http://docholidaymmo.com/2012/12/11/...rely-a-gimmic/
Apparently there are ZERO plans to evolve mounted combat. This makes me one sad puppy. But at least we know now its a waste to spend 1 penny on your mount, hes just a "one trick pony".
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http://docholidaymmo.com/2012/12/11/...rely-a-gimmic/
Apparently there are ZERO plans to evolve mounted combat. This makes me one sad puppy. But at least we know now its a waste to spend 1 penny on your mount, hes just a "one trick pony".
Admittedly I didn't watch the video and it may have been elaborated on there, but the question and comment the blog centers around is whether there will be any mounted combat instances and the response was the typical non-answer. That's an awful long stretch to go from no instances focused on mounted combat (Which I have a difficult time imagining anyways) to that's all you'll ever see of mounted combat.
I dunno, I've seen lots of misinformation/mistakes/jumping to conclusions from that guy in the past. No reason why this should be any different. He's definitely stretching quite a bit here with this blog post.
Well its unusual for Turbine to put a system in place and then not expand on it...
Unless you look at housing, hobbies etc
I'm glad they aren't going to try and make group content out of mounted combat. Can you imagine the nightmare of trying to make something like that challenging? And then the nightmare on our part, because we'll actually have to spend TP and time grinding out a bridle?
I love it as it is. A fun mini game.
And housing and hobbies are bling not core game development. Mounted combat represents what must be an insane amount of time and resources. To not get more content out of that investment doesn't sound likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaele
Of course I'm sure Turbine had hoped for more of a buzz and a draw around this both in the lotro community and in the greater gaming community. Hopefully this may happen over the long term. I'll take it over GW2 any day myself.
Not too mention the LAG!Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisco
Eh, I thought about that but mounted combat is or I guess could be a core feature. It'll at the very least be prominent in the next expansion and could have it's uses in other areas of Middle-Earth so I'm not sure if this will suffer the same fate of Turbine's other neglected features.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaele
Ah, there indeed is the fly in the ointment. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Eartholloth
Couple of thing I heard in the little bit I listened to
- they expect the Hytbold instances to come back in update 9.
- Update 9 within a couple of weeks and IC still in February
- The upcoming raid has 3 "wings" and is about the Battle of Dale. (about 55:30)
- They mentioned "Flood of Isengard" (54:00). I assume this is the name of the expansion (i.e. Western Rohan)
As far as the premise that there will be no additions to MC, I don't see that being mentioned.
This seems like a stretch to take this comment and apply it to all of MC. I have to think we'll use our war steeds in Western Rohan and some in Gondor. Just because there won't be any instances doesn't mean we won't still use our steeds or there won't be any updates.Quote:
t first question revolves around Mounted Combat instances and Aaron’s answer is:
“It is something we’re thinking about, but is not in our current plans”
Well Turbine has done something like this in DDO with a region known as the Red Fens, there the gimmick was underwater combat - and the whole region had instances where your character could swim under water and even combat (kind of - the combat took place in a "air -bubble" that you maneuvered around the bottom of the ocean like a hamster in a hamster ball - so it was kind of whac) but to the point, this was the only region it was implemented in - other regions (even areas released after the Red Fens) didn't have this underwater option - sooo... could be?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaele
But I agree with other people - the blogger makes a bunch of leaps and to me seems to be mostly a "Turbine Basher" especially with his opinion of Turbines motives for adding combat mounts and the sell of mounts in the store. He accuses Turbine as being just awful enough to set up the whole mounted combat region : Rohan for the sole purpose of selling mounts in the store.
What he doesnt say is that people are buying them like hotcakes and cant get enough of them - Sounds like supply and demand to me, nor does he mention that the LOTRO community has more or less demanded mounted combat from Rohan since the days of SoA - did Turbine really have any other choice but to make MC the central theme of a horse culture expansion? That would be like releasing MoM without going underground.
Let's hope they don't expand on it. I prefer old skool destruction, but that's just me.
Doc's a long-time player, and although his posts of late have been disappointed in the direction Turbine has headed, he's also got some stuff about the game he likes. He's well-written and coherant, and logical when it comes to most of his content, and talks about what he'd do to make it better, that makes it worth reading, whether or not you agree with his opinion
It's a clip pulled from the last 10minutes of the LotrO Reporter interview. given that they let slip that there's another landscape area being worked on,(~50m), and have already talked about some stuff related to western Rohan (w/ Massively) I see no reason to view this comment from +Rowan as anything other than to NOT expect MC outside of landscape content going forward.
How awesome would it be to ride out and face a herd of Mumakil in a MC instance? The answer is: very.
Except mounted combat is rather less outlandish than underwater combat. And underwater combat has been a part of PnP (A)D&D for decades, so they probably wanted to add some of if for that reason. But the outlandish D&Dishness is one of the reasons I stopped playing DDO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwarendele
Bottom line, DDO underwater combat smacks much more of "experimental" than LotRO mounted combat does.
Skirmishes have evolved over time? My warhorse already has far more versatility and customizability than my skirmish soldier. There is less content for my warhorse than for my skirmish soldier, but on the other hand the skirmish reward system has been absorbed and eclipsed by dungeon currency and now even warbands give marks. The skirmish system in LotRO, in itself, is like the half-dead Christmas tree in the Charlie Brown special. Humbug.
Considering the complexity of Lotros exisiting boss fights in instances (where so many different tactics are needed) compared to other MMO's (where DPS races to beat enrage timers seem common) I think Turbine could easily make a challenging Mounted Combat boss fight if they wanted to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisco
The problem is, I think they are afraid of the knee jerk whiny flame fest that would erupt on these forums if they spent precious time & resource on a MC Raid rather than a traditional foot combat raid.
I would be surprised if they haven't thought about making skirmishes with MC.
There are many Hytbold instances involving MC albeit just hack and slash but there could easily be a piece of landscape with objectives in it for group or solo play.
If mounted combat weren't completely revamped first, I'd have zero interest in MC instances. Mounted combat was relatively interesting for about half an hour, and from that point on its been a cooldown waiting, face-rolling, kite or ./follow fest with zero thought or depth. At the risk of offending people who love MC, the main reasons I see people give for enjoying it are 'I can hit ___ mob for XXXX damage' and 'I can kill ____ mob with XXXXXXXXXXXXX morale without taking any damage.'
If they keep MC for more landscape questing and such fine, but MC has been a complete flop for me and barring a revamp I couldn't care less if I never do it again.
I will admit I enjoy the more 'realistic' handling of riding a war-steed to the unicycle movement of regular mounts. Customizing its appearance is certainly a nice feature for people that are into that (great way to boost store sales without cutting into game content, imo).
@OP:Wish granted :)
"this isn't true :("
I am not so sure about the article, but I can understand that they hesitate to change MC. They already put a lot of resources in it and the restult ... well, it's fun, but it's not viable to be the new game play style. It's just too difficult for them to design content for MC.
:( I love mounted combat. And not because I can do x damage and not get hit or whatever. I just love riding around killing stuff. I dunno, its fun to me. I was hoping there'd be more :(
Personally I hated mounted combat and would be glad if it disappeared completely. What peeved me most about it is the way half my characters' skills got nerfed to 'slows' so as not to upset the stupid mounted mobs. So even if you didn't mount up you still couldn't play your character properly anymore! That's why my main characters are now shelved and I am playing low level alts instead, so I can play them using their skils the way they are supposed to be played. If there is ever content in the 80's that they can play properly without having mounted combat ruining it, then I will go back to them.
Mounted combat is great on hunter, captain, minstrel, RK and loremaster. Melee mounted combat just doesn't work for me, and especially on guardian and warden its a PITA.
They need to change several stuff in order to make it fun for every class, and then we would probably have to have different briddles for different roles in different situations (light horses in open spaces, heavy for tanking in fellowships for example for tanks), and that is not fun at all.
I remember talking to friends of mine about mounted combat before they started beta, and saying that Turbine is damned if they do it right and damned if they do it wrong. If right the players would expect a lot more, and they won't be able to deliver for various reasons, and if wrong they would have wasted a lot of developer's time and resources for nothing.
For what it's worth imho this time they got the ranged mounted combat as good as possible!
This is good news! MC as it is will give some variety within the questing of the next couple of zones while not taking away developer time from more important things like having a structured end-game!
Sure it could use a couple of tweaks but I think it is developed as it needs to be. LOTRO is more or less based on the trinity tank/healer/DPS system so we certainly dont need mounted skirmishes or instances. While people thing they sound 'cool' on paper they would most likely be as enjoyable and tedious as a daily Bugund run.
I'm very glad i didn't even spend 1 TP on my war-steed, even when the color packs were 50% off. I always felt it was just another way to rip off money from costumers. The system is pretty poorly implemented, as it seems there wasn't much time invested into it. Now i see why, it's just there to make money, with no plans for the future... When the new instances didn't include even 1 mounted combat instance, i knew this mounted combat was just a gimmick. Thanks for confirming that!
How is that different to non-mounted combat?Quote:
Originally Posted by spelunker
LI system...Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaele
Anyways, I'll be wrong for the first time ever on the development of these system if MC ever gets beyond what it is right now. Good for TP sales maybe?
Build it, hype it, get $ from it, shelve it... LOTRO development history. Get used to it.
As far as MC goes, I count it as a blessing.
Don't forget the forums, my.lotr, the lotro wiki - how long have they been in beta?Quote:
Originally Posted by giniluv
Turbine is turning into what we call a gunner
I'm gunna do this, and i'm gunna do that... but nothing ever seems to get finished
*happy dancing hobbit*
Mounted combat is stupid and not fun. I really hope they will NOT do any other content around it.
The author's post smacks of just a little hysteria to me. Rowan's statement of having no plans to incorporate MC into instances is not the same as leaving it in the dust. For myself I largely agree with Frisco. Mounted Combat on the landscape is a fun activity, bringing it to the rather more complex instances and raids seems unnecessary to me. Not saying it couldn't work, but I think making something organised of the chaos that is most group MC encounters would be rather difficult to pull off.
On a side note, it's good to see no one in this thread jumping to conclusions. /sarcasm off
You could add skirmishes to it. We have had some new skirmished, and right now is the only end game we have, but they still feel like a waste to me, they could have done much more after skirm launchQuote:
Originally Posted by Shaele
Brilliant and 100% true. + repQuote:
Originally Posted by Shaele
I am someone who loves mounted combat, and you hit the nail on the head as to why very well. I really enjoy being able to ride around, as a hunter, and not be completely and utterly smushed by (some) landscape mobs that other classes have had a much easier time soloing themselves in the past. I like the OP feeling, it's fun. I guess I have accepted that hard landscape content was more of a thing of the SoA and MoM eras, and much, much less in MoM. I am cool with my hard stuff coming in instances. I -really- think that should have been also in ROR on time, but that's another discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by spelunker
But, because of what I state above, I do not think mounted combat would work in any instances except possibly skirmishes. Something like a raid or even fellowship, no. Not without some revamps.
While I don't like how they bundled colors rather than selling them separately (I mean... maybe I just want one color, but I have to buy all four), I do agree that you make a good point about it making money without cutting into content. (Guess what Turbine what also would do that? Housing revamp! :D Please don't have bundles only.. lol)
In the end, good post. Well thought out.
Mmm...
I actually do enjoy mountain combat, with the provision that is understood its still being developed. I would definetly would love to see some instance or skirmish specifically made for a group of eight players to collaborate in something, but initially I see a lot work ahead in each class with regards to mounted activities, principally the special effects of many classes would have to be instituted, such as Burglars being able to place holds that actually holds mounted combatants as opposed to merely and imperceptively slow them down, the Minstrel should be able to actually heal injured players while mounted, and the list goes on. But frankly correcting the failure of the classes signature abilities while mounted should not be too difficult, if there is a desire.
I would love to see a mounted raid, but as someone commented: The lag would make it prohibited; pity it would have been awesome.
Sue
I would love for my characters' class skills go back to what they were before mounted combat nerfed the hell out of them. I want to use stuns, roots, dazes, Hunter traps, etc that actually work like they did before RoR. Stuff slows where the sun doesn't shine! Mounted combat is something that is either loved or hated. I hate it and am glad that some are able to enjoy it, but I even more hate the fact that even when I don't do mounted combat my character is still being punished because of it! Give me back my skills!Quote:
Originally Posted by Acasta
How can you say that the LI system has never been expanded on? It's undergone constant changes and development.Quote:
Originally Posted by giniluv
I also don't believe for one second that MC is just a gimick. I use my war steed constantly and would hate to be without it at this point. Think about how hard it will be to come up with a challenging, fun MC instance. It would be a lot of fun but also require a good bit off thought and planning because it is unlike any other system we have in the game.
Count me in the "typical non-answer" camp.
We weren't going to have mounts faster than +68% or with combat mechanics either, until they decided otherwise. Also no phasing, IIRC, until it suddenly started showing up.
Turbine's answer to whether something will appear in the future is usually "no" or silence, the latter of which would be awkward in an interview. By the time we know of their change in position, it's on Bullroarer or in a Dev Diary and going in, like it or not :p
I love mounted combat, therefore, I don't care how they keep it in the game, I just hope they do.
I don't like seeing my Dwarf fighting from horseback anyway.
I think mounted combat is fun enough solo. I'm not crazy about (as in I'm not going to fret over the traiting or bother melding relics for the bridle), but I ended up liking it more than I thought I would. But, I will be *very* relieved if there are no MC instances. EVERY time I do Bugud, my loremaster "tanks" it.. or rather has aggro and has to kite him around the whole time. Our classes aren't the same on horseback. As a LM, I can't debuff or cc (I'm fine with that solo as all I ever do solo is burn stuff down), it seems guardians have no aggro skills and their horses certainly aren't prepared to take a large beating like a guardian on foot would. I dunno how much healing RKs or minstrels have. Without a total rebuild of our mount class skills and mount morale/armour/mitigations for tanking classes, I think the instances would be a big mess.
even WoW had mounted instances... like 2-3 yrs ago.
as for if being a gimmick, ive said that from the beginning. thats how MMOs roll. on to the next new flavor. its all about the marketing. its better/easier to market a new item/feature than to rebrand an old one.
all MMOs have done this.
at least LOTRO has NOT used the same features to sell multiple xpacs (you know who you are, you dirty dirty MMOs). well, theyve come close. they have hinted at ettenmoors expansions and new pvp zones, and never delivered. had they used that as a major marketing point for RoI, and not delivered, then used it as a selling point for RoR, theyd be on par for some other games.
all this being said, i LOVE mounted combat. it rules! was exactly what i was looking for and didnt even know it!
You mean...a company saw a consumer desire for a product, created a product to meet that desire, and are now making a tidy profit on providing a desired product?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwarendele
...the fiends....
This is what I've thought of, every time I've considered what a MC instance would look like.Quote:
Originally Posted by SapienChavez
The MC instance content in WoW when their vehicle combat system was announced was a pretty big yawn-fest. Vehicles and vehicle combat were a big feature of the WotLK expansion, and they made sure to put at least one vehicle combat in each instance cluster of that expansion. Every one of them was a nice change the first time....and ONLY the first time. My guild went into Ulduar the first time, and all thought "Oh, great....ok, guys, this is the vehicle fight. Here's your two skills. Let's just deal with it and get through it." Problem was, we had to "just deal with it" every time Ulduar reset.
The problem is, when you're mounted, you're not really performing as your class. You don't tank, heal, or CC in a mounted fight...you have a very limited set of options (generally you can maybe have one or two people kite, and everybody else spams some combination of DPS skills), and those options generally have very little to do with the character you've spent months/years developing, learning, and gearing. The tactical options for those fights tend to be more narrow, not more broad. Every WoW vehicle fight ended up being a variation on the same theme....I struggle to see how LOTRO's MC implementation would be any different.
So, for the people saying that MC instance content would be a great change-of-pace, think about this....how much value are you truly going to get from having one fight per wing or instance where you're required to mount up, and play in a style foreign to your class just to progress through the instance? How long would that actually remain fun? What new strategic options do you think it would really lend? Would you end up simply developing a mount bridle and skill tree just to keep around for that one fight?
My guardian mounted (heavy steed) has plenty aggro, fellowship benefits (+armour etc), and can take one hell of a beating toe to toe with groups of enemies, as can his mount. Not raid sized mobs with all the trimmings, but landscape mobs yes, bring 'em on. His only real weakness in MC is low DPS compared to my champ and hunter, so overall he behaves exactly as he does on foot. He gets beaten and bruised, fights back as he can, and is eternally grateful when the real DPS merchants down the mobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothirieth
Albeit the mechanisms are not exactly the same, this is exactly how I expected MC to be for him. YMMV. As/when/if we get MC instances then our tactics would be different, as the mobs would be more mobile. The slows that people dislike would become very important, just as they are (dismounted) in some class skills now. My hunter is very happy to slow enemies rather than melee with them. Would it be exactly the same classes performing in exactly the same ways? No, I doubt it. But then I would expect nothing else. It's mounted combat, why would it be the same as foot-slogging? Cavalry and infantry tactics are very different, and have been ever since the world discovered cavalry,
Well I really hope there was a misunderstanding in the interview.
I am also one of those that believe if you are going to have mounted combat there needs to be instances built around it.
Rohan and even the Siege of Gondor just offer too many great opportunities for a whole new style of 3, 6 and 12 man instances.
Yes Helm's Deep was mainly a foot battle, but we have the charge of Gandolf, the charge of the king and of course the great charge on the Pelenor fields. These are just too ICONIC to ignore, IMHO.
I was really looking forward to dismounting adds with my tank, using the skills to force mobs to ride by my side, learning to heal with mu miinny, etc.
Well one thing this interview has convinced me of is to NOT spend TP in the store on my mount. I agree if this just just a solo thing for a couple of regions, then it is not worth wasting money on it.
Yesterday I did the MC Instance in Feldham, the NPC managed to chase mobs into a fenced in area that he couldn't seem to get out of and then proceeded to bug out.....FOUR TIMES!
Now if Turbine can't get the basics right (setting aside the giraffe on rollerskates on a frozen pond analogy) how on earth could they put out something the least bit intriguing with mounted combat? Bugud is the best effort with a 12 man MC raid that we've seen from Turbine and that's soloable.
I say good riddance to MC and I hope the Doc got it right...
I, personally, would like to see mounted instances. I like the handful of quests where you mount up with some NPCs and gallop across the hills, blowing up mobs. Doing Bugud on a daily basis is fun, but without being in an actual group you don't get the full benefit of many of the class-specific skills. Not to mention, once you get 3 or 4 people on Bugud, the challenge is trivial. I think that doing something that is tougher and requires a higher level of coordination and use of class skills would be fun.
I wouldn't say constant changes and development - but sure some changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffor
But you clearly forgot (or never knew) that we were very clearly promised Part 2 of the LI revamp, and then they conveniently forgot to do this. As usual broken promise because they don't have enough dev. time to work on the game. I am not trying to be mean or anything, but clearly they don't invest enough in staff (for whatever reason) to update game systems fully - like the LI system, housing, kinship systems, AH, etc.
I am quite sure they have gotten their return from the investment to create the store. I would be nice if some of that was returned to the players to make a better game. But I guess we will never get secondary features like kins and housing improved.
I'm with you. It's infused something new into the game. The consensus seems to be that people like it. So I really doubt it's going to disappear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Granlu
I disagree. Show Turbine a good income stream from kinship or housing upgrades and they'll be on it like a shot. Problem is there isn't one. And as a business they are not going to invest heavily in something which doesn't show a payback. It doesn't matter if you make can openers, software, fairy cakes or cars, no company in its right mind will pour big money down a black hole with no sign of recovery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindir
We cannot as a userbase say "oh look at all the people who have said they would pay for bigger/better/different housing". Aspirations don't pay bills and as Turbine have told us redeveloping housing is a non-trivial project (and I have no data to dispute that), we need more than airy promises. Ask anyone who organises social events, or has started a small business based on the "guaranteed sales" of their social circle, once it's time to actually pay then the enthusiasm often disappears. And I think Turbine know, and I suspect, that the response to a revamped housing system would be " I'm not paying xxxxxTP for extra hooks/storage/furniture", "it's a rip-off", "we wanted it all to be free". Free doesn't pay the bills.
Is the store making profit? I have no idea, but I hope so. Is Turbine as a whole making money, again I don't know, and frankly it's none of my business, but again I hope so. Because I want to be logging into Gladden next year, and the year after. And if Turbine don't produce the numbers, I won't be. That means a lot more to me than whether I can display a few more stuffed bears in my home.
Damojo - I guess having the game driven by what maximizes Turbine's income is fine with you. You are okay with never having improvements to the game like housing or better kinship systems.
For me, I want the game to be better for players. Maximizing the company's profits has very little to do with making ab better game for players.
Lotro has the potential to be a great game - on par with games like WoW and Rift. But it will never see that potential. Both those game make constant improvements to game systems like kinships and housing (ok WoW has no housing but just improves guild systems, rep systems, AH system, etc.).
Turbine will not invest in improving game features like housing. I guess they are following your preferred model of only doing something if it makes them more money.
Maybe its a vicious cycle over these last few years: not enough money > buggy unfinished product > not enough subscribers and not enough players > not enough money > late, buggy product > not enough sales > not enough developers > late too small content > etc. Its a shame.
Of course they are, this is a business not an open source project. If you're offended by that fact, then leave all the MMOs alone, they are not run for fun & giggles. They are run for cash. Noticed WoW 'not' making money recently? It's easy to invest when your profits are good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindir
Step 1 of any game being better for the players is making sure the wheels keep turning, no point having all the housing and kinship improvements in the world if the servers get switched off 3 months later.
*edit* as to your insinuations that I only care about Turbine's bottom line, don't want a better game for players, don't want game improvements........ frankly not worth answering. If you want to attack what I say, make sure I actually said it first, please.
That's what every for-profit endeavor is, has been and always will be about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindir
His post didn't say he was OK with it, he was simply recognizing reality.Quote:
You are okay with never having improvements to the game like housing or better kinship systems.
Then perhaps you'd better stop doing business with any for-profit company.Quote:
For me, I want the game to be better for players. Maximizing the company's profits has very little to do with making ab better game for players.
No one spends $1.00 unless they are sure enough they'll get at least $1.01 in return. Would you be willing to pony significant cash up front to finance housing improvements? I sure wouldn't. I'd take advantage of them if there were offered for "free." As Damojo (and others, including me, have) posted, there's no guarantee all the people who say "Oh, yeah, I'd totally drop major TP on housing improvements" would in fact spend one thing dime.Quote:
Turbine will not invest in improving game features like housing. I guess they are following your preferred model of only doing something if it makes them more money.
Tp be honest i would expect mounted comabt to remain just as it is and tbh i hope it does !
I'm fine with that.
I never wanted a mounted combat in the 1st place, even in Rohan i mostly kill things on foot, apart if i want to solo a big warband.
MC is purely a side-thing, it's not, nor it was meant to be one of the game's main features, whereas your own character & it's skills is and has been since start.
It's more of a fun thing, if you want real MC, go play Skyrim, there MC is realistic and when your horse dies, it dies for good.
It was announced in the beggining that MC will be Rohan exclusive and nowhere outside will it be used, so you have it here - in Rohan, you have it maxxed, that's it, move on with your life.
Even in the lore, warsteeds and mounted forces were used to rush in and crush the initial wave and weaken the enemy, the rest of the combat was mainly on foot in all the major events. As you can't really have an prolonged combat mounted up as you're too easy as a target. So from that aspect, it only makes sense not to implement anything on top of what we already have.
But a lot of us would. Think about Kickstarter. This was suggested on the forums a while back.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxjenius
Investing only the bare minimum is a management choice. WB clearly could have chosen to invest in more development capacity and made improvements to the game. They could have chosen to polish the game, put it out on time, improve basic game play features like housing. No one can say what would have happened if they had done that - meaning how successful the game would be now. Turbine also clearly chose to not invest in the game as much as they could. They hired staff for other Turbine games but not for Lotro. That is their decision. How naive to think a game company cannot make a bigger initial investment and have it pay off later. How is the choice to not invest enough in Lotro working out now?
But of course, hindsight is 20/20 and it is easier to look at something after than to make a tough business decision. I am sure the staff have done the best with what resources WB and Turbine management deigned to give them.
I don't imagine mounted combat will ever be rolled out to pre-RoR areas. I imagine it will be a part of all post-RoR areas. And LotRO is a fantasy MMO, not a combat simulator.Quote:
Originally Posted by Egonz
I seem to recall a Turbine rep stating that LOTRO had no plans to go F2P, roughly at the time when F2P was apparently already in the works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyrion
So have faith, MC Instance-wanting people - "no plans at this time" = "we're already doing it"! :)
(In all seriousness, someone else already covered the main problems with creating challenging or interesting MC instances - we just don't have enough skill variety for them to be anything other than DPS fests. "Everyone go on /follow, spam your 10s cooldown skills as possible, while the person with aggro runs away and takes no damage" doesn't seem like it'd be terribly challenging.)
Go to your bank and tell them you have a briliiant idea. Tell them you have already raised $1000 from your buddies but need another half a million to make it happen. When they ask you for evidence of revenue to cover the loan repayments, tell them you have no tangible evidence whatsoever apart from the individuals who ponied up the initial $1000. Think you'll get your loan?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindir
It's a nonsense. You can try it for nothing, collect money for a kickstart to any Turbine project you care to name, all fully logged, and guaranteed return of funds if Turbine still say "no" in a reasonable timeframe. Keep the money somewhere it cannot be used, siphoned, or otherwise misused. Have full transparency so that people know where their cash is at all times. See how many donations you get.
Companies make long-term investments all the time. They pour resource into things which will not immediately pay off. But they don't do that if said project will never so much as break even. Unless they are Saab of course, instructed by GM to stop making everything bespoke and use as many components off the shelf as they could. Saab refused, they invested in new bespoke models. They maintained it was the right thing to do for Saab owners and buyers. Look what happened to them.
I'm not opposed to you getting (and me not getting) premium content you are willing to pay for. If you can get it going, by all means, have at at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindir
Exactly. Turbine makes decisions based on what they think will make them the most money. That's what all businesses do.Quote:
Investing only the bare minimum is a management choice. WB clearly could have chosen to invest in more development capacity and made improvements to the game. They could have chosen to polish the game, put it out on time, improve basic game play features like housing. No one can say what would have happened if they had done that - meaning how successful the game would be now.
How many people do you really think care all that much about improvements to what many consider to be "fluff" game content? Very few, I imagine. That's the problem with those who wax enthusiastic regarding things like housing. They're simply not as popular as proponents think they are.Quote:
Turbine also clearly chose to not invest in the game as much as they could. They hired staff for other Turbine games but not for Lotro. That is their decision. How naive to think a game company cannot make a bigger initial investment and have it pay off later. How is the choice to not invest enough in Lotro working out now?
And for the record, I don't consider anything "fluffier" than anything else. It's a game. It's all fluff.
Given the development time that was put into mounted combat, and that at MINIMUM (maybe more), the next paid expansion must use it as a major feature (can't have MC in east rohan, then make us walk in west Rohan)...
They will have to add some new skills, or mount levels etc after a level cap increase with Western Rohan and Helm's Deep. And as always, there may be some tweaks.
Now, in-depth MC group content, for some reason I don't see them wasting too many resources here...
I, like others, view Mounted Combat for what it is- a mini-game. I never viewed it as a "core system". It's analogous to Space Combat in TOR for me. I can appreciate it for what it is, and don't really expect more- except better responsiveness.
mounted combat is fine. Sure some classes are tuff to get going in it, but even my guard rides for ruin with a twohander real well now that my horse is L50 and he's propperly traited and geared.
I would think the next step would be to add a formation mechanic with raids based on breaking the enemy formation while keeping yours together. This would actually look and feel like real mounted combat and work much the same. Once a formation is broken then you can pick off the individuals as a group. A formation is taking up to 24 players, putting them into a group and fighting as one (whole) entity. You get a formation bonus and when the formation is broken, you lose it. the leader of the raid/formation would steer the whole group and overall formation speed would be limited to the highest speed of the slowest steed. The stratagy would be to see what kind of formation (line a breast as an example) works best against the enemys formation. There can be many formation types like boxes, wedges, etc.
LIs are expanded with every level cap increase at the very least. How constantly should they change it? What about the people like me that have no real issue with LIs? Perhaps they felt part two of the revamp was unnecessary. I am generally happy with LIs and would be wary of any big changes at this point. I can't be the only one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindir
I disagree with this completely. Space in TOR is like going to your ship (in game) and playing a space arcade game and when you're done you go back to playing the actall game. War Steeds can be used in most of Middle-earth and are faster than stable horses. I miss my WS quite a bit when I log on my alts that dont' have them yet and I consider getting a WS the paramount first step when entering Rohan for the first time. Not to mention that a fully leveled war steed can wreck havoc on NPCs.Quote:
Originally Posted by bastiat1
You might play MC as a mini-game but that doesn't make it a mini-game for everyone.
Since it was my post that started this, I figured I'd chime inhere. It is quite possible I'm jumping to conclusions, but that statement from Rowan (who is VERY careful when he answers questions) just struck a chord with me. Go back and listen to the E3 interview when asked about the already announced PvMP map - you'll notice the wording is identical - that's what stuck in my mind.
I really hope that I'm wrong about Mounted Combat but in an absence of information to the contrary, those are some of the thoughts that came to mind.
So yes, I don't like some of the store aspects of how the system was employed or the pricing of the expansion but the majority of the article is focused on ways to make the game better. Am I taking a pessimistic view, yes, but also one that does have some grounding in reality as well.
I guess I must be doing something right as I've now been called a Turbine fan-boi as well as a Turbine basher :)
I miss your podcast :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson7
Keep up the good work. You should cover GW2.
Thanks :) I just don't play enough to have enough to talk about intelligently these days.
And sadly I think 2 MMOs is enough, I don't have enough room for GW2. Plus the rest of the world covers it, no need for another voice...
+ rep for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethelwolf33
This is probably exactly how such things should work, and would probably please JRRT as well, after all, his battles tended to be won by skill and courage or cunning and tenacity rather than Uberblats of Doom. The major technical challenge to the devs would be synchronising toons so that you did not lose position simply due to lag (and thus rook it for the others) but only through shortage of ability or enemy interference.
The game is not a combat simulation but there is no need to be sloppy about accurate depictions of medieval style combat.
Its probably how the Ettens should work as well, co-ordinated armies not individuals.
You're right it's not a mini-game for everyone. It's a liability and I avoid using WS at all costs. It's to the point for me where it's even easier and faster to kill Bugud on foot...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffor
I find that it's easier and faster to tag Bugud and then finish him off with bow auto-attacks while I play a game on my phone. There are usually so many people killing Bugud every time he's up that it doesn't really matter what any of us do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_J
A lot of what you are saying is a problem with how people have built their mounts, not how MC is designed. Most players I've seen are running around on light steeds with few/no points put into anything but damage skills and movement skills, the basic relics- all designed around damage- and complain about how they can't do x, y or z.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothirieth
I've traited a heavy horse, with relics and skills that balance defense and damage, and I can absorb a boatload of damage as a champ. A guardian traited for defense on a heavy horse should be more than tanky enough for anything. Now, they do need a good aggro skill as a class skill, but the traitlines do have a few aggro skills that can be used (though light steed users can't get them).
If Turbine added in MC content that forced players to have tanks, cc, heals as well as damage, players would start to trait things other than light steed/red line and we might see more variety and class roles being used. The content right now doesn't require anything more than damage, damage and more damage. I would also significantly increase the amount of melee damage that melee classes do and reduce the amount of damage ranged attacks do, for players and NPCs. Being able to damage something at a distance without much risk should not be significantly more effective than the melee attacks of classes forced to have to engage in melee (and consequently get hit much harder) to fight.
+1 for the couldn't care less if they entirely removed MC from the game tomorrow brigade.
I've levelled the mount of three different character classes now, and each time it's been nothing but a complete chore which just seemed to diminish the on-foot ability of my character, and doesn't really translate the play style for each class at all.
Best thing about MC is being granted a reasonably swift mount on the characters which didn't already possess one. Apart from that, it's just enormously meh and adds nothing at all enjoyable to the LOTRO experience for me.
^this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothirieth
It doesn't help that I can't do much from horseback and I feel like my classes were gimped.
I really don't want to see MC in any instances and I really won't be upset if they don't include it in anything beyond landscape stuff.
Do we really need a bunch of people sitting on horses in a circle around a boss beating it down with the same three skills over and over in an instance, like we do with war-bands?
OK, every now and then one of the classes without a power restore skill dismounts and remounts to regain a full power bar, woohoo, what strategy! </sarcasm>
Please, no mounted combat instances, let's return to a true group dynamic, where players get to work together as a team, incorporating a plethora of dynamic skills (remember CC?), marshaling their resources to achieve greater than they might individually. Mounted combat doesn't even feel like "Lotro for Dummies", as they stripped away what makes Lotro combat feel like Lotro.
Seriously, all my characters (both mêlée and ranged) simply hold down the turn key on autorun while hitting 1-2-3 over and over while I look at something else. This is not fun.
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/3...ickensig00.jpg
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
This doesn't mesh with what a guard in my raid alliance told me, nor Lotro wiki's list of guardian mounted skills. I'm not seeing any skills to keep aggro. I'm seeing some force target to ride beside/in front of you, which is something my LM has too (though it is possible lotro wiki does not list them all.) And I am talking about harder mobs with all the trimmings, not your normal landscape mobs. And how exactly is your heavy horse going to be that much sturdier than anyone else's heavy horse? They're not *that* different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Damojo
Well, I think that's because damage is about all any class can do well. That's certainly true of LM. I find very little difference between light and medium steed (medium is a bit more sturdy ofc, but I stick with light in order to have the chance to dismount mobs, very helpful when I have to "tank" Bugud. :P) but I've not gotten to try heavy steed due to Turbine forcing us to pay up if we want to try all three steeds.. I refuse. :P I've traited enough into the three lines though. I'll never get all the classes high enough to fully experience MC on them (let alone experience at all), but from all the talk, our classes seem quite similar on horseback. They've lost their individual feel and they're not that versatile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sthrax
See, I don't think they could offer any content different from damage, damage, damage with the way they have currently built our classes on mounts. I'm asserting that to give us content that required tanking, cc, heals, that that would be a mess as we don't have the proper skill sets for this.Quote:
If Turbine added in MC content that forced players to have tanks, cc, heals as well as damage, players would start to trait things other than light steed/red line and we might see more variety and class roles being used. The content right now doesn't require anything more than damage, damage and more damage.
No kidding on reducing ranged damage from NPCs. Either that or significantly increase our mounts' morale. I also agree that it shouldn't be dangerous for melee classes to move in and do damage as well. Really, it's quite unfair that my LM can solo Bugud just because she can keep distance from everything and stance dance to regain health and power.Quote:
I would also <snip> reduce the amount of damage ranged attacks do, for players and NPCs. Being able to damage something at a distance without much risk should not be significantly more effective than the melee attacks of classes forced to have to engage in melee (and consequently get hit much harder) to fight.
I personally hope it's true. I wouldn't want it anywhere else than in Rohan, perhaps other landscapes, OK, but no instances, skirms, no group content, NO DEV TIME.
My level 50 light steed has 2100 endurance, 4900 power, 950 armour and 490 strength. My level 23 heavy steed has 2800 endurance, 2900 power, 1800 armour and 695 strength. At level 23 it's stats are significantly beyond the light steed, which has finished development, in every respect other than power. And that is without any bridle relics or other boosts, the light steed has bridle relics and a 2nd age bridle, and I have deliberately boosted its armour. If this trend continues for another 27 levels, it will be very much sturdier than the light steed. How can you say they are not that different?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothirieth
My guard has two ride-beside skills, a 20% threat bonus from stances, and gives a 500 armour boost to himself and all fellowship members on demand. He is only level 79 so has more to come. Just like a tank should, the mechanics are different, but he can make enemies concentrate their attention on him, and use his armour to protect the fellowship, which is what a tank does, is it not? It's mounted read mobile combat, I didn't expect his mechanic to be to stand still on horseback, tap his shield and shout.
When there are anything but landscape mobs to fight against in mounted combat, we can swap experiences. At the moment that is all anyone has, warbands to me are just high morale landscape mobs, they don't really fight any differently.
Turbine making money is ALL of our business. We supply the income. I pay and play for this game for my enjoyment and I EXPECT something back, not just cheezy store items. WB/Turbines current practices make me NOT want to spend money or invest in their product. If every move and idea is being floated at board meetings with the hook of "how much can we make?" Then Turbine has it all wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Damojo
Take care of your customers and they in turn will take care of your bottom line, screw your costumers and nobody will be left to pay your bills. The sooner Warner Bro$ figures that out the better.
Are you talking about your bridle levels? You have 1 horse to level. You can switch back and forth between light and medium, but the level will always be the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Damojo
I'm happy for there not to be any mounted combat instances.
I haven't really enjoyed it and i don't know many tanks who have. For one we don't have any way to keep aggro and it takes to long to kill even weaker mobs.
I have seen ranged DPS classes one shot mobs and thought how wonderful mounted combat must be for them.
I was singularly unimpressed with mounted combat while participating in the beta rounds. Since Rohan went live I have simply not been motivated to push leveling my warden or my alts, all due to mounted combat. Made all of one level on my warden just working on the Epic without even getting my steed and my hunter is 78 but still does not have a steed as I had not done Great River with him and made levels completing that zone.
I did the beta rounds on my warden and found that for a tank mounted combat was just boring and not the least bit fun for me. Others may find it fun on a warden but I did not and for me that is what counts. My main is my warden and as a result my time in game has declined by at least 80% since Rohan went live, mostly I play my minstrel who is leveling through Moria at the moment and does not have to deal with mounted combat.
OP, it's not true. :)
What I said is that we have no immediate plans for a mounted combat instance. I don't like to make promises I can't keep, or raise false hopes. Mounted combat instances are something we have talked about a great deal (there are challenges building the content that we'll need to work through first).
We definitely have plans to develop mounted combat as a system. There are already changes in the works in regard to trait trees and smoothing some of the combat mechanics. The list of potential work is very long - the same lead designer has been on mounted combat since it kicked off in 2011, and he is fully dedicated to building on the foundation we have now.
First of all, resolve these *bad* lags, sometimes it is almost unplayable...
We resolved a couple fairly serious server bugs with Update 9, so hopefully you'll see improvement on Monday!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilda
Sounds great but PLEASE do not change the mechanics in a way where there are forced roles, such as a Minstrel who wants to dps only finds herself on the healing side of things. Thanks. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan
Is that a release date?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan
I certainly hope so. When I've experienced mounted combat as I believe Turbine intended, it was really quite compelling. However, the stop-start-stop-start/inability to steer/suddenly somewhere I wasn't just a second ago lag-fest that I often endure shoots that experience all to oblivion. Makes it to where I don't even want to look at my war-steed much less ride it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan
I believe they must release U9 by Monday or else the Yule Festival will have to be delayed (or pulled and go with last year's festival, which wouldn't exactly upset me).Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurinor_EU
Apparently so :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurinor_EU
I guess we'll probably get an official update later today, or by mid tomorrow at the latest.
Makes sense to release on Monday rather than the week of Christmas ;)
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurinor_EU
Additionally, its the same date we could have worked out from Celestrata's comments yesterday about the number of dev diaries =)
It's like a fundamental law of community relations. No statement is so well crafted that the forums can't find some way to extrapolate the worst possible scenario from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan
I appreciate you clarifying your statement - although that really doesn't answer the question any further. You said during that interview that you have long term detailed plans, so are Mounted Combat Instances part of those plans? You said in the interview they are not, so which part of my post are you disagreeing with? And by my post, I mean my my post that started this whole discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan
I'm more then happy to take this off-line, but I'm just trying to understand what you're saying and what you're disagreeing with.
Thanks!
Sadly it was a simple question that he's now muddied the water with. The question that started my post was "will there be mounted combat instances?" Rowan said there are no plans at this time. He also states in that same interview that they have long term detailed plans for the game. Yes I'll admit I'm taking a potentially pessimistic view of things, but the foundation of those statements are straight from the mouth of Turbine.Quote:
Originally Posted by furtim
this is precisely why mounted combat is unsuited for -- and will NEVER be suited for -- group instance content. the people who like mounted combat like it because every class is a DPS class. but you cannot design interesting, challenging, or enjoyable group content around every class being a DPS class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norwrei
these are mutually exclusive things. you CANNOT build mounted combat into group instance combat without fundamentally reworking mounted combat such that the people who enjoy it (like the person above) will no longer enjoy it, by creating a necessity for people actually playing different class roles rather than everyone being a DPSer. meanwhile, adding a marginal amount of additional group utility to mounted combat will still not change the minds of those who currently find it a tedious, pew-pew-in-a-circle activity. so it's the worst of all worlds -- former mounted combat fans would get turned off by the changes and former mounted combat opponents would remain opposed.
this is why it makes far more sense for mounted combat to remain as a landscape-only feature, rather than crowding out the already sparse realm of group content. the most i can reasonably see in terms of group mounted combat is a single skirmish down the line. otherwise, it is fundamentally unsuited for group content.
so long as class roles are irrelevant and DPS is all that matters (which is what mounted combat's biggest fans see as the biggest plus of the system, while players interested in group content consider it the biggest negative), mounted combat cannot translate to group content. full stop. so, just let it remain a mini-game rather than ruining it for all players by trying to turn it into a weird hybrid it was never designed for and which would lack appeal to all different playstyles.
I like the sound of Monday. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan
It does answer the question. Very thoroughly. The OP wanted to know whether it was true that there was zero plan to evolve mounted combat any further, and he answered. Just because the OP based his assumption off of your blog doesn't mean you automatically get to dictate the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson7
If you're expecting a clear answer to "Will there be mounted combat instances?" prepare to hold your breath for a long time. Even if they were planning them down the line, it will take huge changes to the mechanic, and they may ultimately find out that it's not worth it if they have to make MC un-fun in order to make the instances work.
Rowan's post was very clear to me. They are working out kinks in MC currently, polishing it up. Maybe working on some balancing, new skills, etc. MC instances are an idea they're almost certainly considering, but since there is no current plan to develop them (plenty of other MC issues keeping them busy), he's not going to say "Yes, there will be MC instances in the future."
Woot! Monday! I was right :D Monday cannot come quick enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan
I wonder how many more will get introduced though?......Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan
We can agree to disagree on the concept of thorough, it at least was a response to the OP, I agree. I saw some PR speak on the issue, and all the threads on the forums on this same line have been un-answered. Hopefully Update 9 which we'll see on Monday will be the first step.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisco
Folks like Hudson are exactly the kind of person I was referring to. Developers almost never talk about what they're doing more than one big patch in advance, and Turbine especially has always held to this rule. Even with the second half of the Moria revamp, which we knew they were actively working on since they announced the first half, they didn't announce any specifics -- not even timing -- until it went on Bullroarer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisco
As frustrating as it is for us players when the devs refuse to make promises, it's even more frustrating when they make promises that they end up not keeping, so honestly I don't mind the relative silence. And if you really think this is worse, ask the PvMP folks who are still waiting for the new map that was hinted at a billion years ago what they think about that.