Enjoy:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/09...ne-helms-deep/
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Thought splurge incoming:
Nice to get a look at the trait trees at last. Design looks quite snazzy to me, especially the art in the background. And as a LM player myself, Sic 'Em looks SO COOOL *squee*. Just hoping the pets actually do scaled damage. :p
Helm's Deep doesn't look quite how I imagined, but once I go there myself I am sure it'll feel right.
Interesting to note that two of the three roles in Big Battles do not appear to involve direct combat. Possibly something that the upscaled participants can do without the capped players throwing a fit about 'noobs'?
As far as what's coming with it, we knew most of it already, or it was to be expected. No new mounted skills is a shame though.
snippit for the people crazy about class revamps :)
http://www.blogcdn.com/massively.joy...kPnDeScynj.jpg
"The class revamp is a major part of the expansion, and Turbine was happy to show us an early version of the new trait tree interface. The team had grown unhappy with two major observations regarding class development: that the early game was too unfocused and lacked choices when it came to class builds, and that the late game ended up featuring classes that were all good at more or less the same things. Hence the desire to give meaningful choices early on with an emphasis on creating memorable and focused builds. "
http://www.blogcdn.com/massively.joy...NvHab1QsKX.jpg
"any class skills will be overhauled for the expansion, with different animations, faster animations, and even some replacement skills. Here the Lore-master demonstrates the Keeper of the Animals trait capstone skill, Sic 'Em. Basically, it's a dogpile of animals on top of your enemy. We can get behind that!
Turbine said that the player council members were among the very first people to see the class trait revamps; they have provided invaluable feedback for tuning the new system. "
The roles system for BB concerns me to be honest, since I love traditional instances, esp long raids built around the trinity system. Not enough details for me to freak out yet. With any luck the revamps will allow for better scaling of past instances. If they scale our existing crop of 3, 6, 12 mans on launch, with relevant gear, etc, AND they're more challenging than they currently are, then I won't truly miss a traditional instance cluster. That said, they really need to have something OD like in the works for the spring update. BB may be fun and exciting for all we know at this point, but it doesn't look like they'll really need me playing uber tank atm, and tanking is kind of my lotro raison d'etre.
ughhhQuote:
Originally Posted by thefamilyosc
12 people, 2 tanks, 2 healer, 8 dps. hate it.
especially in 6mans.
we need buffers and debuffers more in this game to add depth tbh. or else we might as well reduce the group size...
Okay, I'll grant that my trinity comment was ill-chosen. I love instances that require cc/debuffers/etc that aren't contained within the definition of the 'trinity'. My word choice was primarily driven by my love of tanking. Give me an OD or ToO style raid and I'm a happy boy.
oh ok. sorry then.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefamilyosc
I suspect healers and tanks will be some of the most nurfed in this update. tanks can take so much damage lately, healers can output some silly numbers too. I suspect we'll need more "support" to keep us up. but thats pure speculation on what "our classes can do too much" was from twitter ages ago.
also, they've mentioned big battles are not a replacement for instance clusters or skirmishes. they should all reward slightly differantly and should all be viable in there own way. if you don't like BB, doesn't matter.
Well it does matter for now because we're not getting a new instance cluster or skirmish(es). This is of course assuming that the rewards for the scaled instances aren't great because Turbine wants us to focus on the new shiny system (BB).Quote:
Originally Posted by bohbashum
new classes will change the difficulty in the instances. which is one of the big 2 issues atm. difficulty and the reward system. there is enough group content out there and BB is basically new instances. if your not classing that as new group content, your being too fussy imo. even a new instance would have mechanics many people might not like, so BB will do.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNightAngel
Oo those trees look realy nice! Can't wait to see all the new stuff, I have high hopes for this pack.
Edit: Come to think of it those trees looks like Turbines other MMO's (DDO) class enhancement trees; also with this tree system, i hope they remove the use x skill- x number of times.
I dont remember Theoden ordering siege weapons to be fired at hoards of orcs at the battle of the Hornburg
Highly doubt they'll remove the xskill y times aspect. They've already stated that completing class deeds, in conjunction with the 1pt every 2 levels, is how we'll get our tree pts. The change that is coming is that we won't have to earn the trait before we can get its effect, we'll have pts from other sources, the deeds won't be unlocking skills/effects, just giving us more pts to invest. Keeping the class deeds allows for a more incremental improvement of our classes as we level, complimented by the steady and immediate benefits supplied by levelling pts. Entirely possible they'll adjust the totals required for the deeds, but I don't personally see a proper way to change the deeds away from 'use Force Opening x times'.
Hmm you have a good point there, I am glad to see that you will be able to get "some" of those trait points from leveling (yay for reduced grind). I must wonder how will the new/improved animations look, and how combat will feel with these changes; cause for me personally the WoW style comebat (click click click) is getting realy old.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefamilyosc
True, bit of a lore stretch, but an understandable one. Hell, given the prudence and competence displayed by Erkenbrand, it isn't even that much of a stetch. I could easily see him having a few catapults built and ready. The way I look at lore is a bit different that others, I'll grant. I'm less concerned with "this didn't happen"(or did happen, within reason), than I am with questions of character. To take PJ's work as an example, I don't care that they left out the gift giving in Loth, or even that they had Arwen takes Glorfindel's role in helping the fellowship to Rivendell. But when he had Aragorn sniffing around Eowyn and questioning his devotion etc, that defied fundamental elements of the character(Arwen could have gone to help, lord knows Luthien did, so esp not out of character).Quote:
Originally Posted by cossieuk
The class revamp tree looks horrible. Why they would trash their unique system for this is beyond me(although the little TP coin on the left makes it somewhat more clear as to intent :rolleyes: ). Hope it works out for them, it would be a shame if its a mess. Thanks for posting the pics, more info on the class revamps is most appreciated.
all class deeds will probably give a point now. all deeds that once gave class traits too, including some quests too, moria book, and moria rep. all 3 legendary books will probably give a point each too.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefamilyosc
that counts up to ~75 iinc. which might be too much. so I suspect they will reduce the amount of hit x skill y times by a lot, or even make meta deeds so it down down to maybe ~60 which sounds like a nice number.
looking at the pictures, can see by how he's traited on the first row on red it might take 5 points spent to unlock the next row. it might only take 31 points to get the capstone minimum. 2 points off to go offspec as we've been told. you should be getting your main line full with and maybe 3-4 rows down into another line depending on how many extra points you go into your main.
the bar at the left is most definitely set bonuses that are applied by how many points you've spent overall.
there are not that many dependencies too, like lines that direct you. so I suspect is will be relatively open, so there will be choice within what line you choose.
Less concerned with how they look, more concerned with their length. The older classes in particular suffer mightily(in some cases) from skill duration bloat. Guardian in particular feels clunky at times, especially when tanking and the circumstances require you to use a skill outside of the optimal speed rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by TJH-LOTRO
If this playstyle is getting old for you, then I supremely doubt HD will bring any respite. The game is set, it doesn't have the engine or player base to survive the massive changes which would be required to switch the play style from classic mmo/rpg to a non-target battle system like Tera or ESO. Even attempting it would destroy the game engine and drive away the vast majority of the player base.
The gift giving is in the extended version.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefamilyosc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYzUvfAqkuc
Sorry Thorgrum, your cynicism is flawed this time. The Devs have clearly explained why they trashed the current system(just as an aside; 'unique' does not equal 'good'). Whether you agree with it is a different matter, but they HAVE explained it. The TP symbols are equal to unlocking our current class traits slots, so there's no additional monetary benefit for them there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorgrum
No one said it was good, I think it is but just because I believe it to be good dosent mean others do I concede that. However (and my expirence isn't vast) in the MMO world I would say it is unique. I like that, trait tree's are un appealing to me personally. My character will feel less unique, that's a great basis for cynicism IMHO. Second and most importantly, your assertion that they have explained clearly why why trashed the system is basically in the same vein of your other quote, trashing it dosent equal a good choice. You may believe they have explained it adequately, that's your opinion I don't believe they have. Lastly, the TP symbols are on the visual that has been released. Therefore its a reasonable assumption to say that its a driver in the decision to make the change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyrion
the buffet system was unique... in SoA... since set bonuses it's basically been a stupid tree system with a derpy visuals. it has very cookie cutter builds that have there FTOM every expansion. the "players need choice" argument is kinda moot when I look at how I trait in the real game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorgrum
If you actually looked at the location and orientation of the TP symbols, you'd notice that they are eerily similar to those found in the MC screen, or the LI tab for that matter. They may very well have found a way to carry over the current TP cost for f2p players associated with the current class trait slots to the new system, but that isn't in evidence on this screen. What you are seeing is the prompts to buy extra spec slots, just like the current MC tab. We all get 2 slots free atm, and the vast majority of us will find that sufficient. Most of those who feel the need for more specs will simply divest their pts from one of their saved specs and reinvest as needed. Some will indeed purchase extra slots, and more power to them and more power to turbine if they so choose. Honestly, the best case scenario is the system and upcoming game play are so good, so nuanced, *gasp* maybe even challenging, that we all feel compelled to buy more slots to accomodate all the myriad builds we come up with to confront the content. Doubt it'll get to that pt, but if it does, I'm certainly not going to fault turbine for charging me for the convenience of a few spec slots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorgrum
Turns out that the symbols in the pic were place holders, the spec slots are on the right hand side. However, my point still stands, you're wrong.
I wouldn't ever say you are wrong for liking the current system, but that's not what my point was about. Your original post indicated you had no idea why they're doing it, as in none. The only way you could think that is if you had not read the Devs numerous explanation for it. Not thinking the explanation is good enough is not the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorgrum
Finally, you were insinuating that they were changing the trait system in order to further integrate it into the Store. I pointed out that the change does not do that at all, making it a sideways move(downwards considering the resources the changes will take). At this point in time there is no more discernible profit by making the move to trait trees than they make from our current system, which makes your snark about it unfounded.
Im sure the thousands of people who clamored for this change will be present for its launch with open arms and bathing in its splendor. For the most part you and the others are doing a decent enough job of shouting down, which is a classic lotro fan base reaction. I particularly liked the "snark" commentary, at least you waited until the end to be completely dismissive. Bravo, you've killed my desire to discuss it at all. Ive teetering on apathetic for sometime anyway, really not that important. Enjoy Nyrion and remember, if someone dosent appear to post in the vein you would like, skip the ad hominem go right for the dismissal it will save you and them a lot of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyrion
*gasp* im sure the store has nothing to do with the change. A brilliant deduction on my part, wouldn't you agree? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by thefamilyosc
Mostly true(at least as I understand it). The turbine profit motive for these changes isn't in monetizing the trees from the store, at least not enough to make the changes worthwhile in themselves. Their motive was to update the classes and the way they play as one levels to attract and retain new players. Knowing you have to wait until lvl 50 to use skill x and then having to use it 1500 times to make it useful does new players absolutely no good. Some will find a reason to stay and eventually get their classes to a useable pt, but many will see only grind and leave. I've always said you need to play to at LEAST 30 before you get any kind of feel for how fun a class is to play, even higher for some classes(warden esp). If the changes inject even just a little fun and a proper glimpse into the class at alower level then it may help retain new players. Without noobs the game dies, simple as that, because existing player bases are never enough to fund new content on their own. People always leave(admittedly turbine has played a role in driving some away), if we don't replenish then we end up with no game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyrion
My own experience in MMO's is when changes to the trait system are revamped, players leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by bohbashum
My own reasons for leaving WOW after 5 years was due to this. I had a couple toons that had a hybrid spec. With their revamp I was forced to spend x amount of points in a single tree before dipping into others. (basically 90% of the points)
Lotro's current system was nice because you could pick any trait from any tree at any time.
My other concerns about this xpac is that tanks will become used far less and ultimately become a useless class. I play tanks and an RK healer. I think this xpac is going to bring more of the new holy trinity into play. That holy trinity is 8 dps and 2 cappies. Since the mobs will hit like wet noodles any dps champ will be able to tank the harder mobs. The way the game is now pretty much every 6 man can be run without a proper tank or healer.
What role will these classes play in the future. Will they in fact become dps classes? If that's the case I gotta say I'm not buying it. I rolled a guardian and Warden for a reason. To tank instances. To me it's more enjoyable than having to figure out which 4 button spam is going to give me the most dps.
Once again, no housing update. *sigh*
Seems interesting too bad there wasn't any way for them to see the Big battles that one would really interest me.
As for the class tree revamp i'm still wary, not that i mind the trees but i have seen such revamps go bad as often as good. I do hope it will make the small group content more challenging though.
1) I never said I'm not classing it as new group content. I just said its highly likely Turbine wants us to spend a lot of time doing BB instead of scaled instancesQuote:
Originally Posted by bohbashum
2) True, class changes could change the difficulty. But you assume that just means making them harder, they could also be made easier.
3) Again, true. However, in a perfect world, Turbine would devote resources to building the new BB system and making classic instance clusters to please as many as possible, like they did back in the day. But alas, this is an aging MMO and they never receive as much funding at this point in their lifetime as they did at launch.
My LM is rubbing her hands together, looking forward to Sic 'Em. I wonder how many
critters one can summon at once? Which shall I choose? (Will I have more quickslots
available to put them in? I bet I will.)
they want us to spend a lot of time on the game in general. I don't think it'll make instances complete useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNightAngel
the simple fact there changing classes will mean people will need to relearn the classes. so it will make it harder.Quote:
2) True, class changes could change the difficulty. But you assume that just means making them harder, they could also be made easier.
they have said something along the lines of "our current classes can do to much which makes instances too each. our updated classes won't be able to do everything and have people make some serious choices". which sounds like a nurf in some sence imo.
your point being?Quote:
3) Again, true. However, in a perfect world, Turbine would devote resources to building the new BB system and making classic instance clusters to please as many as possible, like they did back in the day. But alas, this is an aging MMO and they never receive as much funding at this point in their lifetime as they did at launch.
1) Past design decisions would suggest that you're wrong about where they want us to spend time. Plus, when there is a new system designed, they really want players to use it so it wasn't a massive waste of dev time and effort (and money to top it off).Quote:
Originally Posted by bohbashum
2) Possibly, but something can still be scaled so horribly that its easy even with re-learning classes. And once you know your class, it could be trivial. A week buffer of something being hard due to class changes is not a good way to make content difficult.
3) My point was in reply that some people won't like mechanics. Which was a non point in and of itself. Just because some people don't like mechanics won't change Turbine's goals with the content they're producing.
"Sic 'Em" In a way, that exemplifies everything I expect from the class redesign. Whereas lore masters were once philosophers of nature, versed in secret lore, able to beguile enemies and control the battlefield, speaking the elusive languages of wild animals, convincing them to fight the darkness, now, they are gangsters with pit bulls.
I am trying very hard not to judge, but each new piece of information about the class redesign makes my heart sink further. That tree makes me think we are not getting 9 adjusted classes, we are getting 9 completely new, very dumbed down replacements. I hope I am wrong.
good luck trying to find something to back that up. the opposite is easy however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minquinn
don't compare WoW too. WoW changed it's traits every expansion it seems. lotro is doing it's first big one since MoM.
remove your tin foil hat please.Quote:
My other concerns about this xpac is that tanks will become used far less and ultimately become a useless class.
do you really think they would change a class so drastically?
a tank is for tanking. what mechanics is uses it up to devs. but I suspect guardian will be more reactive now than it has been, and warden stay pro active. but it will probably need more support from other classes to keeps it's survival up.
So thats it... "the big bad brother of skirmishes" and "that it'll be the new endgame, replacing the typical expansion addition of new skirmishes, instances, or raids."
REALLY??????
If thats true im really gone from this game. infinte and forever.
And by that reasoning all such trees are stupid - something I'll agree with. But even so, there's cookie cutter builds, yes, and builds to drive toward certain threshold bonuses of a traits set. Yet what we have now doesn't necessarily shove you into slotting certain traits within a set that you don't want. A tree -one, which from the capture I see linked here- will make you choose. You build toward the bottom of talent trees, and in so building have worthless traits shoved on you just get to the one or two you truly want; stupid!- just as you've said. And if they're so bloody stupid I have to wonder why we're even keeping traits, virtues, and even trees?Quote:
Originally Posted by bohbashum
Throwing in talents trees now -these latest- seems more about flash and show -See! This is where the money went! We didn't abscond!- and less about giving players choices. Out of the blue, now, we're needing more rigidly defined roles. Truly? And yet in the same breath Turbine says to massively they aren't making newer contents calling for those sorts of roles to be played.
Right. So we've trees coming now for what then -tarting up contents many of us have been playing on and off over the last six years? Contents I know I don't want to see yet again. Or is it the new talent trees for those three hundreds worth of single-player questings- the sort of drudgery the lot of us could do without slotting a single trait ever?
As they're at it - why not have rid of legendaries, traits, virtues, and even stats? Simply pare our characters down to their roles, the few buttons needing pressing to play them, and the kit they wear. Have it so the hardest choices a player should ever make are character race, class, sex, and then face. After that, once they've logged in, the worst should never come more than the costuming of the day and what colours to dye it.
I'd pay for that. Not much for something so long in the tooth, mind you, but I'd give it go.
I don't think the fear is unfounded, at the moment real Tanks are already pretty useless, at least in 3 and 6 mans. I actually do hope the revamp will make them more relevant again though.Quote:
Originally Posted by bohbashum
where?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNightAngel
it's took ~4 years of most classes having roughly the same rotation. many people's play style will have to change a lot, remember it's not just the trait system but skills and mechanics being fiddled with too.Quote:
2) Possibly, but something can still be scaled so horribly that its easy even with re-learning classes. And once you know your class, it could be trivial. A week buffer of something being hard due to class changes is not a good way to make content difficult.
the contents mechanisms are still working find. just the damage figures don't seem to match up. I suspect a nurf to how open classes are will massively nurf overall survival in the group and cause classes to really think about supporting the group instead of just "how high can my dps be" or "how high can my heals be".
but there is still a vast choice of instances around. don't like the mechanics of one instance, don't do it. simple. in RoR it's been very obvious that a complete solo'er can get great gear. just doing 3/6 instances you can also get great gear that can be slightly better. I don't expect BB to be the focus point of group content when they've told us it's just an alternative to instances and skirmishes. BB will probably give choices of gear and maybe a few better peices, but will not be the only thing viable to do.Quote:
3) My point was in reply that some people won't like mechanics. Which was a non point in and of itself. Just because some people don't like mechanics won't change Turbine's goals with the content they're producing.
when RoF came out, foundry was still good. when ToO came out, dracoch was still good. when OD came out, BG was still good. when revamped helegrod came out, BG was still good. when battle feild stuff in SoA came out, CD and Helegrod were still good. when skirmishes came out, MoM/SoM instances were still good. when erebor came out, hytbolt was still good. when loth came out, moria was still good. when OD came out, watcher was still good. when turtle came out, watcher was still good. when wildermore came out, hytbolt was still good.
do I need to mention more?
sure, we might get more people doing it. sure it might be shiney and new and might have BiS gear. but that doesn't mean it'll be the only one. especially with how much effort they've put in revamping and scaling other content.
It may be best that new players learn early on that there is a lot of grind involved (every MMO, tbh).Quote:
Originally Posted by thefamilyosc
The plus side of use x skill is that the player has time to observe the effects, tho 1500 is rather extreme in that regard; without the stick to have players use the skill, how many will just use the basic skills they got in the beginner instance because they can kill mob quite easily with only those? We already see people at level cap who don't know important aspects of their class. Not to say that some of those skill usages couldn't be improved or revamped in some way (thinking of some of the burg skills/traits).
it's the knee jerk reaction we always see when any class changes are mentioned. people forget turbine devs actually like the game (and play it!) and don't change stuff just to annoy people...Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorwyn99
Actually it's not. We stated repeatedly to the press (I know, I was there and actually typed it out in explicit detail) that the in game screen we showed them at the time of their preview was place holder and that the turbine point icons on the left hand column were entirely place holder art and would be replaced in the next build. Which we sent them a screenshot for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorgrum
THIS is the correct screen shot that we sent them after the tour. The skills on the left unlock as you progress through the trees. They're not gated by Turbine Points.
The housing update is not part of the expansion. That doesn't mean we aren't still planning on making changes this year (after the expansion launches).Quote:
Originally Posted by redgold9
Precisely. Like it or not, they spent the time/effort to scale past instances to give us more to do at a lower future cost to them. True, the scaled instances have been far too easy, but disagreement on the exact nature of the class revamp/instance difficulty dynamic will only end when we get in and can actually play the bloody things.Quote:
Originally Posted by bohbashum
remove your tin foil hat please and calm down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iozeph
read the posts here. think rationally. look at the picture. remember lotro is already in a ###### state. stop day dreaming.
depends what class tbh. warden is very cookie cutter at times. other classes have completely useless lines and completely useless traits. hunter for example, can live 100% play time in one line maybe changing 1/2 traits for raiding. that, is terrible, terrible depth in choice.Quote:
what we have now doesn't necessarily shove you into slotting certain traits within a set that you don't want
they have got rid of legandaries iinc. there at the bottom of the line now, capstones. I guess other lesser legandaries have just been converted into traits in lines. for example, you see the eagle picture in the blue line. you see the bog learker in the blue line. I suspect others like maybe hunters bards arrow and rain of thorns will be gated to yellow for example.Quote:
As they're at it - why not have rid of legendaries, traits, virtues, and even stats?
class traits are all on the picture I presume. no more
race and virtue traits are apparently having a little work over. but I don't expect much.
stats are a form of reward system. armor rewards bigger stats, biggers stats makes us happy. we're humans, watching numbers go higher seems to make us happy.
A certain number of old players will find the class redesign completely untenable and leave. A certain number of new players will try out the redesigned classes and stay. Will the latter exceed the former? Only the long lens of history will one day reveal that answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minquinn
While I am new to MMOs, my closest friends have played many over the last two decades. They universally agree that class redesigns almost always end badly. From my personal perspective, nothing revealed by Turbine regarding class redesigns indicates they intend to continue supporting my personal play style. In fact, the information thus far revealed indicates they intent to ruthlessly excise my play style from the game. I expect to end up in the "untenable and leave" column, but hold out hope otherwise.
interesting...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapience
Good to know!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapience
Is it me, or are there seven store buttons on the left hand side of the trait tree?
I guess you missed what Sapience said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elderban
Place holder icons. A regrettable choice of icon, but still, just placeholders.
Yes I did...my bad. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Eartholloth
Yeah...won't create an uproar using store icons, now will they...? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by thefamilyosc
Not even remotely. Please tell me what is so interesting about a concept that is used in every other MMO?Quote:
Originally Posted by bohbashum
I'd also like to know who demanded these changes that Turbine keeps saying in their pressers that they were demanded. Also, it would be interesting to know how they think it will accomplish their goals of a variety in trait builds?
The original system could've used a tweak, but it was something that had a nice simple interface, was uniquely LOTRO, and worked.
Of all the things in this game to redo, why must you guys constantly fix the stuff that isn't broken and leave broken the stuff that is?!?!?!?!!??!?!
I like this talent tree! But, blue dark neon colour :S Can you add some lotr style things? Leaves, jewellry, etc :)
Tolkiens inspiration for Rohan came from Gothic and Scandinavian culture.. Gothic castles look kinda similar to HD here, even though i would prefer HD being a bit more grayish in color....Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyrion
So does Sapience play a LOREMASTER ???? He seemed to get that picture up pretty quick, whereas if there was a beta, and auto level to 95 to create a new toon to be able to post that, it might of taken more time.
And here I thought the DEV's played Burg's all the time, somehow, they have gotten the most love.
And I think the picture looked pretty good, I have lots of toons I run different traits on, and it takes to much time to change back and forth on.
Don't dwell on details on the sneak peek pictures, just be glad it shows progress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bohbashum
Which definition of tin foil hat are you attempting to dismiss us with?
Maybe this one:
limit the transmission of voices directly into the brain
I find that a bit insulting. My concerns with the game are based on my past MMO experiences. I'm simply looking at the class trees as I have always seen them. They limit choice. This forces cookie cutter specs. Which is why many players are fearful this will happen again. I took pride in being able to play cross tree toons. If my guardian wants to take 4 blues and 3 reds he can. If I want to take 3 yellows and 3 reds I could. You were only limited to the traits you earned not forced to take a bunch in a single tree.
I'm not panicking and neither are the other posters. We are voicing our concerns before it's too late.
And my fears about tanking are well warranted. I have not been invited to many 3 or 6 man groups lately because the groups usual intention is to farm it with dps and a cappy heal.
The mobs in the last xpac hit like wet noodles. We had a mini tank an Annum boss while I was afk. When players realized this they stopped inviting tanks.
So no I'm not wearing a tin foil hat. I am listening. I'm just voicing my concerns before it is too late.
Thanks for assuming I was stupid though.
Check my avatar. :) I play a hunter. I do have an almost capped LM (I need to stop being lazy about it and get it finished).Quote:
Originally Posted by kurp
That said, the image is actually from the image pack we sent to all the press who were present (wasn't just Massively) on the call and stream. Not sure why they used a placeholder.
The tour given to the press was done with a LM... and that image was done in order to be given to the press... that's why he was so quick to put it.
Every older beta member know that sapience has a hunter who can one shot everything and pops balrog like candy. P
So far, I like it.
I'm particularly intrigued about what you get for spending 3 points in the Posing with Bear trait. :)
When I watch this screen shot, I hope, that skinning informations for this window will be available a launch of Helms Deep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapience
I personally don't like such a colorful user interface. I prefer darker themes with less colors.
Posting a pic of the trait trees for each class, on their respective forums, would be nice.. :D
Too soon? hehe
hunter yellow line was epic :DQuote:
Originally Posted by ColorSpecs
it's totally fair that a warden can do great dps in tanking build :D
remember when people think lore-master is a dps class :D
maybe it does need fixing... did you even read there explination to why there doing this?
you assuming way to much into the negative. sure, nothing wrong with sharing your concerns but there crazy thoughts that by design, they would remove the tanking side of tanks. it's clearly going to be removing the tanking side of a dps roll traited class, because, you know, everyone knows dps classes should tank...Quote:
Originally Posted by Minquinn
I would like to add that to the list of reasons why there class revamping too. so classes are actually played around there designed rolls.
actually. they were hitting too much at it's release. remember the insane crits?Quote:
The mobs in the last xpac hit like wet noodles. We had a mini tank an Annum boss while I was afk. When players realized this they stopped inviting tanks.
however they felt the need to both add a new critical defence AND nurf enemy damage values. one would of been fine turbine... that was U10 too, before that scaled content did have a challnge, but the crits were a little silly. however, the oppisite side we see now is just as silly. they really went to far and it's a shame they havn't done anything about it yet. I hope HD does :(
"Miscelaneoushttp://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Upda..._March_6,_2013
Fixed a bug that was causing monster damage to grow at exponential rates (leading to auto-attacks and standard skills that could potentially wipe groups). "
it sounds like it was needed, but it wasn't like any content out wasn't able to be completed. it went way too far imo. for example, scaled LT in BG's purple eye is hitting under 100... stupid, completely stupid.
so now you know where to point your finger at difficulty. the mechanics on instances are fine, just we take too little compared to what we output. NEEDS a fix.
not stupid. just taking your fears too far. over thinking the negatives instead of what they could actually be doing.Quote:
Thanks for assuming I was stupid though.
So does the mithril coin icon on the left mean it costs mithril coins to unlock new specs or costs mithril coin to respec?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapience
You mean the one on the bottom RIGHT of the image I posted? It means you can purchase additional stored trait configurations. You start with two for free and can purchase more. So you can save multiple "builds".Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirlettia
yes thats the one, trust me to type while watching tv. So respec is free then?
Respec costs silver, but free as far as mithril coins/TP goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirlettia
Why do you think fixing trait line issues requires the removal of the system? Did you even read my questions? Cause you didn't bother to try and answer them.Quote:
Originally Posted by bohbashum
I'm already looking forward to this! I'll need to do a lot of retraining, as each of my character has her ...... preferences. They'll need to learn :) But it will be fun.
But there's one thing I do hope: Have the expansion before November 1st or after November 30th. Cause November is NaNoWriMo and I really, really, really can't use the Expansion Distractions! Cause it will be a big distraction!
Better not yet tell my Cook there's a new tier. She might want to force me into Lotro during NaNoWriMo....... Playing Lotro instead of writing..... Too much temptaion lol
so you admit there are issues now?Quote:
Originally Posted by ColorSpecs
Huh? I asked you once already, i'll ask it again: Why does fixing issues with trait lines require changing the trait system? Or to put it another way, what makes you think that changing the trait system is going to fix a trait line? The hunter yellow line could easily remain just as broken in the new system, or could've been as easily fixed in the old system. There is no correlation, other than your assumption that there is one.Quote:
Originally Posted by bohbashum
"Of course, the main event of the expansion is the Helm's Deep epic battle system (also known as the "big battle" system). Starting at level 10, players can jump into the heroic defense of this iconic landmark, earning medals through a whole new advancement system. It's being called "the big bad brother of skirmishes" in the office, and Turbine expects that's how players will see epic battles. It's such a big system, in fact, that it'll be the new endgame, replacing the typical expansion addition of new skirmishes, instances, or raids. "
So we've already seen the last of the traditional raids? That would be a pretty bold move.
so you admit that it's not WAI yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by ColorSpecs
just need to get that over and done first.
the current trait system also is too open ended. we've been told many times that there new designed is each spec having a set roll and classes unable to do as much all at once. anyway they do the buffet system with a greater focus on the set bonuse (which we're basically in a tree system tbh...) would mean that it's too open ended. so trees was the simplest solution to focus classes into rolls
Only large scale events will be handled with this system. There will continue to be traditional raids and other instances in future...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapience
Overall, I liked what I read. It will give me plenty to do prior to any new raids or instances coming out. I mean... spending time fleshing out how I want to build my current batch of 85s (and level them to 95) will eat up ample time.
However, I would warn against jumping to too many conclusions just yet. We will need to await the beta testing to start learning more in-depth information (as much as they will allow it to be distributed).
You're neglecting that too, because it's rather out of character for the Rohirrim to have siege engines. It's not a straightforward question of prudence or competence, there's also the need to have the requisite technical savvy in military engineering. That's one likely reason why Tolkien didn't mention them at Helm's Deep, and also why he had Sauron's lot using massive trebuchets during the siege of Minas Tirith (going by the description of projectiles being hurled very high, way over the walls into the city behind) without the Gondorians apparently being able to respond in kind.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefamilyosc
It fits the game, though, if only because Turbine have always been cavalier about the war-gear in use - hence all the plate armour, two-handed swords, crossbows and so on, so it's not worth arguing about a catapult or two. So it's understandable on that basis, but lore-wise nope, it's a non-starter even if you try to dodge around it and look at character. (And for that matter Turbine's Edoras is way too big and grand to be in character, either, but then they always make places like that madly huge and showy so no change there).
the trait are broken. traits need updateing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ColorSpecs
traits don't fit design anymore. change traits.
buffet system too open ended. choose well practised system so they can do a good job first time round.
sum it up? again, you probably would of read that if you've been up to date with such discussions...
buffet trait system to tree trait system. there the same part of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by ColorSpecs
if your car seat is breaking, you could refurbish it or replace it. was the seat that good in the first place? is it worth it to have the old chair back?
it's easier to start a fresh. remember, it's not just the trait system thats being updated. what ever mechanical changes to the classes are being done also would need to be balanced onto the traits. from what we've been told we get "spec bonuses" apon choosing a line, like how you choose a light medium or heavy horse. how could have those on the buffet system? would it make sense? is that really the simplist solution?
your insulting tone doesn't help your cause too.
The housing will be never uppdated u just cant admiit it, so u and the rest of dev team only promising it will be "revamped in the future" each year the same story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapience
Any new graphical update coming with HD? New textures, lighting effects, animations or something:)
Oh and older zones revamp with revamped maps?
Wow, that virtue tree looks god awful.. Well, this will be the first time in six years this game is not on my PC. Welcome to Lord of the Uninstalled Online. Refuse to keep playing in the direction this has gone & is still going. If I wanted to play World of Warcraft, I would subscribe to Blizzard.Quote:
Originally Posted by AaylaKheledlire
What a joke.
Were you intending to play with the traiting window permanently open?Quote:
Originally Posted by Linnier
I'm pumped for the next expac. Class revamps, hundreds of new quests, Helm's Deep, 5 giant end-game battle instances designed by jwberry and team, what is not to love?
Housing updates coming some point after release sound good too.
Took away the only thing the game had left, customization. Now everyone will use the exact same specializations. Straw that broke the camels back for me. See no purpose in even trying to argue a valid point with anyone, moving on & wish the game the best but it's heading for the worst.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirnir
Traits are broken and need updating is a separate issue. They could easily have the same traits in the new system, in fact I'll bet your login info that they do. That the old traits wouldn't fit the new system and then adding the old traits to the new system is contradictory and makes no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by bohbashum
Another assumption. Turbine's history states that the first time around is nothing more than a live beta for any new mechanics/systems.Quote:
buffet system too open ended. choose well practised system so they can do a good job first time round.
I'd have been up to date on your assumptions and Turbine's facile reasoning for the change? I am.Quote:
sum it up? again, you probably would of read that if you've been up to date with such discussions...
Your analogy is wrong.Quote:
buffet trait system to tree trait system. there the same part of the game.
if your car seat is breaking, you could refurbish it or replace it. was the seat that good in the first place? is it worth it to have the old chair back?
Another baseless assumption.Quote:
it's easier to start a fresh.
Who knows, but again this is all conjecture.Quote:
remember, it's not just the trait system thats being updated. what ever mechanical changes to the classes are being done also would need to be balanced onto the traits. from what we've been told we get "spec bonuses" apon choosing a line, like how you choose a light medium or heavy horse. how could have those on the buffet system? would it make sense? is that really the simplist solution?
I don't have a cause and you're insulting. Just because you are coming down on Turbine's side doesn't give you a mandate to be a dick. I asked given the weaknesses in the current system as stated by turbine, how would a new system fix those issues?Quote:
your insulting tone doesn't help your cause too.
No one has yet to answer that question.
Oh - I just thought it weird you would be so offended by the visuals you would leave the game, but that's how it read to me. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Linnier
If it breaks the game, we all leave, lotro dies, no argument. However, a couple tweet length posts and a screen shot don't tell us anything of substance. We know we're getting trees, that's about it. How functional they'll be, how much room for customization, etc. is an unknown. You have concerns, I have concerns, we all have concerns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Linnier
I'm not suggesting you pre-order, not suggesting you buy the expac, but I have absolutely no problem saying you're a bit of an idiot if the announcement "there will be changes" is what chases you away. Be concerned, be READY to leave, fine, but on HD launch you're an idiot if you don't update your client, get in game, and actually check out what they've designed. Won't cost you anything but about 1hr patching time. Do that and you'll have full authority to run screaming for the hills if you so choose. But to leave now? Asinine.
Why does Helms Deep look completely different than what it did in the concept art? Besides the obvious animation part, the two look like they are completely unrelated. I like the way it looked in the concept art, these screenshots of Helms Deep just look too colorful. Perhaps it will look better at night. However, the rest of the screenshots of Rohan look pretty good, they look just like Rohan should. And the Dark Door=Epic.
As for the trait trees, it looks completely like I thought it would: Unoriginal. I just flat out hate what they are planing to do with the classes, it makes absolutely no sense.
Turbine still has time left before this turns into a complete disaster, and turn the classes into something that pretty much ever other MMO has done. This was one of the few things that made LOTRO stand out.
My assumption is that you cannot get the best traits for each line in a single build anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by ColorSpecs
Which forces you more into a specialized role which is what Turbine wants.
Possibly they could have done that with the existing system by maybe penalizing certain combinations of traits from different trait lines.
Also another point is toon development after levels 60-65. All we have from then on is a few - mostly just improved - skills, mounted combat and the LI/gear grind. Trees are arguably easier to span over more levels and extend later on.
The current weaknesses are surely different from class to class. The usability of a warden as a tank below 50 is really not high e.g.
I am quite wary about these changes. Changes like this are rather huge changes and can surely drive people away from the game as their beloved toons change their behavior probably quite drastically. On the other hand it is a chance to learn some stuff again which keeps things fresh. As long as they do not totally overhaul the classes and several viable roles for each will still be there (but not at the same time) I can see that it will work out.
However I can envision that it will fail - for me that is - as well.
Sounds ominous indeed. No more new raids, instances, or skirmishes would be a killer. I think I'm going to enjoy looking around the new area, doing the quests, maybe try the big battle, and then be bored for another year. Hopefully not too much versatility and skills will be lost with this new tree system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gondalen_Drake
not an assumtion... they've told us thats what they believe... and tbh, I agree and I have done since MoM when they introduced set bonuses. should of just left it full buffet, but going backwards would be worse now.Quote:
Originally Posted by ColorSpecs
anyway, heres a quote for you.
maybe send a message to sapience. a "why did you do the class revamps the way they did". you might get a leanthy consolidation of what we've seen in snippets around. also, why tree trait system. but imo, and yes that is fully assumtions. it's because it's a tried and tested method than has worked on mmo's. lotro can look and learn from failed tree traits and get an idea of what makes a good one.Quote:
"The team had grown unhappy with two major observations regarding class development: that the early game was too unfocused and lacked choices when it came to class builds, and that the late game ended up featuring classes that were all good at more or less the same things. Hence the desire to give meaningful choices early on with an emphasis on creating memorable and focused builds. "
like I mentioned before though. the basis of the buffet system was to be able to choose any trait you wished. balanceing 20+ traits has obviously been too much for them, the professionals, and I think making focused rolls under the buffet system will look absolutely horrible. that was there design with set bonuses ages ago, and that failed. since, they've been adding plasters but not fixing it.
and from there your lack believing me and assumtions on both sides, I'll just keep on repeating myself. I also can't quote the twitter chat as it's been took off now. but you really should of read up if your going to be passionate about it so late in it's development.
That's just for Update 12. We could always get 'traditional' instances/raids in a later post expansion update down the road.Quote:
Originally Posted by Celebrawn
And your assumption (and turbine's) is that it's going to work that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by monk_tbd
Exactly. So instead of a fully customizable system whose weakness were the traits themselves, we lose the customization with no indication that the weaknesses of the traits will be resolved. This lose of the potential for customization reduces our individual ability to have unique builds which will...Quote:
Possibly they could have done that with the existing system by maybe penalizing certain combinations of traits from different trait lines.
wait for it..
Lead to cookie cutter builds. Which is one of the guiding principles Turbine is espousing in making this change in the first place.
Another counter intuitive point. We level so quickly that we barely notice these levels going by, so why are they so concerned with it?Quote:
Also another point is toon development after levels 60-65.
But for the fact that there will no longer be any type of content that would warrant additional skills or traits, you'd be correct.Quote:
All we have from then on is a few - mostly just improved - skills, mounted combat and the LI/gear grind. Trees are arguably easier to span over more levels and extend later on. The current weaknesses are surely different from class to class. The usability of a warden as a tank below 50 is really not high e.g.
Another assumption.Quote:
Originally Posted by bohbashum
not even reading my posts now? nice :(Quote:
Originally Posted by ColorSpecs
guess you can't please everyone
It did, sort of, after a fashion, for some classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by angrolas
Almost
I won't claim to be an expert in all classes, my LM has been sitting in an Angmar orc camp for the last 8 months waiting for me to get back to page grinding, and I never really bothered with my captain once I reached cap. But for some classes at least, esp in their 'normal' raid roles, I can truly tell you there wasn't much variety to be found among the best players. We don't have WoW theory crafters or whatever godawful, self-important name they gave themselves, but we have very easily identifiable 'best' builds. Look at a dozen of the best dps burgs in raid setup, guarantee that, excepting the occasional mechanical wrinkle on specific bosses, they're all traited exactly the same. All dual-wielding champs, the same. All 2h champs, the same. Lord, nothing is easier than spotting a bad hunter when they show up to raid, because, again, there really is only one way to trait/set up LIs. Healing mini, again, pretty much exactly the same.
My guard is my beloved main, I tank every chance I get. I even quest tank geared and tank traited, because why the heck not? In the past year I've made 3 adjustments to my traiting when circumstances have required it: 1) I got rid of defensive expertise when I realized I'd overcapped block by 2k, 2) I trait CtD for dps races 3) I traited full survival for BfE t2/c since threat didn't matter. Otherwise, we all trait the same.
Anytime any class needs to fulfill a different role, as dictated by the mechanics of a fight or the available players on a given night, we head to the bard. Now, I'm not saying this is going to be all sunshine and roses, because I honestly do feel for the LMs and captains atm, but for most of the classes, to the extent we actually have choices now, we'll likely continue to have choices with HD. We'll just have to find a new cookie cutter to replace the old.
You've been editing out the questions from my posts that you can't answer since we started and now you're complaining because I've decided to only address a specific point this time? Hypocrite much?Quote:
Originally Posted by bohbashum
I edit it out so the forums arn't filled with useless quotes. I've tried answering them to them best of my ability, but you instantly cast out assumptions (which they are, well done, most of the forums is...). if you don't want the community to talk to you, wait for developer diaries, I'm not a developer and can't speak exactly how they work. just my experience of a training games dev+designer and my experience on the game I can tell you what it is and what it could be.Quote:
Originally Posted by ColorSpecs
please go read that last post. it does have a quote that might answer a little.
Maybe I'm in a minority, but I for one am all for specialization. I have 4 very different classes at current cap (hunter, LM, Guardian, Cappy) and the more different they are the more I enjoy them. It seems weird to me that classes can become so customizable/flexible that a Champion (say) can tank just about as good as a Guardian, especially while still retaining some pretty uber DPS and pretty potent self-heals/bubbles.
I like a system with strong trade-offs, and with the limited info I have now it seems like these trees might force that a bit more than the current system. For instance my LM currently gets some heavy CC penalties for traiting deep into the red line. I like that, but I don’t think there’s enough of that kind of thing in the current system: he can also easily heal 3-man runs on T2 Challenge mode using only 2 blue traits, meaning I don’t have to drop a single red or sacrifice DPS to maximize my healing.
I’m all for a system that will allow me to spec a healing build and a DPS build, and then force me to choose between them. I'd rather have to roll 3 or 4 characters to get a different experience than be able to customize one character into 3 different roles
No more raids, instances getting added to the game would prolly finally make me finally uninstall Lotro not that I have played in the past few months.Quote:
Originally Posted by Celebrawn
Not sure i understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by ColorSpecs
There are arguably two or three traits per line that one would call "best" for a class which you maybe cannot get anymore in a single build.
If they would have changed the current system so that choosing two "best" traits from different lines would cause penalties so big that you would do yourself a disservice to do it then you likely would not.
While you wold still have the choice it would basically also move you into the direction of a cookie cutter build.
I am aware it leads to cookie cutter builds. At least if you spec into a certain role.Quote:
Exactly. So instead of a fully customizable system whose weakness were the traits themselves, we lose the customization with no indication that the weaknesses of the traits will be resolved. This lose of the potential for customization reduces our individual ability to have unique builds which will...
wait for it..
Lead to cookie cutter builds. Which is one of the guiding principles Turbine is espousing in making this change in the first place.
A lot of minis heal currently with 4y/3b. Some use 4b/3y. Some like the blue traits.
I like my 4y/3b. I expect this not to work as good anymore with the revamp i.e. I likely will not be able to get anthem duration and cd to the same levels without giving up more healing (which I already did anyway by not having 4 blues).
Something like this will happen to all classes.
It would probably be ok if the buffing of the mini's yellow line will be better and have minis be the main buffer if a cappy is not available.
You need to see that the revamp is not done for long term players but also for players coming new to the game.Quote:
Another counter intuitive point. We level so quickly that we barely notice these levels going by, so why are they so concerned with it?
The first time through it takes awhile (unless your goal is to reach endgame ASAP which would be a waste for a game like this in my opinion - and not necessarily because of the state of the endgame)
So what is your point then?Quote:
But for the fact that there will no longer be any type of content that would warrant additional skills or traits, you'd be correct.
Toon development past 60 should be just LI and gear grind?
The trees will give Turbine a chance to have several tiers of improved skills as we have them now, the basic version doing even less than what the current basic version does.
This is a way of toon development even if it looks like a regression from what we are currently used to.
In any case a lot of changes will come.
I am very unsure I will like them. If it is anything like MC then no thank you.
However I think the main problem with MC is the actual combat and not necessarily the skills and trait trees connected to it.
big battles are group content that will be relased on expansion day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Faitha81
we've been told there are 5 that scale up to raids. they are not like skirmishes too, a raid version will be nothing like a 3man version.
here's the 20Q on the subject
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...93-Big-Battles
if you want group content. you'll be doing Big battles, the scaled instances again, the scaled skirmishes again, and probably new warbands.
so for the first time in a while. we're getting an instance cluster on launch day. if thats not enough, thats kinda being a little too picky :/