Housing update postponed? What's happened with it?

So I'm reading the article that Massively has posted with a preview and more info about Helm's Deep, which you can read at http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/09...ne-helms-deep/
and I noticed the following statement:

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It will not contain traditional instances or skirmishes (more on that later), the much-anticipated housing update, or more mounted skills.

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So now I'm wondering- is the housing updated postponed? Part of a different update that will come later (or sooner?) Or is something else happening? Hoping it's not canceled, but really wondering as it was something that I, and I'm sure many others, was looking forward to.

From what I read (I think one of Sapience's posts from today) the housing update is scheduled for after the expansion, and not tied to the expansion.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I do not believe it was ever stated that the Housing revamp would come *with* Helm's Deep, just that we would be getting it sometime this year. Far as I know that is still the plan.

Sapience confirms that we're still getting it here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?&postid=6899081 #post6899081

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Originally Posted by Sapience

The housing update is not part of the expansion. That doesn't mean we aren't still planning on making changes this year (after the expansion launches).

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If ever I had a digital sad... this is it.

Someone on the Massively article posted a comment that the 'housing update' was, after years and years, almost as 'mythical' as the lore. It's starting to feel that way, to be sure.

I don't give one whit about 'Big Battles'. Rohan had/has so much lag on a warsteed that it's almost unplayable at times. Not looking forward to anything 'bigger', thank ye. But I WAS looking forward to some reskins/redesigns, and hopefully, more housing hooks.

Oh well. Maybe NEXT year...

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

Oh well. Maybe NEXT year...

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why do you think we would have to wait that long? who's to say they can't push this out with the next update (NOT HD) but the next update/patch?

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

I don't give one whit about 'Big Battles'. Rohan had/has so much lag on a warsteed that it's almost unplayable at times. Not looking forward to anything 'bigger', thank ye. But I WAS looking forward to some reskins/redesigns, and hopefully, more housing hooks.

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Agree 100%. The housing update is the only thing I'm looking forward to out of any of the proposed changes that have been discussed. Of course, 'this year' means up until December 31, but that's a long time to wait for things for which we've been asking for years (and we haven't even been told what the changes will be when we're at the most 4 months out).

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

If ever I had a digital sad... this is it.

Someone on the Massively article posted a comment that the 'housing update' was, after years and years, almost as 'mythical' as the lore. It's starting to feel that way, to be sure.

I don't give one whit about 'Big Battles'. Rohan had/has so much lag on a warsteed that it's almost unplayable at times. Not looking forward to anything 'bigger', thank ye. But I WAS looking forward to some reskins/redesigns, and hopefully, more housing hooks.

Oh well. Maybe NEXT year...

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I want the housing update too :(

I wonder though why you get so much warsteed lag? I don't get much at all. In fact I now have the wildermore pocket item on 6 lvl 85 characters. I ran warband raids for two months straight on all my toons everyday. I never got this unplayable lag, and judging by the groups of familiar faces that joined my raids I don't think they were getting it either.

I am no computer guru so I guess maybe turbine could have some issue that only effects you and people like you, but using common sense I can only assume your lag is stemming from your system and/or connection.

I'm really disappointed about the no new housing in Helm's Deep as well.

I was REALLY hoping to get all the housing #### that bound to me out of my shared storage and placed into my house or at least some new-fangled housing storage.

(And no, I don't want to delete it...)

I have been waiting YEARS for a housing update... It's probably my most wanted update!

Very disappointing it seems to keep getting pushed back. :( I SO hope it finally becomes a reality. And hopefully in the near future!

This isn't new - in fact, I don't think they ever said the housing update would come with the expansion. Here's what Sapience said back in early June:

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Originally Posted by Sapience

You're also correct that housing changes aren't specifically targetted at the expansion (that's why they don't appear on the announcement's list of features), but are targetted to this year. So you may see some elements go live before others (like the escrow changes we made recently).

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Khafar

i am more worried about the not containing traditional instances... might be a reason for me to quit the game... but well it looks like they at leist will still release the housing update which is needed.

At this point in time, I'm more interested in what kind of housing update we're actually going to get than when we're going to get it.

Also, I'm willing to wait if that's what it takes to get more and freely movable hooks. But the longer I hear no news, the bigger the 'if' grows.

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Originally Posted by Rainothon

At this point in time, I'm more interested in what kind of housing update we're actually going to get than when we're going to get it.

Also, I'm willing to wait if that's what it takes to get more and freely movable hooks. But the longer I hear no news, the bigger the 'if' grows.

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Sapience has said that it's not going to be a complete rehaul, but more along the lines of expanding upon what's there. My hopes for free placements are very low.

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Originally Posted by Cadd_EU

Sapience has said that it's not going to be a complete rehaul, but more along the lines of expanding upon what's there. My hopes for free placements are very low.

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My big thing was changes to the hooks. Not so sure about anything being done with that now. So if we get this so called housing revamp this year or next it's not gonna matter too much to me. More then likely the changes they do make which now I suspect are going to be small won't interest me. I think people need to prepare themselves cause I foresee many unhappy people when this goes live.

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Originally Posted by sirwillow

So I'm reading the article that Massively has posted with a preview and more info about Helm's Deep, which you can read at http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/09...ne-helms-deep/
and I noticed the following statement:



So now I'm wondering- is the housing updated postponed? Part of a different update that will come later (or sooner?) Or is something else happening? Hoping it's not canceled, but really wondering as it was something that I, and I'm sure many others, was looking forward to.

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A lot of what we said seems to have been omitted. The housing update has always been planned for this year. It is not part of Helm's Deep. If you recall, it wasn't listed in the press release announcing the expansion. What we said in the interview is that Housing is slated for this year, but not in the expansion pack. Look for changes in an update after the expansion releases.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

A lot of what we said seems to have been omitted. The housing update has always been planned for this year. It is not part of Helm's Deep. If you recall, it wasn't listed in the press release announcing the expansion. What we said in the interview is that Housing is slated for this year, but not in the expansion pack. Look for changes in an update after the expansion releases.

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Fantabuloso. :)

Can ye go into some detail about what some of these upcoming houses changes may be? Maybe a few meat scraps with that bone? :)

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Originally Posted by Sapience

A lot of what we said seems to have been omitted. The housing update has always been planned for this year. It is not part of Helm's Deep. If you recall, it wasn't listed in the press release announcing the expansion. What we said in the interview is that Housing is slated for this year, but not in the expansion pack. Look for changes in an update after the expansion releases.

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I look forward to it. I think it will be super. I also know it takes a lot of thought and development so it's good to see it not rushed out there. Personally I hope they put a lot of stuff in the store along with the update so we can buy things and fully utilize all the space. Looking forward to it when it releases very much so.

I'm afraid that if there aren't more customization options and a LOT more hooks to hang the many dozens of housing items some people have, the housing update will be viewed as a failure by most, considering we've all waited an incredibly long time. Players should be able to buy kinship-sized houses at the very least. Heck, tie it to a TP purchase if you must, I'm sure people that actually care about the housing system would be more than willing to pay to increase their options.

I will say what I have said before. Keep in mind we've been saying update, not overhaul and not 'new system'. If you're expecting a radically different, or entirely new system you're going to be disappointed. If you're thinking improvements and updates, you're probably going to be a lot more realistic in your thinking and a lot closer to the reality.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

I will say what I have said before. Keep in mind we've been saying update, not overhaul and not 'new system'. If you're expecting a radically different, or entirely new system you're going to be disappointed. If you're thinking improvements and updates, you're probably going to be a lot more realistic in your thinking and a lot closer to the reality.

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All I've heard in regards to the housing update is crafting facilities being added to houses or kinhouses. I'd consider that an overhaul, or was that a rumor?

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Originally Posted by Sapience

I will say what I have said before. Keep in mind we've been saying update, not overhaul and not 'new system'. If you're expecting a radically different, or entirely new system you're going to be disappointed. If you're thinking improvements and updates, you're probably going to be a lot more realistic in your thinking and a lot closer to the reality.

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Maybe they'll add a tree and a bird to each neighborhood and call it the 'Moors housing update.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

I will say what I have said before. Keep in mind we've been saying update, not overhaul and not 'new system'. If you're expecting a radically different, or entirely new system you're going to be disappointed. If you're thinking improvements and updates, you're probably going to be a lot more realistic in your thinking and a lot closer to the reality.

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Can you at least tell us if there is going to be anything done to the hook system? You don't have to go into specifics just a yes or no would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

we've been saying update, not overhaul

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Kate said "a major revision to the Housing system". To a lot of us, that sounds a lot like an overhaul.
Source : https://www.lotro.com/en/game/articl...ings-online™


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overhaul:
1. a : to examine thoroughly
b (1) : repair (2) : to renovate, remake, revise, or renew thoroughly

Woe to us if all that was meant is a thorough examination.
Let us not return to the Age of Steefelisms.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

I will say what I have said before. Keep in mind we've been saying update, not overhaul and not 'new system'. If you're expecting a radically different, or entirely new system you're going to be disappointed. If you're thinking improvements and updates, you're probably going to be a lot more realistic in your thinking and a lot closer to the reality.

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I think of this when I see post after post in the housing forum going on about stables, gardens, extra rooms, etc.

So Turbine, get out your magic wand. :D

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Originally Posted by Moochi

Kate said "a major revision to the Housing system". To a lot of us, that sounds a lot like an overhaul.

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Obviously, "overhaul" is wishful thinking, and the dictionary definition of "revision" is probably more appropriate. Whether it's "major" or not will probably be a matter of opinion, but Sapience is toning down expectations so I doubt the housing enthusiasts will consider it major.

My guess: crafting in your home, some more flexibility in the hook system to allow additional customization, perhaps some more hooks, and an extra storage chest you can purchase for TP. Oh, and a dozen new threads in the forums asking for an "overhaul" or a "rewrite" within 2 weeks of getting the revisions.

Khafar

Put simply, Infinite Crisis is what happened to it... LOTRO is no more Turbines benchmark product... Get ready to receive less and less. You will get the housing update later this year probably but dont expect anything flashy... I have been here far 3 years and you can feel the content additions becoming scarcer... Its only natural. Basic economics.. Product life cycle and all that...

Be happy with whatever you get....

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Originally Posted by Khafar

Obviously, "overhaul" is wishful thinking, and the dictionary definition of "revision" is probably more appropriate. Whether it's "major" or not will probably be a matter of opinion, but Sapience is toning down expectations so I doubt the housing enthusiasts will consider it major.

My guess: crafting in your home, some more flexibility in the hook system to allow additional customization, perhaps some more hooks, and an extra storage chest you can purchase for TP. Oh, and a dozen new threads in the forums asking for an "overhaul" or a "rewrite" within 2 weeks of getting the revisions.

Khafar

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As long as we get something with the hook system I will be happy. Although I would like free placement & why I say that is because most of the placed hooks in the yards is just stupid how there placed. If we got extra housing chest/s that be nice too. That's pretty much all I would like.

Incredibly disappointing now that I see Sapience is downplaying it :-/ That bodes not well for whatever it is we end up getting.

Most of my friends have stopped playing because of the messed up loot system, messed up instances difficulty wise (read: too easy), poor "raids", etc. This is just another thing to add to their "won't be coming back" list.

Turbine, why you gotta be this way :(

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Originally Posted by Eartholloth

I would like free placement...

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Many would, of course. Including me. But back when they did housing, they said free placement was just too much work to fit into their schedule, and that was back when they still had "all hands on deck" working on the game shortly after it launched. They'd done a hook system with Asheron's Call, and its constraints meant less development effort, less testing, fewer defects.

I'll be shocked if "revisions" means "free placement". Improvements to the hook system seem far more likely.

Of course, I'd also love to see some for-purchase improvements to housing, and making them self-funding seems like a good way to justify doing them. Examples:

• Add a basement to your home with 8 more hooks and an additional storage chest for 1495 TP.
• Add a stable to your yard with stalls to show off any 5 of your mounts for 995 TP.
• Add a "stable master" to go with the stable which allows you to set 3 Swift Travel locations (changed up to once a week)... 795 TP.
• Hire a handyman (no need for any further maintenance, ever)... 1495 TP.
• House pet (can be named, greets you when you enter, trainable)... 995 TP each.

Yes, that's over $50 worth of TP for everything, but I'd certainly spend it, and I'll bet I'd have plenty of company. I've had my house since the day they arrived in 2007, and would love to make some great improvements to it.

Khafar

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Originally Posted by Eartholloth

Although I would like free placement.

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Was never on the table. I think we mentioned that somewhere already. Extra storage might make you a bit happier.

I'd probably be happy with more storage (at least 2 more chests), plus more hooks. I realize the ability to place hooks anywhere is probably either something the game engine can't handle, or it would require way too much dev time and money to do it.

No offense intended towards Mrs. Paiz, but you have to take everything she says with a grain of salt. She also said we'd be getting a new PvMP zone which never panned out(1), "increased content" which never came to fruition(2), "smaller, frequent content updates between the major rollouts"(3) - again, we've had, what, two this year not including the expansion? Which was the same as last year and the year before, and the year before (and no, I don't count patches or bug fixes as content updates).

Sources:

1. "Expanded Monster Play – LOTRO’s monster play system will get a major revamp including opening up the feature to all players, changes to monster player skills and advancement and a brand new region for players to battle for or against the forces of evil." (Note: Official announcement/link has since been removed from the LOTRO site)
2. "In 2012, you can expect more content than you've seen at any time since our launch in 2007. We'll be unveiling details with you after the New Year..." - http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/12...ntent-in-2012/ ... (Note: Official announcement/link has since been removed from the LOTRO site)
3. http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/01...maps-out-2012/ ... (Note: Official announcement/link has since been removed from the LOTRO site)

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Was never on the table. I think we mentioned that somewhere already. Extra storage might make you a bit happier.

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Then can you at least think about redoing the placement of hooks on the yards??? Allot of them are just annoying how there placed. For example you got some houses that have nice big yards & everything is pushed up towards the house & bunched close together. What really burns my butt is large hooks getting placed right in front of small hooks. Might sound silly but it really annoys me. I see it allot with the houses.

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Originally Posted by Eartholloth

Then can you at least think about redoing the placement of hooks on the yards??? Allot of them are just annoying how there placed. For example you got some houses that have nice big yards & everything is pushed up towards the house & bunched close together. What really burns my butt is large hooks getting placed right in front of small hooks. Might sound silly but it really annoys me. I see it allot with the houses.

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Any chance for some upgrades to 'Housing Permissions management'? I'd like to be able to remotely manage permissions and pay upkeep for any house I have manage permissions on.

There is no serious need for free placement if there will be at least a LOT of new hooks added and also stuff like Rohan (Hytbold) furniture hooks fixed. I hope in it.

What I would like most is to be able to place anything on any hook. No more distinctions of large wall, small wall, furniture blah blah. Then I could put what I want in my house where I want it. The system is just too rigid. I can dream :)

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Originally Posted by Elderban

No offense intended towards Mrs. Paiz, but you have to take everything she says with a grain of salt.

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In hindsight, it seems likely that her letter back in 2011 was assuming financial conditions which didn't persist... F2P had happened a year earlier, and they were undoubtedly seeing more revenue. A year after that letter, they went through layoffs, so it's hardly a surprise that they cut back on plans. When we had layoffs where I work, it resulted in feature cuts, feature postponements (for a year or more), and project cancellations.

The lesson learned is probably this: don't talk futures. Ever. Talk about what you're nearly finished doing, and deliver exactly what you say - when you say you will. I suspect that's why we're hearing so little about Helm's Deep until just 6 or 8 weeks before it's likely to ship.

Khafar

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Originally Posted by Sapience

I will say what I have said before. Keep in mind we've been saying update, not overhaul and not 'new system'. If you're expecting a radically different, or entirely new system you're going to be disappointed. If you're thinking improvements and updates, you're probably going to be a lot more realistic in your thinking and a lot closer to the reality.

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Actually Sapience, I can understand why everyone is thinking Overhaul and new system. Since It was a Producers letter announcing it, Kate Paiz.

https://www.lotro.com/en/game/articl...nline%E2%84%A2

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Hello all!

January has been an exciting month for us on the dev team! We’ve wrapped up our plans for 2013, and I’m very pleased to announce some new big initiatives for LOTRO you can expect in the coming year:

Player’s Council – We are doubling down this year on the conversation between Turbine and you, our players. We are going to start a Player’s Council, a group of players who participate in more regular & structured feedback sessions with the dev group. We want to make sure that as we grow and extend this game, that we are incorporating your likes and dislikes about what we are into what we release. The Community Team will be releasing more information about how we’re going to construct and run the Player’s Council in the coming weeks.



Western Rohan – I am at this moment standing on the parapet of the Hornburg, looking out over Helm’s Deep as devs populate the landscape with hundreds (soon to be thousands) of Saruman’s Uruk-hai & Orcs. We will be bringing you the rest of Rohan in two installments – Wildermore, a northern region between the Wold and Fangorn, will be released this spring, after our 6th anniversary, and later in the year, you’ll be able to see Western Rohan, Edoras, and participate in battles of epic proportions. Much more on this to come…



Housing – I am extremely pleased to say that this year we will be tackling a major revision to the Housing system. In February and March we will be gathering information about how Housing should change, and then we’ll be releasing revisions to the system in the latter half of the year. We look forward to leveraging our new Player’s Council to help shape and guide the extension of this feature!



Class Adjustments – Later in the year, we will be making some significant changes to the skills and traits of the Free Peoples classes. We’ll be pruning out skills that just feel disappointing in play and increasing the potency of others. The end result will be fewer skills, but a more profound impact on moment-to-moment play. How you choose to specialize your class will make a real difference!



There are plenty of other things happening this year, and we’ll be doing more dev chats via Twitter to keep getting the word out, so stay tuned for more details and more news in the coming weeks.

Na lû e-govaned vîn.

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[i] Housing – I am extremely pleased to say that this year we will be tackling [b]a major revision to the Housing system[b]. In February and March we will be gathering information about how Housing should change, and then we’ll be releasing revisions to the system in the latter half of the year. We look forward to leveraging our new Player’s Council to help shape and guide the extension of this feature![i]

Sorry Sapience, But i am only pointing out as others have already done so that a producers letter does not say update or overhaul. Its, "a major revision to the Housing system".. with that i can understand why folks would consider a Major revision could be considered as a overhaul, etc...

think the producers letter was posted back in January. Since it has been 8, 9 months since this letter was posted, it is possible turbine, etc. may have changed their minds, but i have not been able to locate any official posts that changes the producer's initial announcement from jan.

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Originally Posted by Gagmuk

Actually Sapience, I can understand why everyone is thinking Overhaul and new system. Since It was a Producers letter announcing it, Kate Paiz.

https://www.lotro.com/en/game/articl...nline%E2%84%A2



[i] Housing – I am extremely pleased to say that this year we will be tackling [b]a major revision to the Housing system[b]. In February and March we will be gathering information about how Housing should change, and then we’ll be releasing revisions to the system in the latter half of the year. We look forward to leveraging our new Player’s Council to help shape and guide the extension of this feature![i]

Sorry Sapience, But your producer in letter does not say update or overhaul. Its, "a major revision to the Housing system".. I do believe that a Major revision could be considered as something more than just a update.

think the producers letter was posted back in January. Since it has been 8, 9 months since this letter was posted, it is possible turbine, etc. may have changed their minds, but i have not been able to locate any official posts that changes the producer's initial announcement from jan.

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Personally I read "revision" as an update. They tend to use "revamp" when referring to a complete overhaul.

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Originally Posted by Gagmuk

Actually Sapience, I can understand why everyone is thinking Overhaul and new system. Since It was a Producers letter announcing it, Kate Paiz.

https://www.lotro.com/en/game/articl...nline%E2%84%A2



[i] Housing – I am extremely pleased to say that this year we will be tackling [b]a major revision to the Housing system[b]. In February and March we will be gathering information about how Housing should change, and then we’ll be releasing revisions to the system in the latter half of the year. We look forward to leveraging our new Player’s Council to help shape and guide the extension of this feature![i]

Sorry Sapience, But your producer in letter does not say update or overhaul. Its, "a major revision to the Housing system".. I do believe that a Major revision could be considered as something more than just a update.

think the producers letter was posted back in January. Since it has been 8, 9 months since this letter was posted, it is possible turbine, etc. may have changed their minds, but i have not been able to locate any official posts that changes the producer's initial announcement from jan.

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I'm glad you posted this. As you can see the word is revision. A long way from what some were clearly thinking. A revision is an alteration. Not a wholesale ground up replacement.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

I'm glad you posted this. As you can see the word is revision. A long way from what some were clearly thinking. A revision is an alteration. Not a wholesale ground up replacement.

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I agree, i also changed my initial post due it coming across to myself as a bit harsh, which is what i did not intend. but yeah, as Tindragon said a few posts up. Revision to me is the same as an update. but since the letter does say major, it could be construed as being the same as a "major update". my recommendation tho is to wait until its released and see then.

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Originally Posted by Gagmuk

I agree, i also changed my initial post due it coming across to myself as a bit harsh, which is what i did not intend. but yeah, as Tindragon said a few posts up. Revision to me is the same as an update. but since the letter does say major, it could be construed as being the same as a "major update". my recommendation tho is to wait until its released and see then.

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I'd say something like adding new chests or types of decorations would be minor, things like adding hooks or chests (things we have but are at a certain quantity) would be a major one, and something like hookless decorations would be a straight up revamp. I'm expecting something like extra hooks or modified hooks in some manner, but not expecting them to completely remove hooks and allow you to put anything anywhere. We'll have to see though.

I have seen quite a few people mention crafting stations at the houses. Not sure which of those three categories that'd fall in. Suppose it'll depend on whether the craft stations use hooks or not.

Things that absolutely NEED to happen with housing:

1) Give us a REASON to go to our house or neighborhood. Heck give us a reason to go to our friends houses!
2) Provide storage for bound to character or account housing items. (Or just UNBIND them!)
3) Provide a LOT more storage inside of our house. Housing items on their own take up a lot of space let alone cosmetic items. Give us storage space.
4) Get rid of the 'size' system with hooks. If we want to put an enormous item in a small slot so be it. Who cares if it blocks the doorway or something. Maybe we want to create a crazy house. Hey, it'll have character.
5) Provide more hooks so we can do a finer placement of things.
6) Fix the completely broken housing items from the Riders of Rohan expansion (That I and others reported as bugs in ROR BETA!!!) and even the Dragon Painting from your latest event the Bounders' Bounty! How these things got past any sort of QA is unknown.

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Originally Posted by ChromiteSwiftpaw

Things that absolutely NEED to happen with housing:

6) Fix the completely broken housing items from the Riders of Rohan expansion (That I and others reported as bugs in ROR BETA!!!) and even the Dragon Painting from your latest event the Bounders' Bounty! How these things got past any sort of QA is unknown.

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I have only seen shots of the dragon's painting from Bullroarer. Is it broken in Live?

I'd like to see the Rise of Isengard housing items fixed as well.

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Originally Posted by ChromiteSwiftpaw

Things that absolutely NEED to happen with housing:

1) Give us a REASON to go to our house or neighborhood. Heck give us a reason to go to our friends houses!
2) Provide storage for bound to character or account housing items. (Or just UNBIND them!)
3) Provide a LOT more storage inside of our house. Housing items on their own take up a lot of space let alone cosmetic items. Give us storage space.
4) Get rid of the 'size' system with hooks. If we want to put an enormous item in a small slot so be it. Who cares if it blocks the doorway or something. Maybe we want to create a crazy house. Hey, it'll have character.
5) Provide more hooks so we can do a finer placement of things.
6) Fix the completely broken housing items from the Riders of Rohan expansion (That I and others reported as bugs in ROR BETA!!!) and even the Dragon Painting from your latest event the Bounders' Bounty! How these things got past any sort of QA is unknown.

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2 Isn't gonna happen. It completely negates the point of shared storage in the LotRO store.

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Originally Posted by Crell_1

I have only seen shots of the dragon's painting from Bullroarer. Is it broken in Live?

I'd like to see the Rise of Isengard housing items fixed as well.

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Yes it is. That painting is now half in the wall & half sticks out! LOL

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Originally Posted by LethalLethality

2 Isn't gonna happen. It completely negates the point of shared storage in the LotRO store.

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They could always sell us specific housing storage. After all, we only get one house per account, and the store sells housing items itself.

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Originally Posted by ChromiteSwiftpaw

Things that absolutely NEED to happen with housing:

1) Give us a REASON to go to our house or neighborhood. Heck give us a reason to go to our friends houses!

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Only if it's occasional. Trying to turn houses or neighborhoods into social centers would either fail, or be bad for the game. There are simply too many of them, dispersing players too much.

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2) Provide storage for bound to character or account housing items.

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Yeah, seems far past time to have fixed this restriction. I suspect "corner cases" are a problem here... what if a character with a bound item stored in your house chest were *deleted*? What happens if they're transferred to a different server? Etc. Getting any of that wrong could lead to storage with items you could never remove.

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3) Provide a LOT more storage inside of our house. Housing items on their own take up a lot of space let alone cosmetic items. Give us storage space.

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This is certainly a lot more feasible than adding more inventory space. Seems like a good way for them to get some $$ too, since more storage is likely to cost.

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4) Get rid of the 'size' system with hooks. If we want to put an enormous item in a small slot so be it. Who cares if it blocks the doorway or something. Maybe we want to create a crazy house. Hey, it'll have character.

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Decorations have collision volumes, which means putting them in the wrong spot could have a number of unpleasant consequences (and probably produce a number of unpleasant bugs). However, it does seem reasonable to be more flexible about where smaller items can be placed. If someone wants to put Large, Small, or Thin furniture in a "Special" furniture slot, let them. Speaking of which, why even have a "thin" category? Just move those spots a bit if necessary, make them Small, and let any Small/Thin items go there (or in a Large or Special furniture slot).

Bonus points if they give us controls to move furniture smaller than its "hook" around within those boundaries - instead of just having a rotation control, add left/right and forward/back ones too...

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5) Provide more hooks so we can do a finer placement of things.

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Or at least offer some different "layouts" (where hooks are placed in different places for each layout). 3 or 4 of those should help people get something they're happy with. If they kept size/location constraints (but made them more flexible, as above), they could even do this without requiring people to pick up all their items as it switched. You might wind up with a pretty goofy placement after a switch, but that's easily fixed when you redecorate.

Khafar

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Originally Posted by Sapience

I'm glad you posted this. As you can see the word is revision. A long way from what some were clearly thinking. A revision is an alteration. Not a wholesale ground up replacement.

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Suddenly, I'm reminded of the California Constitution and the difference between revisions and amendments...

So are the latest class updates and skill trees considered revisions or replacements?

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Originally Posted by Deusdictum

Suddenly, I'm reminded of the California Constitution and the difference between revisions and amendments...

So are the latest class updates and skill trees considered revisions or replacements?

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Class revamps.

I consider the ability to prepay maintenance for 6 months and the reintroduction of foreclosure to be a "major revision" already. It has allowed countless players access to homes on servers that were previously out of houses and out of neighborhoods.

I know this was done in preparation for something larger, but even if we get nothing else this year, I'm satisfied with Turbine's efforts so far.

After experiencing the housing options in some other games, I think I would still be disappointed with any changes Turbine could reasonably make with the resources currently available. I can accept LOTRO's housing for what it is.

I'm hoping for more hooks on the inside and outside :)

Deluxe houses have tons of empty spaces even if you put items in all the hooks, and I really want to have more furniture in my house. People who like empty space could leave some hooks empty, and those who like it more cluttered could fill all the hooks :)

And some items that are Large, can fit physically in a hook that's Small, so maybe look over sizes a bit. As it is now there's only a few large hooks to choose from.

Really looking forward to seeing what the housing revision will bring :)


Oh and please please please make all or at least most housing items that are bound to one character bound to the account instead, and please make it possible to store bound items in the storage chests. I mean, it's more practical to keep all your music in the house so you don't have to check all your characters every time you want to look for a certain music box to play in your house :)

Regardless of anything else, it's a welcome change to see some straight and direct answers. It's a lot easier to accept it isn't what you'd hoped when you haven't been strung along until the last minute.

I couldn't care less about more storage. I want more places to display items IN MY HOUSE. The hobbit house looks nonsensical in its design--you can have ONE piece of furniture in the middle of a cavernous hall, and that's it: a table but of course no chairs to sit around it. And the vast majority of hooks are for wall slots, not actual furniture. I can have loads of bookshelves but not places to sit and read those books. A fireplace with no chair and tea table next to it (well, I could have one of those if I gave up a log holder to feed the fire). Everything is totally out of proportion with how someone would use a house for RP. Houses are more than extra vault space, and if the update doesn't take that into account, my house will be up for sale and I won't be spending any tp on so-called 'major revisions'.

I am so tired of advertising that says 'Just wait--something great is coming!', only to be followed by 'Well, it's sort of great...a little bit...maybe...And how dare you expect something great anyway?' Either listen to the years of housing recommendations or don't, but stop saying things you don't really mean.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

I'm glad you posted this. As you can see the word is revision. A long way from what some were clearly thinking. A revision is an alteration. Not a wholesale ground up replacement.

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A revision could also be considered an overhaul. For example, when you revise a book, you are making changes to make it better. This can include a few, small changes or a complete re-write of several passages.

That being said, I would be happy just to see crafting areas in the neighborhoods, then I would actually have a reason to go there.

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Originally Posted by Silmelin

I'm hoping for more hooks on the inside and outside :)

Deluxe houses have tons of empty spaces even if you put items in all the hooks, and I really want to have more furniture in my house. People who like empty space could leave some hooks empty, and those who like it more cluttered could fill all the hooks :)

And some items that are Large, can fit physically in a hook that's Small, so maybe look over sizes a bit. As it is now there's only a few large hooks to choose from.

Really looking forward to seeing what the housing revision will bring :)


Oh and please please please make all or at least most housing items that are bound to one character bound to the account instead, and please make it possible to store bound items in the storage chests. I mean, it's more practical to keep all your music in the house so you don't have to check all your characters every time you want to look for a certain music box to play in your house :)

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Or, make the hooks movable. If the hooks could be movable I would be find with that. More hooks and make them movable. That would work for me. Either way, looking forward to it.

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Originally Posted by Elderban

A revision could also be considered an overhaul. For example, when you revise a book, you are making changes to make it better. This can include a few, small changes or a complete re-write of several passages.

That being said, I would be happy just to see crafting areas in the neighborhoods, then I would actually have a reason to go there.

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I still would not use crafting areas in neighbors because of their isolation from any travel stable location. If they added stables that offered quick travel to primary towns and locations then I might consider it. What would seal the deal for me would be some perk like the vender discounts we already have for owning a house - say a 5% crit bonus on all crafting. I would definitely use my neighborhood for that. :)

If Turbine could give us incentives to visit our neighborhoods other than for roleplaying and extra storage we would have less neighborhoods that are 'ghost neighborhoods'!

Jorlan

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Originally Posted by Whart

I am so tired of advertising that says 'Just wait--something great is coming!', only to be followed by 'Well, it's sort of great...a little bit...maybe...

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This is why my company lets marketing/sales people talk to customers, and doesn't use developers much for that. Marketing/sales always makes it sound like the last thing we delivered was awesome, only to be exceeded in awesomeness by what we're currently working on. Developers tend to be more "grounded" than that, and most of us would make horrible sales people.

Khafar

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Originally Posted by Khafar

This is why my company lets marketing/sales people talk to customers, and doesn't use developers much for that. Marketing/sales always makes it sound like the last thing we delivered was awesome, only to be exceeded in awesomeness by what we're currently working on. Developers tend to be more "grounded" than that, and most of us would make horrible sales people.

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This reminds me of an old Dilbert strip: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1994-10-09/

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Originally Posted by Whart

I am so tired of advertising that says 'Just wait--something great is coming!', only to be followed by 'Well, it's sort of great...a little bit...maybe...And how dare you expect something great anyway?' Either listen to the years of housing recommendations or don't, but stop saying things you don't really mean.

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Advertising, politics and the news by so-called journalists. All BS. I don't believe anything anyone says in the media at first glance. I assume it's only partly true to begin with, so I'd buy the story. I also assume the lies are veiled behind misinformation, half information and onesided information. Some say we are governed by fear. Untrue: BS, that's what we're governed by.

That said, Turbine didn't literally promise us moveable hooks at all. They did promise us an update and I expect them to deliver, the escrow thing was a good and important start. You see here part of my strategy of coping with BS without turning into an unhappy sod, is clinging to the things that are true - it's that half full glass thing ;)

I am indeed disappionted by moveable hooks not making it to this housing update, because it would have been soooo sweet! I kind of expected it to not make it though, I really hoped but that was it.

So, Sapience, now would be a nice time to say something about ... mannequins? Closets that give us access to our wardrobe? New awesome furniture such as the laden table's of the bounder's bounty event?

Ok so we will probably see a new housing chest, or more storage added to the existing chests.

Anything else would be wishful thinking, like:
-crafting facilities in your house/housing instance
-new housing regions
-more slots to put items in
-merging instances

Don't think we'd get too much.

Anything less than a major overhaul of housing is not likely to impress anyone to whom housing is important. The more I hear Sapience talking it down, the more wry I feel about the whole thing. There was a great post by a dev that's been circulating for ages; anything less than the revamp that talked about is not likely to improve the system significantly.

That we're in September and have so little detail on something that is supposed to happen "this year" indicates to me that they know it will not be up to standards and that they don't want to expose themselves to weeks and months of people going "ack".

Things that are *necessary* in order to have useful houses:

1. putting bound items in chests, especially housing items.
2. many many many more hooks - the houses and the yards as they are look ....bare. Especially the broad broad expanses of floors.
3. not having to put large furniture in the middle of a room. I've never seen a bed that you can walk entirely around in my life. It makes houses look silly when you put a bed in them they way they are in game.
4. more rooms in houses than we have now. Where are the kitchens? So much housing decorations could be designed around kitchens - starting with rohan we can actually probably fill a kitchen room with stuff.

Being able to "free-hook" place things would have really made a difference. So would having instanced housing addresses *in* Bree, hobbit towns, Rivendell, Moria, etc. Too bad we're not going to see any or many of the great ideas for housing that have been proposed and lobbied for, for *years*.

Really, the housing revamp is a much bigger deal to me than Helm's Deep. The only thing about Helm's Deep that is likely to get my attention (and my enjoyment of it will be dependent on how they it's implemented) are the Glittering Caves of Aglarond. Do that right and I'll enjoy the expansion. Ignore it or do it wrong and I won't be pleased, oh no precious.

https://www.lotro.com/forums/images/...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sapience https://www.lotro.com/forums/images/...post-right.png
I will say what I have said before. Keep in mind we've been saying update, not overhaul and not 'new system'. If you're expecting a radically different, or entirely new system you're going to be disappointed. If you're thinking improvements and updates, you're probably going to be a lot more realistic in your thinking and a lot closer to the reality.


I guess I would have been disappointed then :( Thanks for the heads up, I guess.

My excitement levels for the Planned Housing Change as been switched from truly "Way Excited" to a melancholy "Ho Hum".

Now I know exactly how Raiders are feeling about no raids in Helms Deep.

At least change it so I can have chairs around my bloody tables! Totally stupid the way it is now.

I suppose an additional chest is OK (if that is indeed a change), don't know where I will put it, all my hooks are full. No point in a new chest if it cannot store bound/ bound to other character items in it.

No point in any changes if I can't have one character move all furniture even if bound to another character. It is so frustrating. They are all on the same account!

... wonders off muttering under breath... stupid over wishing forums and over promising Producers...

... comes back, shakes and points finger...


https://www.lotro.com/forums/images/...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sapience https://www.lotro.com/forums/images/...post-right.png
I'm glad you posted this. As you can see the word is revision. A long way from what some were clearly thinking. A revision is an alteration. Not a wholesale ground up replacement.


.... Sorry, but I hate these so called clever little play on words. If an an 'unremarkable update' has always been in the pipeline, it should have plainly been said from the beginning, and mediators should have jumped in from time to calm the masses... instead of having very long threads without any comments from the people in Blue.

I don't know how big the pro housing community is, but it does appear to be a passionate and creative community.

And.... I am never going to read another Kate Paiz document again, Tolkien is the fantasy writer here (with some living Dev Team support), not Kate Paiz.

Thank you.

...Walks away muttering, finger pointing over...

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Originally Posted by JRAD65

https://www.lotro.com/forums/images/...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sapience https://www.lotro.com/forums/images/...post-right.png
I will say what I have said before. Keep in mind we've been saying update, not overhaul and not 'new system'. If you're expecting a radically different, or entirely new system you're going to be disappointed. If you're thinking improvements and updates, you're probably going to be a lot more realistic in your thinking and a lot closer to the reality.


I guess I would have been disappointed then :( Thanks for the heads up, I guess.

My excitement levels for the Planned Housing Change as been switched from truly "Way Excited" to a melancholy "Ho Hum".

Now I know exactly how Raiders are feeling about no raids in Helms Deep.

At least change it so I can have chairs around my bloody tables! Totally stupid the way it is now.

I suppose an additional chest is OK (if that is indeed a change), don't know where I will put it, all my hooks are full. No point in a new chest if it cannot store bound/ bound to other character items in it.

No point in any changes if I can't have one character move all furniture even if bound to another character. It is so frustrating. They are all on the same account!

... wonders off muttering under breath... stupid over wishing forums and over promising Producers...

... comes back, shakes and points finger...


https://www.lotro.com/forums/images/...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sapience https://www.lotro.com/forums/images/...post-right.png
I'm glad you posted this. As you can see the word is revision. A long way from what some were clearly thinking. A revision is an alteration. Not a wholesale ground up replacement.


.... Sorry, but I hate these so called clever little play on words. If an an 'unremarkable update' has always been in the pipeline, it should have plainly been said from the beginning, and mediators should have jumped in from time to calm the masses... instead of having very long threads without any comments from the people in Blue.

I don't know how big the pro housing community is, but it does appear to be a passionate and creative community.

And.... I am never going to read another Kate Paiz document again, Tolkien is the fantasy writer here (with some living Dev Team support), not Kate Paiz.

Thank you.

...Walks away muttering, finger pointing over...

---

Well said. No enthusiasm here if the "major revision" doesn't include more places to put furniture in spots where it makes sense, and fixing of broken housing items (for example, do you really expect us to barter bounders tokens for a dragon painting that sticks halfway out of the wall? I think not.). And the idea of having housing items bound to characters not accounts is just plain silly. As it stands now, there is no motivation to complete deeds or instances that lead to housing trophies, because there is nowhere to put what you earn. And there's no market for Store housing items because, again, there's nowhere to put them. We aren't the only ones missing out--Turbine is too.

I also think there's a difference between totally free placement (pretty much any object can go anywhere) and being able to place objects anywhere on a particular surface. So tables/rugs/chairs can be placed anywhere on the floor, or paintings can be placed anywhere against a wall, and bookshelves/dressers be bound by wall and floor. I'm hopeful, sort of...

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Originally Posted by JRAD65

If an an 'unremarkable update' has always been in the pipeline, it should have plainly been said from the beginning

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Please, even a rather "blunt" developer would never phrase it that way. Executive producers have many roles, but none of them could be described as "Drenches Customer Dreams with Cold Water".

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mediators should have jumped in from time to calm the masses...

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If I were to do that after my boss' boss made a public announcement, I'd be fired on the spot. I'm a little surprised that Sapience started venturing into the "expectations setting" game back in June, but perhaps it's finally time.

Marketing/sales people are... uh... "enthusiastic" is the charitable way to put it. Comes with the territory. I always try to discount what they say, heavily. That said, do you want a housing update or not? I do. But if only a massive overhaul will do, they can save themselves and the passionate housing people a lot of trouble and just shelve the plans for later in the year, then work on something else instead.

Khafar

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Originally Posted by AvalonMists

I also think there's a difference between totally free placement (pretty much any object can go anywhere) and being able to place objects anywhere on a particular surface. So tables/rugs/chairs can be placed anywhere on the floor, or paintings can be placed anywhere against a wall, and bookshelves/dressers be bound by wall and floor. I'm hopeful, sort of...

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Agreed. My link in my signature outlines basically this in a plan I think that can use the current system a lot more liberally.

/shamelesspromotion

Fredelas

I consider the ability to prepay maintenance for 6 months and the reintroduction of foreclosure to be a "major revision" already. It has allowed countless players access to homes on servers that were previously out of houses and out of neighborhoods.

I think that is an awfully generous statement. I look at opening up of the neighborhoods as a fix only, something Turbine had to act on. It did not occur to me to think of this as an update.

You are a generous person.

I applaud the fact we now have 6 monthly maintenance, again a logical complementary fix with a little pinch of welcomed, if not rare, polish.

This game is about having fun. My understanding is (from reading forums), some players were missing out on a basic (level 15?) expectation and dare I say, right... to buy a house and have fun.

Turbine made an error and they fixed it, I am very happy with the fix :) .

• Khafar
  
  
  https://www.lotro.com/forums/images/...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by JRAD65 https://www.lotro.com/forums/images/...post-right.png
  If an an 'unremarkable update' has always been in the pipeline, it should have plainly been said from the beginning
  
  Please, even a rather "blunt" developer would never phrase it that way. Executive producers have many roles, but none of them could be described as "Drenches Customer Dreams with Cold Water".
  
  mediators should have jumped in from time to calm the masses...
  
  If I were to do that after my boss' boss made a public announcement, I'd be fired on the spot. I'm a little surprised that Sapience started venturing into the "expectations setting" game back in June, but perhaps it's finally time.
  
  Marketing/sales people are... uh... "enthusiastic" is the charitable way to put it. Comes with the territory. I always try to discount what they say, heavily.That said, do you want a housing update or not? I do. But if only a massive overhaul will do, they can save themselves and the passionate housing people a lot of trouble and just shelve the plans for later in the year, then work on something else instead.
  
  Khafar

I know you asked a rhetorical question; Yes, I do want a housing update.

I do not want it to be half-assed. I do not think that is too much to ask.

From my woeful but seemingly healthy 'ho hum' attitude, there is only one way to go, up. Sapience has done his job.

I do so love to be pleasantly surprised, though. :p


Cheers

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Originally Posted by JRAD65

Yes, I do want a housing update. I do not want it to be half-assed. I do not think that is too much to ask.

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Unless they can monetize it fairly well (and fairly broadly), it may indeed be "too much to ask". When you've seen coworkers get the axe in the past year, you tend to concentrate on how to increase revenues -- and especially profits -- in the next year. A housing update which doesn't bring in much if any additional revenues is very likely to be "half-assed", because they simply cannot afford do more than that.

So why not do a "housing expansion" which costs $20 and make it more full-featured? I can think of two likely reasons:

1. The percentage of MMO customers who are "housing enthusiasts" is probably on the small side. After all, the 800-pound gorilla in this market doesn't have any housing at all, despite making money hand over fist for 9 years now. The percentage of MMO customers who are sufficiently excited enough about housing to pay extra $$ for it are almost certainly smaller than that.
2. A housing revamp would require the talents of many different developers, meaning that it would come directly out of what they can provide in terms of new content, their bread & butter. The "opportunity costs" for spending those resources on doing housing (perhaps postponing the next expansion for 6+ months) would be high.

Khafar

I get what you are saying Khafar, I really do. Priorities, schedules and budgets. All equally important.

Yes, it is horrible when staff are layed off. Good colleagues go, and you feel guilty because people, you think may be better operators, go instead of you. You give hope for their future and wonder if they are only the first tranche. It is horrible.

Khafer, I would think apart from this Game making money, there needs to have the feel of quality as well. I am afraid the polish is getting thin.

This game has been running for what... 6 years now. Allowing 2 years for it to settle in, that gave Turbine 4 years where little improvements could have been added along the way- spread over time to make less impact on development time , giving little satisfactions along the way for the players, adding a little dab of very effective polish here and there.

I would have thought the Marketing people and producers would love to use the words 'polished' and 'quality'.

Regardless of the bottom line, this game has to be about fun. We pay a premium price for this game, I expect quality as well.

It is not as if there weren't suggestions from players from day one. Any and all ideas from the "way out funky ideas" to the realistic .. "OK, we can do this sort of thing" have been expressed time and time again, alas with little or no input from the The Blue over the years.

I will always bow to your knowledge on how things work in the gaming world, I wouldn't have a clue. Four years is a long time to be ignored and to wait.

Housing is not even a secondary mechanic in this game, not even in the same league as the LI system for instance, I know this. LI's are important and need work on them, but I am not passionate about my disposal 2nd age weapon. Give it a couple of months after HD comes out and I will destroy this lore breaking North Korean imitation of Glamdring and make another disposable level 95 Legendary weapon where I will pop some relics from what I assume were created by 1st age ancient masters, that always seem to be carried in semi naked Orcs underwear.

My house does not get disposed of or replaced. Its natural progression is to grow with me. Has from day one of purchase. I obtain different furniture and paintwork etc as the game progresses. For those who Raid, a place to showcase those earnt trophies and rewards... some amazing to see.

I do not know other games, however, Turbine should not care about that 800 lb Gorilla at all. It is a different league. The only way to tackle that Gorilla is to respect it and not play its' game. Differentiate not imitate. Imitation will ensure the Gorilla wins each and every time, not through it's brilliance and innovation, but through shear size alone.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by JRAD65

This game has been running for what... 6 years now. Allowing 2 years for it to settle in...

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Actually, they were producing new features and content far and away faster the first 9 months or so after the game launched than at any time since. Including housing, since it didn't ship with that feature. The reason was simple: they still had basically a full game development team working after the game shipped to try and get it off to a great start. The live team isn't that size, and never will be. That's why they were able to add housing, a faction system, two raids (Helegrod & Rift), two new regions (Evendim and Forchel), and a number of other features in such a short time. That pace wasn't sustainable though.

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that gave Turbine 4 years where little improvements could have been added along the way- spread over time to make less impact on development time

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Basically, I think they tried to do too much, and revenues right from the start weren't sufficient to allow them to spend much time and resources beyond the core game (story + new content, plus new features to support/extend those). PvMP has had relatively little attention since that first year. Fishing was delivered and then forgotten. Crafting's seen relatively few updates, none major. Music... a few instruments were added. You know about housing. About the only "extra" feature which has received somewhat consistent attention has been raids.

Back before the game launched, they had scoped things more narrowly: no PvMP, no raids. Crafting was on the bubble, saved by the lead designer's efforts on its behalf, but nothing to write home about. No housing either. They put big investments into adding all of that early on (either just before the game launched or in the 6 months after), but I think it was just too much for the resources they have. It would have been better IMO if they had cut out some of those big pieces entirely, and gone "Best of Class" on just a few core things. Check-the-box features might attract some extra players, but they won't retain many.

We probably won't agree on what the "core" features should be, but that's OK :).

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Turbine should not care about that 800 lb Gorilla at all. It is a different league.

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The point of that was really to say that housing is a niche market. WoW has earned absolutely huge revenues over the years, and could very easily afford to do housing "right". Yet they haven't. Nor even "half-assed". Why not? I just don't think it's a huge market, although it does seem to be a fairly passionate one.

Khafar

First Khafar, your insights are absolutely amazing and well insightful. As for the housing community... yea it's a small niche but a passionate one. I come from City Of Heroes, after years there and promises they finally put in bases. But the base was almost a 100% free placement, there were even glitches that allowed you to do things you weren't supposed to do. The players went insane making their bases. I have a kinship on the infinity server (The Woodland Realm), that went for months farming the money we needed to build, and I built them a grand base. Devs went and looked at player bases and even offered who's the best contests. Is the market small? Yea. Is the market passionate enough to warrant the resources? Yes... think about it, this is a group that is saying, "Hey we love this game and are staying...." far better then the groups that go hard core on say skirms or raids, hit the level cap, then stop playing. These players are ones that will sit online in the house, pondering for hours what color to make the walls, and will that antlered chandelier really go with the rug.... But will also sit there and drop hard currency on TP and Mithril Coins to get the features and decorations that they want. If the devs want to look at it from a purely economic stand point, it's a money maker.