TRANSCRIPT: Twitter Dev Chat August 21, 2013 - Class Changes

Members of the LOTRO team answered over 40 questions during a recent live developer chat on twitter. The focus was on the Class Changes coming with Helm’s Deep this fall.

The members of the dev team who took part, and what they’re working on.

• Matt "Hoarsedev" Zimmitti - Lead Systems Designer (Classes)
• Jared “Amlug”Hall-Dugas – Senior Designer (MTX)
• Trevor “Jinjaah” McEwen – Associate Systems Designer (Classes)
• Erika “Deviled_Egg” Ng – Associate Systems Designer (Classes)
• Rick "Sapience" Heaton - Community Manager

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Hi Everyone, we're going to start just a little early with questions submitted via the forums. Here we go! #LOTRO


Q1: bgriggs: Are the current virtues and traits being incorporated into the new system at all? #LOTRO
A1: HoarseDev: Virtues will remain mostly the same. Traits are now completely rolled into the new system. #LOTRO

Q2: Yulin-Gladden: How will these changes effect Mounted combat? Are those skils getting a revamp as well? #LOTRO
A2: Deviled_Egg: Any benefits gained from these new traits will be isolated from Mounted Combat. #LOTRO

Q3: Leixy: Using war-steeds as a template, how will trait points be earned and spent on trait trees? #LOTRO
A3: HoarseDev: You’ll earn a point every other level. You’ll also earn points from some deeds. #LOTRO
A3a:You’ll choose a specialization at an early level that will grant specific bonuses and affect the cost of traits as you spend them #LOTRO

Q4: WertyJohn: Are you going to revamp combat animations too? #LOTRO
A4: Jinjaah: We are addressing animations on a case by case basis.#LOTRO
A4a: Some are far too long and are being shortened to increase responsiveness.#LOTRO
A4b: Ferocious Strikes for Champions is an example of this. #LOTRO

Q5: banjolier: For players who spent TP to unlock trait slots, how will you convert our existing purchases to the new system? #LOTRO
A5: HoarseDev: Your specialization choice gives you access to bonuses as you spend points. #LOTRO
A5a: These are unlocked in the same way as the old slots and those purchases carry over to the new system. #LOTRO

Q6: Laire: Will we be able to save different trait set-ups? If so, how many? #LOTRO
A6: HoarseDev: Two set-ups to start. You can purchase more if you like. #LOTRO

Q7: Grhysli: How much of this new system is going to be gated behind the LOTRO Store? #LOTRO
A7: HoarseDev: Only the slots similar to the old Premium/F2P purchases and additional builds after the two you get for free. #LOTRO

Q8: Schinderhannes: Will the update allow us to use 4 legendary traits at the same time? #LOTRO
A8: HoarseDev: No, but the ones you have will be more potent. #LOTRO
A8a: Deviled_Egg: Legendary traits are now a part of each trait tree, and are available for purchase at the end of the tree. #LOTRO
A8b: There is also a Legendary Passive bonus that depends on your specialization.#LOTRO
A8c: This will be unlocked when you spend a certain number of points overall. #LOTRO

Q9: Mildford: Will the new traits system be offered to creeps too? #LOTRO
A9: Jinjaah: Creeps will be getting Corruption Set Bonuses but not full on trait trees. #LOTRO

Q10: Grimdi: Will there be detailed dev diaries on the upcoming class/system changes before HD release? #LOTRO
A10: Deviled_Egg: We are planning to release dev diaries for each class. #LOTRO
A10a: Sapience: I see many long hours of editing in my future... #LOTRO

Q11: Raven-EU: What was the primary driver(s) for this change? #LOTRO
A11: Jinjaah: I think there were two main things that drove these changes: #LOTRO
A11a: 1. We wanted to design the trait trees in such a way that as soon as you leave the intro, #LOTRO
A11b: your trait line starts to play as it was envisioned instead of later on down the road when you began to collect traits. #LOTRO
A11c: 2. We really wanted each trait line to sort of stand out from the rest and reduce some of the class homogenization #LOTRO
A11d: that had slowly occurred over the years. #LOTRO

Q12: Zombielord: Will retraiting still require our character visiting a bard/class trainer? (Hope not) #LOTRO
A12: Jinjaah: Nope! Respeccing your trait tree can be done on the fly so long as you are out of combat. #LOTRO
A12a: Deviled_Egg: The process is similar to how you re-trait in Mounted Combat #LOTRO

Q13: Silmelin: Can minstrels still switch (with in game silver) between being as strong as possible War-speech minstrels #LOTRO
Q13a: who can enjoy all the solo content of the game, and as strong as possible healers who'll get invited to Instances and Raids? #LOTRO
A13: HoarseDev: You can switch builds with silver. #LOTRO

Q14: Judi: Will there be a new class added to the game? #LOTRO
A14: HoarseDev: Not for Helm’s Deep. #LOTRO

Q15: Laire: Using all of their points, on average how many active skills does a 85 toon have? #LOTRO
A15: Jinjaah: Our goal, and it isn’t the same across the board, is for all classes to have around 20 skills after spending all their points.
A15a: Things like travel paths will not count towards this cap. #LOTRO


Q16: medwulf: will the class changes affect LI's and Legacies at all? #LOTRO
A16: HoarseDev: Ugh, we have a lot of updating to do. #LOTRO

Q17: Moochi: How will the new system afford us the same flexibility we have now, #LOTRO
Q17a: without buying many trait sets through the store? #LOTRO
A17: Jinjaah: A lot of time and effort was put into the construction of the trees to encourage spending points #LOTRO
A17a: in trees that you did not specialize in. #LOTRO
A17b: The new system should offer various forms of hybridization to explore.#LOTRO


Q18: @BhorisTheSpider Will the class changes mean a L95 character may be less potent (healing/damage) than an corresponding L85 character? #LOTRO
A18: HoarseDev: They'll be more potent in their specialization. This will come at the cost of broad utility.

Q19: @greendragoon Is there going to be any effort to streamline the Warden's massive (and convoluted) abilitiy list? #LOTRO
A19: DeviledEgg In short, yes. Some gambits are being trimmed, some are being placed in different specialization.
A19a: The total number of gambits will be decided by how you choose to specialize.


Q20: @osmihu Can you give some specific examples of specializations? #LOTRO
A20: Jinjaah The hunter could choose between the bowmaster or huntsman. #LOTRO
A20a: Huntsman has less range, but can induct on the move. #LOTRO
A20b: Where the bowmaster has much greater range, but must plant his feet to deal damage. #LOTRO


Q21: @ForgotMyGambits Hunters currently have a lot of skills. Will there be skill consolidation? #LOTRO
A21: JinJaah Yes. There is some skill consolidation to reduce the overall skill count to around 20.
A21a: Per specialization. Travel skills won't count towards that number. #LOTRO

Q22: @brrzap can we change specializations later or is this a 1-time choice? #lotro
A22: DeviledEGG Yes you can change your specializations. Respecing your tree will also allow you to choose a new specialization.

Q23: @osmihu Will skills still be purchased from the trainer or gained from the tree? #LOTRO
A23: JinJaah Some will be gained from the tree, others will be auto-granted based on level. #LOTRO

Q24: @mavegibson Will there be dramatic changes to the skills we have, and will there be skills specific to our trait lines? #LOTRO
A24: All: Yes and yes!

Q25: @ElinneaG Will new characters be able to see all the traits/skills before choosing a specialization? #LOTRO
A25: HoarseDev Yes. You'll be able to see all specializations and trees before deciding. #LOTRO

Q26: @Gihalahad will players have to sacrifice surviveability for damage?
A26: HoarseDev. Yes and vice versa. Though there is room to dip into both.

Q27: @nick_wilbur you guys keep saying specialization will be chosen at a low level & bonuses granted. Initially, what can we expect with toons at 85?
A27: DeviledEGG We'll autogrant you the correct number of points for your level. #LOTRO
A27a: Deeds that previously gave traits will give trait points. #LOTRO
A27b: You can choose your specialization and spend your points when you login when HD goes live. #LOTRO

Q28: @landlover64 how different will the play style of our characters be with the changes to how they play now? #LOTRO
A28: DeviledEgg They'll still feel like the class you know, just better versions. #LOTRO
A28a: Jinjaah They should feel better catered to the role they were destined to fill. #LOTRO

Q29: @miofli Will certain currently unused trait lines, eg the yellow hunter line, change role? #LOTRO
A29: Jinjaah Traitlines like the hunter's yellow line are being revamped more than others. #LOTRO
A29a: DeviledEGG In general we want each traitline to feel just as good as the next. #LOTRO

Q30: @corynettnin Classes like cappies and champs are considered off-tanks. Will these changes move them closer or further from being "real" tanks?
A30: DeviledEGG Each tanking specialization will be effective, but in its own way. #LOTRO

Q31: @skinnynakedboy will all hunter traps become skills and are there going to be more traps available as they have potential but are underrated #LOTRO
A31: Jinjahh Hunter traps are becoming skills.
A31a: They will be usable in combat and some have had their potency changed to make them feel less 'underrated'. #LOTRO

Q32: @Aelrindel what about creeps classes and traits? #LOTRO
A32: Jinjaah Creeps will be getting corruption set bonuses. #LOTRO
A32a: These bonuses give various buffs and effects based on the corruptions slotted. #LOTRO

Q33: @Scoed To respec for silver, will we have to refund and respend all points, or just the parts we want to change? #LOTRO
A33: HoarseDev It's all or nothing. #LOTRO

Q34: @Ranni Will the trap skills share a common cool down? #LOTRO
A34: Jinjaah No, they will each have their own cool down. #LOTRO

Q35: @Merry_Forest88 Can we expect increase of power and abilities from under-power Lore-Master Pets and Captain Herald? #LOTRO
A35: DeviledEGG We are trying to better balance the potency of LM pets and Capt. Heralds. #LOTRO

Q36: @eldaeriel can you tell us any timeframes? For dev diaries, beta testing of changes :) #lotro
A36: Sapience You can expect to see them "Soon". You'll get an 11.3 Dev diary first. End of the week. #LOTRO

Q37: @Lord_Dolvic will we still have "use skill X" deeds, legendary trait page deeds and quests? Will they now reward trait points? #LOTRO
A37: DeviledEGG Completing these deeds will now reward trait points.
A37a: Jinjaah If you have already completed these deeds, your progress will be carried over. #LOTRO

Q38: @Crappledumpkins Recently chickens & a referee have been spotted at the Hobnanigans field again. Will this event be returning soon?
A38: Amlug WE're working on it. WE have no ETA, but we'd like to see this make a return. #LOTRO

Q39: @leixicon will all trait lines still be auto-unlocked for VIPs? #LOTRO
A39: Hoarsedev Yes they will. #LOTRO

Q40: @JVaughn227 What's being done to address the current in game lag and severity of it?
Q40: Sapience Some changes are going in to address mounted combat lag with Update 11.3.
Q40a: We also continue to add more monitoring tools to help isolate other issues.


Q41: @paspinall42 What about the disparity in the class deeds,, with changes in levels for skills and the like some can complete faster than others.
A41: DeviledEGG We're aware of this issue and we're addressing it. #LOTRO


That's all the time we have today! Thanks for all the great questions. A transcript will be posted to the forums shortly. #LOTRO

Thanks for taking the time to answer so many questions. This was a very informative and exciting chat.

Since classes are being revamped, skills changed, renamed, re-purposed, etc., are you going to allow other races, along with the current, within the class?

A great post to read, much like the Big Battles thread.

This 11.3 intrigues me; such a minor update needs a developer diary? So I wonder what is being added, unless it is for the Farmer's Faire.

One thing I didn't see mentioned, is what will happen with Racial traits? Are they being revised/changed/removed?

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Originally Posted by zalladi

This 11.3 intrigues me; such a minor update needs a developer diary? So I wonder what is being added, unless it is for the Farmer's Faire.

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When you see what the Bounders have cooking up in the Shire, you'll understand why a Developer Diary is in order.

I'd link to the Bullroarer posts, but they've been swept into the mist.

This is a pretty basic question I couldn't find an answer to:

How many trees can each class choose from?

Will it be like war-steeds in that there are three types and each type has three trees, each slightly different?

Or will it be simpler, with just three trees per class, one of which the character chooses to specialize in?

Thank you Turbine for doing this chat today. It was very informative, and I just love getting juicy details! The class revamps sound interesting. I'm excited for the individual class dev diaries with pictures!

Very exciting! Sounds like a new lotro to me.

Related to Q31 (Hunters traps turning into skills instead of crafted consumables). Is the same thing going to happen to Light/Fire oils. Are they going to become skills instead of crafted consumables?

No class trainers/bards anymore? Who's next? Suppliers, auctioneers or guild leaders? Towns are getting empty. :(

Really looking forward to the dev dairies and more class specific info tho!

My notes...

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Q8: Schinderhannes: Will the update allow us to use 4 legendary traits at the same time? #LOTRO
A8: HoarseDev: No, but the ones you have will be more potent. #LOTRO
A8a: Deviled_Egg: Legendary traits are now a part of each trait tree, and are available for purchase at the end of the tree. #LOTRO
A8b: There is also a Legendary Passive bonus that depends on your specialization.#LOTRO
A8c: This will be unlocked when you spend a certain number of points overall. #LOTRO

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A little confused on this one. It says legendary traits are "available for purchase" at the end of the tree. Please tell me that's with Skill Points and not Mithril Coins and/or Turbine points...

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Q14: Judi: Will there be a new class added to the game? #LOTRO
A14: HoarseDev: Not for Helm’s Deep. #LOTRO

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Hmmmmmmmmmm...........

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Q20: @osmihu Can you give some specific examples of specializations? #LOTRO
A20: Jinjaah The hunter could choose between the bowmaster or huntsman. #LOTRO
A20a: Huntsman has less range, but can induct on the move. #LOTRO
A20b: Where the bowmaster has much greater range, but must plant his feet to deal damage. #LOTRO

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Woohoo! Hunters can FINALLY shoot while they move. :cool:

All in all, a good dev chat. Didn't get my question answered though. :(

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Originally Posted by Iktomi

Related to Q31 (Hunters traps turning into skills instead of crafted consumables). Is the same thing going to happen to Light/Fire oils. Are they going to become skills instead of crafted consumables?

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I hope so. I haven't been able to find Light Oil on the AH for weeks. :(

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Originally Posted by Elderban

A little confused on this one. It says legendary traits are "available for purchase" at the end of the tree. Please tell me that's with Skill Points and not Mithril Coins and/or Turbine points...

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Yes, with points.

Greetings...

Overall a good first pass of information about the class changes. As a Champion and Captain I am pleased to read that our tanking roles will be pushed to main tank levels. Or at least that's how I read the dev's response. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Looking forward to more information as it gets passed down.

One question I have now that I just thought of, which I didn't see raised or answered pertains to passive class skills. As a Captain it drives me to maximum levels of insanity that I am 2% behind the damage eight ball because I choose to use 2h hammers and not swords or halberds. I would love to see these passive bonus damages removed from classes all together or give me an option to get my 2% extra via a deed or trait point somewhere. Really any class that can inherently equip any given weapon ought to not be penalized for choosing that weapon. Dev's any comment on this?

Cheers,
Jeremy

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Originally Posted by Fredelas

This is a pretty basic question I couldn't find an answer to:

How many trees can each class choose from?

Will it be like war-steeds in that there are three types and each type has three trees, each slightly different?

Or will it be simpler, with just three trees per class, one of which the character chooses to specialize in?

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Devs told Hunters will be able to choose between TWO trait trees (huntsman and bowmasters).
Someone asked later if this was just for hunters or if it was valid to all classes, but they didnt answer.

They also told useless trait lines will be throwed away (like yellow of hunters).

Idk the answer about ur other questions.

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Originally Posted by Abbiati

Devs told Hunters will be able to choose between TWO trait trees (huntsman and bowmasters).
Someone asked later if this was just for hunters or if it was valid to all classes, but they didnt answer.

They also told useless trait lines will be throwed away (like yellow of hunters).

Idk the answer about ur other questions.

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That's not entirely true nor accurate. We gave examples not complete listings of trees. Every word we said is in the transcript above so there shouldn't be any ambiguity in what we did or didn't say. It's all right there.

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Originally Posted by Abbiati

Devs told Hunters will be able to choose between TWO trait trees (huntsman and bowmasters).
Someone asked later if this was just for hunters or if it was valid to all classes, but they didnt answer.

They also told useless trait lines will be throwed away (like yellow of hunters).

Idk the answer about ur other questions.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Q29: @miofli Will certain currently unused trait lines, eg the yellow hunter line, change role? #LOTRO
A29: Jinjaah Traitlines like the hunter's yellow line are being revamped more than others. #LOTRO
A29a: DeviledEGG In general we want each traitline to feel just as good as the next. #LOTRO

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If you read a bit deeper you will see that is not the case.

So will weaponsmith trap recipes be removed?

And people with the deeds already completed will get the trait points automatically, right?

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Originally Posted by SjsharksBoy

So will weaponsmith trap recipes be removed?

And people with the deeds already completed will get the trait points automatically, right?

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They might change it like they did with cosmetic LM pets, where the recipe gives you a consumable to learn a skill instead of what it did previously.

And yes, people with the deeds already completed get the trait points automatically.

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Originally Posted by BigBack

Overall a good first pass of information about the class changes. As a Champion and Captain I am pleased to read that our tanking roles will be pushed to main tank levels. Or at least that's how I read the dev's response. Please correct me if I am wrong.

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That's pretty much how I interpreted it as well, but the "in their own way" still leaves me a little wary.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

That's not entirely true nor accurate. We gave examples not complete listings of trees. Every word we said is in the transcript above so there shouldn't be any ambiguity in what we did or didn't say. It's all right there.

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The transcript still doesn't answer my very simple question posted above:

How many trees can each class choose from?

Apparently, I missed the memo declaring that "revamped" is the same thing as "thrown away". ;)

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Originally Posted by Abbiati

Devs told Hunters will be able to choose between TWO trait trees (huntsman and bowmasters).
Someone asked later if this was just for hunters or if it was valid to all classes, but they didnt answer.

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They used that as an example comparison of two trait lines - this does not mean that there are only two trait lines per class.

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Originally Posted by Elderban

I hope so. I haven't been able to find Light Oil on the AH for weeks. :(

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I hope not. That would make hunters too overpowered for me.

Also I asked this during the chat, but never got the answer. What type of consolidation/complete redoing of the traits/skills are being done to make the 20 skills doable for all. The first class that comes to mind is Lore Master. It seems like they will suffer because most of their current skills build on each other and they all serve a purpose.

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Originally Posted by Peresbert

Also I asked this during the chat, but never got the answer. What type of consolidation/complete redoing of the traits/skills are being done to make the 20 skills doable for all. The first class that comes to mind is Lore Master. It seems like they will suffer along because most of their current skills build on each other.

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The biggest issues I could see is potential removal of things like Burning Embers or Cracked Earth, damaging skills that also have some sort of debuff or CC attached. Personally, when I'm DPSing I don't often use too many debuffs, and vice versa. From the chat it seems that while we'll be focused on one section we should still be able to branch a little bit into others, so I'm not too worried. (Basically, I see it as an LM who is specializing in damage will still be able to access a couple of their debuffs, or heals, or pet things, depending on where they throw their points around.)

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Originally Posted by Peresbert

I hope not. That would make hunters too overpowered for me.

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I could see an option on the tree that has a center skill, then to the left or right are Fire Damage and Light Damage, but you can only choose one, and in order to switch to the other, you would either have to go with another build slot or retrait your current one. Kind of how some of the mount skills work.

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Originally Posted by Elderban

I hope so. I haven't been able to find Light Oil on the AH for weeks. :(

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Fire oil and Light oil have always been available from the Hunter Trainer. I always keep a full stack of 50 each!
It might not last as long as the crafted oils, but they work fine. :)

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Originally Posted by Granlif

Fire oil and Light oil have always been available from the Hunter Trainer. I always keep a full stack of 50 each!
It might not last as long as the crafted oils, but they work fine. :)

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Yep, they do exactly the same thing as the crafted ones, and all oils can be applied in combat, so the only reason to worry about higher crafted oils is if you're trying to save on vault space or inventory room. If you can't get the higher ones, just go with the lower ones.

One thing I didn't think to submit as a question - will the trait tree mechanism be exposed to Lua the way the Learned/Unlearnded skills are now or will this break all of the Lua plugins that use the current skill API? If it is a new mechanism, have the guys doing the Lua development had a chance to update the Lua API for this (in their spare time)?

Overall, I was very pleased with the chat and the descriptions of the changes. Filled with Dev enthusiasm, as these things always are, I would caution against too much exuberance though. The devils are always in the details and the implementation.

Of all the answers, I found the answer to question 17 the most squeeky. We apparently get two trees for 'free' although it is not clear if there will be enough points at the cap to completely fill them both. It also implies that more lines are available for purchase. And although trees limit the hybridization of skill sets, they do allow a pay for flexibility option. Be prepared for many pay to win forum discussions on this matter.

In regards to limiting the number of available skills to (around) 20 for each class, is a warden gambit considered a "skill" which counts towards this intended number or not ?

I shudder at the prospect of "1 gambit = 1 skill".

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Originally Posted by PypeRings

We apparently get two trees for 'free' although it is not clear if there will be enough points are the cap to completely fill them both.

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I want to be able to say with certainty that all of the classes will have access to 3 'trait trees', but since Sapience/a Dev hasn't, even when directly asked how many each class will have access to, I won't.

But I WILL tell you that you are confusing trees with 'sets'. You get 2 free saved 'sets' of pre-appointed points (into trees). Its a "build". You get two free "builds" and can purchase some # more.

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Originally Posted by Ithrien

I want to be able to say with certainty that all of the classes will have access to 3 'trait trees', but since Sapience/a Dev hasn't, even when directly asked how many each class will have access to, I won't.

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Go ahead and say it. Three is correct.

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Originally Posted by Elderban

A little confused on this one. It says legendary traits are "available for purchase" at the end of the tree. Please tell me that's with Skill Points and not Mithril Coins and/or Turbine points...

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Yes, with points.

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But will they be purchasable with skill points or Turbine points?

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Originally Posted by Ithrien

I want to be able to say with certainty that all of the classes will have access to 3 'trait trees', but since Sapience/a Dev hasn't, even when directly asked how many each class will have access to, I won't.

But I WILL tell you that you are confusing trees with 'sets'. You get 2 free saved 'sets' of pre-appointed points (into trees). Its a "build". You get two free "builds" and can purchase some # more.

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Thanks for the clarification. I think I get that now. 3 trees with saved 'builds' of differing point allocations. I hope this is correct and seems a bit more logical. The only question left standing then, is how many points vs. point required to fill the trees you get or can get.

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Originally Posted by Deusdictum

But will they be purchasable with skill points or Turbine points?

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Skill points. Sorry, thought I had said that.

3 trees, red/blue/yellow, one each for our normal specialty/subspecialty(for a guardian think OP dps, s/b survival, s/b tanking). we have the trait lines now, turbine will not put one behind a pay gate. what will be pay gated is the number of specs you can save, just like current mounted combat. We get 2 free, extra save slots are available for purchase. I understand concern and even a bit of trepidation, but seriously folks, apply a little rationality before you go off.

My question I asked and didn't receive an answer was
"Why aren't you going to allow us to change only parts of the tree to respec? It's one of the better aspects of the current system."

Its what I don't like about the mounted combat trees. For me its a great reduction in flexibility.

A small request from me for the next "ask your questions", if there is one that is.

Give some ideas what it will be about, it's so much easier to come up with good questions then. Information beforehand on these class changes have been slim to none, so I couldn't come up with any good questions about it. And reading the questions people put up in the forum thread, it seems others had similar issue.

In my mind it would also be easier for those answering the questions if they where more specific. Not easy to answer questions like "How will changes affect x class?"

But thank you for the update.

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Originally Posted by Elenluin-Menelloth

My question I asked and didn't receive an answer was
"Why aren't you going to allow us to change only parts of the tree to respec? It's one of the better aspects of the current system."

Its what I don't like about the mounted combat trees. For me its a great reduction in flexibility.

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Because then there's no reason to buy extra build slots.
I think my plan is to use Build A for my most commonly used build, and Build B will constantly be rebuilt depending on what I need. Either that or I'll use Build A for my grouping build and B for my solo build or something, so that groups don't wait on me to retrait.

I can see this being potentially annoying if your group leader needs you to make one simple change but you have to reword your entire setup to do so. In general though, how many people even listen when their group leader tells them to trait something different? Not many I'd wager. PUGs don't tend to listen and more experienced players will probably already be doing the right thing.

Aw, it looks like the formation riding team is losing its performance field to a monk and his chickens.
We'll be looking for a flat, mostly rectangular, clearly bordered area to move to.
It needs to be at least that big, but not so big that spectators can't see to the other side.
If you happen to know of any good locations, please send map location and coordinates to kiralynn@roll3d6.com
Thanks! :D

I found the answer to this question quite interesting...

Q14: Judi: Will there be a new class added to the game? #LOTRO
A14: HoarseDev: Not for Helm’s Deep. #LOTRO?

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Originally Posted by Elenluin-Menelloth

My question I asked and didn't receive an answer was
"Why aren't you going to allow us to change only parts of the tree to respec? It's one of the better aspects of the current system."

Its what I don't like about the mounted combat trees. For me its a great reduction in flexibility.

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But what you can do is build a trait tree spec one way and then save it, make the changes you want and then save that to a second spec slot. That should allow you to make the minor change you want (change from the base spec to one that has minor differences from the base spec) -- you just have to do it in advance and then save it.

The above is clear in my head, but I might not have articulated it very well.

What a shame, I miss a question about hunter Fleetness and other short and irritating brief buffs with irregular cooldowns and if these will go away entirely. - And whoa, short range? Hunter is NOT a wannabe champ. Bad, bad idea, sorry. Terribly terrible. Also, the oddly named Precision currently has nothing to do with being able to hit stuff so I wonder what the toggles will do... I wonder if there's a lot of 5-30 second self-buffs that will need to be maintained to reach an acceptable damage output. I wonder if the skill rotations are extensively tested at all levels to not feel awkward.


I wonder I wonder I wonder.

And I still wonder why. The only thing needed to do in order to get rid of the same-ness is retrace and get rid of most class changes past 2-3 years. So what if hunter was overpowered when the game had cap level 50 - this still can be tweaked in the upgraded regular skills instead of reducing to half damage/dodging and adding complicated little extra buffs and extra clicks and useless effects.

In some instances, on hunter I feel as if I'm wearing paper - the lack of tactical mitigation is severe or rather the lack of tactical mitigation is bad unless you go down to perhaps half agility. Is there any way these skill trait tree thingies can be applied to grant some survivability without character becoming zero dps? For two years noone asked for my hunter in a raid. They said 'dps needed, champ preferred'. How will this overpowered current champ get reduced efficiency with HD - or rather how will hunter regain some efficiency? We used to be able to evade stuff, now my hunter gets stunned and takes majorly massive damage at random at all occasions. Crit def. Evade dodge - I'm able to increase Parry, which is a great thing considering the self heal is now crucial and only fast CD is with parry response.

I fear change. Change is also fun. I still wonder why change. I also wonder, wonder, wonder about a few basic things regarding bot countermeasures and exploiting the remote loot in order to not have to have loot removed from certain content.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eartholloth

I found the answer to this question quite interesting...

Q14: Judi: Will there be a new class added to the game? #LOTRO
A14: HoarseDev: Not for Helm’s Deep. #LOTRO?

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While that does seem to leave an opening for a new class sometime later, I personally would not read anything into that answer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

Because then there's no reason to buy extra build slots.

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This strikes me as a reasonable enough position, store cynic though I often am. My guess is that casual players will be more than content with 2 builds -- I'd guess many casual players don't visit the bard that much at all. Folks who want more than 2 will have to pay for it. That is life in F2P-land, but this instance of that doesn't offend me much (YMMV). I expect I'll pay for a few slots on my Captain main, and be very happy for the convenience of on-the-fly switching (say DPS traited up until boss, then swap out of combat to heals).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feraxks

While that does seem to leave an opening for a new class sometime later, I personally would not read anything into that answer.

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Well then they need to just answer with a no instead of dancing around the question with a answer like they did because people are going to take it as yes we are going to get a new class eventually.

Of greater concern to me is exactly how on the fly respecing will work. At present if you respec in MC your skills get moved around. There aren't many of them and most are the same, so no big deal atm, but with the reduction to ~20 skills you can bet that each spec will have a good number of skills specific to it. The thought of getting all the skills in their proper places for my shortcuts/macros/oh-%$&# flailing mouse click every time I respec is annoying at best, potentially daunting if it is a role I play only rarely.

While I do understand some of the trepidation (such large revamps to our beloved classes are scary!), I thought this devchat was really clear about a lot of things.

Basically, like mounted combat, you can have a ton of saved up trait lines for various instances, and you can dabble in two or three builds if you want, just not get the full potency of each build the more your dabble. Sounds like current trait set ups. And I think spending a couple 100 tp for a new save spot is totally cool... I know I will be doing that on a couple toons. Having two free ones to start with sounds reasonable.


I hope 11.3 deals with the mob spawn lag... it's made some instances near unplayable o.o (Flight t2...)

I think it's going to be exciting to roll a new char. when HD is released. It sounds like the Hunter is undergoing major changes and I don't have one, so I think that would make a great new class for me.

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Q39: @leixicon will all trait lines still be auto-unlocked for VIPs? #LOTRO
A39: Hoarsedev Yes they will. #LOTRO

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This answers the question for current VIPs but my VIP sub ended and I still kept all the trait, virtue, race and legendary slots unlocked for all my character even the new ones. Will I still keep this perk?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eartholloth

Well then they need to just answer with a no instead of dancing around the question with a answer like they did because people are going to take it as yes we are going to get a new class eventually.

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This is an example of people trying way too hard to read things into comments.

Are we adding a new class for Helm's Deep? No.

Then there's the reality of the larger impossible to answer questions which we usually ignore. Questions with "ever" or "never" in them.
Are we EVER going to add a new class? Great question. Maybe. Maybe Not. "Ever" is a really, incredibly long time. I'm going to go out on a limb and bet no one can answer a question like that about what they may or may not do at any point in the future.

As I said in another thread, it seems very similar to what was done in DDO concerning the Prestige lines.

I really, really despise trait tree systems. They try to give you an appearance of choice, but inevitably force you to put skills into things you don't want or need in order to get the things you do. They are also min/max'er dreams come true, and your goal of differentiating members of the same class will last as long as it takes the min/max'ers to figure out what the best build is. Then we are exactly where we are now.

Unfortunately, nothing in the dev chat lead me to believe that this revamp is an improvement.

I don't know. The more I hear about the upcoming changes, the more worried I become that it's going to be LotRO's "SWG-NGE."

The last time the trait system was revamped, it effectively reduced a fully open system to trio of subclasses with limited ability to mix and match. I play a Lore-Master specifically because I like the huge variety of skills. Debuffs, AoE, CC, pet, I have a tool for any situation. I play a hybrid trait setup, four red/DPS and three blue/pet/heal. I've never used a class legendary trait.

I don't want to specialize. What I love about the LM is that I can generalize.

/sigh
/fret

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KratosX

This answers the question for current VIPs but my VIP sub ended and I still kept all the trait, virtue, race and legendary slots unlocked for all my character even the new ones. Will I still keep this perk?

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I assume you will still keep all three lines.

That is because you have all the slots currently unlocked.

If you had slots left to unlock through the store, then I imagine there would be parts of the trees that would need to be purchased.

If I was fearful of the class revamps before, now I am utterly horrified. A lore-master will go from 41 skills to 20? That is dumbing down in the extreme. Were advanced classes eliminated?

MMOs are such strange animals. You find one you really like, play it with great enthusiasm, and then the developers change everything you know and care about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Q15: Laire: Using all of their points, on average how many active skills does a 85 toon have? #LOTRO
A15: Jinjaah: Our goal, and it isn’t the same across the board, is for all classes to have around 20 skills after spending all their points.
A15a: Things like travel paths will not count towards this cap. #LOTRO


Q21: @ForgotMyGambits Hunters currently have a lot of skills. Will there be skill consolidation? #LOTRO
A21: JinJaah Yes. There is some skill consolidation to reduce the overall skill count to around 20.
A21a: Per specialization. Travel skills won't count towards that number. #LOTRO


Q24: @mavegibson Will there be dramatic changes to the skills we have, and will there be skills specific to our trait lines? #LOTRO
A24: All: Yes and yes!

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Color me worried. :(

20 skills? One of the things that keeps me in this game is that I can't get used to the combat system of other games, where you have a small amount of skills.I love the versatility in the LOTRO combat system, and having a wide range of skills to play with....

Please don't ruin this. :(


Also, I didn't get my question answered but I think it's very important to the matter:

What happens to the current system of traiting freely? For example, right now, I can trait any 4 yellow traits that I want with any 3 blue. Will I still be able to do that?

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Q1: bgriggs: Are the current virtues and traits being incorporated into the new system at all? #LOTRO
A1: HoarseDev: Virtues will remain mostly the same. Traits are now completely rolled into the new system. #LOTRO

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I'm relieved that virtues will remain "mostly" the same. I understood (or had a general idea based on the WS) what was going to happen with traits on the tree. Couple of things I couldn't find directly in the narrative.... I want to say upfront I didn't go through every post in the thread. First, virtues will remain "mostly" the same, is it a safe assumption that the slight changes will be due to increases based on the new level cap? (going from 16-18?) Second and most important: I have a toon who is traited exactly the way I want it for the purpose I use it. I don't want to change anything on it at all. Day 1 this rolls out will the current traits translate to a tree based skill (for example: will "barbed fury" +20% barbed arrow bleed damage) still be specified with that language on the tree somewhere, or are new names being assigned to trait skills?

The condensing of our skills down to a list of 20 I find to be a bit worrisome personally. I can't think of how classes like Loremasters and Runekeepers could be condensed from their current lists of skills down to a mere 20. As it stands for LMs they have their couple of single target damage skills, their aoe damage skills, their multiple debuff skills, their crowd control skills, their warding circle, their couple of healing skills, their power skills and their pets(which I assume like hunter ports aren't included in the skill count). With RKs you have three different damage skill types Lightning, Fire and Frost, you have your healing skills and some misc skills for armor, power, etc. Other classes similarly have their attacking skills and then their threat or heal or crowd control or debuff or buff skills.

When we first heard that the class/skill/trait revamps would include some skill condensing again I went into my high level classes and tried to figure out what skills I could be condensed and still keep the uniqueness and diversity of our classes roles based on our traiting and honestly I couldn't find many skills that could be condensed without losing the unique roles that are created by the traiting for example as an LM to be Debuff/CC/Power or Heal/Pet or DPS or some amalgam thereof.

So what skill classifications are included in this list of 20 skills? Is it only the Damage and Heal skills or is it all skills Debuff, Buff, Threat, Crowd Control, Tricks, Traps, etc?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by furtim

Apparently, I missed the memo declaring that "revamped" is the same thing as "thrown away". ;)

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If they're basing class trees on the mounted combat trees, a good guess would be 3. But that is as guess.

Edit: oops, grabbed the wrong quote! *sigh*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sapience

This is an example of people trying way too hard to read things into comments.

Are we adding a new class for Helm's Deep? No.

Then there's the reality of the larger impossible to answer questions which we usually ignore. Questions with "ever" or "never" in them.
Are we EVER going to add a new class? Great question. Maybe. Maybe Not. "Ever" is a really, incredibly long time. I'm going to go out on a limb and bet no one can answer a question like that about what they may or may not do at any point in the future.

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Then put a little more thought into your responses then that. Your response was worded in such a way that someone could easily think this was a possibility, guess its a good thing I did not reply. Would really hate to have the community manager go out of his way to make me look like an ###. Reading too much into everything a dev posts is like breathing on gaming forums and you should know better then that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peresbert

I hope not. That would make hunters too overpowered for me.

Also I asked this during the chat, but never got the answer. What type of consolidation/complete redoing of the traits/skills are being done to make the 20 skills doable for all. The first class that comes to mind is Lore Master. It seems like they will suffer because most of their current skills build on each other and they all serve a purpose.

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Don't forget that there will be multiple trait trees, and some skills will be specific to particular trees chosen. So there is plenty of room for skills to be spread across multiple trees. For example, a CC LM tree might have cracked earth, and a DPS tree might not. People get skills based on the way they spend their points, so, as the devs stated, people will have the ability to hybridize their builds as well. Pick and choose - to some degree at least - which skills they get.

I'm basing these assumptions on what I've read, and also on my experience with EQ2, which I've played and has a similar tree system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vexendynamus

MMOs are such strange animals. You find one you really like, play it with great enthusiasm, and then the developers change everything you know and care about.

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Ageed. I left EQ2 and never looked back when they completely revamped combat. I enjoyed playing the game the way I was playing it and had zero interest in re-learning from the ground up. To put in that kind of effort I might as well play a new game. So I did.

In that game I only had one character. In this game I play five different classes. I'm getting very very antsy at the thought of having to relearn them all.

I am cautiously optimistic. It should be interesting to see how they condense class skills down to 20. I'm not sure I could make the changes necessary to drop my number of lore-master skills from over 70 (not including travel skills) to about 20 per spec.

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Q5: banjolier: For players who spent TP to unlock trait slots, how will you convert our existing purchases to the new system? #LOTRO
A5: HoarseDev: Your specialization choice gives you access to bonuses as you spend points. #LOTRO
A5a: These are unlocked in the same way as the old slots and those purchases carry over to the new system. #LOTRO

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I don't see how this works. We get some a list of traits to choose from, most gated by prouvious trait unlocks. We get a number of points by completing deeds and leveling up. Is there some limit of how many points we can spend? If skills get more tied to your trait setup. Does not having that slots give a bigger handicap as does now?



Another thing I'm wondering about: class and legendaries go into the new system, virtues are almost left untouched. What about racial traits?

Hmm, this devchat turned out better than I expected ;)
About the reduction to ~20 skills: Do I assume correctly that more skills will be gated by traits than currently? So the total skill number per class won't change that much, but our current skillset is much more dependent on the active traits. If yes, how much consolidation will there be in the total number of skills?

I have many of concerns with these changes.

It the specialization you pick defines the role of the class, how will it effect captains as they dont really have a defined role.

Are some gambit combinations gated in the trait trees and if so wont this make playing a warden even harder as you will have to remember which gambits work with each build you have and which ones dont.

Will a RK still have access to healing skills when trait d for DPS.

Will a champ be able to switch to glory if they have traited for AOE damage or will the glory skill be locked as it is part of another tree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PKCrichton

The condensing of our skills down to a list of 20 I find to be a bit worrisome personally. I can't think of how classes like Loremasters and Runekeepers could be condensed from their current lists of skills down to a mere 20. As it stands for LMs they have their couple of single target damage skills, their aoe damage skills, their multiple debuff skills, their crowd control skills, their warding circle, their couple of healing skills, their power skills and their pets(which I assume like hunter ports aren't included in the skill count). With RKs you have three different damage skill types Lightning, Fire and Frost, you have your healing skills and some misc skills for armor, power, etc. Other classes similarly have their attacking skills and then their threat or heal or crowd control or debuff or buff skills.

When we first heard that the class/skill/trait revamps would include some skill condensing again I went into my high level classes and tried to figure out what skills I could be condensed and still keep the uniqueness and diversity of our classes roles based on our traiting and honestly I couldn't find many skills that could be condensed without losing the unique roles that are created by the traiting for example as an LM to be Debuff/CC/Power or Heal/Pet or DPS or some amalgam thereof.

So what skill classifications are included in this list of 20 skills? Is it only the Damage and Heal skills or is it all skills Debuff, Buff, Threat, Crowd Control, Tricks, Traps, etc?

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I would imagine that it will go something like this: If you as a LM trait Red (MoNF), then you probably won't have half of your debuffing and healing skills. RK seems even more clear to me: If you are Red traited, you probably won't have many Fury of Storm skills or Words of Healing skills. I'm sure they will leave a couple of basic ones, but you probably won't have, for example, Epic for the Ages or Rousing Words on your bar, period.

Think about mounted combat, and if you haven't done what i'm about to say, I encourage you to try it out and verify it. My Guardian has two Mounted Combat builds-- Light and Heavy. Now, my bars for these two builds are entirely independent of each other. So, if you are traited Heavy, and you go all the way down the Red tree, you would have access to the skill Trample. However, if you switch to Light, then that skill is no longer available.

TL;DR I would imagine that we won't likely 'lose' very many skills (I'm talking about LM and RK specifically), but they will be gated behind particular Specializations. Healing RK won't have the same full list of skills as a Fury of Storm RK. Yellow LM will probably not have all the DPS skills that MoNF LM has. Etc, etc.

Maybe I'm wrong, I've been wrong already today so I wouldn't be surprised.

I feel like we got a pretty good snapshot of what a post-HD hunter will be like, I just wish they had have given more examples from other classes. In my opinion, the hunter is probably the easiest class to conceptualize in this sort of system since they basically have a singular role with several 'supporting' options. What about less straightforward classes like LM and Captain? One can make assumptions based on the hunter answer, which would suggest trees are DPS/Survivability/Other (which seems super lazy and clunky for some classes), but without additional examples it's hard to know. Perhaps Hunter is the class most fleshed out at this point (totally scary thought) and that is why they gave no other examples. I do realize that twitter is not a great place to give in-depth answers, but if we could get a few follow ups to "Q20: @osmihu Can you give some specific examples of specializations?" beyond the hunter. That would be awesome and generally helpful in understanding how this is going to work for different classes. Yes, I get that there will be Dev Diaries at some point, but the pace of information up to this point has be unreasonably slow for a product expected at the end of Nov/beginning of Dec.

I am also curious about "A3: HoarseDev: You’ll earn a point every other level. You’ll also earn points from some deeds." Which deeds? It seems to be indicated later that you'll get skill points from class skill deeds, but what about landscape/virtue deeds? I dislike grinding landscape deeds but I also don't want to miss out on any points for my character to spend on traits. Will I have to go grind out all the deeds I skipped to maximize me character now?

Now that the background questions are done, how about some more concrete info about what this all actually means?

How many points will a lvl 95 character have to spent? I'm guessing somewhere in the 50-60 range based on a point every other level plus many class deeds giving points.
How many points will it take to fill one of the 3 trees and/or how many total points would it take to fill every trait?


How do the trees actually work? Is this a linear tree with branches where I must get X trait to progress down the X branch to acquire trait Y, which is the one I actually want? Will there be multiple points to spend in a given trait, and will it be required to spend multiple points on trait X to unlock trait Y? How do we unlock legendary traits for each tree, do we simply have to spend 30 points or whatever tree to unlock the capstone Legendary, or must we unlock specific traits to open the Legendary?

About how many skills can we expect a given tree to unlock (if fully invested in the tree)? 2, 10? will it be significantly different for different classes and trees?

20 Skills for a given class seems REALLY low. What can you say, if anything, to allay my fear that these changes are simplifying classes as much as anything else? Speaking for my warden, there are exactly 2 gambits I don't ever use, or feel are an important part of my arsenal. I'm unsure how you can maintain what we are capable of providing in a given role while bringing our gambits down to 20ish, without consolidating effects, which is just simplification for the sake of simplification. This is a little more pertinent to me on warden, but looking over my skill bars on Guardian, 20 skills wouldn't really cut it there either, without effect consolidation.



I've much more to ask if the Devs continue to reply to this thread.

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Originally Posted by thefamilyosc

Of greater concern to me is exactly how on the fly respecing will work. At present if you respec in MC your skills get moved around. There aren't many of them and most are the same, so no big deal atm, but with the reduction to ~20 skills you can bet that each spec will have a good number of skills specific to it. The thought of getting all the skills in their proper places for my shortcuts/macros/oh-%$&# flailing mouse click every time I respec is annoying at best, potentially daunting if it is a role I play only rarely.

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Of greater concern to me personally, is what ROLES will our toons be given? And how will these roles be incorporated into the mob/mechanics scheme of landscape, instance and Big Battle content.

Okay, so they say that the goal is to make each trait line as interesting and useful and viable (in whatever words they used, close enough) as any other tree/line...

My main - and the only toon I play on LOTRO, though I would consider myself as knowledgeable as is possible about the other classes without playing them each from 1 to cap - is a Loremaster.

I am a big fan of CC in MMOs, and the support role in general. This class (at 65, 75, and 85) has offered me the ability to provide VAST utility to any group that I join no matter how I trait, and almost always in the same ways. Mainly for these reasons:

I can always use DPS skills. Some are boosted by certain traits.

I can always use Debuffs on mobs, and buffs (Air-Lore, SI). Some have durations extended by yellow capstone, and with certain traits can increase the number of Max Targets and add additional effects.

I can always use CC skills (situationally, 2 of these are reduced by certain traits, additionally one is a non-capstone Legendary Trait). Traits themselves (not trait-set bonuses) only help in this by adding +5 targets to Herb-Lore with Deep Lore, and removal of Blinding Flash's induction with Fast Loader.

I can always use the skills Beacon of Hope and Water Lore to heal my party, and any LM can set-swap 4 Memory of the West or 4 H-Animal Friend to share flanks. I mention only these because traiting blue apart from Healer does not directly add anything to an LM's healing capabilities and in fact can cause the group to take more damage overall vs. permanent debuffs (and VERY similar healing output, since Improved Inner Flame and Improved Flanking are kinda moot - the only real benefit to any blue trait apart from Healer in regards to actually healing is the ten second CD reduction to Beacon of Hope by traiting Light of Hope.

I can't speak to what the changes will mean to my day-to-day gameplay, but I have high hopes, and am with great sorrow preparing to have them crushed.

I love to trait yellow for both the debuffs and the disgustingly wide array of not-reduced control skills at my disposal, this will be the first line that I use post HD because it is what I need to learn in order to perform my classes main role in raids.

But will yelllow even BE a viable role for LMs? In what content? Is this line being designed to function in any piece of 1-24man content?

I never unslot Harmony with Nature or Healer, the power-saving feature is nice, the more healing is nice, but what is REALLY important about both of these traits is the -% to corresponding skill inductions.

No matter your traits or your capstone-goals, being able to execute your skills faster (so using more skills, and being able to move again when induction/animation finishes) are essential to gameplay. In the conversion from trait-block/set effects to points-put-into-trees effects, I hope both are included in some form, or that inductions are regularized(?) so that the class does not become unplayable (for me) if choice or amount of available points prevent a player from being able to choose both.

In the current game, I can trait yellow and CC til the cows come and still offer everything that a "vanilla" LM has to offer. This is important for the LMs true role of support, which I find difficult to put directly into one tree, and am concerned what each line will truly mean for my character.

If I trait red/blue, will I retain any CC potential at all?

If I trait yellow, will I have any healing potential at all?

Is a red-line LM intended to be strictly a tactical Champion at last (by direct design, rather than the lack of CC-requiring content in the live game)?

Is a blue-line LM intended to be strictly a Green-pumpin' healbot?

What is going to happen to my debuff and crowd controlling potential across the board?

I want to play a CCing and debuffing, spot-healing, power sharing Lore-Master. I want this to be viable for all content.

I do not want my new blue-line to entirely remove all of the LM's potential to debuff and CC and deal (vanilla) LM dmage. I do not want my new red-line to entirely remove all of the LM's potential to debufff and CC and heal.

Each class has a main role.

Tanks are tanks. Healers are healers. DPSers are DPSers. Support is Support.

But will this be the case for my LM?

The yellow line for the LM is basically the "LM line". What red offers to us is more damage, what blue offers is healing. How much of what the LMs true role in this game will fit into those roles, and what becomes of the yellow?

"DPS" with red?

"Heals" with blue?

"Support" with yellow?

What am I?

:c

If I choose to play how the LM as its support role (I wil spend points into whatever trees necessary to meet that goal), will I be a waste of a slot to a group in most content because my damage will be weak(er than it could) and my heals... will I HAVE any heals?

Clearly, this would not fit into the twitter chat lol. Sorry for the long read.

So, the "20 skills" issue is something I'd like to address.

First, it is referring to skills which actively impact gameplay. Things such as teleports, pets, stances, and fluff skills (and probably another category which I'm not thinking of off the top of my head) will not count against that amount.

Second, the "20 skills" is not a hard and fast number, but more of a general guideline. You may end up with more or less, depending on your specialization.

Third, each class has a pool of general skills (skills we feel are important to all three specialization lines) and more specific skills. How you choose to invest your traits will have an impact on what skills are available to you. I'll use the Burglar as an example. Please bear in mind some of the specific skills I'm mentioning are new, and we'll discuss their impact at a later time.

Some general skills every single Burglar will eventually have access to include (but are not limited to): Riddle, Subtle Stab, Double-edged Strike, Reveal Weakness and Hide in Plain Sight. Now, if I choose to specialize as a Gambler, I'll immediately gain access to Lucky Strike and Hedge Your Bet. From here, I could completely fill in the Gambler tree, picking up skills such as Gambler's Advantage, Trip and All In. Or, I could choose to not invest all of my points in Gambler to pick up Stun Dust from the Quiet Knife line and Trick: Dust in the Eyes from the Mischief-maker line.

The exact number of skills you have will vary, based on how you choose to specialize your character and spend your trait points.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble

I would imagine that it will go something like this: If you as a LM trait Red (MoNF), then you probably won't have half of your debuffing and healing skills. RK seems even more clear to me: If you are Red traited, you probably won't have many Fury of Storm skills or Words of Healing skills. I'm sure they will leave a couple of basic ones, but you probably won't have, for example, Epic for the Ages or Rousing Words on your bar, period.

Think about mounted combat, and if you haven't done what i'm about to say, I encourage you to try it out and verify it. My Guardian has two Mounted Combat builds-- Light and Heavy. Now, my bars for these two builds are entirely independent of each other. So, if you are traited Heavy, and you go all the way down the Red tree, you would have access to the skill Trample. However, if you switch to Light, then that skill is no longer available.

TL;DR I would imagine that we won't likely 'lose' very many skills (I'm talking about LM and RK specifically), but they will be gated behind particular Specializations. Healing RK won't have the same full list of skills as a Fury of Storm RK. Yellow LM will probably not have all the DPS skills that MoNF LM has. Etc, etc.

Maybe I'm wrong, I've been wrong already today so I wouldn't be surprised.

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Based on the information we have received so far I think you are much more right than you are wrong. Thanks for the above examples regarding RKs and LMs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RockX

So, the "20 skills" issue is something I'd like to address.

First, it is referring to skills which actively impact gameplay. Things such as teleports, pets, stances, and fluff skills (and probably another category which I'm not thinking of off the top of my head) will not count against that amount.

Second, the "20 skills" is not a hard and fast number, but more of a general guideline. You may end up with more or less, depending on your specialization.

Third, each class has a pool of general skills (skills we feel are important to all three specialization lines) and more specific skills. How you choose to invest your traits will have an impact on what skills are available to you. I'll use the Burglar as an example. Please bear in mind some of the specific skills I'm mentioning are new, and we'll discuss their impact at a later time.

Some general skills every single Burglar will eventually have access to include (but are not limited to): Riddle, Subtle Stab, Double-edged Strike, Reveal Weakness and Hide in Plain Sight. Now, if I choose to specialize as a Gambler, I'll immediately gain access to Lucky Strike and Hedge Your Bet. From here, I could completely fill in the Burglar tree, picking up skills such as Gambler's Advantage, Trip and All In. Or, I could choose to not invest all of my points in Gambler to pick up Stun Dust from the Quiet Knife line and Trick: Dust in the Eyes from the Mischief-maker line.

The exact number of skills you have will vary, based on how you choose to specialize your character and spend your trait points.

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Thanks for this. It's pretty much exactly what I was assuming. I think people sometimes just take things a lot too literally, and get worked up for no good reason.

Also, let's try to remember that a huge part of this will not come clear to us until we get a chance to actually use it and see for ourselves how the system works, and there's nothing wrong with that. We don't NEED to have all the answers right this minute. I'm OK with there being some mystery to it. I can wait until BR or release to have the rest of my questions answered, perhaps with a dev diary somewhere along the road as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sthrax

I really, really despise trait tree systems. They try to give you an appearance of choice, but inevitably force you to put skills into things you don't want or need in order to get the things you do. They are also min/max'er dreams come true, and your goal of differentiating members of the same class will last as long as it takes the min/max'ers to figure out what the best build is. Then we are exactly where we are now.

Unfortunately, nothing in the dev chat lead me to believe that this revamp is an improvement.

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as much as i despise trait tree's as well, i must disagree. Lotro is unique in that the classes all can perform 3 different roles. Champs can be single target dps, AoE DPS, or extremely viable Tanks, RK can be Burst DPS, Heals, and Sustain DoT. There will be no "best build" because of the variety of things each class can perform. there will be a "best build" for each of the specific roles, and that will be maxed out corresponding trees, but other than that, there is no best build. That is the beauty of this. it will be unlike any other tree system out there, so Kudos for that, but i still hate this system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RockX

So, the "20 skills" issue is something I'd like to address.

First, it is referring to skills which actively impact gameplay. Things such as teleports, pets, stances, and fluff skills (and probably another category which I'm not thinking of off the top of my head) will not count against that amount.

Second, the "20 skills" is not a hard and fast number, but more of a general guideline. You may end up with more or less, depending on your specialization.

Third, each class has a pool of general skills (skills we feel are important to all three specialization lines) and more specific skills. How you choose to invest your traits will have an impact on what skills are available to you. I'll use the Burglar as an example. Please bear in mind some of the specific skills I'm mentioning are new, and we'll discuss their impact at a later time.

Some general skills every single Burglar will eventually have access to include (but are not limited to): Riddle, Subtle Stab, Double-edged Strike, Reveal Weakness and Hide in Plain Sight. Now, if I choose to specialize as a Gambler, I'll immediately gain access to Lucky Strike and Hedge Your Bet. From here, I could completely fill in the Gambler tree, picking up skills such as Gambler's Advantage, Trip and All In. Or, I could choose to not invest all of my points in Gambler to pick up Stun Dust from the Quiet Knife line and Trick: Dust in the Eyes from the Mischief-maker line.

The exact number of skills you have will vary, based on how you choose to specialize your character and spend your trait points.

---

Hey Rock, thanks for this clarification and example. Really helps in starting to get an understanding on how the tree system will work. Please keep coming back with more gems of information, and encourage your Dev friends to do the same.

The skill trees still bother me even with these questions answered. It seems like making a build where you are a hybrid is going to be thrown out the window which pigeonholes people into playing the game not their way. I detest skill trees in other games like WoW and SWTOR for the sheer fact that you have to put points into skills you may not even bother using but because you need a certain amount of points to open up the next level of skills you get shafted. I'm hoping that there is more clarification on this because I do play a minstrel and honestly I don't like being stuck always as a healer. I play most of the game on my own and it seems like if I'm going to have to choose being just being a glass canon or standing there and healing myself while I occasionally auto attack something, fear it or whatever.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rhuvor

Hey Rock, thanks for this clarification and example. Really helps in starting to get an understanding on how the tree system will work. Please keep coming back with more gems of information, and encourage your Dev friends to do the same.

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That would depend on the number of cookys you have to offer. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RockX

So, the "20 skills" issue is something I'd like to address.

First, it is referring to skills which actively impact gameplay. Things such as teleports, pets, stances, and fluff skills (and probably another category which I'm not thinking of off the top of my head) will not count against that amount.

Second, the "20 skills" is not a hard and fast number, but more of a general guideline. You may end up with more or less, depending on your specialization.

Third, each class has a pool of general skills (skills we feel are important to all three specialization lines) and more specific skills. How you choose to invest your traits will have an impact on what skills are available to you. I'll use the Burglar as an example. Please bear in mind some of the specific skills I'm mentioning are new, and we'll discuss their impact at a later time.

Some general skills every single Burglar will eventually have access to include (but are not limited to): Riddle, Subtle Stab, Double-edged Strike, Reveal Weakness and Hide in Plain Sight. Now, if I choose to specialize as a Gambler, I'll immediately gain access to Lucky Strike and Hedge Your Bet. From here, I could completely fill in the Gambler tree, picking up skills such as Gambler's Advantage, Trip and All In. Or, I could choose to not invest all of my points in Gambler to pick up Stun Dust from the Quiet Knife line and Trick: Dust in the Eyes from the Mischief-maker line.

The exact number of skills you have will vary, based on how you choose to specialize your character and spend your trait points.

---

Thanks for this clarification and example RockX!

One question I have with the '20 Skills' is if our skill bars are totally 'redrawn' each time we retrait just as Mounted Combat currently does when we change our current trait spec? That is when you swap from 1 to 2 suddenly the entire skill list is redrawn and placed into our skill bars that we then have to resort to being in the layout that we each personally like best for playing. Or will we be able to slot every skill the way we currently can for our characters and then have skill grey out when our traiting doesn't support the use of that skill. This is one of the things I've found frustrating with changing horse specs in Mounted Combat even though its not more than about 9 skills you are moving around.

*shrug*

I've read the thread and really what I take out of it is that Twitter is a really awkward way to do chats.

*bows*

Thanks you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tallon617

The skill trees still bother me even with these questions answered. It seems like making a build where you are a hybrid is going to be thrown out the window which pigeonholes people into playing the game not their way. I detest skill trees in other games like WoW and SWTOR for the sheer fact that you have to put points into skills you may not even bother using but because you need a certain amount of points to open up the next level of skills you get shafted. I'm hoping that there is more clarification on this because I do play a minstrel and honestly I don't like being stuck always as a healer. I play most of the game on my own and it seems like if I'm going to have to choose being just being a glass canon or standing there and healing myself while I occasionally auto attack something, fear it or whatever.

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You misunderstood, I think. We will still have a red line and war speech, I suppose.

That aside, what REALLY worries me as a minstrel is the 'hybrid' potential that I have. I always trait 4 yellow (for max anthem duration, min anthem cooldown) and 3 blue for +crit heals, +healing on crit heals and no induction Raise the Spirit.

Now, say one of the blues that I like to trait is the last one on the tree, therefore requiring me to spend many points to unlock it, taking from my ability to trait other yellows.

Furthermore, let's assume I traited red to go DPS in the moors, but suddenly things get ugly and I need to drop War Speech and heal, for what I understand, I will not have all of my healing skills available and vice versa. This is bad.

My Lore Master is my next 'main', and I worry about being limited to some skills depending on how I trait.

I don't really understand what motivated them to fix something that isn't broken.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PKCrichton

Thanks for this clarification and example RockX!

One question I have with the '20 Skills' is if our skill bars are totally 'redrawn' each time we retrait just as Mounted Combat currently does when we change our current trait spec? That is when you swap from 1 to 2 suddenly the entire skill list is redrawn and placed into our skill bars that we then have to resort to being in the layout that we each personally like best for playing. Or will we be able to slot every skill the way we currently can for our characters and then have skill grey out when our traiting doesn't support the use of that skill. This is one of the things I've found frustrating with changing horse specs in Mounted Combat even though its not more than about 9 skills you are moving around.

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While skills you no longer have access to on changing specs are removed from your toolbar, they are returned to the same locations when you switch back into the spec. I'd think you shouldn't have to re-arrange your toolbars too much, if at all.

At least, that's how it's functioning as of 5 seconds ago on my internal build. I needed to double-check.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thefamilyosc

with the reduction to ~20 skills you can bet that each spec will have a good number of skills specific to it.

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I *think* you misheard. it'll be ~20 skills max counting the spec skills. so many ~13 skills that all lines have, ~7 in each spec. but ofc, traits could make skills change in viability or what they actually do depending on what line you choose. ~10 rotational skills + ~10 cooldown ish skills sounds about right imo. I'm sure that ~20 doesn't account for stances too. so you could still be filling up 2 skills bars on most classes, and more with fluffy stuff.

Quote:

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The thought of getting all the skills in their proper places for my shortcuts/macros/oh-%$&# flailing mouse click every time I respec is annoying at best, potentially daunting if it is a role I play only rarely.

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surprised they didn't answer anything like this. but I wouldn't be surprised if they just make it so each line has it's own bar now (like MC has it's own) so as you switch, you switch to that bar that you set up before hand. ofc, lots more pain than before where you had all 20+ skill as normal, but I'm sure after making save slots and the tool bar, you could switch without needing to change icons around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spelunker

Now that the background questions are done, how about some more concrete info about what this all actually means?

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sounds like you just want a screenshot tbh.

... can we have a screen shot soon :3

example of a 95 with all deeds done and a "hybrid" build :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Granlif

Fire oil and Light oil have always been available from the Hunter Trainer. I always keep a full stack of 50 each!
It might not last as long as the crafted oils, but they work fine. :)

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Yeah, but they are very basic ones that only last 5-10 minutes IIRC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RockX

So, the "20 skills" issue is something I'd like to address.

First, it is referring to skills which actively impact gameplay. Things such as teleports, pets, stances, and fluff skills (and probably another category which I'm not thinking of off the top of my head) will not count against that amount.

Second, the "20 skills" is not a hard and fast number, but more of a general guideline. You may end up with more or less, depending on your specialization.

Third, each class has a pool of general skills (skills we feel are important to all three specialization lines) and more specific skills. How you choose to invest your traits will have an impact on what skills are available to you. I'll use the Burglar as an example. Please bear in mind some of the specific skills I'm mentioning are new, and we'll discuss their impact at a later time.

Some general skills every single Burglar will eventually have access to include (but are not limited to): Riddle, Subtle Stab, Double-edged Strike, Reveal Weakness and Hide in Plain Sight. Now, if I choose to specialize as a Gambler, I'll immediately gain access to Lucky Strike and Hedge Your Bet. From here, I could completely fill in the Gambler tree, picking up skills such as Gambler's Advantage, Trip and All In. Or, I could choose to not invest all of my points in Gambler to pick up Stun Dust from the Quiet Knife line and Trick: Dust in the Eyes from the Mischief-maker line.

The exact number of skills you have will vary, based on how you choose to specialize your character and spend your trait points.

---

Thank you for the clarification. This is what I was envisioning upon reading the transcript of today's Q&A.

Now I am convinced. We did need a dev diary.

What would have made all of this MUCH better, would have been a plainly laid-out plan for each role each class would have.

I use the word "role", but what I really mean is, "what will each trait tree play like in a nutshell per class?"

The post about Huntsman vs Bowmaster is a perfect example - had you given a short and simple outline of the "core" of each line per class, our questions would have been much more meaningful and to the point, there would be less worry and confusion, and you would still be able to avoid unanswerable-due-to-incompletion-of-skills/naming questions simply by sharing your intention for the way the classes will play, the intention, and how you expect it to fit into normal everyday gameplay.

The question that underlies this whole "Dev Chat - Class Changes" is: What is going to happen to me?

Starting out with a simple "If you are this class, then you will be able to build like this, that, or that." would have been more informative than the entire 41 answers that you have given, and it would have given us the opportunity to ask much more meaningful questions that could have provided appropriately meaningful answers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sapience

This is an example of people trying way too hard to read things into comments.

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Not really. When asked about the future plans for a new PvP zone, it was answered with "We have no plans now nor anytime into the future to add a new PvP zone". (not an exact quote, but it was along these lines)

So, saying there are no new classes planned specifically for Helm's Deep does leave it a bit open-ended for speculation, especially for those that have been asking for a new class.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by narainadun

there will be a "best build" for each of the specific roles, and that will be maxed out corresponding trees, but other than that, there is no best build. That is the travesty of this. it will be just like any other tree system out there, so Kudos for that, but i still hate this system.

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Fixed. Well the skill tree concept looks markedly similar to ones I've seen in WoW, Diablo and most MMO's. As for it's impact, color me worried that it's going to further dumb down Wardens. Warden gambits are fun as is, there's a high skill ceiling to maximising DPS, and balancing threat/survivability by thinking 15 seconds in advance to plan out an optimal rotation for individual fights.

Will going fully down a tree(s) yield more or fewer gambits overall? Will we be able to switch trait specs in combat to go from tank to DPS or is my Tank warden going to be stuck in Determination Stance without any spear bleed gambits once the the first boss is down? At that point you might as well have a Champion tank with higher DPS on the first boss.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RockX

...Hedge Your Bet...

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by RockX

All In...

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by RockX

Stun Dust!!!

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I think many burglars are now sat straight on there chair, eyes open, hair feet hairy, drooling at information ^_^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

I think many burglars are now sat straight on there chair, eyes open, hair feet hairy, drooling at information ^_^

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I kind of figured that might happen with whatever one I mentioned as an example. It happened to be the class I was fixing a bug with at the time of writing the post.

Questions:

When you complete a deed you get some amount of TPs. Some of the deeds are class deeds, the onse that unblock the class traits, but now these are going to be replaced by the skill trees.

So is legit to assume that there will be no TPs from class deeds any longer?

And if that's so, do you plan to finish the virtues systems and deeds/TPs that are associated with them, in a near future, decreasing the amount of TPs that one character can earn in game?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ithrien

Now I am convinced. We did need a dev diary.

What would have made all of this MUCH better, would have been a plainly laid-out plan for each role each class would have.

I use the word "role", but what I really mean is, "what will each trait tree play like in a nutshell per class?"

The post about Huntsman vs Bowmaster is a perfect example - had you given a short and simple outline of the "core" of each line per class, our questions would have been much more meaningful and to the point, there would be less worry and confusion, and you would still be able to avoid unanswerable-due-to-incompletion-of-skills/naming questions simply by sharing your intention for the way the classes will play, the intention, and how you expect it to fit into normal everyday gameplay.

The question that underlies this whole "Dev Chat - Class Changes" is: What is going to happen to me?

Starting out with a simple "If you are this class, then you will be able to build like this, that, or that." would have been more informative than the entire 41 answers that you have given, and it would have given us the opportunity to ask much more meaningful questions that could have provided appropriately meaningful answers.

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+ /rep for this :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pakelf

Questions:

When you complete a deed you get some amount of TPs. Some of the deeds are class deeds, the ones that unblock the class traits, but now these are going to be replaced by the skill trees.

So is legit to assume that there will be no TPs from class deeds any longer?

And if that's so, do you plan to finish the virtues systems and deeds/TPs that are associated with them, in a near future, decreasing the amount of TPs that one character can earn in game?

---

This is my concern also: how do these class changes/trait trees impact earning TP from deeds?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elemiire

You misunderstood, I think. We will still have a red line and war speech, I suppose.

That aside, what REALLY worries me as a minstrel is the 'hybrid' potential that I have. I always trait 4 yellow (for max anthem duration, min anthem cooldown) and 3 blue for +crit heals, +healing on crit heals and no induction Raise the Spirit.

Now, say one of the blues that I like to trait is the last one on the tree, therefore requiring me to spend many points to unlock it, taking from my ability to trait other yellows.

Furthermore, let's assume I traited red to go DPS in the moors, but suddenly things get ugly and I need to drop War Speech and heal, for what I understand, I will not have all of my healing skills available and vice versa. This is bad.

My Lore Master is my next 'main', and I worry about being limited to some skills depending on how I trait.

I don't really understand what motivated them to fix something that isn't broken.

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I imagine, since you said you don't currently use the capstone legendary traits, you will have enough skill points to keep the same hybrid build. The benefits and drawbacks of choosing a specification line will probably the biggest obstacle in determining which skills you have access to.

At any rate, all classes have something unique regardless of whether they're red, blue or yellow. A minstrel will always be able to heal. If you are currently traited red, your heals will not be as effective. Under the new system, I imagine if you choose a DPS tree you will not have access to the powerful healing skills, but you will still have some way to heal yourself at least. Because you're a minstrel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RockX

While skills you no longer have access to on changing specs are removed from your toolbar, they are returned to the same locations when you switch back into the spec. I'd think you shouldn't have to re-arrange your toolbars too much, if at all.

At least, that's how it's functioning as of 5 seconds ago on my internal build. I needed to double-check.

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This is interesting to learn and different from either option I expected.

So I'm beating the same bush here and trying to fully understand how this will work. So as you've stated we will have our generic skills that are common to all trait trees that will then always be present on our bars. Then as you trait deeper we'll get access to the other skill to place on our bars. If we then change to a different trait setup those skills won't grey out but will vanish entirely so we won't even know that we had a skill in those slots. Now we have new skills that we can slot and have to guess which locations we haven't already utilized by our now nonvisble untraited skills. We do this a total of 3 times to get all our skills slotted on our bars and then we can go and do whatever traiting we want at a given time and hope that we haven't overslotted our other skills..... I see this as being a bit of an irritation for the first few times you swap out your traits as you will undoubtedly accidentally overwrite the skill slot of your skills once in a while as you're doing this. This is from a level 85 perspective without leveling to obtain new skills.

I would like to suggest that this nonvisible be changed to the current greyed out method that we have on live as it will be simpler for people to figure out their skill locations and not be constantly checking the skills and traits for the first few times.

I also see this being a major bother for new leveling characters who won't have access to to all the skills that those of us already at 85 will so instead of how they currently refine the locations of their skills on their bars now they have to remember the locations of their nonvisible skills to work around as they level and gain access to new skills. I see that as a major headache for altaholics and new players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RockX

...cookys...

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Now I know why we end up with so many spelling mistakes in the quest dialogues. :)

Honestly, while I've had concerns about various hunter traits and skills over the years, I really don't want to learn a whole new game. This doesn't sound fun to me, and especially the whole short-range/long-range deal is not something I'm interested in. May be time to take up a new hobby.

Forgive me if this has been asked before; I'm not reading through the multitudes of posts. xD

I'm wondering if the tanking classes are going to be moving in more of an "active mitigation" style of play, a la the champion (or The Other Game's modern tanks). Basically, moving up to a mitigation event, and then employing it when the time is right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Macroscian

And whoa, short range? Hunter is NOT a wannabe champ. Bad, bad idea, sorry.

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I'm fairly certain this is something similar to a BA's skirmisher stance, which has been asked for by many hunters ever since BA's got the stance. If it is, it'll be like 20 or 25m as opposed to the 40m we currently have, not melee range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PKCrichton

One question I have with the '20 Skills' is if our skill bars are totally 'redrawn' each time we retrait just as Mounted Combat currently does when we change our current trait spec?

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I thought they fixed that issue with U10 or U11? Skills are supposed to go back to wherever they were before you lost them due to a retrait.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elderban

Yeah, but they are very basic ones that only last 5-10 minutes IIRC.

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True, but again, usable in combat so the time they last doesn't make too much of a difference unless you're trying to save on inventory room.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pakelf

Questions:

When you complete a deed you get some amount of TPs. Some of the deeds are class deeds, the onse that unblock the class traits, but now these are going to be replaced by the skill trees.

So is legit to assume that there will be no TPs from class deeds any longer?

And if that's so, do you plan to finish the virtues systems and deeds/TPs that are associated with them, in a near future, decreasing the amount of TPs that one character can earn in game?

---

I know they stated it in the interview, but those deeds still exist. They'll give you points to spend in your tree vs giving you the actual traits. I'd assume that since the deeds still exist, the TP attached to them will still exist as well.

Will people be able to inspect people and see what trait trees they have put points into? If not, it would be a nightmare for PUG's with the raid leader not knowing if the captain can heal or if the LM can mez, etc.