

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I agree. This would have been soooo handy in say, OD Fear Wing with the Balrog. It also will be handy in lightening wing ToO... and Saruman, and really any instance where you have to keep moving. One of the bigger challenges in learning new raids is groups learning how to move and position -- so some groups tend to move A LOT when in that learning period. With essentially 1 true heal-on-the-run skill you either choose between lagging behind the group to keep sufficient heals on the tank or not getting enough heals on the tank. This is gonna make it a lot more seamless.

And the question of Do I Pop it before or wait and see if I pull aggro... well the answer IMO should be -- if you think you're gonna pull aggro pop it before. No need to risk getting smacked in the face. lol.

For all OP's inability to format his complaints well, he has a point I'm still not clear on.

How is this change not severely affecting an RK's ability to not draw aggro? If the answer is "you just have to damage/heal less" that's not going to work.

Post #2 alluded to "25% reduction in perceived threat" as an immediate reduction of your threat on the threat table (say 1000 to 750), as opposed to the current behavior which is "healing / damage done generates less threat while the skill is active" (say 1000+80 instead of 1000+100 without CV). Is that right?

Lets take 2 situations that should help clearly explain how perceived threat works and how this change to CV will play out if not changed:

RK does 10 1k hits over 20 seconds. In the first situation, you use CV before you start doing damage. In the second situation, you use it 10 seconds in.

Current Calming Verse (-20% threat generated, 1m duration), Situation 1:
1k (800 threat)
1k (1600 threat)
1k (2400 threat)
1k (3200 threat)
...
1k (8000 threat)

Situation 2:
1k (1k threat)
1k (2k threat)
1k (3k threat)
1k (4k threat)
1k (5k threat)
CV used
1k (5800 threat)
1k (6600 threat)
1k (7400 threat)
1k (8200 threat)
1k (9000 threat)

Now let's compare to the way calming verse is currently being implemented on BR (-25% perceived threat for 10s):
Situation 1, CV used before doing damage:
1k (750 perceived threat)
1k (1500 perceived threat)
1k (2250 perceived threat)
1k (3000 perceived threat)
1k (3750 perceived threat)
CV buff drops
1k (6000 threat)
1k (7000 threat)
1k (8000 threat)
1k (9000 threat)
1k (10000 threat)

Situation 2, CV used 10s in:
1k (1000 threat)
1k (2000 threat)
1k (3000 threat)
1k (4000 threat)
1k (5000 threat)
CV used
1k (4500 perceived threat)
1k (5250 perceived threat)
1k (6000 perceived threat)
1k (6750 perceived threat)
1k (7500 perceived threat)
Immediately after this duration, you're back at 10k threat.

This is VERY CLEARLY a nerf to our aggro management. Anyone who follows our forums knows I'm not one to appeal to emotional arguments either way, but this is something I really would like ZC to address. We're still the squishiest class around, taking away a permanent 20% aggro management really should be addressed. If all you did was post to say that you're aware you've taken this away and that's how you'd like RKs to be moving forward, okay then I guess. I'm just hoping this is an oversight. :P

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Originally Posted by Nakiami

How is this change not severely affecting an RK's ability to not draw aggro? If the answer is "you just have to damage/heal less" that's not going to work.

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This. We need something to replace the -20% threat generation we previously had from Calming Verse.

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Originally Posted by choon_blaze

Sorry.Not buying it.This is not better than it is now.Too many unnecessary changes.All I'm seeing is RK gets worse and worse with every update.RK lightning was so nerfed after Isengard that I stopped playing for a month.The only thing I like is the run speed buff it gives but only 10 sec ? And you wait for a minute to use it again.Minstrel has a run speed buff for 10 sec.Does that work if you get aggro or trying to run away in ettens ? 10 second is nothing.And I don't understand why rk is still a premium class.Not the best dps,not the best healer.No survival skills.Power consumption issues (with this update).Light armour without solid threat management.I used to love my rk more than anything.That's why I'm always complaining.That's what players do.Your favourite class gets worse and worse over time.You gotta say something.

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I realize this is kind of off-topic, but every single one of your posts in the forums was a negative post. Do you come here just to troll people, or do you really just see the bad side of everything? Either way there doesn't seem to be a point to hold a conversation with you about this as you're just going to say "No, this is bad" no matter what. At least the other ones who don't like this change put forth their arguments in a concise manner and seem willing to listen to other opinions.

ZC, on the subject of affinity... I know you said you made the change to this as opposed to consumables to take up less inventory... but can we get some kind of consumable/perma-clickie to change affinity in addition to the affinity changing based on the last skill?

I'm not trolling.I'm negative because a good skill is getting nerfed.I'm posting to forum when I see something wrong,that's usually negative.I'm not gonna say 'hey thanks for the nerf,well done'.Anyways I hope my negative comments won't cause rk to be nerfed even more :) I just don't know how to cheerfully say 'Do not nerf rk anymore !!'

Let's say the RK puts out 100 dps the way he is now, before Update 6. This dps is achieve ONLY by clicking CV every 1:00 and requiring the linod traits to be slotted.
Then lets say after Update 6 he still puts out 100 dps with the various changes that he's received. In addition, the CV is instead used as an aggro drop/power reducer/trait specific ultility once a minute. And the two linod traits have different bonuses on them.

Would it then be fair to say that CV has been nerfed? Yes. The skill is clearly weaker.
Do I claim the the class is more potent then before? Yes. DPS is preserved and extra utility is gained.
Do I also claim that a 25% threat drop once a minute will help RK's out more then a flat threat reduction? Again, yes.

So, do I think I nerfed the RK? Not at all.

Draw you own conclusions. Play with the class. I hope I'm right. I hope it's much more fun :)

I definitely agree you've made the RK more potent and honestly I'm so flippin excited about U6 I don't even know how to express it without sounding like a flaming fanboy.

That said, I disagree with you that 10s of 25% reduced threat is going to be more useful for RKs than a permanent 20% reduction to generated threat. I am aware that the change to CV (and thus the way we trait) is more meaningful than 10s of 25% reduced perceived threat, and couldn't provide an objective opinion of whether pre U6 CV is better than post U6 CV. However, if all you take into consideration is the difference in how RKs will manage aggro pre and post U6, I'd much much much prefer the pre U6 permanent threat reduction than temporary threat drop of post U6. I also don't really know how much you changed the magnitude of the threat drop from distracting winds, though I know it's pitiful on live right now.

For what it's worth though, I hope you're right too :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ghosttaker

Carli you are one of the only other RKs that has brought this up. I would have said it exctly as you did. I think solo RKs in the moors are such a small percentage of the player base, and then it's an even smaller segment of the creep population that this really effects us against. It's not changing.

Instant writs and free writs are going to be our friend out there, maybe a stun, CV for run buff, WoF, and a quick DNFtF, dunno how it's all going to work out, surviving that inital burst is going to be key, especially the charging reaver, maybe we'll just have to make sure we always fire first :). Going to be tricky either way. And yeah, BAs at range, uggh.

How often do we get to square up for the 1v1 you know is coming. Almost always getting jumped or plinked from behind anyway and they wait till it's down in that case. Gonna be a big change against those 2.

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Lets look at what DNFtF is good against in the moors. Defilers, BAs, Reavers, Oil at keep entrances. Fire protection is so important in the moors. DNFtF adds a significant amount of survivability out there and without a reliable way to have this buff on myself I will feel much more vulnerable. Absorbing an entire VT initial damage or reaver ravage and added mitigation buff...

Also, you ask how often do you get to square up for a 1v1. RM has many 1v1 circles. Against a good reaver or BA DNFtf is win or lose. Even for PVE content dpsing I'd much rather have a way to pick my DNFtX out of combat. I don't like the idea of being forced to put as much or more effort into buffs and protections when I thought part of this update was to make quality of life changes. Aka Blade Will not Wound/Fang Will not Poison wrapped into one.

Anyways, Im barking up the wrong thread with the affinity stuff and talking about the moors which is appearantly a no no when talking about changes for pve-based game.

Which type of threat management tool is more useful is completely dependent on what amount of threat tanks are capable of generating.

A hypothetical RK does 100 dps. That is 80 tps (threat per sec) on live and 100 tps in U6.

If tanks do a hypothetical 150 tps, then the passive live reduction isn't really doing anything, and the extra emergency tool + utility will be much more useful.

However lets say the tank can only output 85 tps. The RK on live could keep doing his 100 dps but in U6 it would be impossible.

But CV is not an aggro drop, it just lowers threat generated by skills in those 10 seconds, so you have 10s of less aggro but after CV goes away you have roughly the same amount of threat.

There still seems to be some confusion on how perceived threat works. If you've built up 20k worth of damage threat then pop CV, you will be on the target's aggro table as if you'd done 15k damage worth of threat. Any damage you do during the 10s will still add to your threat, but will be modified by that 25% for the 10s duration of CV. Once the 10s has passed, you will be back to 20k + the full amount of any damage you did during CV.

To put it even more simply, all CV will do is reduce your perceived threat for 10s (just like it says, funny huh :P). Once the 10s is up, it will be as if you never used any kind of aggro management skill in the first place, assuming you did nothing else to reduce aggro (distracting winds, mystifying flame, die, etc).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ellery01

There still seems to be some confusion on how perceived threat works. If you've built up 20k worth of damage threat then pop CV, you will be on the target's aggro table as if you'd done 15k damage worth of threat. Any damage you do during the 10s will still add to your threat, but will be modified by that 25% for the 10s duration of CV. Once the 10s has passed, you will be back to 20k + the full amount of any damage you did during CV.

To put it even more simply, all CV will do is reduce your perceived threat for 10s (just like it says, funny huh :P). Once the 10s is up, it will be as if you never used any kind of aggro management skill in the first place, assuming you did nothing else to reduce aggro (distracting winds, mystifying flame, die, etc).

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thats pretty much how I understand it too. The important thing you left out though is application, you apply this reduction in the hopes that the tank or someone else will supplant you on the threat list. This goes for healing too, as its just as threatening to mobs. So yes its a temp reduction, the hope is that someone else becomes more threatening within the 10s

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viper0889

Lets look at what DNFtF is good against in the moors. Defilers, BAs, Reavers, Oil at keep entrances. Fire protection is so important in the moors. DNFtF adds a significant amount of survivability out there and without a reliable way to have this buff on myself I will feel much more vulnerable. Absorbing an entire VT initial damage or reaver ravage and added mitigation buff...

Also, you ask how often do you get to square up for a 1v1. RM has many 1v1 circles. Against a good reaver or BA DNFtf is win or lose. Even for PVE content dpsing I'd much rather have a way to pick my DNFtX out of combat. I don't like the idea of being forced to put as much or more effort into buffs and protections when I thought part of this update was to make quality of life changes. Aka Blade Will not Wound/Fang Will not Poison wrapped into one.

Anyways, Im barking up the wrong thread with the affinity stuff and talking about the moors which is appearantly a no no when talking about changes for pve-based game.

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Caril I am with you on the moors implications, 100%. On your server that's awesome, Silverlode pvp is not that way, the server has been decimated by transfers, hardly ever any 1v1 circles. Maybe I'm just trying to make myself feel better about it but also I'm looking at the bright side of some of the survivability stuff. But I am on the same page as you. I just don't see alot of other RKs out there in the moors who do like to run around solo. I do, all the time, and the first thought I had when I saw the affinity change was omg we're sc%^&ed against BAs and Reavers in solo fights. Also why I made the comment maybe we always have to be the ones to fire first, WoF and a quick DNF before the reaver can get to you, I don't know. Definitely going to change how we fight out there.

Zombie please respond,

many rk's, myself included, feel that we are gonna struggle in the moors with many of these changes, I like many rk's like to try to solo, but honestly, it's not doable anymore, not with bought skills (which i don't think you have any control over) please, can you give us a moors skill, a skill designed soley for the moors. brands have changed to include slow prevention as i'm sure you're aware and bought in-combat brands just destroy us. I never see Malarick soloing out there anymore, not on his RK...... in fact, i think i'm the last dogged RK soloer on brandywine now...... we have fallen so far.
would you consider a skill for RK's, a moors skill, something to make the creeps stop making crude jokes about our class?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by loki84

Zombie please respond,

many rk's, myself included, feel that we are gonna struggle in the moors with many of these changes, I like many rk's like to try to solo, but honestly, it's not doable anymore, not with bought skills (which i don't think you have any control over) please, can you give us a moors skill, a skill designed soley for the moors. brands have changed to include slow prevention as i'm sure you're aware and bought in-combat brands just destroy us. I never see Malarick soloing out there anymore, not on his RK...... in fact, i think i'm the last dogged RK soloer on brandywine now...... we have fallen so far.
would you consider a skill for RK's, a moors skill, something to make the creeps stop making crude jokes about our class?

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It´s true, CC has been made nearly useless with Audacity and Store Brands

However Zombie has given us tools to deal with it, Writs on the move, new Steady Hands, Essence of Winter without Induction

Consider using a Lvl 75 2nd Age Moors Satchel, you´ll be able to use all relevant damage Legacys, Writ of Health Healing and level your THR to 32
That will provide quite a bit of self healing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by loki84

Zombie please respond,

many rk's, myself included, feel that we are gonna struggle in the moors with many of these changes, I like many rk's like to try to solo, but honestly, it's not doable anymore, not with bought skills (which i don't think you have any control over) please, can you give us a moors skill, a skill designed soley for the moors. brands have changed to include slow prevention as i'm sure you're aware and bought in-combat brands just destroy us. I never see Malarick soloing out there anymore, not on his RK...... in fact, i think i'm the last dogged RK soloer on brandywine now...... we have fallen so far.
would you consider a skill for RK's, a moors skill, something to make the creeps stop making crude jokes about our class?

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A skill to make creeps from making jokes about the class? Thats a new one, good presentation I like it.

1. Calming Verse increases movement speed by 20%.

Thats a moors skill buff
2. +3% lightning and frost damage for each Solitary Thunder trait equipped

the trait set bonus's to damage for lightening have increased to a total max of +7% (old bonus was +2% for each one slotted)

3. Winter Storm – Each use of a Frost skill stacks a tier winter-Storm buff on you. When at 5, your next lightning skill is an automatic crit. Passively provides -2s Writ of Cold cooldown.

We can now get an automatic crit. Add that to the bonus and your dev crit chances have gone up a lot.

So what exactly do you want that is moors specific? The lightening line has been upped for damage, creeps arent laughing at the 5k Epic conclusion crits....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thorgrum

A skill to make creeps from making jokes about the class? Thats a new one, good presentation I like it.
1. Calming Verse increases movement speed by 20%.
Thats a moors skill buff
2. +3% lightning and frost damage for each Solitary Thunder trait equipped
he trait set bonus's to damage for lightening have increased to a total max of +7% (old bonus was +2% for each
3. Winter Storm – Each use of a Frost skill stacks a tier winter-Storm buff on you. When at 5, your next lightning skill is an automatic crit. Passively provides -2s Writ of Cold cooldown.

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The above mentioned changes are good for a moors RK. There are however a few questions regarding those :

1. Is it a 20% movement speed regardess of the movement speed debuffs on you ? A RK being the easiest target in moors to zerg will have some sort of movement debuffs on them in every fight. The slow debuff applied by every creep class is either greater than or equal to 20%. If its a 20% speed increase after the debuffs on us, the RK will still be moving slower than at normal speed. In fights where we can apply a slow of our own this wouldn't be a problem. But against wargs that pop brands before the pounce or against pay to win creeps that use in-combat store brands ( convenience not advantage - LOL ), the skill will have very little use except dropping attunement.

2. The DPS increase is good.

3. If the fight lasts that long, its a RK win ( I am talking about solo play ).

The biggest buff for the RK class with this update is that the fights will be longer. While the RK is at a disadvantage at the start of any fight, a longer fight will mean that RK will have higher % of hits at full attunement.

What I would like to see addressed ( moors specific ) is to see a counter skill to knockdowns and to see a skill that can counter/mitigate ranged attacks.

Another concern is that DNFTF was THE biggest defensive skill for a RK in moors. do not fall to storm/frost is useless in moors. Almost all PvP fights will end with a lighting skill. So basically we will be stuck with do not fall to storm at the start of a fight. That will have a huge impact on the survivability of a RK.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AceDwarf

The above mentioned changes are good for a moors RK. There are however a few questions regarding those :

1. Is it a 20% movement speed regardess of the movement speed debuffs on you ? A RK being the easiest target in moors to zerg will have some sort of movement debuffs on them in every fight. The slow debuff applied by every creep class is either greater than or equal to 20%. If its a 20% speed increase after the debuffs on us, the RK will still be moving slower than at normal speed. In fights where we can apply a slow of our own this wouldn't be a problem. But against wargs that pop brands before the pounce or against pay to win creeps that use in-combat store brands ( convenience not advantage - LOL ), the skill will have very little use except dropping attunement.

2. The DPS increase is good.

3. If the fight lasts that long, its a RK win ( I am talking about solo play ).

The biggest buff for the RK class with this update is that the fights will be longer. While the RK is at a disadvantage at the start of any fight, a longer fight will mean that RK will have higher % of hits at full attunement.

What I would like to see addressed ( moors specific ) is to see a counter skill to knockdowns and to see a skill that can counter/mitigate ranged attacks.

Another concern is that DNFTF was THE biggest defensive skill for a RK in moors. do not fall to storm/frost is useless in moors. Almost all PvP fights will end with a lighting skill. So basically we will be stuck with do not fall to storm at the start of a fight. That will have a huge impact on the survivability of a RK.

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Loosing dnftf is big I won’t deny that, even dnftl you got a tactical mitigation boost so I wouldn’t call it useless. That doesn’t negate your point that dnftf was a great defensive skill. However it’s been replaced largely with martial training because its giving us a morale boost, armor boost and tact mit boost. If I net the loss of dnftf to the new martial training it’s a wash (lost damage on martial training otherwise it would have been a buff).

I don’t know the answer to the slows, I’d be guessing but regardless its +20% run speed you didn’t have before. Audacity is supposed to decrease the damage taken, so the fights last longer. This is an indirect buff to the RK as you pointed out, the longer the fight the better for us. It’s not a perfect update for the moors centric RK, but there are some nice things in there.

Running 7 in the solitary thunder line with good gear and the right traits that RK is going to be formidable. We will probably see 10k morale Rk’s out in the moors before level cap increase due to martial training and the +2 virtue cap increase (another buff for free side players).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thorgrum

If I net the loss of dnftf to the new martial training it’s a wash (lost damage on martial training otherwise it would have been a buff).

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What are the new stats on martial training ? I read in the notes that it is receiving a boost. Some numbers would help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AceDwarf

What are the new stats on martial training ? I read in the notes that it is receiving a boost. Some numbers would help.

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+563 armor value
+1500 crit defense
+1096 morale
+726 power
+105 in combat power regen

Source: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?447468-For-the-Healing-RK-s

First page has the pics from bullroarer martial training is in the middle.

I hate being the guy who points out problems without a solution so......the easiest fix for this would be imo (which could be completely wrong) just one instant zero attunement fire skill, something we could start a fight with and put it up quick. Maybe make WoF an instant. Might be Op and stupid but it SEEMS like it's an easy way to fix the attunement issue if someone deemed it needing fixing. I say instant because I think it's unfair gameplay and not realistic to think that BAs and Reavers are going to wait for you to cast that writ, nor should anyone ever let the enemy take initiative if they can. Right or wrong I thought about a solution.

Overall though I look at it as a challenge, we're going to have to change the way we fight out there, bottom line. The store brands etc. are ridiculous now so that's the same. I also miss the days when I was tracked and actually knew what it was that was tracking me. I'm looking forward to seeing how quickly I can get a T3 WoH on myself, with a pot somewhere in there and make someone's eyes bulge because they thought they had me and now I'm suddenly at full health, fully attuned, their brand is down and I've got 4 stuns and my big hits coming at them. It might not work but let's be honest....for the RKs who solo, is there anyone out there you felt you couldn't beat one on one? Even if you lost did you leave thinking you were the one that lost it versus them beating you, or they got a lucky crit, or something you threw missed? Be nice to not know what's going to happen for a change. I'm not saying anything about creeps, I'm saying that if you know how to play this class well you know what it can do, you have an answer for everything the enemy can throw at you.

We could end up having a ton more fun out there.

And yeah, L75 2nd Age bag with WoH on it and L75 1st Age with Healing over Time on it is what I am currently working on. Be interesting to see what that ticks for in combat while we're fully damage attuned.

I was testing rk in bullroarer and the 10 second buff with 1 minute cooldown is really silly.Make it 20 second with 1 minute cooldown or 10 second with 30 second cooldown please.And martial training gives 683 morale in bullroarer.

A duration increase or cd decrease would be great. Even a legacy for this skill would be great.

Btw, anyone tested if it is a set run speed (like champ's sprint, guard's brutal charge) or just a regular run speed when lightning traited?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thorgrum

+563 armor value
+1500 crit defense
+1096 morale
+726 power
+105 in combat power regen

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Actually current build (as I am seeing it traited right now on BR is only 658 morale, 484 power.

I am also finding the new calming verse rather awkward, at least when solo. When you are traited fire, the two skills you mainly want to use it for are Essence of Flame and Scathing Mockery, because the inductions are relatively long and easily interrupted. FR is already not interruptable and WoF is so short that it doesn't get interrupted. I suppose you might also want to use it when IoEF is up so you can get that off and then follow with EoF/SM. EoF and SM require 6 and 9 attunement respectively. Solo, if wait until 9 attunement to use CV, you can still use EoF...if the mob isn't dead already (which it most often is). You could use it on a newly pulled mob if the first one is dead, but then it will not have WoF tiered up and it won't be very hard hitting. Use it before you are at 9 attunement and chances are you will be spamming FR until you have enough attunement (WoF and MF will probably already be on the mob since you already had to get attunement).

To use SM after calming verse, you need to use 3 skills. Maybe EoF, FR, WoF...so about 4.5 seconds into the 10 second buff...Again, unless you have pulled a lot of mobs, the mobs are dead by that time. I am finding that solo traited fire, I am almost never using CV. I probably use it most hitting it out of habit before starting the pull =/

It should be better in groups, allowing you to get AoE attacks off without interruption...but in groups, in theory at least, you are usually not being interrupted...

Traited lightning it is much easier to use because a 25% run speed buff is always useful for kiting, so the problem is more that it isn't available often enough than that you can't use it effectively.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Then lets say after Update 6 he still puts out 100 dps with the various changes that he's received. In addition, the CV is instead used as an aggro drop

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So it's an actual aggro drop, really losing you aggro instead of just briefly supressing it?

If so, that helps a lot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ghosttaker

I hate being the guy who points out problems without a solution so......the easiest fix for this would be imo (which could be completely wrong) just one instant zero attunement fire skill, something we could start a fight with and put it up quick. Maybe make WoF an instant. Might be Op and stupid but it SEEMS like it's an easy way to fix the attunement issue if someone deemed it needing fixing. I say instant because I think it's unfair gameplay and not realistic to think that BAs and Reavers are going to wait for you to cast that writ, nor should anyone ever let the enemy take initiative if they can. Right or wrong I thought about a solution.

let's be honest....for the RKs who solo, is there anyone out there you felt you couldn't beat one on one? Even if you lost did you leave thinking you were the one that lost it versus them beating you, or they got a lucky crit, or something you threw missed? Be nice to not know what's going to happen for a change. I'm not saying anything about creeps, I'm saying that if you know how to play this class well you know what it can do, you have an answer for everything the enemy can throw at you.

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no time to induct anything in a fight as an rk, if you're remaining still to induct, you're gonna die horribly. also if you're inducting something it should be chilling rhetoric. sadly chilling rhetoric only slows 50% now

snoopy, r14 warg that likes to target me cause he can kill me before i stand up from the knockdown, if it's a stun or he doesn't kill me...... he hipses, and jumps me again..... this time i have no pot, usually when using an enamel i can get to 5 attunement before i'm dead, if i use elf parry it increases to 6, but it is VERY rare that i actually get to cast perfect imagery, though even if i did, he has a pot and a brand and a store brand to deal with that, once or twice on a hunch i popped my brand just as he jumped me, he bled me up then he hipsed, waited 1 minute (also letting my attunement drop back to 0) and jumped me again with his own brand up...... i died horribly.

that's when he's alone, usually he has friends with him.

i won't take anything away from snoopy, he is far and away the most skilled warg i've seen. but even geared the best i possibly can be, i can't defeat him 1v1, he won't even try to fight me in 1v1 circles, cause bein an rk against a warg that rank..... i'm beneath him, and it'd make him look bad to be sparring me and getting free infamy.
^btw it hurts to say this, my Ego is fairly large, but in the interest of honesty, and the hope of zombie payin attention i'm relating this

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AkhorahilEvernight

So it's an actual aggro drop, really losing you aggro instead of just briefly supressing it?

If so, that helps a lot.

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+ZC Can you discuss how threat and perceived threat work?

Your posts on the matter do not seem consistent.

And if its an aggro drop? Why does it have a duration?...

All in all the changes to this skill have left me generally confused.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by loki84

no time to induct anything in a fight as an rk, if you're remaining still to induct, you're gonna die horribly. also if you're inducting something it should be chilling rhetoric. sadly chilling rhetoric only slows 50% now

snoopy, r14 warg that likes to target me cause he can kill me before i stand up from the knockdown, if it's a stun or he doesn't kill me...... he hipses, and jumps me again..... this time i have no pot, usually when using an enamel i can get to 5 attunement before i'm dead, if i use elf parry it increases to 6, but it is VERY rare that i actually get to cast perfect imagery, though even if i did, he has a pot and a brand and a store brand to deal with that, once or twice on a hunch i popped my brand just as he jumped me, he bled me up then he hipsed, waited 1 minute (also letting my attunement drop back to 0) and jumped me again with his own brand up...... i died horribly.

that's when he's alone, usually he has friends with him.

i won't take anything away from snoopy, he is far and away the most skilled warg i've seen. but even geared the best i possibly can be, i can't defeat him 1v1, he won't even try to fight me in 1v1 circles, cause bein an rk against a warg that rank..... i'm beneath him, and it'd make him look bad to be sparring me and getting free infamy.
^btw it hurts to say this, my Ego is fairly large, but in the interest of honesty, and the hope of zombie payin attention i'm relating this

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So there's ONE R14 Warg who can kill you every 10 minutes who also likes to make sure he gets the kill by bringing friends most of the time? 500-600 more morale should help that and what are you doing for that one minute while you're waiting for him to get his brand back up? If someone needs to use store brands to beat you take it as a compliment. I'm not exactly sure what you are responding to in my post and I am also not arguing with you. There are those people on every server. We're squishy and we're actually getting things to help with this in the way of decreased CC and damage, and increase morale. It might stink, it might be awesome, we just don' know yet. I'd debate you all day though if you told me after U6 you would not be more survivable against that warg though.

Store brands are killing the moors btw. That brand should be changed, not our skills though imo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crell_1

+ZC Can you discuss how threat and perceived threat work?

Your posts on the matter do not seem consistent.

And if its an aggro drop? Why does it have a duration?...

All in all the changes to this skill have left me generally confused.

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Perceived threat changes only change current perceived threat.

Example: You have 1000 threat, the tank has 900. You use CV and you will be "perceived" as having 750 threat. The monster will wander back to the tank, who hopefully hits it a few times before 10 seconds is over. At the end of the duration, your threat goes back up to 1000 (plus whatever additional damage you've done.)

In other words, it's changed from a proactive skill that was completely incapable of helping once a monster started attacking you, to a reactive skill that can be used if you pull too much aggro to save your hide. It, plus the increases in tank threat gains we've added since RoI should make RK's feel a lot safer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Perceived threat changes only change current perceived threat.

Example: You have 1000 threat, the tank has 900. You use CV and you will be "perceived" as having 750 threat. The monster will wander back to the tank, who hopefully hits it a few times before 10 seconds is over. At the end of the duration, your threat goes back up to 1000 (plus whatever additional damage you've done.)

In other words, it's changed from a proactive skill that was completely incapable of helping once a monster started attacking you, to a reactive skill that can be used if you pull too much aggro to save your hide. It, plus the increases in tank threat gains we've added since RoI should make RK's feel a lot safer.

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The problem with temporary perceived threat drops is that they are nearly always useless (see Beneath Notice). As an example, Hunter overextends/doesn't pay attention that tank is stunned and pulls mob. If said mob is trash they just continue to pew pew until it is dead, if it is the boss they use beneath notice. The boss then finishes up wha tit is doing on the hunter then begins to wander back to the tank. Now hunters are usually a good way away from the tank so the tank has a choice:

1) Do I run over to the hunter and scatter everything else I have on me, some of which are ranged and will cause havoc if I get them out of postion?

2) Wait for the boss to come back to me by which time the perceived threat reduction has worn off and he turns back to the hunter.

If the later is the better choice, one of two things will happen:

A) The hunter tanks the boss in which case there was no real need to have a tank on him in the first place.

B) Hunter dies and then their threat is set to 0 and the boss returns to the tank.

Now if you put RK in place of Hunter in this situation B) will happen more often than not.

I know you can make a PT reduction mechanic work, but RK's will need a skill similar to Endurance/QS (or whichever it is) that generates 0 threat or actually reduces threat to cooperate with the tank. I don't see that that kind of functionality was added in to the RK repertoire.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Azerog

The problem with temporary perceived threat drops is that they are nearly always useless (see Beneath Notice). As an example, Hunter overextends/doesn't pay attention that tank is stunned and pulls mob. If said mob is trash they just continue to pew pew until it is dead, if it is the boss they use beneath notice. The boss then finishes up wha tit is doing on the hunter then begins to wander back to the tank. Now hunters are usually a good way away from the tank so the tank has a choice:

1) Do I run over to the hunter and scatter everything else I have on me, some of which are ranged and will cause havoc if I get them out of postion?

2) Wait for the boss to come back to me by which time the perceived threat reduction has worn off and he turns back to the hunter.

If the later is the better choice, one of two things will happen:

A) The hunter tanks the boss in which case there was no real need to have a tank on him in the first place.

B) Hunter dies and then their threat is set to 0 and the boss returns to the tank.

Now if you put RK in place of Hunter in this situation B) will happen more often than not.

I know you can make a PT reduction mechanic work, but RK's will need a skill similar to Endurance/QS (or whichever it is) that generates 0 threat or actually reduces threat to cooperate with the tank. I don't see that that kind of functionality was added in to the RK repertoire.

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Well that’s part of the group dynamic isnt it? I mean do we want them to make it so simple that a push of a button resets the threat? RK’s and hunters have to manage threat, that’s part of the price for high DPS. CV is okay because it reduces the threat temporarily so someone else can increase theirs and supplant the RK on the threat list. That’s a good thing, not useless. Now 10 seconds, is that enough? I don’t think so but the goal is to drop threat so someone else can pick it up, that will help RK’s survive raids.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thorgrum

Well that’s part of the group dynamic isnt it? I mean do we want them to make it so simple that a push of a button resets the threat? RK’s and hunters have to manage threat, that’s part of the price for high DPS. CV is okay because it reduces the threat temporarily so someone else can increase theirs and supplant the RK on the threat list. That’s a good thing, not useless. Now 10 seconds, is that enough? I don’t think so but the goal is to drop threat so someone else can pick it up, that will help RK’s survive raids.

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Yeah, increasing the duration would help. I just see so many problems with high DPS build hunters that strip threat and the bouncing back and forth of the boss just leads to sloppiness.

Temporary PT reductions are significantly less valuable than actual threat reductions, and I just don't see this implementation of calming verse being any more valuable in threat reduction than the current implementation.

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Originally Posted by Azerog

Yeah, increasing the duration would help. I just see so many problems with high DPS build hunters that strip threat and the bouncing back and forth of the boss just leads to sloppiness.

Temporary PT reductions are significantly less valuable than actual threat reductions, and I just don't see this implementation of calming verse being any more valuable in threat reduction than the current implementation.

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Indeed you are a correct. However what’s the genesis of the issue you are discussing? You have accurately defined a situation that occurs regularly but not the cause. If the cause is DPS, DPS is a player’s choice based on build and how and when they click the buttons. Aggro management is part of the group dynamic and I understand for a tank it’s a pain in the ###, but the issue, often, comes down to the player behind the DPS.

This mitigates it but it still holds the player accountable. If I crit Epic conclusion on a boss he should find me more threatening, he should run to me to kill me. That’s WAI, I hit the button I built the toon to crit, so now I am given a mechanism to change my choice, temporarily…. I think the middle ground here is to extend the buff, but otherwise I think it’s a good change.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Perceived threat changes only change current perceived threat.

Example: You have 1000 threat, the tank has 900. You use CV and you will be "perceived" as having 750 threat. The monster will wander back to the tank, who hopefully hits it a few times before 10 seconds is over. At the end of the duration, your threat goes back up to 1000 (plus whatever additional damage you've done.)

In other words, it's changed from a proactive skill that was completely incapable of helping once a monster started attacking you, to a reactive skill that can be used if you pull too much aggro to save your hide. It, plus the increases in tank threat gains we've added since RoI should make RK's feel a lot safer.

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I dunno, i have seen RKs getting so many times aggro off awesome (really) tanks, that i´m concerned. In raid fights a DPS can´t get aggro, period, because the raid tends to be over. Hunters have at least a threat reduction stance ... what will be for RKs? (let´s not talk about champions/burglars and their impressive threat management). We also can´t forget that, even with changes, we´re still the squishiest of all classes and getting aggro is more problematic for us.

In anyways, i believe new CV will be better for fellowships, but will be deadly for raids. We already had a skill which dropped our aggro (Distracting Winds), shouldn´t we just buff it up, and still give RKs a threat reduction stance?

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Originally Posted by Thorgrum

Indeed you are a correct. However what’s the genesis of the issue you are discussing? You have accurately defined a situation that occurs regularly but not the cause. If the cause is DPS, DPS is a player’s choice based on build and how and when they click the buttons. Aggro management is part of the group dynamic and I understand for a tank it’s a pain in the ###, but the issue, often, comes down to the player behind the DPS.

This mitigates it but it still holds the player accountable. If I crit Epic conclusion on a boss he should find me more threatening, he should run to me to kill me. That’s WAI, I hit the button I built the toon to crit, so now I am given a mechanism to change my choice, temporarily…. I think the middle ground here is to extend the buff, but otherwise I think it’s a good change.

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True. I'm not advocating an EZ mode button. I just don't like the temporary mechanic, you may think you have things under control and the DPS eases back in and "boom" the mob is gone again.

Part of where I am coming from has been recent experiences on my champ. I got 2 or 3 major upgrades in a week, then we get back in a group with some really good tanks and using the same skill series I then completely pull threat. A champ can deal with that in a number of ways, but hunters tend to be less successful partly due to fighting at range from the tank.

I see this directly analogous to RK's and the new CV mechanic, it is essentially Beneath Notice. The only major difference in the comparison is the need by RK's to build attunement before the harder hitting skills can be used. Maybe a longer duration on CV would be sufficient to get back on top and actually allow the RK to do something other than sit and look pretty while waiting for the tank to get a sufficient lead.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Perceived threat changes only change current perceived threat.

Example: You have 1000 threat, the tank has 900. You use CV and you will be "perceived" as having 750 threat. The monster will wander back to the tank, who hopefully hits it a few times before 10 seconds is over. At the end of the duration, your threat goes back up to 1000 (plus whatever additional damage you've done.)

In other words, it's changed from a proactive skill that was completely incapable of helping once a monster started attacking you, to a reactive skill that can be used if you pull too much aggro to save your hide. It, plus the increases in tank threat gains we've added since RoI should make RK's feel a lot safer.

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-% Percieved threat would be indeed a great addition, if we didn't lose our -20% threat. I think we'll have a lot of aggro problem, and most of the time we'll end up dying because of this change.

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Originally Posted by Bradegor

I dunno, i have seen RKs getting so many times aggro off awesome (really) tanks, that i´m concerned. In raid fights a DPS can´t get aggro, period, because the raid tends to be over. Hunters have at least a threat reduction stance ... what will be for RKs? (let´s not talk about champions/burglars and their impressive threat management). We also can´t forget that, even with changes, we´re still the squishiest of all classes and getting aggro is more problematic for us.

In anyways, i believe new CV will be better for fellowships, but will be deadly for raids. We already had a skill which dropped our aggro (Distracting Winds), shouldn´t we just buff it up, and still give RKs a threat reduction stance?

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To be fair, while hunters do have a stance (endurance) for reducing threat, it's not really a stance you can be in for any length of time unless you want to seriously gimp your DPS. Having seen how ineffective beneath notice is for hunters for the most part, I am not really looking forward to having calming verse function much of the same way.
That said, perhaps we'll all be pleasantly surprised in how effective reducing perceived threat is over reducing actual threat...But I doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Sizzling

To be fair, while hunters do have a stance (endurance) for reducing threat, it's not really a stance you can be in for any length of time unless you want to seriously gimp your DPS. Having seen how ineffective beneath notice is for hunters for the most part, I am not really looking forward to having calming verse function much of the same way.
That said, perhaps we'll all be pleasantly surprised in how effective reducing perceived threat is over reducing actual threat...But I doubt it.

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Well, our hunters use it for some parts of the fight where they need it, and still being able to parse high with it. The problem comes about our only way to lower our threat on such fights is not to DPS at all, ... which goes against the idea of the class. While learning Acid T2 before 1st wave i found myself spamming MF for lowering my aggro as much as possible as our tank had issues on staying alive and generating lots of aggro, we all DPS were warned about the issues of getting aggro off the boss, and hunters still could DPS using endurance.

Probably i´d go for a skill similar to champion one if we dont want to have a -threat stance, but with permanent threat reduction instead of that perceived threat which is really nuts and not much useful except for fellowships. If CV was changed to generate just 50% of the aggro during those 10 seconds, then it would be still way less powerful than nowadays CV but more useful. Oh! and then buff up a bit Distracting Wings so the thread reduced was a bit bigger, or simply give precisely that update 6 CV ability.

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Originally Posted by Thorgrum

Well that’s part of the group dynamic isnt it? I mean do we want them to make it so simple that a push of a button resets the threat? RK’s and hunters have to manage threat, that’s part of the price for high DPS. CV is okay because it reduces the threat temporarily so someone else can increase theirs and supplant the RK on the threat list. That’s a good thing, not useless. Now 10 seconds, is that enough? I don’t think so but the goal is to drop threat so someone else can pick it up, that will help RK’s survive raids.

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Did anyone else just hear that WOW Angry Raid leader guy in their head saying: There is no aggro reset button.

Isn't distracting winds supposed to be the aggro drop? I mean calming verse was a great skill to help prevent large aggro gains and distracting winds for emergencies to drop aggro. It worked great that way, if we are losing the decrease in aggro production can we at least see some extra decrease in aggro production added to chisels/rifflers or traits sets?

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Originally Posted by Thorgrum

Well that’s part of the group dynamic isnt it? I mean do we want them to make it so simple that a push of a button resets the threat? RK’s and hunters have to manage threat, that’s part of the price for high DPS. CV is okay because it reduces the threat temporarily so someone else can increase theirs and supplant the RK on the threat list. That’s a good thing, not useless. Now 10 seconds, is that enough? I don’t think so but the goal is to drop threat so someone else can pick it up, that will help RK’s survive raids.

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I think 10 seconds is plenty long enough if your group is performing like they should. If you grab aggro, move to the tank and pop CV. You let the tank know you have aggro while doing that. The tank should then temporarily focus his threat skills on that target to re-establish the aggro. Doing all of this smoothly, without panic is a sign of good group dynamics. 10 seconds is more than enough time for any tank to get that aggro back and to keep it.

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Originally Posted by Feraxks

I think 10 seconds is plenty long enough if your group is performing like they should. If you grab aggro, move to the tank and pop CV. You let the tank know you have aggro while doing that. The tank should then temporarily focus his threat skills on that target to re-establish the aggro. Doing all of this smoothly, without panic is a sign of good group dynamics. 10 seconds is more than enough time for any tank to get that aggro back and to keep it.

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Sure thing, explain this to the Lightning T2 tank, or F&F T2 tank... :(

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Originally Posted by Feraxks

I think 10 seconds is plenty long enough if your group is performing like they should. If you grab aggro, move to the tank and pop CV. You let the tank know you have aggro while doing that. The tank should then temporarily focus his threat skills on that target to re-establish the aggro. Doing all of this smoothly, without panic is a sign of good group dynamics. 10 seconds is more than enough time for any tank to get that aggro back and to keep it.

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I agree with this. Both wardens and guards have plenty of skills that can be used to get back to the top of the aggro heap on a target in less than 10 seconds time (much less, depending on what's off cooldown) so with proper coordination and communication there's no reason CV can't fulfill its function the way it is now. Whether it's a raid or a fellowship, it's purpose now is to send the mob back to the tank who had it for long enough to get ahold of it fully, which is a lot nicer for a tank than having to chase the mob across the room to wherever the ranged DPS classes are sitting.

One thing to keep in mind is that perceived threat bonuses scale to be far more useful than true threat bonuses the longer the fight goes on. It won't be particularly great for getting stuff off of you at the beginning of a fight (although that's really where DW shines) but later on in the fight when there's a lot of aggro on the table a threat drop of 25% would be enough to get a mob off of you and back to the tank in any situation barring a full aggro wipe. It has the potential to be very powerful if properly used if you're communicating with the tank that until he does some more threat skills you will still technically have aggro.

As for our threat in general: I am withholding judgement until I'm able to run tests with a tank I trust when it comes out. I've only been able to run one instance on BR, with a warden who was relearning how to tank, so I can't really say one way or another how bad it will be. I've noticed a definite difference in the past between when I was remembering to use CV consistently and when I was not in how much aggro I was pulling, and now we've got the damage bonus without the threat bonus. It really could be a pain for tanks, but really, given the amount of threat increases they've gotten in ROI I've been hearing constantly about how much easier it is to hold threat than it used to be, so maybe this will just restore them to actually having to work a bit for it. I'm hopeful that whatever problems ensue will be manageable with our existing skills combined with this new CV mechanic.

EDIT:
I was just reminded when posting in another thread that DF has been buffed. Hopefully, that buff affects its aggro reduction ability as well. If this is the case, it could very well go a long ways towards closing the gap CV has left, especially when fire traited, and could help continue to motivate people to trait fire now that lightning has been buffed.

DF has been buffed but nothing says its threat reduction has been done; now its simply instant, shorter duration, and lacks initial damage. So you won´t be able to spam it for threat reduction (or looks like it).

I really can´t see how you guys don´t see a problem on losing 20% threat reduction and value that much a -25% perceived threat over 10 seconds as a "skill for skilled players".

First, because "skilled players" already had Distracting Winds.
Second because now we got two threat reduction skills which do very similar things threat-wise and
Third ... well, the third part will come in weeks when raidleaders will start complaining about DPS RKs spoiling ToO fights (some even will take brgs/hunters/champions instead for simply fix the issue and for more burst damage or overall damage), due unability of RKs of doing damage without permanently toning their threat down. Take my words here unless we see more changes.

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Originally Posted by Bradegor

DF has been buffed but nothing says its threat reduction has been done; now its simply instant, shorter duration, and lacks initial damage. So you won´t be able to spam it for threat reduction (or looks like it).

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I was under the impression that you had to let it tick once after the initial damage in order to get the treat reduction applied. I guess I need to check my sources and validate results :)

So I had to read through 6 pages before you guys started talking about DF. That is your click once off cooldown threat management skill. If you look at the patch notes it says

"Distracting Flame - Cooldown now 30 seconds.Duration reduced to 15 seconds."

I haven't seen anything about the -CD legacy or the -CD in the Fire capstone so maybe someone on BR can share but to me that means that in U6 it is spam-able in Fire line naturally and spam-able in lightning line with the legacy.

As Raven mentions above you need to let it tick for the -Threat to take effect. Not sure if it is just once for the full effect or should you work it into your rotation every 15s for the full effect but I highly doubt that many RKs are using this skill to its max potential currently.

As a tank I have no concerns of losing aggro to RKs come U6. Between my threat leeches, Burg's Provoke, Champ's Rising / Ebbing Ire and your multiple threat management skills, frankly, you're not even on my radar for concerns. If you do get aggro then the group is not working well in the first place. At this point pop new CV, another DF and ask the Champ in your group to take aggro off you and dump it on the tank. Even if the champ is in the other group he can take it off his healer / hunter and dump it on the tank which should place said tank squarely back on top of aggro list. Not to mention Guardian ez-mode tanking skills like Engage.

long story short, use all your aggro management skills, communicate with your group and you will never get aggro. If something goes wrong and you do then there is a great way to buy you 10s to let the group deal with it without you dying. That's something you never had before.

Supposedly, DF lowers threat the magnitude it damages.

I´m not sure what will happen with the -DF CD reduction legacy if you equip the capstone, though. Maybe for Fire it won´t be needed ... which really wouldn´t make sense! Did anyone check this? It would be the first time that a legacy of some kind of skill helps only when such kind of skills aren´t traited, heh.

EDIT: i was thinking that perhaps the MF trait won´t give anymore the 30 seconds CD reduction. So it would be still needed. The 5% passive would balance it ... but supposedly that 5% passive was there for balancing the 10% of CV ... so, among so many balancements, maybe we got advantages, or we will get nerfs :D

Traited for lightning, DF (in current BR build) says it "slightly reduces threat over time" for 15 seconds, and it does damage for 15 seconds. Cooldown is 30 seconds.

With the fire capstone traited, it "greatly decreases threat over time" for 15 seconds, does DoT for 30 seconds, and the cooldown is 15 seconds (the legacy allowing you to have it at 0 cooldown). To keep the decrease in threat active continually you will have to use it before the DoT ends.

Now, what I have understood is that "threat over time" is threat generated by damage over time as opposed to threat generated by single attacks. Champ skill descriptions (as found on Wiki, fwiw) say things like "reduces threat from AoE attacks" or "tranfers 25% of total threat". Hunter's beneath notice says "makes you appear less threatening to enemies for a short time". However, decreasing threat over time could also mean it reduces threat for each tick of the debuff being active.

If reducing 'threat over time' is the same as reducing threat by X% but spread over the time the debuff ticks, than repeatedly using MF will help reduce threat, but not as effectively for lightning RKs. But if it really refers to threat generated by skills that do damage over time, it will not help RKs using lightning at all.

It would be great if someone could clarify the mechanics of how DF/MF work.

Well... DF still has 30 second cooldown in lightning spec so letting the legacy go to -30 do have some kind of validity. I can definitely see myself getting it to at least -15 in either spec. In lightning I'll be using it on one target at a time so 15s duration/cooldown matches well. In fire I'll be DPS:ing multiple enemies and I therefore need to apply MF to many enemies.

On the other hand, I like having duration == cooldown because I then know when I need to re-apply.

@Ravenstride : I'm happy that the Warden class seems to be working again. I've been missing playing with Wardens, they make things so much more interesting. First they almost die, then they completely refuse to die ;)

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Perceived threat changes only change current perceived threat.

Example: You have 1000 threat, the tank has 900. You use CV and you will be "perceived" as having 750 threat. The monster will wander back to the tank, who hopefully hits it a few times before 10 seconds is over. At the end of the duration, your threat goes back up to 1000 (plus whatever additional damage you've done.)

In other words, it's changed from a proactive skill that was completely incapable of helping once a monster started attacking you, to a reactive skill that can be used if you pull too much aggro to save your hide. It, plus the increases in tank threat gains we've added since RoI should make RK's feel a lot safer.

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Alright, then this is a brutal nerf to aggro handling, essentially meaning that you will produce 25% more threat than before. We already had an emergency button for this (Distracting Winds), and in an extended fight, it's the threat output that really affects how much DPS you can allow yourself -- emergency dumps are nice to have for when you go too hard, but they don't really help in this respect. Everything else being equal, it simply means that we will only be able to do 80% of the damage we used to do before pulling aggro.

I can't imagine how ZC can think that this is a help! (If so, I fear the zombies bringing gifts...)

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Originally Posted by Feraxks

I think 10 seconds is plenty long enough if your group is performing like they should. If you grab aggro, move to the tank and pop CV. You let the tank know you have aggro while doing that. The tank should then temporarily focus his threat skills on that target to re-establish the aggro. Doing all of this smoothly, without panic is a sign of good group dynamics. 10 seconds is more than enough time for any tank to get that aggro back and to keep it.

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If the group is performing like they should DPS will pick up aggro. Dont know how many groups you've been in but ive been in several and its rare they run Perfectly. DPS toons pick up aggro, it happens even in groups thats are performing like they should. I know how to get rid of aggro, ive been in plenty of groups thanks for the tips. Since ROI and the damage explosion its not as simple as it was to manage aggro on adds.

10 seconds might be enough, or it might not. Were talking about a temp aggro drop so you reset it after the time is up. Sure good guards can pull aggro quick and build threat I wont deny that but the purpose here is also to increase survivability on the big hits from mobs at end game.

I go in on a healing build at 7k morale and I can be one shotted, even if they group is "performing like they should" % chance to crit for players and mobs is a gamble even the best played toons dont know when its coming even if they build for it, its still a #### shoot. I havent even broached healing spikes which are threat generators.

But 10 seconds is fair enough to start, lets see how things shake out after monday. Better to have something then nothing at all.

I've participated in a Foundry T2 run on Bullroarer as dps rk.I've done it hundreds of times.One of the orcs kept chasing me.Then I used CV.Went back to tank.After 10 seconds,before he dies I saw him running to me.He died but still I felt very unsafe with this new CV.And run speed buff doesn't do anything.It's not very wise to run away far and orc chases you to wherever you go.I see this run speed buff is designed for moors but if you have slowing effects on you,you don't run faster.I thought this was like champs sprint but it's not.