Getting the Community back to where it needs to be

As someone who has played 4 MMO's in my experience the community is what attracts new players to the game. After I quit WOW I wanted to play a game that had a great community so I could easily integrate myself into the game and learned everything I had to know to make my experience enjoyable.

When I first started looking for new games I did extensive research before picking a game. This included youtube videos, wiki's and asking around with friends to see what was a really great game. Something I also did was hit up the forums before playing said game. The general forum. After checking out some f2p games at the time I chose to play DDO. I was familiar with the DND universe (something we played as teenagers) and I wanted to come home. Even though the forum community was great the in game community was not there.

That's when I decided to play this game. Before I did I saw a great video about the difference between WOW and LOTRO that helped me make my decision. My next step was to check out the general discussion forum. This was back in the days when the Moria xpac was out going into the MW xpac. Way back then the forum community was exactly what I was looking for. The posts were basically players helping other players. Good feedback about the game and some valid complaints as well.

I'm not sure what exactly happened because mainly I used the forum to fix the game, figure out a quest, find a kin or just ask questions. Sometimes I offered some suggestions about the content. So, over the last couple weeks that I have been revisiting the general discussion forum I've seen some disturbing behavior. I've gotta tell ya if I was choosing a new MMO and using the general forum as a basis for my decision I would have avoided this game like the plague.

I know we are in a new error of the internet where some believe flaming or trolling is acceptable and makes you look cool. But I think that we all including myself need to think about what we are typing. Do we want to grow this game? Do we want it to end up like WOW, where every single thread gets trolled or flamed. I don't think we do. If anything bringing new players to the game actually helps the community. It starts right here with us the players.

The attitudes from some of the posters/thread starters is showing us in a bad light.

So folks from one Hobbit to men elf and dwarf alike please can we start using just a little personal responsibility on this forum? Seriously lets bring the community back to where it was when I started playing. The devs make the game but a lot of times we are the ones keep players and getting new ones.

I'd like to hear some responses how the community was when you got here and if you think it has changed as I do.

I agree completely. This seems to have occurred around the time it went F2P and the influx of new people into the game. I didn't have a clue what to do when I started in 2008-2009 and the forums and Lorebook were my best friend until I found my kin. Now I spend a lot less time in the forums. +Rep for your post and for a positive post in the forums :-)

Peace!
Haladain

Not native English. My apologies for grammar and spelling mistakes

I'll share my thoughts on this.

I think that somewhere around Isengard this company entered in "milking mode". Bugs are not addressed unless they really disturb the drop balances,content is constantly droped into the game but the bugs it brings are mostly ignored,community complaints and/or suggestions have little to no effect and so the older players started to migrate to other MMO's. The behaviour of the community changed from Moria,when the game was brought to free-to-play,to the community we have today because the "nice" behaviour that was the norm back then and was "passed down" to the new players became more and more diluted as the older players started to leave and the new players brouht in the more "agressive" stance that seems to be the norm in most of MMO's nowadays.

I came to this game when it was opened to free-to-play and i felt these changes but for good or bad this is what we have today and i think that it will be difficult to revert it.

i dont think that everyone changed but you. Community never changed, you did. You lost your illusions and trying to go back on the past to recover them. Life dont work that way.

I don't think the community has changed, but the topics of conversation have. There has been much to complain about, so the forums have been filled with such complaints and anger and frustration. When the problems are worked out and the air cleared, the forums will settle back to mid-point, a healthy mix of humor, help, and trolling, lol. I play WoW too, and LOTRO at the same time. I don't find one to be superior to the other, just different.
Oh - joined two tears ago f2p.

I've been here in these forums since launch day way back in 2007. To me, the forums were a lot more vicious and mean back then. Posters making totally ridiculous comments like Turbine was sexist because there were more male quest givers than female, the forum trolls were alot more meaner too. Undying's trolling is nothing compared to the likes of Travia or Shevensmith. And the lore fanatics that insulted anyone that did not mind some deviations from the lore.

The feeling that I get from the community now is that everyone is tired and wore out. Tired of a beta forum that is approaching 3 years. Pvpers are tired of waiting for a new zone.

I don't see the energy in the forum members that I did years ago. I see a feeling of resignation that things will not change.

I think this is a trend of every single internet forum to be honest. As soon as someone gets 'out-debated' or a series of counter points are posted in response to their 'amazing idea', instead of trying to debate further or argue against the counter points they simply do one of the following

1) Accuse the poster of trolling
2) Use a latin phrase to counter the argument in an attempt to make themselves look more intelligent
3) Accuse the poster of a 'straw-man' argument - I have no idea what this is btw but I see people bring it out all the time now.
4) Try to find any element of hypocrisy or conflict in repvious posts and jump all over it

In my experience it tends to be people who are unable or too lazy to respond to posts propely who resort to the above.

World Peace has a higher chance of happening than getting any MMO Forum to a place of constructive discussion as the norm. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by warriorpoetex

World Peace has a higher chance of happening than getting any MMO Forum to a place of constructive discussion as the norm. :)

---

Yup but it is worth trying. I have made a vow to myself that I will use personal responsibility when I use the forum from now on. I was hoping some other might read this thread and think about it for a second and maybe how it effects the game.

I think you exaggerate the issue, there is a lot of complaining but most of it is constructive and genuine, I see less trolling here than elsewhere and indeed less here now than I have in the past.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nymphonic

I don't see the energy in the forum members that I did years ago. I see a feeling of resignation that things will not change.

---

I also agree with Nymphonic about there being a certain sense of resignation in peoples posts, there is a lot less passion in these forums than there used to be. I think we are getting to the point where the community enjoy the game but no longer get excited by it which is sad.

if the game gets back to where it needs to be i'm sure the community will follow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider

3) Accuse the poster of a 'straw-man' argument - I have no idea what this is btw but I see people bring it out all the time now.

---

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider

3) Accuse the poster of a 'straw-man' argument - I have no idea what this is btw but I see people bring it out all the time now.

---

A strawman [argument] is a well-known argument distraction technique, basically it means someone counter argues with a point that's entirely artificial, which he proceeds to deploy as a diversionary tactic because he has no real counter argument.

Not sure of the 'latin' you refer to, 'ad hominem' would fit the bill and it's yet another distraction technique, where the 'troll' attacks on a personal level rather than addressing the issue: a typical one being "you're only level 20, wait till you're 85" in an argument where the level of one's character is entirely irrelevant but put forward as a reason to dismiss the other person as having worthless views.

I actually think the crappiness of these forums has something to do with this. Getting logged out constantly, having your wall'o'text posts getting erased wouldn't do wonders for people's temperaments I imagine, and it's hardly uncommon for people to take out their frustration over one thing on something else.

Interesting post and equally interesting responses. A few additional considerations (i.e. The Great Wall of Text) would include the following:

1. Some people are afraid that Turbine is desperately struggling financially and isn't adequately able to maintain the game or to continue to add content. Therefore, every time someone makes a suggestion, people for whom this suggestion is not a number one priority panic, because they believe implementation of that suggestion will take supposedly scarce resources away from the changes they feel are the number one priority. This leads to the 'The game is fine as is--if you don't like it, leave' arguments.

2. The breaking of the community site (not just forum problems, I'm primarily thinking blogs) at the time of f2p release (which has nothing to do with f2p, just same timing), drove away many of the great community ambassadors to other sites and discouraged new ones from taking their place. When the blogs were full of good fiction, poetry, game guides, music, artwork, etc., and those posts were prominently displayed and easy to find on the site, there was this great creative energy that made me, and maybe others, really excited about the game. It made me want to be a part of this mature, fun, creative community and helped me see an entertainment potential beyond just a pew-pew video game. Those folks are gone now, as are many other positive contributors to the forum community who simply gave up on trying to post (I'm taking bets on how many times I get logged out while posting this).

3. The new pattern of releasing pieces of expansions instead of entire expansions together has fueled the argument between people of different play styles. People have short memories and forget which pieces were actually part of the same development cycle. Players waiting on group content get annoyed that they have to wait on their content while others are happily doing the new solo content. Soloers get annoyed when the group content finally comes out because the groupers have received new content and they haven't. Both groups get annoyed when one or the other group comments on needed fixes to 'their' content or classes or systems because they feel that any fixes will mean that Turbine is focusing on somebody else's play style at the expense of their own (see point 1). It divides the community into 'us' and 'them'.

4. The bandaid approach to fixing things (like loot imbalances) by allowing a certain type of player to benefit from a problematic system for a brief period of time, then responding to complaints by simply dropping the feature entirely (like taking loot out of dailies, symbols away from Durchest and presumably BfE t1 soon, etc.) rather than taking the time to come up with a balanced, thoughtful system that benefits all players, accomplishes nothing other than to foster negative attitudes and further divide people. I know there is pressure to fix things quickly, but when Turbine takes its time and really thinks through a workable approach (as they did with the involuntary emote toggle for example), so many more people are happy.

5. As the game ages and adds content/features/systems, things break more often and more dramatically, and people want to hear that their concerns are being heard. There are few Turbine staff who engage with the community in a meaningful way (Scarycrow is to me the best example of positive and meaningful interaction) to ask about their concerns and really talk about them in a satisfactory level of detail, with respect and thoughtfulness.

What can we do? Stay, and remember that our fellow players are the reason that our beloved source of entertainment still exists, regardless of how our opinions differ. Always try to set an example of positive, constructive collaboration when making suggestions or voicing concerns. And remember that behind every forum post is a real human being.

The good old days. hmm very often an illusory construct, and as some have metioned its more about the person then events, more often then not even the word communtiy is an illsion of tranquality and harmonious relationships. Askk yourself is where you live all fluffy rabbits and dancing round the may pole.

The community has changed. This is a result of several things that has happened since launch.

• The game is six years old. Time alone is usually enough to change the nature of such an open forum. The novelty can only last so long.
• Went Free-to-Play. Massive influx of new players means a massive change in community.
• US and EU under one roof. The merging of two very different communities.
• Changes to the community management. Different people, different moderation.
• Most importantly, the constant changes to the design mentality of the game and how it is being commercialized. For the better or worse, changes to the game changes the community. The forums are just a platform to discuss the game and related subjects. What we talk about and how we talk about it are direct results of our game experience.

I know you are just asking people to be nicer. Yet it's naive to expect the community would "get back to where it needs to be" just through a forced sense of personal responsibility. A masquerade of niceness will only cover things up for a while, and it will just crumble again to reveal how people actually feel.

Bonus: There is also the utter disgrace that is the community website itself... Not just the forums, but everything attached to it. I forgot to mention this on my first attempt to post, but getting logged out reminded me to add it. Thanks Turbine.

http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps11e38db6.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoonwalkIntoMordor

The community has changed. This is a result of several things that has happened since launch.

• The game is six years old. Time alone is usually enough to change the nature of such an open forum. The novelty can only last so long.
• Went Free-to-Play. Massive influx of new players means a massive change in community.
• US and EU under one roof. The merging of two very different communities.
• Changes to the community management. Different people, different moderation.
• Most importantly, the constant changes to the design mentality of the game and how it is being commercialized. For the better or worse, changes to the game changes the community. The forums are just a platform to discuss the game and related subjects. What we talk about and how we talk about it are direct results of our game experience.

I know you are just asking people to be nicer. Yet it's naive to expect the community would "get back to where it needs to be" just through a forced sense of personal responsibility. A masquerade of niceness will only cover things up for a while, and it will just crumble again to reveal how people actually feel.

Bonus: There is also the utter disgrace that is the community website itself... Not just the forums, but everything attached to it. I forgotten to mention this on my first attempt to post, but getting logged out reminded me to add it. Thanks Turbine.

http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps11e38db6.jpg

---

Well. That seems to sum it up. I still would like to see more elaborate posts. When I first started there seemed to be more music and player run events like concerts, artwork, and the like. That would definitely make the game more exciting an interesting to new players. On the other hand, some players that have been here a while DO seem to ostricize "Noob"s and Noops, even on the forums, which may lead to less interaction on the forums with plenty of creative people. I have not got logged out, but this has been auto-saved 4 times in the -make that 5- in the short time it took me to write this. Thank you LotRO!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whart

2. The breaking of the community site (not just forum problems, I'm primarily thinking blogs) at the time of f2p release (which has nothing to do with f2p, just same timing), drove away many of the great community ambassadors to other sites and discouraged new ones from taking their place. When the blogs were full of good fiction, poetry, game guides, music, artwork, etc., and those posts were prominently displayed and easy to find on the site, there was this great creative energy that made me, and maybe others, really excited about the game. It made me want to be a part of this mature, fun, creative community and helped me see an entertainment potential beyond just a pew-pew video game. Those folks are gone now, as are many other positive contributors to the forum community who simply gave up on trying to post (I'm taking bets on how many times I get logged out while posting this).

---

This is definitely true for me, and for how many more I cannot count. Sadly, the platform used to help build and maintain our community has become more of an impediment than an implement in that regard.

And it looks like the blogging feature is going to be done away with entirely: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ging-Community

Whart, I am sure you have your journal saved somewhere besides here, but if not, please do so. Your writing is far too precious to lose.

+rep for you sir :) I am feeling bad that i missed these times of LotRO. But your thread made me at least see how nice it was :)



PS:

Quote:

---

So folks from one Hobbit to men elf and dwarf alike

---

I cannot believe you started hobbit with a capital and not the rest. That is racist :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nymphonic

I've been here in these forums since launch day way back in 2007. To me, the forums were a lot more vicious and mean back then. Posters making totally ridiculous comments like Turbine was sexist because there were more male quest givers than female, the forum trolls were alot more meaner too. Undying's trolling is nothing compared to the likes of Travia or Shevensmith. And the lore fanatics that insulted anyone that did not mind some deviations from the lore.

The feeling that I get from the community now is that everyone is tired and wore out. Tired of a beta forum that is approaching 3 years. Pvpers are tired of waiting for a new zone.

I don't see the energy in the forum members that I did years ago. I see a feeling of resignation that things will not change.

---

This sums up my feelings as well. I started 2 years later and am mostly a reader not a poster but I have noted a lack of excitement lately. Lotro is a fabulous game and hopefully with the revamp of the forums people will be able to post longer, more expressive posts without getting logged out. Perhaps that may generate more thoughtful and positive discussion of the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider

1) Accuse the poster of trolling

---

For too many, the definition of trolling is "disagreed with me and did so in a way I can't cogently reply to."

Quote:

---

2) Use a latin phrase to counter the argument in an attempt to make themselves look more intelligent

---

A fortiori (doesn't fit, but it was the first Latin phrase I could think of).

Quote:

---

3) Accuse the poster of a 'straw-man' argument - I have no idea what this is btw but I see people bring it out all the time now.

---

FYI, a straw man argument means assigning to the other side a position they do not not hold then attacking them based on that non-held position.

Quote:

---

4) Try to find any element of hypocrisy or conflict in repvious posts and jump all over it

---

Well, hypocrisy is pretty telling.

Quote:

---

In my experience it tends to be people who are unable or too lazy to respond to posts propely who resort to the above.

---

And don't forget attacking the person's spelling/typos. :p

Re: the OP, the forums are no more and no less rancorous than they have ever been.

I'll give some examples of what I have seen recently that disturbed me:

1. A page full of troll posts about 1 st age weapons
2. Several threads that underlying are trying to start a flame war between different playstyles
3. Posters linking definitions from wiki when tearing someones opinion to shreds

There probably a few more that I can not think of. One of the big reasons why I left WOW was that forum was still 100 times more bad off than this one. So yeah I'm not naive about the internet. Seeing the page full of closed posts was the most alarming part.

I have been here from the get go.

I'm not sure if the community has changed but it seems to me 90% of the posts in the General Forum, are complaints or criticisms of how the game has progressed.

If someone is not overly annoyed with the complaint in question, posts as such, they get flamed (I use the term loosely for several types of over-reactions).

This leads moderate posters to avoid these threads and you end up with flame wars between competing shouters.

There are some exceptions, but this type of forum behavior is not condusive to enlightened discussion. To be so entrenched in a position you feel the need to bombastically refute and resist ANY opposing veiwpoint, is not benefitting your cause. It is only making people over-react to your over-reaction, or just tune out completely.

My opinion is there are likely still reasonable posters out there, they are just being drowned out for the most part by the ruckus. The community is still here, they are just wary of wasting effort, putting out opinions that go in one 'eye' and out the other.

I'm afraid these days the following terms are used ' Fanboi, Troll, Turbine hater, Turbine Lover ' these are the root of a lot of posts if people slate Turbine or defend their actions. Times sadly have changed and not wholly for the better.

The problem is a lot of people have their own idea how LOTRO should progress in terms of content and what they look want as their primary gamestyle and this clashes with others.

Mix this in with Turbine being unable to product the content its explosion waiting to happen.

What I see from being here daily for past 3-4 years:

1. Forum activity has decreased a lot. It flares up, like right now with the recent loot nerfs, but last 6 months has been very light compared to past years. General Forums does not get much activity now compared to other times. But the game population is down a lot - so it makes sense.

2. A handful of the same posters over and over again post and tend to dominate threads, by either derailing the thread by posting a contrary, thoughtless point of view and then arguing with everyone in the thread, or having a strong opinion (like being against any PvP improvements) and very strongly arguing against anyone who disagrees (thereby dominating the thread).

3. I feel right now there is really a lack of diversity of views in most threads - due to one or two dozen posters dominating the threads. I do see all the people who post occasionally and am really happy when I can read what they think. Probably just me, but I am less interested in reading the same poster say the same thing over and over (haha which I am very guilty of!).

4. I feel like SO many players who were really into the game have left - usually in disappointment or dismay - and so a lot of their enthusiasm and intelligent contributions are gone from the forums. Honestly, I feel like the forums are a shadow of their past selves - except for the great times when people who rarely post do in fact post.

5. There are tons of people who post with positive arguments/pro-Turbine views. They can dominate threads when people have complaints, and even troll the posters. This thread disgusts me (I agree with the OP and feel the responses had no compassion for the OP). Maybe the OP would not win a debate, and did not write too politely, but he is clearly young and IMO had some legitimate points (whether or not you agree with them, and he still deserves respect). People could have been nicer to the OP, IMO.

6. I think there is also a lot of cynical people and a lot of mistrust of Turbine and the forum moderators. Not everyone, but I think there are a lot of people reading the forums (and people who post a lot) who feel unhappy with the game and don't trust Turbine to do things well or the best for the players.

tl;dr
I think the forums have changed a lot. Lots of long time dedicated players/posters are gone; lots of new people here; not much life on the forums now except when Turbine does something major people want to comment on.

The game still has a great community - even on the forums.

Just to preface this... I'm a transplant here from CITY OF HEROES, where I'd been for over five years. The difference between the two communities is, well... significant, to say the least. (And while I never thought I'd be saying this, it seems there IS a more obnoxious forum software than what we used to have over in COH.)

Much moreso here than there is the wide disparity of opinion over the devs (read: Turbine). Over there, I'd say it was 75% support and appreciation, 20% complaints, 5% apathy. Here, it's more like 30% support, 50% complaints, 20% apathy. (Which is kinda sad, really.)

Twenty threads on the first page all about the same thing - it's like no one checks the forums before creating a thread.

I think the last time I was on a forum in the straits that this one is, was back when I-13 was going live (the big PvP changes and a rather infamous comment from one of the community moderators that led to a backlash the likes of which I hope I never see again). It was almost impossible to find a constructive thread during those days.

I try to be of good cheer on here - answer questions where I can (for what little I know, only been here since Sept of 2012, really), post the occasional bit of humour, started the LotRO forum drinking game, that sort of thing. But I'd like to think that maybe, when the forums get the overhaul they so desperately need, maybe they'll get the emotional overhaul they need as well. We can only hope.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minquinn

As someone who has played 4 MMO's in my experience the community is what attracts new players to the game. After I quit WOW I wanted to play a game that had a great community so I could easily integrate myself into the game and learned everything I had to know to make my experience enjoyable.

When I first started looking for new games I did extensive research before picking a game. This included youtube videos, wiki's and asking around with friends to see what was a really great game. Something I also did was hit up the forums before playing said game. The general forum. After checking out some f2p games at the time I chose to play DDO. I was familiar with the DND universe (something we played as teenagers) and I wanted to come home. Even though the forum community was great the in game community was not there.

That's when I decided to play this game. Before I did I saw a great video about the difference between WOW and LOTRO that helped me make my decision. My next step was to check out the general discussion forum. This was back in the days when the Moria xpac was out going into the MW xpac. Way back then the forum community was exactly what I was looking for. The posts were basically players helping other players. Good feedback about the game and some valid complaints as well.

I'm not sure what exactly happened because mainly I used the forum to fix the game, figure out a quest, find a kin or just ask questions. Sometimes I offered some suggestions about the content. So, over the last couple weeks that I have been revisiting the general discussion forum I've seen some disturbing behavior. I've gotta tell ya if I was choosing a new MMO and using the general forum as a basis for my decision I would have avoided this game like the plague.

I know we are in a new error of the internet where some believe flaming or trolling is acceptable and makes you look cool. But I think that we all including myself need to think about what we are typing. Do we want to grow this game? Do we want it to end up like WOW, where every single thread gets trolled or flamed. I don't think we do. If anything bringing new players to the game actually helps the community. It starts right here with us the players.

The attitudes from some of the posters/thread starters is showing us in a bad light.

So folks from one Hobbit to men elf and dwarf alike please can we start using just a little personal responsibility on this forum? Seriously lets bring the community back to where it was when I started playing. The devs make the game but a lot of times we are the ones keep players and getting new ones.

I'd like to hear some responses how the community was when you got here and if you think it has changed as I do.

---

The community is what the game has made it. Honestly, i dont want turbine making money off of this game, so i dont want people coming in. It is not the game it once was which is why so many people are upset, and why the forum behavior is declining. Before i call for a change in forum behavior, or start complimenting turbine is when i actually see something that deserves a compliment. Once /if this game ever gets back some of its former glory then i will gladly start trying to help rather than argue.

"Twenty threads on the first page all about the same thing - it's like no one checks the forums before creating a thread".

Saw this and had to comment. I feel the reason here is, someone starts a thread on their pet topic, it does not get the traction or attention they want or it goes in a direction other than they would prefers, so...

Take a different tack in a new thread, rehashing the same stuff, only to see a similar pattern of indifference, and possibly antagonism now...

Rinse repeat....

The main problem is the devlopers.

They want us to pay in advance for some promises that they even can't hold.

They whant us to pay as much as we paid for MoM for the new expansion-packs. But we don't get even near the same amount of content on day 1.

The devlopers are lazy, the quality of this game have went down alot. The client is &&&&ty as heck.

They make som crazy changes. Of course I am upset!? And what bother me most is the people that accept everything turbines do. The really got no sense for quality. They'r happy with everything, even if it's as bad as it would be something on alpha-stage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TexN

The main problem is the developers.

They want us to pay in advance for some promises that they even can't hold.

They whant us to pay as much as we paid for MoM for the new expansion-packs. But we don't get even near the same amount of content on day 1.

The devlopers are lazy, the quality of this game have went down alot. The client is &&&&ty as heck.

They make som crazy changes. Of course I am upset!? And what bother me most is the people that accept everything turbines do. The really got no sense for quality. They'r happy with everything, even if it's as bad as it would be something on alpha-stage.

---

This has moved from happenstance to trend, and people are upset. This mentality that it is ok to sell us unfinished content and then string us along, telling us the unreleased content that was promised intially is being fine tuned is such an underhanded business model. Especially when the reality is that the content was no where close to ready in the first place, and after an excessive waiting period it still has plenty of bugs when it released.

Turbine needs to add some more/better employees so that this kind of drawn out expansion doesnt happen again, and regain some measure of professionalism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkrist

This is definitely true for me, and for how many more I cannot count. Sadly, the platform used to help build and maintain our community has become more of an impediment than an implement in that regard.

And it looks like the blogging feature is going to be done away with entirely: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ging-Community

Whart, I am sure you have your journal saved somewhere besides here, but if not, please do so. Your writing is far too precious to lose.

---

Ugh, I wondered when they would finally decide to completely offload the creative community--they simply don't get that the bloggers draw positive attention to the site and the game. And thanks for your kind words. I saved and actually started dismantling my page once I realized that they had broken many of the editing features. All I really do now is a little forum posting, and even that interest is waning. Time to take my writing adventures in a completely different direction and to a completely different venue, methinks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whart

Ugh, I wondered when they would finally decide to completely offload the creative community--they simply don't get that the bloggers draw positive attention to the site and the game. And thanks for your kind words. I saved and actually started dismantling my page once I realized that they had broken many of the editing features. All I really do now is a little forum posting, and even that interest is waning. Time to take my writing adventures in a completely different direction and to a completely different venue, methinks.

---

If I can save blogging features I will (though they may not be part of the initial relaunch of the site even if I do manage to pull that off). Though any blogs in the future would probably end up being the Vbulletin built in blogs and not wordpress as they are now. I've gone round and round with this with the web team and I can honestly say that having seen the issues with integrating WP with the sites and the major issues it creates on the backend (including issues with the WP software itself), I can understand why it's not on the web team's list of favorite things.

I've also made it clear that based on feedback I would happily take a nuclear option of blowing everything away and having just basic forum functionality if it meant we can have a faster system and reliable ability for players to log in and post. We've gotten the ball rolling, and a new site is coming, but there will be systems that are removed because they simply are too fragile and cause much of the issues players report on a regular basis.

I'd like to think I'm right in saying we'd all like more reliability and are willing to lose some features to get it. Yes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

I'd like to think I'm right in saying we'd all like more reliability and are willing to lose some features to get it. Yes?

---

The only myLOTRO feature I'm addicted to is the lottery. I don't know why, because I rarely win anything.

I realize it's a lot of work to maintain, and it relies on live character data on the back end, which is even more difficult to maintain. Still, I think that you really can't go wrong with the good publicity that comes with giving free stuff away to the community.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

I'd like to think I'm right in saying we'd all like more reliability and are willing to lose some features to get it. Yes?

---

Yes, 100%! I would be more than willing to lose the bells and whistles for more reliability.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fredelas

The only myLOTRO feature I'm addicted to is the lottery. I don't know why, because I rarely win anything.

I realize it's a lot of work to maintain, and it relies on live character data on the back end, which is even more difficult to maintain. Still, I think that you really can't go wrong with the good publicity that comes with giving free stuff away to the community.

---

This is one feature I have made clear is one I'm taking 'to the bunker' when the nukes come. The web team is trying to figure out how to make that happen. And make the system more stable and better at the same time.;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

If I can save blogging features I will (though they may not be part of the initial relaunch of the site even if I do manage to pull that off). Though any blogs in the future would probably end up being the Vbulletin built in blogs and not wordpress as they are now. I've gone round and round with this with the web team and I can honestly say that having seen the issues with integrating WP with the sites and the major issues it creates on the backend (including issues with the WP software itself), I can understand why it's not on the web team's list of favorite things.

I've also made it clear that based on feedback I would happily take a nuclear option of blowing everything away and having just basic forum functionality if it meant we can have a faster system and reliable ability for players to log in and post. We've gotten the ball rolling, and a new site is coming, but there will be systems that are removed because they simply are too fragile and cause much of the issues players report on a regular basis.

I'd like to think I'm right in saying we'd all like more reliability and are willing to lose some features to get it. Yes?

---

/signed

I know you dislike when people post that, but I'm agreeing with you SO, how ya like them apples eh?! :p

It makes my hearth blissful to read this thread and realize there's people willing to transcend the experience of Lotro. Is not just playing a game and getting enrage with people, developers and drops rates. Is building solidarity and understanding things works better if you put your individual needs of an arrogant egocentric-self aside.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

This is one feature I have made clear is one I'm taking 'to the bunker' when the nukes come. The web team is trying to figure out how to make that happen. And make the system more stable and better at the same time.;)

---

If it was me, I'd just tie the lottery in with the instance finder. You don't use it? You will!... or no boots for you!

muahahahaha!!!



(Wait... There's actually a "web team"???....)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minquinn

I'd like to hear some responses how the community was when you got here and if you think it has changed as I do.

---

I've been a part of the community for about five years and the only thing I can say with certainty is that the community is bigger now than when I arrived.

I think it's every bit as passionate, personable, and pugnacious as it ever was; there are just more voices to sift through today.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fredelas

I've been a part of the community for about five years and the only thing I can say with certainty is that the community is bigger now than when I arrived.

I think it's every bit as passionate, personable, and pugnacious as it ever was; there are just more voices to sift through today.

---

Happy people tend to happily play the game, unhappy people tend to take time out to vent frustrations on the forum.

If anything had an effect on the lotro community it from post moria onwards it was symptomatic of quicker level capping and lots of easy solo content. There was less of a period of meeting and sharing the game experience with people as you made your way to cap. Odd as it sounds that I feel had a profound effect on the community.

The games player base became more mature and with it expectations to chase how good an experience it was, if you get angry people on the forum, I think its just because gamewise, the biggest high folks got was early on. I don't envy anyone trying to please everyone now.

But I suppose the more commercial you make your game, the more people expect it wo deliver in return?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

I'd like to think I'm right in saying we'd all like more reliability and are willing to lose some features to get it. Yes?

---

No, not exactly. I'd like more reliability with the existing features staying intact and the blogs brought back to where they were pre-f2p, personally. I miss the strong community and creative energy of those days. But I understand the rationale regarding the technical issues and appreciate your interest in keeping the blogs if possible.

But here's a spontaneous idea: if blogs don't make it into the new site, how about giving us a 'creative endeavors' forum section, with some subsections along the lines of art, character fiction, music, miscellaneous (poetry, comics, humor)? The specific subcategories of course can be tweaked, but give us some way to bring together the members of the community who enjoy that side of the game experience. Right now there are some character bios and tales in the RP forum, others on server forums, the music has a separate place, screenshots/comics/original art are scattered all over the place. Give us a prominently featured place to find each other's work. It doesn't replace individually designed blog pages and the good organization such pages provide, but it's at least some kind of connection to the old creative spirit.

Thoughts?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

I've also made it clear that based on feedback I would happily take a nuclear option of blowing everything away and having just basic forum functionality if it meant we can have a faster system and reliable ability for players to log in and post.

---

+1

Basics first. Like links working. Or logins working first try. Or pages loading. Thank you.

Cheers,
Gloimli @ Windfola

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

If I can save blogging features I will (though they may not be part of the initial relaunch of the site even if I do manage to pull that off). Though any blogs in the future would probably end up being the Vbulletin built in blogs and not wordpress as they are now. I've gone round and round with this with the web team and I can honestly say that having seen the issues with integrating WP with the sites and the major issues it creates on the backend (including issues with the WP software itself), I can understand why it's not on the web team's list of favorite things.

I've also made it clear that based on feedback I would happily take a nuclear option of blowing everything away and having just basic forum functionality if it meant we can have a faster system and reliable ability for players to log in and post. We've gotten the ball rolling, and a new site is coming, but there will be systems that are removed because they simply are too fragile and cause much of the issues players report on a regular basis.

I'd like to think I'm right in saying we'd all like more reliability and are willing to lose some features to get it. Yes?

---

As a forum user that has been fighting with the terrible state of these forums since their "beta" re-introduction I'd rather have nothing but forums that work then all the bells and whistles and have the current terrible forums state.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

This is one feature I have made clear is one I'm taking 'to the bunker' when the nukes come. The web team is trying to figure out how to make that happen. And make the system more stable and better at the same time.;)

---

The lotto is a favourite feature of mine, as well. As for the player blogs, I've never used them but I can see why people would be upset at their removal. I've always liked the idea that they exist, at any rate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

This is one feature I have made clear is one I'm taking 'to the bunker' when the nukes come. The web team is trying to figure out how to make that happen. And make the system more stable and better at the same time.;)

---

I'd have to agree that the Lotteries would be far and away the last bit I'd give up, but equally, I'd happily throw them to the lions if that is what it took to get the basics running well.

That said, the forums have been way less twitchy for me over the last couple of weeks; probably just luring me into a false sense of security. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minquinn

As someone who has played 4 MMO's in my experience the community is what attracts new players to the game. After I quit WOW I wanted to play a game that had a great community so I could easily integrate myself into the game and learned everything I had to know to make my experience enjoyable.

When I first started looking for new games I did extensive research before picking a game. This included youtube videos, wiki's and asking around with friends to see what was a really great game. Something I also did was hit up the forums before playing said game. The general forum. After checking out some f2p games at the time I chose to play DDO. I was familiar with the DND universe (something we played as teenagers) and I wanted to come home. Even though the forum community was great the in game community was not there.

That's when I decided to play this game. Before I did I saw a great video about the difference between WOW and LOTRO that helped me make my decision. My next step was to check out the general discussion forum. This was back in the days when the Moria xpac was out going into the MW xpac. Way back then the forum community was exactly what I was looking for. The posts were basically players helping other players. Good feedback about the game and some valid complaints as well.

I'm not sure what exactly happened because mainly I used the forum to fix the game, figure out a quest, find a kin or just ask questions. Sometimes I offered some suggestions about the content. So, over the last couple weeks that I have been revisiting the general discussion forum I've seen some disturbing behavior. I've gotta tell ya if I was choosing a new MMO and using the general forum as a basis for my decision I would have avoided this game like the plague.

I know we are in a new error of the internet where some believe flaming or trolling is acceptable and makes you look cool. But I think that we all including myself need to think about what we are typing. Do we want to grow this game? Do we want it to end up like WOW, where every single thread gets trolled or flamed. I don't think we do. If anything bringing new players to the game actually helps the community. It starts right here with us the players.

The attitudes from some of the posters/thread starters is showing us in a bad light.

So folks from one Hobbit to men elf and dwarf alike please can we start using just a little personal responsibility on this forum? Seriously lets bring the community back to where it was when I started playing. The devs make the game but a lot of times we are the ones keep players and getting new ones.

I'd like to hear some responses how the community was when you got here and if you think it has changed as I do.

---

As long as we are trying to “get things to where they need to be”, there will be no progress from our actions. Sure change/progress/reversals will happen on their own, but not by our efforts. All we can do is evolve as individuals.

Quote:

---

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Albert Einstein

---

Quote:

---

No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.
Albert Einstein

---

So, unless a great leader emerges among us , I say let things run their course and don’t sweat the small stuff. (hint: it is all small stuff) Naturally, running their course includes threads like this and posts in it like mine. So we are all good here.

Okay, my opinions for what they're worth.

The introduction of F2P at first had a rather unsettling effect, because we got in a segment of the player population who will try anything, so long as it's free, and when they find (as in practically every "F2P" game I've ever heard of) that F2P isn't free, it starts out free and then you have to pay for every little element that you'd get thrown in if you subscribed: whereupon you either pay for all the little elements with genuine money, or you quit.

Some of the F2Pers said "[Verb] this" and went on to the next game (there's always a next game); others settled down to pay their money for every little bit at a time. The former are, for the most part, gone; the latter have settled in and stayed and become part of the LotRO community.

I don't think the higher incidence of bugs lately has anything to do with F2P; I think it happened when the venture capitalists who some years back bought Turbine away from Microsoft (N.B.: M$ did not own Turbine, but it published its games), turned around and sold it to WB, an organization which has kept itself in business for over a century by making sure that everything it did made money and brought it in on schedule, and if quality had to be sacrificed, who cared? Certainly not Jack Warner. (Who died some years ago, but the memory lingers on....)

What I don't know is whether F2P went in before or after WB bought Turbine. Anybody know?

As I stated in the original post, I was wondering about everyone's opinions on the General Forum. Even Sapience has come into this thread and talk about the lottery, blog and other features. Please folks lets stay on track. Is what has been happening over the last month or so in the general forum become disturbing to anyone. We all know there are problems with the other features of the community. Those opinions should be saved for a different thread or a new one.

General Forum your thoughts are welcome. As you can see I have policed my own posts in relationship to this thread. This includes a certain someone that I maybe had a flame war in the past who has posted here. So I think I am taking a good first step. I think we all can.

All the post that pertain to the subject have been enlightening and mainly because I really only glanced at these forums in the past for the reasons previously stated. The truth is I love playing the game so much I don't have alot of time to read the forum. So maybe it was culture shock a little when I saw some of the disturbing behavior.

I started playing in 2008, I guess, and I've always thought the community was awful. I had only played F2P games before, so I was used to people talking to strangers and whatnot. So it was a shock to see a game's community so quiet and unfriendly. Most F2P games I've played you literally couldn't go a second without a guild without someone asking to join.

Here, I've played probably 3000 hours over 5 years and never had anyone ask. (And posting in the guild sections here sure didn't help, either)

When it went F2P, it got a little friendlier, but then it went back to normal.

But as the game's goal have changed, now catering to raiders only it seems, what with giving them the best gear (as opposed to the original days where crafting, questing, and raiding were equal, albeit different), it's gotten much, much worse.

That's what needs to happen - Turbine needs to make everyone in the game the same, not cater only to a few people.

Getting the Community back to where it needs to be

I have read through the thread twice now. I don’t get it. Where does the community need to be? Who is going to make the determination of where it needs to be? How will we implement it? Will it need policing? Will it be better in the long run/short term? What will the costs be? Where do we begin?

It is easy to talk about, but what is the plan? Do we need a plan? What are the benefits of getting the community to where it needs to be? What is the purpose of the thread? Do we just want to express opinions about the subject, or do we want to make the actual change?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

If I can save blogging features I will (though they may not be part of the initial relaunch of the site even if I do manage to pull that off). Though any blogs in the future would probably end up being the Vbulletin built in blogs and not wordpress as they are now.

---

I don't imagine it matters much, but I resisted the lure of my.middle-earth.com to keep blogging here. I have four years of blog entries (RPing the epic quest, mediocre Tolkien fan fiction, random RL opinions), will they all be erased? *starts to cry*

I guess I'd approve of more reliability, it's just... oh Elbereth Gilthoniel, all those entries, all that work (labour of love) to vanish...

​

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

the issues with integrating WP with the sites and the major issues it creates on the backend

---

Managing and maintaining a website, patched around with WP, being part of my day job I testify for you Sapience. Even getting a simplest additional page propagated correctly takes up to an hour's work of code cleanup and rewrite, and I promptly decided (and convinced my employers) to have the site rewritten from scratch, without the WP; which is one of the best blog frameworks available by itself (and one that I do use) but simply no good for anything beyond that.

Quote:

---

I'd like to think I'm right in saying we'd all like more reliability and are willing to lose some features to get it. Yes?

---

Absolutely! Security and stability before fancies.

*sits and waits for a troll to accuse him of "not understanding/knowing" anything and "parroting"*

I just avoid threads that have negative titles and those that might start off well but turn sour from overly aggressive posters.

There have been times when I'm about to log into the game but decide to check the forums for anything interesting. By the time I read a few negative or complaint filled posts that might catch my eye, my enthusiasm is all but gone. Negativity really spreads easily.

Lately I rarely visit the general discussion forum except to look for actual news and interesting threads like this one. I'd rather look through the suggestions forum, the wiki site, or play the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RKL

Getting the Community back to where it needs to be

I have read through the thread twice now. I don’t get it. Where does the community need to be? Who is going to make the determination of where it needs to be? How will we implement it? Will it need policing? Will it be better in the long run/short term? What will the costs be? Where do we begin?

It is easy to talk about, but what is the plan? Do we need a plan? What are the benefits of getting the community to where it needs to be? What is the purpose of the thread? Do we just want to express opinions about the subject, or do we want to make the actual change?

---

In the original thead post I made it clear how the community attracted me to the game. How it influeneces other decisions on playing this game or not if they have not tried it. But as you can see above my thread about the General Forums has become about forum widgets and blogs. Even a forum mod has come into the thread and helped further derail it. So it really doesn't even matter anymore.

Face it if I'm an MMO player looking for a new game and I see the first 3 pages of the general forums I'm looking elsewhere.
The game needs new players to keep spending money so we can keep getting great content.

Since my thread has been taken in a new direction I'll just say after todays nerf bat I am even more worried about the state of the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DestroyerXXXX

I just avoid threads that have negative titles and those that might start off well but turn sour from overly aggressive posters.

There have been times when I'm about to log into the game but decide to check the forums for anything interesting. By the time I read a few negative or complaint filled posts that might catch my eye, my enthusiasm is all but gone. Negativity really spreads easily.

Lately I rarely visit the general discussion forum except to look for actual news and interesting threads like this one. I'd rather look through the suggestions forum, the wiki site, or play the game.

---

TY for the compliment btw.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minquinn

In the original thead post I made it clear how the community attracted me to the game. How it influeneces other decisions on playing this game or not if they have not tried it. But as you can see above my thread about the General Forums has become about forum widgets and blogs. Even a forum mod has come into the thread and helped further derail it. So it really doesn't even matter anymore.

Face it if I'm an MMO player looking for a new game and I see the first 3 pages of the general forums I'm looking elsewhere.
The game needs new players to keep spending money so we can keep getting great content.

Since my thread has been taken in a new direction I'll just say after todays nerf bat I am even more worried about the state of the game.

---

Well, if your idea is for people to change their behavior in posting, (which by its interpersonal nature is ego-driven due to our current level of evolution/fate) then I don’t see much hope for your idea. But who knows, threads have been known to pick up again in activity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

I've also made it clear that based on feedback I would happily take a nuclear option of blowing everything away and having just basic forum functionality if it meant we can have a faster system and reliable ability for players to log in and post. We've gotten the ball rolling, and a new site is coming, but there will be systems that are removed because they simply are too fragile and cause much of the issues players report on a regular basis.

I'd like to think I'm right in saying we'd all like more reliability and are willing to lose some features to get it. Yes?

---

A thousand times thank you. You have no idea how glad this makes me to know that you guys are finally considering getting rid of this unusable and maddening "beta" community site that you foisted onto us several years ago. Words cannot describe how much I hate these forums. They should have been scrapped years ago, but I'll settle for better late than never.

I have played this game for 4 years. I love the game and have no real issues and as for trolling I will leave that to the little kids sniggering behind their screens. The community is just like the world. There are a huge diversity of people and ideas and just like the real life community you live in, there are a proporion of people who are never happy with anything, continually moan and complain. While the forum is used for genuine issues it also attracts the whiners. The game isn't perfect but what is and I would doubt other MMO forums are full of constant praise for the product.
As I said, I love this game and get a lot of joy out of it. If folks get too frustrated (unless they are just wasting time trolling) with Turbine and the game, they should just move on as they always threaten to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ferdinanda

I don't imagine it matters much, but I resisted the lure of my.middle-earth.com to keep blogging here. I have four years of blog entries (RPing the epic quest, mediocre Tolkien fan fiction, random RL opinions), will they all be erased? *starts to cry*

I guess I'd approve of more reliability, it's just... oh Elbereth Gilthoniel, all those entries, all that work (labour of love) to vanish...

---

Please do not let that happen, Molly. Your writings and those of Sophie and Olalie and Perlina are far too precious to let fade away.

After I get some rest, I will try to post a guide showing how to import your journal here to one at mymiddleearth with (hopefully!) relative ease. I read your writings often, and it would be devastating to see them lost.

I just wish those who have the power to make these decisions truly understood how precious what we have created here really is. Then there would not be any talk about how sacrificing our work to help improve stability and reliability is a worthwhile sacrifice. It would be, like the lotteries, just a given that it is worth saving.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

I've gone round and round with this with the web team and I can honestly say that having seen the issues with integrating WP with the sites and the major issues it creates on the backend (including issues with the WP software itself), I can understand why it's not on the web team's list of favorite things.

---

I couldn't agree with them more, i have a lot of experience working with Wordpress (i've written a lot of plugins and designed dozens of themes, as well as hosting and running six wordpress based web site), Wordpress is a brilliant piece of web software, with great customization options, but only standalone, as soon as you try to integrate it with anything (especially shared logins) you're going to have a bad time of it, best to use something that is built into the system you already use, so yeah if you're going to use vBulletin for the forum (i personally wouldn't, i hate it) then it's best to use a built in blog plugin for vBulletin than to mess around trying to get WP to integrate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minquinn

In the original thead post I made it clear how the community attracted me to the game. How it influeneces other decisions on playing this game or not if they have not tried it. But as you can see above my thread about the General Forums has become about forum widgets and blogs. Even a forum mod has come into the thread and helped further derail it. So it really doesn't even matter anymore.

Face it if I'm an MMO player looking for a new game and I see the first 3 pages of the general forums I'm looking elsewhere.
The game needs new players to keep spending money so we can keep getting great content.

Since my thread has been taken in a new direction I'll just say after todays nerf bat I am even more worried about the state of the game.

---

I think you're missing the point of those posting about the web site: you can't have a positive, thriving, interesting, active community without a working site for that community to post on. As I said in my first post, there are many reasons why the community doesn't seem to be quite what it used to be, and the state of the site itself is one of them. If I'm an MMO player looking for a new game, I'd be looking at the community home page which also has blog posts, service announcements, and a list of the most recent threads, not just those in General Discussion.

If you only want to talk about the General Discussion forum, you're missing a huge piece of the rest of the community. General Discussion, while it occasionally has interesting and useful discussions (and I consider this to be one of them), is the place where the most unhappy players come to get the greatest amount of attention for their bitterness. As Sapience has said many times, if a player has an issue with a specific part of the game, and they want an actual answer from someone who really knows, they will post in the other sections. So you'll see a lot of helpful advice, collaboration, and healthy community activity in sections like questing, instances, cosmetics, and to a lesser extent the RP and server sections. The General Discussion and Suggestions forums are the ones at the very top of the page, the ones that lots of people check regardless of their specific game interests, and therefore the ones where everyone wants to post in so that their pet peeve gets the largest amount of visibility, and often they don't care if people post helpful information or answers, they just want to vent. In other words, those two sections are troll magnets, and you're always going to see some degree of negativity there.

Is it more than ever? Yes and no, in my 4 years of experience. New releases/updates, and the period just before/after they are released, bring huge waves of conspiracy theories, dire predictions, and general craziness about why this or that change was made. Then the madness dies down a bit and other types of conversations surface. A new change is announced, and it starts again.

So don't dismay: your thread has not been derailed, just expanded, as often happens with interesting topics of discussion. A community comes together to talk because we like the social connections and mental stimulation of a good conversation, so we do sometimes go in a variety of directions, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

I'd like to think I'm right in saying we'd all like more reliability and are willing to lose some features to get it. Yes?

---

Well, in my opinion it depends what features. I am a little bit afraid of loosing all the lorebook, kinship/character roster and data.lotro.com functionality there, as it is very useful. Yes, it seems a little bit broken and outdated sometimes, "fragile" as you named it, but I will gladly trade this for some forum slowness, as it is really great stuff for maintaining personal kinship sites. For example, with data.lotro.com we are keeping our member roster up to date, using Lorebook for shared chests item list on our site, etc. I can hardly imagine to do all this stuff manually.

Mmm...

As a mother of three children and having a husband, thus make it 4 children to care for; I tend to have a bit different look at folks behaviors in a forum and in the game itself.


The first observable is a phenomenon that has risen since the advent of the internet: Anonimity

Because we hide behind a "handle" we say and do things we would not normally consider in doing. The less mature a person is, the greater the degree of loss self-restraint, and thus trolling is enabled. Trust me, being an Army wife, and well loved by my husband's unit, if the troller ever shows up by my door, there would be an entire division of rangers willing to explain to him the facts of life. But because there is no real repercusion for our "words" in the internet, people do what they do.


The second observable is that has impacted the community's emotional status is: Scarcity

There are several fairly well defined play styles and preferences, which in an environment of plenty would never have any friction with each other. On the other hand when the providers of the game provides too little new content, ergo scarcity, you see the playing styles turning on each other. Many years ago there was a very interesting psychological study about rats in a tub of water" essentially if you had a plank of wood large enough to allow all the rats to get on it and out of the water, there was peace. But as the scientist made the plank smaller, friction began among the rats for who would get to be on the plank or not; as the plank began to get even smaller, the fights became deadly. That effect is happening here, and the communities are clearly reflecting it.


The third observable is the quality of the game, quality fluctuates over time but when not: Deterioration

Obviously time is hardly generous to anyone of us, oh my aching bones, and so it is true with servers, game engines, coding practices and what not. I have noted in the MMORPG community that the once solid practices of providing a well polished product to the costumer was job #1 and beta testing was truly significant. Now days, I see more and more beta quality software released, and then let the disatisfied customer via complaints identify the problems; and as a result you see the many postings in forums that otherwise would not be present or very rare; add the anonymity factor and it gets ugly real fast.


The fourth observable is the values of a person, and how well they stand to them: Integrity

Here is where all too many of us fall short, we quickly put first our preferences and likes, an immediately discount's those of others. We make no honest judgment to value what others want, much less be able to concede their want may actually be better justified than mine. Too much "me, me", and hardly no "We, we"; "If I don't have it, then they should not have it", "Only I can have, they can't" There are times I read the posts, for instance raiders vs the world, and somehow they remind me of my children's kindergarden age fights.


Oh well hugs

Sue

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by warriorpoetex

World Peace has a higher chance of happening than getting any MMO Forum to a place of constructive discussion as the norm. :)

---

I beg to differ. There is a place where one could have constructive discussions as the norm regarding this particular MMO, aside from the official forums.

Even the simple fact that they would rather have a 'costume festival' (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...01#post6719101) instead of tackling real issues, tells you all you need to know on what their priorities are.

The site is equally important to the community as the game itself. It should meet the same standards and be treated as an equal part of the whole community.

4 years in BETA...very sad state of affairs...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

If I can save blogging features I will (though they may not be part of the initial relaunch of the site even if I do manage to pull that off). Though any blogs in the future would probably end up being the Vbulletin built in blogs and not wordpress as they are now. I've gone round and round with this with the web team and I can honestly say that having seen the issues with integrating WP with the sites and the major issues it creates on the backend (including issues with the WP software itself), I can understand why it's not on the web team's list of favorite things.

I've also made it clear that based on feedback I would happily take a nuclear option of blowing everything away and having just basic forum functionality if it meant we can have a faster system and reliable ability for players to log in and post. We've gotten the ball rolling, and a new site is coming, but there will be systems that are removed because they simply are too fragile and cause much of the issues players report on a regular basis.

I'd like to think I'm right in saying we'd all like more reliability and are willing to lose some features to get it. Yes?

---

Yes. I'd take security, reliability and improved performance over a multitude of features I don't really use. Every day of the week!
The MyLOTRO lotteries are the one thing I do use that I think most people would like to keep, so please, be as steadfast about keeping that as you can.
The Reputation system can get nuked, along with post count and all the different titles that posters have. There should be only 2 tiers really, like Khafar has suggested in the thread named Feedback, New Member for the first month and then Member afterwards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ferdinanda

I don't imagine it matters much, but I resisted the lure of my.middle-earth.com to keep blogging here. I have four years of blog entries (RPing the epic quest, mediocre Tolkien fan fiction, random RL opinions), will they all be erased? *starts to cry*

I guess I'd approve of more reliability, it's just... oh Elbereth Gilthoniel, all those entries, all that work (labour of love) to vanish...

---

It might be time to start thinking about saving them to Word files or something similar. That way, you won't lose all your hard work and effort, which would always be a sad thing in my book.
I know I have lost creative things I've done by not taking due care in the past, so I can empathize with your situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whart

SNIPPED FOR BREVITY

Is it more than ever? Yes and no, in my 4 years of experience. New releases/updates, and the period just before/after they are released, bring huge waves of conspiracy theories, dire predictions, and general craziness about why this or that change was made. Then the madness dies down a bit and other types of conversations surface. A new change is announced, and it starts again.

So don't dismay: your thread has not been derailed, just expanded, as often happens with interesting topics of discussion. A community comes together to talk because we like the social connections and mental stimulation of a good conversation, so we do sometimes go in a variety of directions, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

---

Plus rep for this and your other post in this thread. I find the instance, quests and class forums are pretty much business as usual. There is a request from someone about language use in LOTRO. Lots of helpful, insightful and informative replies there.

We could necro some of the funniest and creative old ones. Sometimes just reestablishing an atmosphere and style of a community, venue, art form or culture is to dust off the old stuff and remember who we were....
I confess to doing this already----to make you smile----http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...78#post6720278

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Acasta

As a mother of three children and having a husband, thus make it 4 children to care for [...].

---

If a man posted something as sexist as that about his wife, I don't think people would brush it aside.

I have also been playing since 2007 and for me what started of as one community has overtime naturally divided into several communities all with their own agendas and opinions. The biggest issue I have with this is the lack of respect for cross community opinions. Why can't we all read a poster thoughts and opinions and respect them for what they are? To some they may not seem important, but obviously they were to the poster. Its basic etiquettecy (or netiquettecy :D).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calta

Plus rep for this and your other post in this thread. I find the instance, quests and class forums are pretty much business as usual. There is a request from someone about language use in LOTRO. Lots of helpful, insightful and informative replies there.

We could necro some of the funniest and creative old ones. Sometimes just reestablishing an atmosphere and style of a community, venue, art form or culture is to dust off the old stuff and remember who we were....
I confess to doing this already----to make you smile----http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...78#post6720278

---

Hehe, that link made it totally worth it to be home sick looking at the forums. I love the old classic humor threads (where's TSK when we need him?).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maxjenius

If a man posted something as sexist as that about his wife, I don't think people would brush it aside.

---

Ayup. As soon as i read that very first line, i disregarded the rest of that post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

I'd like to think I'm right in saying we'd all like more reliability and are willing to lose some features to get it. Yes?

---

Absolutely, 100% yes on this. At this point, I'd choose a full-on vanilla forum with zero bells and whistles if it:

• Would stop logging me out in the middle of posts.
• Would load pages quickly and consistently.
• Would have a secure login.

Once you have all of the above, then adding back in a few things like lotteries or dynamic forum sigs could be done, but only as long as they don't screw up the core uses of a forum.

As for blogs... I guess I'm wondering how many people actually use them. A much as I post, I've never written one, and the only blog entries I've read have been A) ones Orion did a couple of years back, and B) one or two stray blog posts linked by the Suggestions forums. That's it. If they were removed, I doubt I'd ever notice.

I'm certain that some would notice, but really... what percentage? If it's 20%, they're probably worth whatever trouble it takes to keep them running. But what if it's more like 2%? A troublesome feature that 2% of your customers use probably isn't worth keeping, especially when alternatives are abundant.

Khafar

One could argue that there isn't enough challenge in the game to warrant asking for help on the forums anymore.

I remember when Moria came out, completing dungeons with a pick up group was almost unheard of. The dungeons were really really hard to complete and I often came to the forums looking for insight.

Today, you can basically walk into Dale with your eyes closed and complete the challenge mode. Forums not needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minquinn

In the original thead post I made it clear how the community attracted me to the game. How it influeneces other decisions on playing this game or not if they have not tried it. But as you can see above my thread about the General Forums has become about forum widgets and blogs. Even a forum mod has come into the thread and helped further derail it. So it really doesn't even matter anymore.

Face it if I'm an MMO player looking for a new game and I see the first 3 pages of the general forums I'm looking elsewhere.
The game needs new players to keep spending money so we can keep getting great content.

Since my thread has been taken in a new direction I'll just say after todays nerf bat I am even more worried about the state of the game.

---

I am sorry you saw these things as derailing your message. As Whart explained so well, I also believe that these issues do cross over because, behind the discouraging posts you are seeing are the people who post them.

There are so many here that work so hard to create and infuse and build upon the foundation we are provided here, rather than simply point out the negatives over and over. Sadly, a great many have left due to the issues we have brought up, and there can be no doubt that loss has diminished our community. It simply has, there is no way around it.

I remember reading about the upcoming changes, changes that have newly been brought about, when they were first introduced on Bullroarer. I should go back there now and post some of them here, for there were complaints from every class about how the changes would bring about the destruction of their role.

There were even complaints from Champions and Captains, who argued with all they had in them, that they were already in a weakened state, and now no one would ever ask them to come along for an adventure anymore.

Then, right after the changes, I heard of 2 Champions and a Captain going into Goblintown and obliterating all would-be kings in less than half the time anyone in their right mind would Challenge them to do :) There will always be those complaints, no matter how little substance there is to them. Please, do not lose heart to them.

Molly, I am going to try to post that guide about how to migrate your writings here to another place in this thread: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ging-Community so you and any others who wish to save their writings will know how to do so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khafar

As for blogs... I guess I'm wondering how many people actually use them. A much as I post, I've never written one, and the only blog entries I've read have been A) ones Orion did a couple of years back, and B) one or two stray blog posts linked by the Suggestions forums. That's it. If they were removed, I doubt I'd ever notice.

I'm certain that some would notice, but really... what percentage? If it's 20%, they're probably worth whatever trouble it takes to keep them running. But what if it's more like 2%? A troublesome feature that 2% of your customers use probably isn't worth keeping, especially when alternatives are abundant.

Khafar

---

It's a chicken-egg debate, like any discussion about a feature that less than 100% of players use. Turbine invests proportionally in content depending on use data. But if one aspect of the content gets less attention and doesn't work as well or is currently less appealing than other aspects, fewer players will use it. When fewer players use it, Turbine says 'oh look, this type of content isn't popular, so we don't need to invest more in it.' I'd hope that they would not just look at current numbers but also potential use if improvements were made. Blogs have great potential to be a marketing tool for the game by showcasing its potential in a positive light.

Many features of the blogs have been broken since the redesign of the community site at f2p, and many people who actively used the blogs before that time stopped using them because they lost years worth of posts, the feed no longer showed us new posts, user names were disconnected from posts so we could no longer find our friends' or favorite bloggers' new work, the widgets became uneditable, etc. So asking how many people use the largely unusable blogs *now* may not be the right question if we're trying to identify which features have the potential to be an actively used part of the new site. How many people *would* use them if they (a) had the full functionality they used to have, and (b) were as visible as they used to be, might be the better way to approach it, although I don't know how one would get at that kind of answer without some kind of survey or looking at pre-redesign user data.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maxjenius

If a man posted something as sexist as that about his wife, I don't think people would brush it aside.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OnyxSoulbane

Ayup. As soon as i read that very first line, i disregarded the rest of that post.

---

On the other hand. As a former husband, I got a good chuckle out of the line. My guess is that her husband probably would have as well if he read it and most of his Army buddies too. I guess it all depends on where your head is at. I did not find the rest of the post to be particularly interesting, but that line keep me going.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khafar

Absolutely, 100% yes on this. At this point, I'd choose a full-on vanilla forum with zero bells and whistles if it:

• Would stop logging me out in the middle of posts.
• Would load pages quickly and consistently.
• Would have a secure login.

Once you have all of the above, then adding back in a few things like lotteries or dynamic forum sigs could be done, but only as long as they don't screw up the core uses of a forum.

---

/signed

Personally I don't like the way its often implied the free to play players are the ones causing all the problems.

I have a liifetime account, while the store is obviously a bit too intrusive I do think if the game hadn't gone F2P it wouldn't be here any more. Sure there are some problems, bugs not being fixed and it does often look like Turbine are milking us for all they can get and bugs that don't affect us spending money in the store go to the bottom of the pile.

But since its gone F2P I have met many new kin members, the vast vast majority being polite, helpful players, fun to be around and fun to group with.

A few of my kin are lifetime members, many are VIP and many are F2P. I have met just as many rude VIP players as I have F2p and thankfully both those numbers are pretty low.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

I've also made it clear that based on feedback I would happily take a nuclear option of blowing everything away and having just basic forum functionality if it meant we can have a faster system and reliable ability for players to log in and post. We've gotten the ball rolling, and a new site is coming, but there will be systems that are removed because they simply are too fragile and cause much of the issues players report on a regular basis.

I'd like to think I'm right in saying we'd all like more reliability and are willing to lose some features to get it. Yes?

---

As several others have said - YES, this is the route I would like you to undertake. It takes care of the most basic problems and demonstrates the main purpose of the forums, which is obtaining information and understanding.

I'd also like to add that it is obvious by your last statement that you are the player's 'best friend' in this game. You do listen to us and even manage to make sense out of the rabble. Thank you Sapience for your patience and perseverance, I look forward to the simplified but more reliable forum to express my gratitude!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minquinn

As I stated in the original post, I was wondering about everyone's opinions on the General Forum. Even Sapience has come into this thread and talk about the lottery, blog and other features. Please folks lets stay on track. Is what has been happening over the last month or so in the general forum become disturbing to anyone. We all know there are problems with the other features of the community. Those opinions should be saved for a different thread or a new one.

---

Because of this message I deleted my carefully composed and incredibly enlightening point (well, perhaps a little useful in *my* mind, at least) about what people were saying in the thread, and I've been stewing over it since... so I have something to say that's more directly relevant to the OP.

One annoying kind of posting behavior that seems more prevalent lately is when a person who posts a message thinks that entitles them to control and direct everything that's said in the thread. Dudes - you're not playing solo here - it's an MMO, and people may recognize that your original question has ramifications that you may not have seen, or that they feel are more important, or that is directly relevant to what someone else has said. It was initially your question or comment or complaint, but that does not make the whole thread your personal property to manage and direct.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapience

I've also made it clear that based on feedback I would happily take a nuclear option of blowing everything away and having just basic forum functionality if it meant we can have a faster system and reliable ability for players to log in and post. We've gotten the ball rolling, and a new site is coming, but there will be systems that are removed because they simply are too fragile and cause much of the issues players report on a regular basis.

---

I would be happy with this, in fact i would even be happy with a total separation of the forum and other parts of the website form our game accounts, if the only way to have the shiny features would be to have separate logins for each then i would be fine with that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Glumposneak

Personally I don't like the way its often implied the free to play players are the ones causing all the problems.

I have a liifetime account, while the store is obviously a bit too intrusive I do think if the game hadn't gone F2P it wouldn't be here any more. Sure there are some problems, bugs not being fixed and it does often look like Turbine are milking us for all they can get and bugs that don't affect us spending money in the store go to the bottom of the pile.

But since its gone F2P I have met many new kin members, the vast vast majority being polite, helpful players, fun to be around and fun to group with.

A few of my kin are lifetime members, many are VIP and many are F2P. I have met just as many rude VIP players as I have F2p and thankfully both those numbers are pretty low.

---

I completely agree that F2P vs VIP is another one of those annoying and pointless community divisions, like groupers vs soloers, casual vs hardcore, etc. The forums are full of threads that are nothing more than 'the way I play is better than the way you play so everything is all your fault' statements, and that is unfortunate and unhealthy for the community. F2P happened, it has its pros and cons, but no one type of player is breaking the game or hurting the community, and there are great people and huge trolls among every subscription category or style of play. I do think that f2p sometimes gets mentioned as a timeframe reference, because lots of unrelated game and community site changes happened around that time, so it's not always meant as a cause-and-effect judgment. But nobody should be blamed for playing the game in the way that best suits them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr.Hidden

Well, in my opinion it depends what features. I am a little bit afraid of loosing all the lorebook...

---

Same here on the Lorebook... and there was the whole discussion in the Store feedback section that people didn't like losing the weekly sales page (and being forced to log in). It's probably safe to assume patch notes will still exist (trying not to take "nuke and start over with the forums" TOO literally)... but it would be nice to have some dialog on the key features (especially those tied to information only Turbine can summarize - like leaderboards, kinship rosters, lorebook) before the plan goes into execution.

As a long time fan of the LOTRO forums I can tell you the biggest down-turn was the upgrade to the new format. No single event had a bigger effect on the forum community. Due mostly to performance issues many, many of the regular posters on the Brandywine forum stopped posting and never returned unless they had a specific reason to post. The game is aging also so that will certainly affect the community but the change in the forum format a few years ago made a very observable difference. IMO it had nothing to do with F2P (which actually brought an influx of nice people to the forums) and mostly due to poor performance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuco

Because of this message I deleted my carefully composed and incredibly enlightening point (well, perhaps a little useful in *my* mind, at least) about what people were saying in the thread, and I've been stewing over it since... so I have something to say that's more directly relevant to the OP.

One annoying kind of posting behavior that seems more prevalent lately is when a person who posts a message thinks that entitles them to control and direct everything that's said in the thread. Dudes - you're not playing solo here - it's an MMO, and people may recognize that your original question has ramifications that you may not have seen, or that they feel are more important, or that is directly relevant to what someone else has said. It was initially your question or comment or complaint, but that does not make the whole thread your personal property to manage and direct.

---

I'll go ahead and start off by apologizing. I'm a big man I know when I am wrong. I was trying to get the thread back to the main topic because the truth is I really am interested in everyone opinions on the General Forums. After yesterday their state is even more disturbing. No I do not own the thread. And i'll end again by apologizing. Before I made this pact to become a more mature forum poster I knew I would make some mistakes in the beginning and for that i am sorry. I will try to do better.

Before yesterday I would have taken a post like this a s personal attack but today I've changed and I take it as advice.

Change is hard but darn it I'm trying

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minquinn

I'll go ahead and start off by apologizing. I'm a big man I know when I am wrong. I was trying to get the thread back to the main topic because the truth is I really am interested in everyone opinions on the General Forums. After yesterday their state is even more disturbing. No I do not own the thread. And i'll end again by apologizing. Before I made this pact to become a more mature forum poster I knew I would make some mistakes in the beginning and for that i am sorry. I will try to do better.

Before yesterday I would have taken a post like this a s personal attack but today I've changed and I take it as advice.

Change is hard but darn it I'm trying

---

Good post Min. /swordsalute to you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minquinn

I'll go ahead and start off by apologizing. I'm a big man I know when I am wrong. I was trying to get the thread back to the main topic because the truth is I really am interested in everyone opinions on the General Forums. After yesterday their state is even more disturbing. No I do not own the thread. And i'll end again by apologizing. Before I made this pact to become a more mature forum poster I knew I would make some mistakes in the beginning and for that i am sorry. I will try to do better.

Before yesterday I would have taken a post like this a s personal attack but today I've changed and I take it as advice.

Change is hard but darn it I'm trying

---

Well done. It takes a big man(or woman)to admit fault and apologize.

Apology accepted, Captain Needa.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minquinn

I've gotta tell ya if I was choosing a new MMO and using the general forum as a basis for my decision I would have avoided this game like the plague.

---

Yyyyyup. People who have anything insightful to say get squashed under a wave of people complaining about the most absurd things. God help you if you dare have a question to ask of the forums.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Firebryt

I agree completely. This seems to have occurred around the time it went F2P and the influx of new people into the game.

---

It happened before that too. The problem really comes just after a new expansion or major update. That's when players who have temporarily left come back. Those who say "this game sux!" and leave in disgust will often come back if there's a new raid. Casual player's who've finished the books will come back when a new book si out. Basically, there's always a large influx of players, new and old, when the updates occur.

As for F2P, I did not see things as worse than normal. Many of the F2P (not premium, not past-players) were great people and it was a nice influx of people who were unsure about joining a different MMO who then decided that this was the place for them.

The worst for me I think was after Moria was released. That's when there was a huge influx of hardcore players in my view, with more people than any other time who'd stop and tell other players how they were doing things wrong. There was a lot of angry muttering about addition of rune keeper and warden; not due to lore reasons but due to players feeling that their privileged unique role had been usurped. The balance between tactical and physical classes was really large, and when they fixed up physical damage (players AND enemies) a lot of players quit for good in anger. With 6 end game instances plus a raid, and needing to do them all to get a full set of gear, it was a lot more hardcore than now and it was much more difficult to get into a group as a casual play than it was before or after in my view.

Granted, there's some weird stuff happening right now to be sure. But it's not as bad as it could be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minquinn

I'll go ahead and start off by apologizing. I'm a big man I know when I am wrong. I was trying to get the thread back to the main topic because the truth is I really am interested in everyone opinions on the General Forums. After yesterday their state is even more disturbing. No I do not own the thread. And i'll end again by apologizing. Before I made this pact to become a more mature forum poster I knew I would make some mistakes in the beginning and for that i am sorry. I will try to do better.

Before yesterday I would have taken a post like this a s personal attack but today I've changed and I take it as advice.

Change is hard but darn it I'm trying

---

I'm sorry, but why should Minquinn be apologising? For trying to get a thread back on topic?? A thread that alright he doesn't physically own, but sure as heck started LOL :) He asked a question, wanted opinions, it was hyjacked and HE apologises? Where's the respect for the OP?

I see Sapience has visited this thread....what do you think man....should he have apologised?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by K'Arian

...should he have apologised?

---

No need to apologize, but it's just a fact that nobody "owns" threads, and that the only moderation most posters will pay attention to comes from well... moderators. Fighting against that is pretty much like trying to swim upstream - you can spend lots of energy and not ever really get anywhere.

My own version of "swimming upstream" was during the first year or so after the game launched. I tried to convince people on the forums to "keep it civil" because I knew from long experience that incivility would be the quickest way to drive developer interaction on the forums down (as well as being generally unpleasant for most of the rest of us). It was hopeless, of course. Most people were already civil, and those who weren't certainly weren't going to pay any attention to me.

Khafar

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by K'Arian

it was hyjacked

---

No it wasn't, no matter what anybody believes this tread has always been and always will be about bacon.

http://media-cache-ec4.pinterest.com...NrggLb1i_b.jpg

:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by K'Arian

I'm sorry, but why should Minquinn be apologising? For trying to get a thread back on topic?? A thread that alright he doesn't physically own, but sure as heck started LOL :) He asked a question, wanted opinions, it was hyjacked and HE apologises? Where's the respect for the OP?

I see Sapience has visited this thread....what do you think man....should he have apologised?

---

It goes back to my original thoughts in the thread. When I ask the community to get back to the one I remember when I first started playing it maybe hypocritical to then come back into the thread and say something that is remotely related to my original post should not be voiced. It is aggravating when everytime I go to post something I am logged out. So maybe that does contribute to the attitude we are seeing in the forums.

I will reiterate my original post for those just joining us on page 3. Some disturbing trends in the general forums have me worried about new players joining the game. When they see the following:

1. A page full of troll posts about 1st age weapons
That shows right there that there maybe a problem with how we are given loot in game. Even if there isn't
If I'm a player looking to start this game I google 1st age symbol right away and see why there are so many closed threads on it started by the same people.

2. Several threads that underlying are trying to start a flame war between different playstyles (words like forced grouping and faceroll, etc)
This shows that there may or may not be a problem with joining a group in the game. It also shows a trend that the game is taking a turn to solo play and group play may be eliminated. If I was a WOW player looking to switch games and saw this I would avoid this game. Wow is a game where solo player is for leveling and dailies only and most of the fun is done in groups. Content so easy that there is no challenge at all. When you play any game you want some type of challenge. Risk vs. Reward. Even PS3 games present some type of challenge on single player. Why should an MMO not suport this same type of behavior

3. Posters linking definitions from wiki when tearing someones opinion to shreds, condescending attitudes towards other players
If I'm a new player and I see this and I tell myself that I never want to ask a question in the forums that may be even remotely stupid. Since the community is only going to answer with trolls or try to make me look like an idiot I'll find a game that has more helpful players.

Hopefully this is more specific as to what I am asking of the community. There are more I could cover but we get the general basis of the thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minquinn

It goes back to my original thoughts in the thread. When I ask the community to get back to the one I remember when I first started playing it maybe hypocritical to then come back into the thread and say something that is remotely related to my original post should not be voiced. It is aggravating when everytime I go to post something I am logged out. So maybe that does contribute to the attitude we are seeing in the forums.

I will reiterate my original post for those just joining us on page 3. Some disturbing trends in the general forums have me worried about new players joining the game. When they see the following:

1. A page full of troll posts about 1st age weapons
That shows right there that there maybe a problem with how we are given loot in game. Even if there isn't
If I'm a player looking to start this game I google 1st age symbol right away and see why there are so many closed threads on it started by the same people.

2. Several threads that underlying are trying to start a flame war between different playstyles (words like forced grouping and faceroll, etc)
This shows that there may or may not be a problem with joining a group in the game. It also shows a trend that the game is taking a turn to solo play and group play may be eliminated. If I was a WOW player looking to switch games and saw this I would avoid this game. Wow is a game where solo player is for leveling and dailies only and most of the fun is done in groups. Content so easy that there is no challenge at all. When you play any game you want some type of challenge. Risk vs. Reward. Even PS3 games present some type of challenge on single player. Why should an MMO not suport this same type of behavior

3. Posters linking definitions from wiki when tearing someones opinion to shreds, condescending attitudes towards other players
If I'm a new player and I see this and I tell myself that I never want to ask a question in the forums that may be even remotely stupid. Since the community is only going to answer with trolls or try to make me look like an idiot I'll find a game that has more helpful players.

Hopefully this is more specific as to what I am asking of the community. There are more I could cover but we get the general basis of the thread.

---

To be honest, all this sounds exactly 100% like every single gaming forum i have ever been to and anyone who has any experience with forums will understand that, people who haven't had experience with forums generally won't visit here anyway through lack of knowledge, and others just won't come here until they really need to know something.

You can tell this by the new player forum, most of the posts there are from players who have played for a few weeks even months and have hit a stumbling block in the game so they've come here to get answers, once you've hit that "experience" point in a game the forum is no longer a deciding factor on whether you will continue or not.

I know when i first started playing mmo's the games i played didn't even have forums and the first one that i played that did have forums i never visited them until i'd been playing for months and someone told me about them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minquinn

It goes back to my original thoughts in the thread. When I ask the community to get back to the one I remember when I first started playing it maybe hypocritical to then come back into the thread and say something that is remotely related to my original post should not be voiced. It is aggravating when everytime I go to post something I am logged out. So maybe that does contribute to the attitude we are seeing in the forums.

I will reiterate my original post for those just joining us on page 3. Some disturbing trends in the general forums have me worried about new players joining the game. When they see the following:

1. A page full of troll posts about 1st age weapons
That shows right there that there maybe a problem with how we are given loot in game. Even if there isn't
If I'm a player looking to start this game I google 1st age symbol right away and see why there are so many closed threads on it started by the same people.

2. Several threads that underlying are trying to start a flame war between different playstyles (words like forced grouping and faceroll, etc)
This shows that there may or may not be a problem with joining a group in the game. It also shows a trend that the game is taking a turn to solo play and group play may be eliminated. If I was a WOW player looking to switch games and saw this I would avoid this game. Wow is a game where solo player is for leveling and dailies only and most of the fun is done in groups. Content so easy that there is no challenge at all. When you play any game you want some type of challenge. Risk vs. Reward. Even PS3 games present some type of challenge on single player. Why should an MMO not suport this same type of behavior

3. Posters linking definitions from wiki when tearing someones opinion to shreds, condescending attitudes towards other players
If I'm a new player and I see this and I tell myself that I never want to ask a question in the forums that may be even remotely stupid. Since the community is only going to answer with trolls or try to make me look like an idiot I'll find a game that has more helpful players.

Hopefully this is more specific as to what I am asking of the community. There are more I could cover but we get the general basis of the thread.

---

well +rep for trying man. But I go back to what I said in an earlier post, there isn't just 1 community here, but a diversity of communities and the main problem lies with a lack of consistency and respect. They all want the same thing in the end, a better environment, they just have different ways of approaching it and sometimes, this can be misinturpreted. But I for one welcome a friendlier community where one is not flamed or trolled for voicing an opinion :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by K'Arian

well +rep for trying man. But I go back to what I said in an earlier post, there isn't just 1 community here, but a diversity of communities and the main problem lies with a lack of consistency and respect. They all want the same thing in the end, a better environment, they just have different ways of approaching it and sometimes, this can be misinturpreted. But I for one welcome a friendlier community where one is not flamed or trolled for voicing an opinion :D

---

Welcome to the new world Mr. Columbus. As you can see we are already changing the community for the better one person at a time. This thread seriously has become a troll-less thread. You can imagine the uproar if someone came into this thread and did one of the things I described above. I am sure I would have many of the posters coming to my defense and defending the heart of this thread which is that we want a better community.

The OP is either suffering from long term memory lose or more likely was looking at the game and the forums with rose colored glasses. During the time period he said he joined the forums were very negative. There was still a lot of resisual negativity from adding rune keepers with the Moria quest pack. Also a large number of players were were angery that Mirkwood was considered an expansion and they had to pay for it.

The forums have not changed much since the game started. There are the haters, the people who love the game and the people who really dont care one way or the other. Its just that you have been with the game so are starting to see the wrinkles.