Feel free to discuss the Helm's Deep NDA drop here.
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Feel free to discuss the Helm's Deep NDA drop here.
It's going to be very different it seems. But I really like the changes and think it is a beautiful update to my favorite world...
Any information about creep changes?
The dev's promised Helm's Deep will bring 'tough choices' with regards to the class changes... The only choice for many players will be if they keep playing or not, alas I don't think the choice will be all that tough in the end.
Class changes are awful. This is now a completely different game than I originally purchased, and not for the better. As Bhoris_they_spider said, the tough choice is whether or not to keep playing.
Region, Epic and Quests: Similar to what we've had before. Turbine's world design team have excelled, as usual. It is still Rohan, but unique from East Rohan, with some amazing eye candy (Edoras and Helm's Deep, for example. The pictures don't do either justice).
Epic Battles: Chaotic and fun. They can take some getting used to at first, as you are dropped in the, ahem, "deep" end. The scale is spot on and very impressive.
Class Changes: Big and sweeping, and undoubtedly controversial. The most important thing with these is to give them a chance. They are very different to what we have on live, but the core elements of classes remain intact. Skills may be gated or found on the trees, while others are merged or accessed via procs, etc. After the initial shock wears off, you may find you really like the changes. I know I do. Not only have skills generally been improved, but cooldowns have been mostly decreased across the board. All classes also have a slew of new skills, specific to various trait trees.
-Bel
Are you speaking as a beta tester? If so, please elaborate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider
Please say it isn't so.
Please say that hunter's agile rejoinder isn't going away.
I use agile rejoinder as often as possible. This is my primary heal. I have the legacy maxed out on my legendary item; at the cost of several scrolls of empowerment. I use this melee skill just as often as many of my bow skills.
Please bring it back before the end of beta. Don't let this skill go!
Epic Battles= Skirmishes 3.0;
All involve daily locks on each quest (the side quests you get inside are random). Random jewelery rewards. No way to earn specific Epic Battles rewards.
While on cooldown all you can get are marks and medallions. You cannot get XP.
So you cant get exp from Big Battles? Thats a good thing i guess, people were getting worried that low lvls could just lvl off this system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crell_1
mmm. So. Let's say that beta has been turbulent. If you hate the changes being implemented, your views were loudly put out by those who felt similarly. People did their best. The devs have listened. But some things will not change and some of those things are going to be dealbreakers for some players. Likewise, if you love the changes, then there were vocal beta testers always willing to put their views across too. The overwhelming impression I took was of people disengaging from the beta process as time went by. Make of that what you will.
The basic run down for me is that you need to look beyond the trait trees. Those are just pictures. And once you do that you'll see that there's been a huge shift (not a minor one) in some classes. In all classes in some ways. For the bulk of players, how you play will change. These are significant things. Please do try them out if you can, read up on them and be aware of what will be in front of you on release day. My initial reaction was horror. My current reaction is only marginally less strong for some of the classes I play. It's no point heaping abuse on people. Really isn't. The devs must be working 20 hours a day currently trying to hammer things into shape for release day. But I think this change on its own merits isn't a bad one, it's just a wrong one for a game of this age and for the community I associate with within it. I'd define that community as players who play a massively multiplayer online rpg to play with other people and who have invested a lot of time in learning to play their class/es. I once thought it was a fairly large community, but one which is obviously diminishing as time passed with RoR.
Of the three classes I play the most, burglar is the one I'm most content/least concerned about. There have been some good quality of life improvements made. I have niggles and issues but for me it's alright. Not going to say I love it, because I don't. I played a burg for how it was, not how it will be. I wanted a complex support class, I'm not sure that's what is there now. It does improve upon the de facto situation of post-ToO burgs. Swings and roundabouts.
Loremaster was an odd one. It seems like the emphasis has been firmly placed on dps. Whilst I agreed with some changes which will be controversial (SI for one), I'm still deeply saddened to see such a nuanced class reduced to flashy effects and dps counting. The devs did listen to feedback, but it's just confused what I felt was a healthy first attempt to try and recreate the class within the strait jacket of how the trait trees have been implemented. One of those where I disagreed with the feedback acted upon at times only marginally less than the initial changes made. It may be a long process to find some sort of happy medium ground with this class because it's a huge square peg being hammered into a round hole.
For minstrels, I don't know. It's not the class Orion left. For better or worse, that's gone. It feels adequate for dps on landscape but you have concerns about whether that is sufficient for anything else. If anything else is actually ever really required. The replacement for harmony is too odd to try and set down into words. With polish it could well be fine. There's promise there. It's two weeks before release. Blue line healing is healthy. Perhaps overly so. But splitting things out across the three trait trees leaves you missing what isn't there. It's hard logging into live and then into beta.
I mean even something as simple and basic as saving all your skills in each spec in the exact position you placed them in isn't present currently. I'm sure that'll be fixed (if it's possible) but this is two weeks before release date and it's just such an annoyance to have to keep changing where the 'general skills' are each time you switch.
In terms of graphics and landscape content, it is as you'd expect from Turbine.
My personal view of Big Battles is that it will be a struggle to have them tested and bugfixed in time for the scheduled release date. While I appreciate the concepts behind them, I found them unengaging and sterile. It's no fun being on the fringes of the battle. It's no fun being presented with yet another minigame to play and which ignores pretty much everything about my level and class and gear. Micromanaging groups of soldiers to fight on my behalf is not why I play this game. Nor do I wish to grind out a whole new set of skills in order to partake in content which continues to reward via a random number generator. I hate the RNG as a way to offer loot. It does not encourage me to play more. It encourages me to log off and find another game to play. And I know balancing needs to be done, but going afk and still getting rewards in a solo instance just offends me.
So I'm left with a game I loved, a kin I think the world of, a tribe who are just fantastic and the prospect of a second expansion in a row with limited appeal to me. I've not pre-ordered. Not even sure I'll buy.
You can, but it only comes from the QUESTS you complete during big battles, not from the actual mobs themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordmattabir
Are the Beta Forums now open for people, who could not access them before?
Since we are free to discuss BETA now, I'll be happy to provide my input. First thing I noticed when entering the Westemnet was the lack of obscene landscape lag. And the magnificently made landscape is a sight to see. (Always have to start on a positive note).
As far as the class changes go, I have to admit they did a decent job. I enjoyed playing all the classes despite a few key skill bugs which should be fixed by launch. There are a few things I believe need to be fixed though, like the fact the Hunters blue line has too much DPS still.
Now, Big Battles. This may be the breaking point for LotRO. You must complete the Big Battle tutorial. If you do not, you will break your keyboard and rage quit on the spot. They are fun, challenging, and have something for everyone. You can be an Engineer and set up weapons to kill scores of enemies while being able to repair the walls, banners and weapons. You can be an Officer and direct the Rohirrim in battle. You can even be a Vanguard and fight with the Rohirrim to kill anyone who tries to breach the lines. Use all points you get wisely. It will take a few Big Battles before you will get a handle on it and then you shall succeed. And yes, the "Raid" is hard.
You have two weeks to prepare yourselves for the Westemnet. Don't worry about gearing up, the stats take another boom in HD. 4-5k main stat with even "squishy" classes have Vitality that is insane. I am not saying this is good. Every class feels like a mini-tank in HD with proper equipment. Even those with Gold Horselord items, won't be using them for long.
Turbine you have two weeks too. Remember that. The bug reports are higher than I have ever seen them in a successful BETA at this point before launch that I have participated in before (talking mostly about other games). This is not good. My personal opinion is that HD is at least a month away from a successful launch. Any sooner, without miracles occurring, will be a catastrophic failure. Important quests and instances are not sorted out, skill procs still not working properly and even some battle bugs and retuning need to be done and tested in two weeks. This is not looking good for a successful November 18th launch.
(All a short hand look at my opinion about the HD Beta. Been there since B2, and now have been burnt out because I am encountering many of the same issues now as I did then.)
Edit: You do not want to be under level 40 in HD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brom_Ironfist
Skills are now locked under trait trees...with 3 trees figure about 1/3 of your skills are locked within each. Pick a tree, now the majority of the skills you have now are locked away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidigean
I can't speak for the last couple of builds because I've already left for another MMO. I'm hoping for some radical changes to this system sometime after go-live since it appears that trees are here for launch. My champ is no longer "my champ". I now have to trait for either single target, or AoE. I can't do both.
I was/am a beta tester from the first beta. The changes to my main class, Minstrel, have been soul crushing. I did a lot of testing and gave a lot of feedback during Beta #1 (as did many others). Unfortunately, NOTHING had changed for us in Beta #2. Minstrel was generally regarded as the most "alpha state" of all the classes. There have been some slight tweaks and modifications for Minstrels, but I still consider the class severely impaired.
I apologize that my writing is not as effective as it could be. I'm sure you will receive much more eloquent responses with hard facts from other testers. But I wanted to let it be known that I am one of many minstrels who is unhappy with the state of the class. I'll be honest, after participating in Betas #1 and #2, and then reading the patch notes for Beta #3 that still contained no changes for the Minstrel, I just couldn't bring myself to log in anymore - to beta or live game. I don't have the time or energy or interest to take the pile of stink I was presented with and try to make myself enjoy playing with it. I did continue to read the beta forums, however, to see if the Minstrel was improving at all - it wasn't.
I have not/will not pre-order Helm's Deep. This is the first expansion that I haven't pre-ordered. This is not the game I fell in love with 5 years ago. I may eventually purchase the expansion with accrued TP (I'm a Lifer) in order to follow the epic story through to the end, but I will no longer spend real money on this game.
On a more positive note, the world building team has outdone themselves once again. The landscape is beautiful as always.
ETA: For all the Minstrels who do not want to wade through all the pages of this thread to discover some of the disappointments, this quote from chrohandhaivey on page 6 sums it up pretty well (paragraph formatting, mine):
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrohandhaivey
The class changes are drastic, so you really have to try them yourself. After months of beta, many are choosing to move on from Lotro, or to resign themselves to accepting the changes, yet others love them.
Some classes will enter Beta 2.0 on Nov. 18 so you might be better off taking a break or working an alt for several months, prime among these is the minstrel.
If you have not already purchased HD by this time, don't purchase it until you've had a chance to figure out if you like what it offers. I don't think it's worth $40, and I don't think it's worth 4300 TP for a quest pack, a "Big Skirmish" pack and a main class that is broken and boring. YMMV.
It's gone with the wind. We have yet to win that argument. They gave Cry of the Hunter back, but that was a heated debate because many hunters where on both sides of the discussion. Agile Rejoinder was something we all wanted, but never got.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidigean
I will tell all that crafting got a fairly good overhaul. Tin has been removed as a mineable and now has to be bought from suppliers for making bronze(includes Khazard-tin). Khazard ores have all been turned into 1 ore node and you have processing recipes to make which ingot you need from the ore. Weaponsmith, Metalsmith,and Tailor got processing recipes so you can get experience in the craft with less resources used(I think Jeweler and Woodworker also got some but I didn't copy over a jeweler or woodworker or choose jeweler or woodworker to check so can't say for sure). Heavy armour classes(Capts, Champs, Guards) now have heavy armour use from the get-go and tier 1 and 2 metalsmith recipes got updated to reflect that along with the intro quests giving heavy armour as a choice. All component recipes have been removed and now the craft skills use straight resources like Scholar or like the tool recipes for Metalsmith. Forester got some changed processing recipes for different types of planks and leathers for all tiers and tailor(and presumably woodworker) have recipes that use the different types. As for crafting guild rep items they all took a hit in xp they give.
They are not. The NDA has been lifted, but the beta is still a closed beta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schinderhannes
I think, as the devs have mentioned, that they're a lot more than just a new version of skirmishes and if they had to compare them to Skirms they'd probably label them 4.0 or 5.0. They're that different from what people think of as a skirmish at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crell_1
This is actually very much what we have heard from the majority of players. I'll also mention that a lot of the final form of the classes and which skills are in which tree and the skills that found their way into the general pool are there in no small part to player feedback. There have been literally hundreds upon hundreds of changes made to the trees and their organization. Some literally ripped right from player feedback threads and put in game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belnavar
Well ppl.
I suggest wear you protective gear, fasten seatbelt.
Ask family to lock the door from outside and throw away the key.
(Ask loclksmith to come by after a week or so.)
Fasten seatbelt, put on helmet, eyeprotection, gloves.
Now. You are gonna have a really really really interesting experience to say the least.
Lets say like a twohanded hammer straight into your head, for example.
I sugest that comes whatever, hang on and dig deep.
Then abit deeper. And keep on digging,
Thers alot and not all is gonna look sweet nice or pleasant. Some things have gone, some things are new.
I have ./played my main about 6 months or 7 maybe. Still cannot make heads or tails out of it.
The last try involved making a new char and levelleing it from 1 to 9, manually.
Id say there is something on the other end, but its a far reach and living on fate.
Bets course of action; dig deep. You may need to relearn all your skills.
I reserve my personal oppinion to myself, you are gonna see and have your own oppinion.
Al iam saying is, dig deep.
One big thing for people to be aware of -- that caused a lot of 'discussion' -- is the fact that, when building out your class skill trees, skills in your specialization cost 1 point each, and skills in the other two trees cost 2 points each. This mechanic is what really limits your ability to create hybrid builds -- not to say that it can't be done, but it will definitely come at a cost of some of the skills you are used to having. This is what is meant by "tough decisions."
In general, the class/skill changes are going to be a HUGE learning curve for most everyone, and many people won't like it at all, but many others will eventually get used to it. Just don't expect to be able to recreate exactly how you played your character previously.
Plus, you will have to figure out ways to save your skill bars so that all of your skills don't mysteriously move around when switching specializations.
The other big event with HD is, obviously, the Epic Battles.
-sigh-
They are rough, really rough. They are confusing and designed in such a way as to actually minimize the need for you to use your class skills (whichever ones you have left :D ). Plus, they are also kind of boring a lot of the time -- aside from the 'special objectives' (which you often can't even find but they still mysteriously complete or fail anyway with equal probability), you spend much of your time waiting around and issuing the occasional command. After much feedback, they did add a Tutorial, which helps some, but still -- be prepared to be befuddled and frustrated at first. The Battles play out a lot like a RTS game -- click on this, turn that, run around here and there. Plus, the skill trees in the Battles (Engineer, Vanguard, & Officer) are really designed badly, forcing you to spend points in dopey skills first before you get to the skills that might actually help you, and the skills are expensive (1 point for the first rank, 2 points for the 2nd rank in the same skill, 3 points for the 3rd, etc.). I'm a casual player and unless my kin gets really enthusiastic about these, I can't see doing them any more than I already do the occasional skirmish.
Many of us asked for it back, but yes, it is gone now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidigean
"All we have to decide is what to do with the skills that are given us."
I agree. There's no way I would miss Helms Deep. I think it's going to be a lot of fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider
Originally they were described as 'The Big Brother Of Skirmishes' by one of the producers, at some point Turbine decided they wanted to stop comparing them to skirmishes entirely . I have heard no statements from the development team or anyone prior to this post by you that would label them Skirmishes 4.0 or 5.0.; I felt my Skirmishes 3.0 statement was generous and originally had thought I'd write Skirmishes 2.5;Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapience
I could have almost as easily said 'Wolfs Cleft 1.5'
Epic Battles Pros:
Upscaling
Variety of Roles (Though some are very suited to specific battles more than others)
Epic Battles Cons:
Fixed Group Size (All skirmishes have ALL Group sizes except for Survival Barrow Downs)
Automatic Start (Most Skirmishes allow us to say 'We're ready to start')
No guaranteed Rewards Path (Except for Raid Skirmishes, its always currency->what WE Want)
Daily CDs (Solo Skirmishes dont have any kind of Cooldown!)
Tend to rely more on Brute Force than strategy. (Equally true of skirmishes)
Feels more like a 'Direct your Soldier' / or 'Play with the Clickies' than a fight we're on the front lines for.
Well, there's a new dye color, for those interested in such things, for t9.
Still trying to convince for more dyes to be added to tiers 6 through 9. Never enough colors!
The biggest point of controversy was the expensive spending out of your trait line. We all wanted a lesser penalty or no penalty, but ultimately the penalty stayed. Yes, this makes actual freedom of choice and hybridization much more difficult, and yes, their advertising about more choice was basically not true because the point penalty, especially at lower levels, puts a nice stop to that. This has also been something marked as a 'not changing' thing, so... *shrug*
Captain is better than it was, but I'll miss the tactic buffs. Hunter's pretty cool, though I still won't trait trapper. Haven't played minstrel or LM enough to judge much there.
The landscape is gorgeous.
Overall, no, I don't think it's worth pre-ordering. The raid big battle was fun, but there is only one 12 man size and one 6 man size, and I don't think that worth so much money. The lack of the ability to be hybrid on classes (while possible, much harder) sealed the deal as well. If you enjoy mixing and matching, you won't enjoy HD I think.
Also, as of build 4, if you change trait set ups, the game still does not remember where you put your skills and you have to rearrange them every single time you want a new trait build. Yes, it is very annoying. I hope this is changed in the next couple weeks (or that it was with build 5, I was not able to see for myself).
I just wanted to say that there are min/maxers in the world... it seems all the really great beta testers are not only "maxers" but ultra maxers... they are the ones who solo BfE on challenge mode! They are going to miss some of the skills, but probably not as many as they fear they will. I'm a really good raider and will never even notice they are on another tree... Beta specific stuff: as a champ I can do more dps single target than before... it is very impressive... I can do so much more AoE it is beyond impressive... Now I can actually kill several strong mobs at the same time instead of killing them one at a time with barely any damage to the mob who isn't my main target.. I can do AoE that is no longer only effective against very weak trash mobs... I can martial up and be an effective tank... I just can't do them all at the same time, but I can switch trees between battles and do them all at different stages of a raid... It's very strategic stuff and it seems to me the maxers have missed the point...
Also note that without this change there was pretty much no where left to go with class advances... Our classes were already so far advanced there was nothing left to give and no where to put it if tried...
As for big battles.... totally lost to start... but really very easy to learn, especially if there are others in game who know what is going on.. in beta there was a long time no one had any idea whatsoever, as I think the devs were trying to determine the learning curve... there is so much there!.... you can succeed at any one part of it, and get rewards/xp... you can succeed at 2,3, or more parts (side quests) and get much more rewards. There are I think 4 BB's with probably 6 or 7 possible side quests.. you fight at Helm's dike.... then at helm's deep...then at the glittering caves, and then at the Hornburg, and they can be done solo, duo, 3, 6, or 12 man... how can anyone have any idea what BB's are really like with all these possibilities?...and you can fight as an engineer, an officer, or a vanguard and all these must be leveled with points earned doing the battles.... it's impossible to say what the battles will be like with fully developed players who know exactly what is going on.... they are fun at low levels and I predict will be a blast at end game.... and just try and imagine where the next BB's will be!....
overall I cant wait...
If you are End Game Raider, like myself, Big Battles is the worst thing that could have happen to this game. Most of them all you have to do is start a Big Battle and go AFK. Most of the quest are click this move that, there is next to no fighting that your toon does. You do run around alot.
Mini as we have come to know them are now gone. The mini is so over powered with healing, anyone can do it. They have really dumb down the class.
Most of the beta testers that did not like what was being forced on us were told, too bad nothing is changing, its coming if you like it or not, have left.
Just about everything HD is about solo and duel. If you have a end game raiding kin like myself, it's about to get really small.
I do have to agree with some of the cons. I would love a more variable group size, but the Deeping Wall should be the only Raid. Also a "We are ready" command of some sort would be nice. Don't even think about walking away to see why the baby is crying with the way Big Battles are set up. But you must have missed out on the last build, I got some amazing jewelry from the Big Battles. And the side quest CDs should have a cooldown. People would just farm if they didn't. I also disagree with the brute force comment. The Big Battles are more of a RTS game than just DPS stuff to pieces. Finally this is the Rohirrim's battle. We are there to help guide them and use the knowledge we would have gained as the legendary warriors we are at this point in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crell_1
Warg PvMP Changes:
Mr. Warg provided in the Beta forums a nice list of warg changes. Hopefully he'll be able to itemize them here again. The sum of it is a long list of cooldowns for many of our skills. Some make sense, some don't entirely. No armor boosts or any long-fight survivability increase, except for the new corruptions every creep class gets. However, I wouldn't cry too hard. With Loremaster stun immunity going back to sane again, the warg's CC should be viable again. Yes, that's right! Entire freep raids won't be immune to our pounces anymore! :)
General PvMP Changes:
They added more corruption slots, with bonuses if you are traited 3 of the same, or a bigger bonus of 6 of the same. The bonuses weren't that impressive to me. Some issues were noticed with diminishing returns applying to these bonuses. Perhaps another player can elaborate on this better. I didn't spend much time on it, unfortunately. Believe it or not, I spent more time on my freep toons testing out class changes.
Hunter Class Changes:
I'm sad to report that hunters are going to hurt. The good news is that their DPS is OP, though I'm sure it will be nerfed again in the coming months. (We always are, eh? But this perceived OPness may be coming from overly easy landscape mobs.) The bad news is that it takes fewer brain cells to kill things. Agile rejoinder is gone. :( The hunter cry skill for putting a fear on animals is also gone. Rain of thorns is buried in the Trapper of Foes tree, tier 3 I believe. Rain of arrows is similarly buried (tier 3 or 4) in Bowmaster. Running Bowmaster, you can get Rain of Thorns back easily enough at level cap. However, getting both at levels 47-50ish (the original intended level range) isn't going to happen, due to the double-point penalty of investing in an alternate tree. I feel bad for hunters in mid-range levels. It's going to be a very dull adventure without those skills. Heightened senses is restricted to ToF as a passive. You absolutely MUST trait ToF as your specialization if you want heightened senses. This is going to be bad news for PvPers. Finally, crafted traps/lures/snares are being removed. The devs say they'll make crafted augments for our built-in trap skills. In the meantime, your stacks of traps can be converted into ingots by a weaponsmith. I, for one, will miss my crafted traps. I'm sure many weaponsmiths will be counting the days until they can craft the trap augments.
We did get a few wins. The devs initially removed our bubble, but after we testers begged them, they brought it back. The devs had likewise removed Bard's arrow, but have returned it as a base skill everyone gets rather than a tree skill. The same happened with swift bow. ToF also didn't have inductionless traps as it does on live, but the devs fixed that as well. They also made range targeting of traps optional. I found it rather annoying and clunky, so that was very nice of them to let us decide how we want to lay down our traps.
Despite these small victories, the hunter has been dumbed down further. Getting back all of your old skills won't be possible. Many of them are emergency "panic" buttons for when we get in over our heads. I'm very sad to see them gone. They're like old friends. We are now a one-trick pony. I have personally tried to adjust to these changes, but I think it's safe to say I don't think I'll continue playing my hunter any longer. It just isn't fun anymore. Let's face it: Getting in over our heads was half the fun of playing a hunter. All of that is mostly gone.
I will, however, leave you with a few more positives. Huntsman is interesting. You can fire on the run! ToF has been given some perks as well. It feels a lot spiffier damage-wise. All lines have new skills. Some you might like, some not. They're mostly "blow things up" skills, with relatively little brain power involved. However, don't take my word for it. It's best to try it out for yourself, and decide if you like these changes or not. I personally am not a fan, but that doesn't mean the changes won't grow on you. But I will warn you that I have chatted with other hunters, both on the forums and in Beta, and the general consensus seems to be that we all feel dumbed down. So be prepared for a shock.
Loremaster Class Changes:
The Ent legendary skill is now buried neck deep in MoNF. However, the Eagle is only on tier 2 of KoA, which is somewhat encouraging news. However, accessing it at level 45-50ish (its original intended level range) will be costly if not traited for KoA. KoA is the strongest the three trees. The others were meh. AN needs more love. And that's not just my opinion. That's the general consensus. A lot of skills are missing. Your skill bar will look like swiss cheese. To get the most skills back, you can go AN, but AN seems to lack a punch. It's meant for group support more than anything. However, I am not a full-time Loremaster to give you more details. I fiddle with an alt from time to time, but mostly play with my hunter. I leave it to the more experienced Loremasters to fill you in.
I have seen the jewelry. You obtain it randomly and not from a barter. There's no way to ensure you'll get pieces you'll actually use. ; To me, its the GOLD items fiasco with DAILY CDs instead of being able to grind it at our leisure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peresbert
Wrong there was a lot of dialog in beta and many changes were made to the trees specifically from player suggestions. We have known that the trees were coming for months so it's not like any of us were surprised that this was the case. I can't speak for minstrels but I know that guardians have not been dumbed down (nor have I had to relearn my class). There's also no way you will get anywhere by going AFK in an epic battle. That's simply not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesm429
Well as the NDA has dropped but the beta remains closed I guess its upto us beta testers to voice our opinions.
I STRESS THIS IS MY OPINION
Personally I hate the changes and am no fan of big battles either and I shall explain why,
The class changes feel incredibly restrictive to me, due to the way these trees have been implemented and the double points out of spec penalty, maxing (or even getting close to max) and going any distance down another tree is just not possible.
On my RK I can heal OR I can dps, going down 1 line means I have virtually no skills to use on any other lines and if I go 50/50 I feel like I cant really do either job effectively. The lack of skills out our disposal leads to dull gameplay I have to few options now should I want to try something different, yes I can re-spec quickly but only if I am not in combat and I will address that in a minute. I loved the previous system I had all my skills available and could mix up my gameplay and build however I chose too, now my choices have been removed.
These are NOT trait trees as described, they are Skill/Trait trees, the trees are used to gate skills behind unlocked portions of them, I believe the trees should have been used as a buff/debuff mechanism for the skills and builds we already had, like a trait tree is designed to do. All these trees have done is reduce our options and the flexibility we once had. I do not care 1 bit what skills I can select when stood in the pony or in a crafting hall somewhere or while hiding behind a fence from a band of orcs while I figure out how to trait, I care what skills I have mid battle, when the tank/healer dies, when someone breaks the mez on 3 or 4 mobs and we need to deal with them, when we are starting to run fine on a dps race etc etc, I want to be able to improvise, adapt to changes in a fight when they happen, not wait till we die then try guess what is going to happen next time so I can build accordingly.
The second thing I detest is no longer being allowed to swap builds mid fight, it was 1 of the reasons I loved my RK so much, go in dpsing but when the main healer dies/crashes/goes afk, I could step up switch gear, start using my heals skills and maybe keep the raid alive, I wasnt gonna main heal the whole raid for any length of time but it was their should I need it. All that is gone now, if the healer dies/crashes etc what are we supposed to do now? wait for the wipe so we can respec in case it happens again, in my opinion it leads to dull,linear group play.
I tested My champ, RK, Warden and minnie (all 85) and I have to say I hated all the changes to each of those classes, none of those classes feel anything like they used to, My champ is slow and clunky and I despise having to choose between AOE build or ST, I cant backup tank, as if I go dps(which is my main job) I have nearly no survival skills.
My RK as mentioned has lost all its diverse appeal its just another class now, not the unique style it once had.
And as for minnie and warden, well they are not my main classes and I am sure people will explain these 2 better but these 2 have suffered the worst.
I am sure there will be people who like these changes and I am truly happy for you if you do, but for me these changes have destroyed why I liked this game, its now just like any cheap MMO out there only with the lore to save it.
Ok Big battles,
Tried these, tried to like them, never will I am afraid.
They are not group content even with 12 people, half the time your not needed as the NPCs do fine without you, they are slow, clunky, and certainly not epic in the slightest. The best way I can describe them to you is hytbold meets skirms, it is another huge grind, playing them once is an experience but they have 0 repeatability for me, the only good thing about them is the more you do them the quicker you are able to get through them thanks to the levelling structure. Once you have done each battle once nothing changes when you do them again, there are no tactics to learn no difference in how you approach them depending on what group make up you have , nothing at all to make you think or to challenge you.
Positives,
The Epic Story quests are again awesome.
The normal quests are also fantastic.
Scenery and landscape as ever is second to none.
In summary, this expac is marmite, you either love it or hate it, take my advice do not preorder this till you try it, the changes are WAY to big to make decisions without seeing them first. And the big battles are the same.
Minor objectives can be completed whilst afk. Sorry, it is true. Refer to the feedback thread in beta forums if you require further details. What wouldn't be true to say is that you'll receive the maximum awards. As no-one has said that, it's irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffor
If I could give one single bit of advice to players concerned about the sweeping class changes it would be to wait for them to hit and play them a bit before you make your mind up on them, one way or the other.
I dislike skill tree systems in every game I've ever played which had them. I enjoy specialization and having to make decisions on how to advance my character, and enjoy having to wait to gain AwesomeAbility<x> down the road as I progress. What I dislike is having AwesomeAbility<x> gated behind KindacoolAbility<y> and DoNotWantAbility<z>, to where I'm picking up things I don't want in order to get to something I do. So I did go into Beta biased heavily against the tree concept.
That said, it wasn't as horrible as I was expecting (and I don't mean this as a 'damming with faint praise' comment). Yes, things are different, and for some classes quite drastically so. I'd have preferred it if the trees were forgotten about and we kept the trait system as it is now, but that's not an option, and to be honest the way the trees have been implemented so far isn't a deal breaker for me personally. For some they will be, and others will probably love the heck out of them. I won't lie and say the trees won me over or anything, but they weren't the horrible "would give Lovecraft nightmares" abominations I was expecting. Just my feeling about it, YMWV.
I think each and every player will need to try them out and decide for themselves what they think. Don't decide now, based on press articles, "I'm leaving this game" posts, or any other pro/anti spin. Play them yourselves and then decide.
Really, have you seen this video?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKo1Rnd1oRw
That Guard has 9 moobs on him and he is not where near dying. Seems dumb down to me.
Where's the "Hitler tries Helms Deep" video? Been waiting for NDA to drop for it to be made.
Just because that particular fact is true does not mean that you will be able to advance your character in any meaningful way nor does it mean that it will be this way once it reaches live. Still the area is huge and full of NPCs so it's not surprising that you can sneak by a BB without participating. Like I said though that doesn't mean it will be like that when it goes live. Besides, who really cares if you can get a pitiful amount of reward for being dead weight? You can do that in much of the live content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheling
lol that reminds me of the ff11 video where hitler gets banned from ff11Quote:
Originally Posted by WhimsicalPacifist
I was dong skirmishes over the weekend on live and it was the exact same. Never came close to dying. Same with three and six mans. Most of them are not hard and EB are not finished yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesm429
There's a difference between "completing" an objective in Epic Battles and actually doing well on it. For example, you can complete something and get an iron medal, which rewards nothing at all. In order to get the better medals, you need to not only participate, but usually participate to a very high level. That said, some encounters are not balanced appropriately, with some too easy and others too hard, and this has been looked at in successive builds, and will hopefully be looked at further before and after launch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheling
For what it's worth, you cannot go AFK throughout a big battle and get a platinum medal. For every soldier and commander that dies, you lose some of your rating, which affects the final medal reward. It is also possible to fail entirely if some of the named characters die.
-Bel
I suspect there will be massive nerfs either before or after the content goes live.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesm429
Yes this is the point I was making and there will be changes before they go live.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belnavar
Possibly. Guardians are pretty powerful in the new builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillBones
Yes. You can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belnavar
You have to be able to SOLO acquire platinum medals. That means, by definition, that bringing a 'Duo' player into the SOLO space, they have the potential to be AFK and get platinum rewards.; While it's true someone will have to do something, that may not be you.
I was among people who were shocked with the changes due to the beta1. Beta2 and beta3 were same - nothing good to tell about class changes.
But after beta4 there has been significant progress. I can live with my main now - there will be something new to learn but I have great hopes for future.
Thinking out loud: I have 55 points to spend on each of my 3 level 85 chars - So if we wait long enough we will have pleanty of points to spend once we get to Mordor (I can already see my hunter standing in front of the gates of Mordor maximized with all three lines) :-)
The graphics are gorgeous as always - /bow to designers :-)
One major thing that needs to be well done before this hit live - PvMP need to be balanced right - after this last round (beta5) I feel creeps are too weak. Please make our creeps OP so Etten remains a superb end game content. The feeling of happiness you get when you kill your kinnie on the other side is simply beautiful (evil grin).
Sorry, Crell, but I am talking about doing the battles at the intended group size. Sure, duo is an option for a solo space, but the fight is intended for solo, and the difficulty matches accordingly. The fact of the matter is that if you are duoing and one person goes AFK and the second person is actively engaging in the fight, then someone is still participating. It is no different than someone going AFK in a 3-man, 6-man, or 12-man, and the rest of the people picking up the slack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crell_1
Someone will have to actively participate if a good medal, and the associated jewellery, is desired.
-Bel
First thing to know is Big Changes Happened.
How individuals deals with change will be the mark of how they deal with The Big Changes.
There are 2 massive changes: Trait Trees and Big Battles.
Trait Trees
The sky is not falling but you are going to get a big WHOA when you first really look at them.
You will be altering some of how you currently play. This is a fact. You won't do what you do today the way you do it today. This is because of the way skills and abilities have been parsed/altered in the trees and some items have been removed.
You will be able to do the content old and new. If you can do the content now, you can do it when HD comes around but you will do it differently. Your class trees will shift your skill sets and you do have to make choices. You won't be able to Have It All and Have It Now. You can have access to all of it if you shift from one tree build to another.
Shifting to a new tree is not hard or difficult. You can prebuild quite a few and buy slots for more. To shift you will need to be Out Of Combat.
ex:
You can be in Healing Mode, shift to DSP mode, shift to Healing mode but the shifts have be done Out of Combat. Working in groups will be a bit more of challenge only in that those members who are trigger happy will place a group into combat before they can get a new build. This requires only an extra short pause and few clicks. Just like currently there are some things you cannot do in combat (eat food, scrolls) you will have to add in: Shift Trait Trees to the list.
Big Battles
These will be both interesting and confusing. It's an entirely new system. It has its own rewards (medals) and there are a number of versions to try out. The Big Battle Tutorial quest giver is located at the Boar Fountain (beta). I recommend everyone take the tutorial. The equipment is not hard to use but if you are trying to figure it out on-the-fly it's going to make your experience tilt some.
Overall
One thing to remember: much of what happened in Helms Deep was a retreat, not an advance. You can retreat from the challenge or learn to crank the ballista and fire the catapults. When you see the orcs coming over the walls in waves after waves... will you Run or will you Stand and Fight?
Do you really believe that's WAI though? At this point I do not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crell_1
Per +JWBQuote:
Originally Posted by Jeffor
Solo players are able to obtain platinum medals.
Thus: WAI
Ok, before we start, i did preorder the HD before the beta started. The preorder options were good to have now. Im not sure, i would still preordered had i known exact amount of changes.
Like - the landscape. Its great, and likable, and quests are good.
Big Battles - in current state, they are just a few playthrys, and you have seen all there is. Further repetition highly unlikely. But it contains quite a grind and advancement. It's possble, the devs will add some more things to BB post launch, like more group size variability...
Class changes. Ok, i can understand why it was done, and for a good reasons, but also there's good saying, where roads made from good reasons will lead... The 2:1 penalty and the way one earns these few extra points for trees means, each class will be same single three variation for most of the levelling. Some dipping into other trees will be "point-wise logical" only after you get max out of your primary selected tree, and thats start at about 60+ levels. Also, at least for guard, theres only so much logical way to varie the skills picked in tree, before it goes counterproductive.
My beta guardian is a way stronger that live one. Im also finding myself looking for skills i no more have access to, regardless of what tree i am picking. Buit at least its still almost the same. My LM is for now unrecognizable by me, unfortunately...
I can't argue with the PVMP sentiments. The freep changes have thrown things for a loop for sure. Hopefully we have time for a few more balance passes before launch day. I like my new guard in PVMP and I want creeps to be a fair fight for my new toys. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Srale
Class changes: as other posters already said, many classes get screwed over and lose what they loved but none come close to the treatment "revamped" Minstrel got. None of this is exagerration. There have been about 30 pgs of class feedback thread and currently 25pg long thread with mostly great posts, detailed dps comparison, bugs, suggestions, etc. Unfortunately very very little of this was heard, or applied.
It's gona be harsh but our minstrel dev neither likes the class nor does she have knowledge of class, creativity and desire to bring meaningful improvements.
Suffice to say, while most other classes were getting page long changes almost every beta build and interaction with dev on forum few times a week, we kept getting handful of changes (or 0) and no word from her since early October.
Things broken with minstrel are too many to count just couple examples:
- red line has roughly survivability that of a hunter (so near none) while doing fraction of hunter dps. Along with losing all HoTs, Free Ppls Anthem, Rally!, no sane person should let minstrel "dps" in a group. Don't even think of going solo in moors. To the best of my knowledge, dps of every other class has improved.
- last build we got corruption removal on toggle skill. That gives our class unique option of removing corruptions from ourselves or our fellows with Melody. :)
- last build we also noticed brand new legacy: Dissonance swap buff. It gives up to 9% (at r9) damage buff that lasts amazing 8s when changing into dissonance stance (old warspeech)
- for no reason at all, stances traded places: Resonance is our new healing stance and Melody our new Harmony stance but dev forgot to also change most stance effects on skills. There has been tons of feedback and bug reporting regarding this but rate of fixing it is super slow, if it comes at all.
- one of the biggest controversies were giving Rally! only to blue line, removing Anthem of Free ppls, no incentive to trait out-of-spec in redline. None of this was heard.
- the only truly useful line is blue line. On the other hand, some claim it's so OP and boring it just comes down to pushing 3 buttons.
- we kept getting some insane changes at the beginning of beta. Such as: piercing cry stun only in harmony and deep in yellow line. Ground targeting for Cry of the Wizards (don't even ask..). Call of the Second Age was skill given only when choosing BLUE spec until beta 2. Beta 3 it got switched to YELLOW line spec. Finally beta 4 our dev stopped joking with us and made it general skill so that dps line may also have dps skill :P
-even our minstrel diary is wrong. It claimed in redline we're gona be single target specialists (thankfully it never was like that in any beta build). But just shows there's no vision for minstrel. It's probably also the only line in the game with 0 new skills for new expac.
All we ask for is give us dev who CARES. :)
Platinum rewards for the side objectives in solo spaces? Yes
Platinum medal for the entire battle solo? Not happening. That can only be done in the group settings.
No I am talking about AFK character advancement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crell_1
Given that this is END GAME content I should highly hope it is possible to fail it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belnavar
Jeez guys this is supposed to be the pinnacle of the game and you are arguing over whether these are completable whilst afk, the very fact that that is a discussion shows you how ridiculous these things are
Of course it can. Don't see why not. The main battle, is simply a sum of the side objective medals minus any npc deaths/objects destroyed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isilmacil
Obviously, you'll need some practice/promotions to get to that point, but its quite doable.
That's pretty funny, because when the Orcs were coming over the wall and I was standing there ready to fight, all they did was run right past me....Quote:
Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien
No it certainly does not. There's a lot to test and only so many hours in the day. Again, I am not debating the AFK part atm rather the myth that you can significantly advance your characters AFK which is what some people are trying to contend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andthelion
I'm surprised no one else wants to take this on. I see it hard for Turbine to get HD released successfully (very few bugs) on Nov 18th.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peresbert
You are doing a great job on your own. Keep up the good work!Quote:
Originally Posted by Peresbert
Uhhh no, even if you get all of your side objectives platinum, the highest you could possibly get is maybe gold, or really high silver. +JWB mentioned to me that soloers cannot get a platinum medal for the overall battle. Whereas in the Deeping-Wall 12 man, you can get enough completed that its possible to get platinum, but it should be related to T2C challenge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crell_1
Anyway, its hard to describe Big Battles until you get to try them out.
I think the dismissal of things that players felt needed to be changed took a lot of wind out of the sails. People don't want to spend the effort to argue for changes anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peresbert
I think you've missed the point entirely. It's not that you cannot 'fail', it's that you need to broaden your concept of failure to a non-binary condition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andthelion
Tolkien spelled out exactly what happens in Helm's Deep. When it happens and who is there when it does. So you are never going to prevent the wall from blowing up, for example. But, there are rewards for making sure, by way of exmaple, that no NPCs die before it does. It is entirely possible to 'fail' to do this perfectly. It is also possible to do this "almost" perfectly and still receive some credit for it. But for someone trying for a platinum score on that objective, yes you most definitely failed.
There's a lot of feedback that they did listen to though. Many of us did continue our feedback and I did not find that effort to be wasted.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromiteSwiftpaw
The very fact you can stand there afk and not die shows you how pathetic they are, these are supposed to be EPIC BATTLES not picnics, I wanted it to feel chaotic, breathless, manic etc etc, stopping half way through to make a cup of tea to come back and find all is well is not epic, they are slow, clunky, dull and the most embarrasing excuse for end game I have ever encountered, this is the battle of the Hornburg, I dont wanna stand facing unselecetable orcs for 3 secs while they get there breath back after climbing a wall, I dont wanna stand around for 1/2 minute while the next wave jog along the field or sit there cranking a lever for 20 secs whilst the "hordes" of orcs ignore me and go on their merry way. On my Champ all I have to do I stand near the main npcs and constantly hit aoe skills whilst the screen is windowed and I watch Big bang theory, stopping every now and again to rebuild a wall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffor
It takes one keystroke and two mouse clicks to completely change specs, and it can be done anytime and anywhere as long as you are not in combat. People who realize that and take advantage of it, are going to find a LOT more varied play with their classes then those who stick with a single spec. So for example, if you are out on your own taking on normal landscape mobs, you won't need any survivability skills. Run into a signature, or elite, or some other difficult content, and a couple of seconds later you've switched to a spec that can handle it. So rather then cluttering up you toolbar with every possible skill you might ever want under any possible circumstance, you simply switch specs to match what you are doing at the time.
Just going to address this part and it sounds like the developer has their head screwed on right regarding the mini in this aspect. What has happened is that minstrels have managed to delude themselves thanks to previous poor changes that they should be unkillable death machines who can faceroll everything in their path because damnit skill is for other people. WRONG. We have light armour so yes, you get hit as a mini, you go down like a sack of potatos. Get rid of this godmode complex and realise that tougher people should be taking the hits and your heals and buffs are meant for them. Ironically this means you might have to group up in a MMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veria
As for DPS, again, minstels deluded into thinking they should be doing everything and all roles revolve around them. Minstrels are not a dps class, other classes are. We have our roles, they have theirs.
Thought it might be worth setting down a "casual" players thoughts on HD Beta.
Landscape: As stunning as ever. A lot to see and explore. Well up to the high standards that Turbine's world builders have demonstrated so well in the past.
Skill/Trait Trees: Some people hate them with a vehemence that is terrible to behold. From my perspective, they made little difference. I settled on a build, and when I fight things, evenetually they die, so little change there for my play style. If you care deeply about the nuances of all your current multitude of skills, then you may, or may not, disapprove. If you just go out and bash things, that still works just fine.
Epic Battles; Didn't really appeael to me. I will do what I need to do in the Epic Quest line, but apart from that I doubt I will ever bother with them. (That said, I don't do Skirmishes/Instances/Raids, so my opionion is probably of little import on this topic.)
I have worked about half way through the Epic Quest Line, and so far have found it up to scratch.
I haven't yet delved too deeply into crafting.
Overall, I am pretty happy with things. At least as happy as with previous expansions. How well it goes down overall will depend on how the community divides.
There is a lot that needs work in Helms Deep. Is the progress yes and sometimes its good. Not always.
The minstrel was my first main toon in this game. I loved it. I've always liked healing/support classes. And the minstrel offered a lot of flexibility.
Now that flexibility is much more difficult to achieve. Of the three classes I tested the minstrel is the class that I am the least happy with. It isn't just because of the trait trees, or out of spec penalties. It's the over all attitude that you have one job and it's all you can do. Healing is incredibly, incredibly potent but you have no dps with a healing set up. The dps set up doesn't seem powerful enough to sacrifice the ability to heal others for. Protector of Song- there seems to be some good there and if I play my minstrel after HD and still can't get the build I want then Protector is where I'll be (just another PoS minnie :P). The devs have thrown a few very small bones- they brought back Soliloquy of the Spirit (blue line only)and made Anthem of Composure accessible. But Anthem of the free peoples is gone. All three trait lines have passive "skills" with a primary purpose that seems just to suck up points.
The Hunter seems decently set up at the moment. Blue line inductions on the move are pretty darn nice. Your range is reduced but you can do some decent damage and it's a blast. I disagree with the comments about the class being dumbed down, found blue line more fun. Red line will be more work to master. You do a ton of damage but as on live now your mobility is severely reduced. However on the red line you have several roots available through pinning shot and low cut that allow you to root an enemy, get to range, and blast em with that panzerfaust....er um bow. Yellow line looks interesting but I didn't have enough time to test it appropriately. Agile Rejoinder is gone but I don't have too much of a problem with this, as heal it wasn't all that great. Hunter's still need work in the self heal survivability department.
The Champion was fun. I didn't spend as much time with it as the other two classes because honestly I didn't feel it was required. My champ was still a blender and still fun to play.
I only did the first epic battle...at first it was a little confusing. The tutorial helps a bit but sometimes it still feels hit and miss...But it was fun. Building a siege weapon and letting loose at a hord of orcs- oh that was fun. The basic battle wasn't difficult but some of the encounters were tough to locate at first. Walk around before starting the fight and check out as much as you can.
So to sum up- totally disapointed by the plans for the minstrel. I don't even want to play one right now but I'll give it a chance. Maybe something will shake loose. The hunter is going to be fun. Will it need some post expac work? Probably but it is fun. Champ is still fun. The Epic Battles have a lot of potential and can be a lot of fun.
As for the other classes and pvmp well other folks spent a lot more time there than I did. I think the devs will do well with Rohan scenery and the epic line.
Some people will be unhappy with the class changes and new tree system. As a burglar and hunter I am pretty pleased with where they are now....wasn't always the case but the devs have listened to player feedback and given us most of what we were asking for. I know lots of hunters are sad to see Agile Rejoinder go but I really don't miss it, mostly because I usually forget to use it or stuff is dead before I truly would have needed it. My favorite thing about the trees for burglars/hunters are that each build does have its own feel so it will be fun to play with the new stuff, learn new rotations and figure out the best build for a given situation. Least favorite is I do miss not having all of the available skills at my disposal but I can understand the need for change and there really was the problem of skill bloat. Plus now we can respec and swap builds out on the fly while out of combat, very good change and helps work around some of the skill limitations of the different builds. My truly least favorite thing will be having to redo my LI's yet again!
For me the good outweighs the bad in the expansion...I am more of a quest/story/Tolkien geek who really loves the look and feel of Western Rohan and really enjoy getting back to the true lore with Aragorn and company and Eomer, Théoden and Eowyn. This is my main focus when playing LOTRO, playing with friends, enjoying the world and exploring and in this the devs have really done a great job.
As far as big battles, there is a lot of info to take in and they will be confusing...combine that with the big class changes and I can see how people will feel lost. My plan and my advice for casual players like me is to enjoy the questing/epics/world first and work through the class changes as you play through Western Rohan. If you do feel like getting into the big battles, I recommend running them with friends instead of solo to start....everyone will be able to help each other learn the different mechanics and they are more fun when played through with others.
Tolkien spelled out the story behind the 3 erebor raids recently released as well, but you can fail those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapience
It's wasted when you've bugged the same thing for over a month. You send in the report with the benchmarks you set for the individual report, and nothing happens. Let's try this again next week, nothing. This continues to the point where I can go back to a 8-bit world if you just had everything working properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffor
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelar
err only if you see the mob before you start combat that is.
But anyway I could do all that before, run into a sig mob on my champ and I can switch to glory stance, switch LIs and gear and start using, aggressive exchange, hedge adamant etc etc. and didnt need to hide away while trying to retrait either.
You can get platinum in the solo battle just like you can get in a group battle. During Beta I got platinum medal on most quests in all 8 Battles which we get. This includes both side and main quests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isilmacil
This was announced already many months ago in the some of the official "20 Questions", and this is how it worked in Beta since the moment when the Battles were shown to the testers.
The only difference in the Platinum medals which a player can obtain solo or in group is the amount of points it contributes towards the main reward. It is possible to say that the Platinum medals from the raid are more valuable and you need just a few of those for a piece of jewelry, while you need 20 medals from the solo Battles. But the reward is the same - jewelry with class-specific set bonuses.
Not quite.Quote:
Originally Posted by nelar
First you need to figure out where the new skills for the spec you just switched to have been placed on your toolbars. As things stand now, they get plopped into the first free slots you have open.
If you are used to placing your skills in specific spots, get ready to play "hunt the skill" every time you switch from one spec to another.
There is still the possibility that this can be sorted out before launch, though.
You fail if you're dead.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Andthelion
maybe if you fail too many of the encounters the uruks zerg the wall and dine on the heroes and you for dessert.
Hmmmm, that...sounds more accurate than mine. I must have totally forgotten about that little tidbit. I just thought when I talked to JWB that soloers couldn't finish a battle with a Platinum medal. But now I remember that the amount of points is different. My apologies then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunasa
This goes along with what I think too. Classes have their roles, so play them. When I came into the MMO world Ranger archetypes were better off-tanks than DPS. You had Caster Glass Cannons for DPS. The changes started in RoI (played before that for a little bit) made the role line disappear and allowed for across the board soloing of almost everything. Generally speaking, there is too much DPS on live, and not enough support and specialty roles. Who remembers a time in when a Thief/Burglar had to stealth behind "enemy lines" to start things off?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkor
I'm afraid I have to agree with a lot of this. Felt like the dev was more of a "Manchurian candidate" out to break a class than do it some good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veria
I don't disagree the minstrel is over powered, especially when well played. But the dev took away the repeating rifles and gave the minstrel rocks to throw.
This is the single most disappointing thing so far that has ever happened to my favorite class since I started playing this game.
Here is one unhappy hunter - I feel this changes really dumb down our class. The DPS jumps up, which makes the DPS-junkies happy, but the versality is gone. No more tactics whilst travelling solo, just dumb DPS-them-down. Also, since you do and take more damage, fights are sped up. And this is WAI.
I probably will stay around because of the lore, but not because of the game-mechanics any longer (which I liked until now). Spending further money in the future? I doubt it.
-
Most players in Beta dislike the changes, this may or may not be the reason for not lifting the NDA on the beta forums. Decide for yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andthelion
Fighting side by side with a lvl 10 character who had the stats on his/her gear increased to level 95 and still trying to figure out how to play Lotro is hardly something I would call endgame ...
Yes they are loud, they are hectic and once you see that group of uruks slowly moving then charging into battle it does get the feeling right, but bottom line is they're not fun to play.
As my RK how he's enjoying the changes ... or any other hybrid class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonan
#82 posts in and so far 98% of the feedback is not positive ...
Regarding the class changes, we are losing some versatility, but we are gaining distinction. By this I mean that when you switch from one trait tree to another, it isn't simply a matter of a handful of bonuses and maybe a capstone, but rather a significant change to how you play the class. Several skills are gated by trait trees, and several others are found in the trait trees themselves, some easy to acquire at lower ranks (making them accessible to hybrids) and others much deeper in, requiring specialisation.
To highlight this distinction, Hunter is a very good example. I have played all three lines on live and all three on beta, and while some of the bonuses remain intact, the builds are far more distinct and defined in Helm's Deep, so if you get bored of standing on the spot nuking everything from afar, you can switch from Bowmaster to Huntsman, allowing you to induct on the move, and giving you access to several different skills, while restricting access to others. This freedom of movement also comes with the penalty of reduced range. If you get tired of that, try the Trapper of Foes line, which has seen the biggest changes. It has now become a very different style of play, where traps are more numerable and more useful, and crowd control is a big focus, with a Decoy skill to distract enemies as well. Damage takes a hit, but survivability increases -- and above and beyond all other things, it is very fun to play.
This forces you to try a different style of play, and you may find that you like one of the three main styles per class more than the others, or you might like to alternate between them all, or specifically cater a style and build to the content you are facing. The choices are there, and I would argue that there are more choices in Helm's Deep, and that those choices are much more meaningful. They do come with a cost, however, so if you want more survivability, for example, you have to sacrifice your damage output. If you want skill X, you may not be able to get skill Y. You can no longer have the toolbox fully open all the time, but I would argue that what is in the toolbox is now a lot more interesting.
Some will put all their points in their primary spec, and only the remaining in an off-spec. Others will diversify a bit more, perhaps to get Heartseeker and Rain of Thorns for some extra damage and crowd control, leaving quite a few possibilities for different styles of play. Beta players provided a lot of feedback that resulted in skills being added back to the main pool, switched or changed as spec bonuses, and moved around on the trees to make some more desirable ones easier to access (For example, I and others argued for the Captain Marks skills to be moved from tier 3 to tier 2, and RockX did this).
An MMO is a work in progress, however, and there are certainly bugs to iron out, and certain things that both we and the devs wanted that will not make it in time for launch. There will undoubtedly be many hotfixes, patches, and updates to further refine and improve the class experience, and part of that will be based on our feedback in beta and on live. Think back to previous updates, like Mounted Combat, and how they have changed and improved from their initial concept.
All of the above said, I would caution players from relying too heavily on other people's comments to see whether or not they'll like the changes. Someone might hate it, and you might love it, or vice-versa. It reminds me of the many times I've seen movie reviews in newspapers, and more often than not a certain reviewer will slate films I end up loving, and applaud films I find uninteresting. Try them out for yourself, and give them a fair chance. Different doesn't necessarily mean good or bad. Until launch day, consider checking out the class change summaries to better familiarise yourself with some of the changes (though bear in mind some things may change before the 18th).
-Bel
Perhaps some other things happened during these changes? Like idk, new class - RK, which can both dps or heal top notch? Support classes becoming dpsers or healers? Groups prefering cappy over mini for many instances? Solo content that requires dps but doesn't allow to heal NPCs like in upcoming Big Battles?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkor
So have fun being the only class pigeon holed into one role while every other can fill at least two. Good luck telling blue champs they cannot tank or every other class they cannot be dps. Use your brain power. When you give up heals, you have to gain SOMETHING in return and that should be competetive dps while still having weak armor.
As for me, i'm already kinda set to go back to another deluded MMO, where healing classes have a choice: either healing power or fantastic dps and no one's rolling their eyes. You're probably gona say Tolkien was deluded too since minis in his world did great things against their foes with power of their voice. Tom Bombadil is first that comes to mind but there's more.
But yes, keep living in the bubble and like its 2007.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesm429
Ok just replying based on this little tidbit of mis-information.
Most of the players who left valued feedback and the class threads were listened to and tons of changes were made.
Most of the players who posted rage quit threads in beta were told that the changes were coming and were asked to offer feedback
We were told the trees were coming and were not going to be removed. We were NEVER told Nothing is changing. Many many things were changed based on player feedback from the class threads.
Now for my personal views.
1. Quest and landscape. Awesome
2. Skill trees... Most people will be in shock but I believe that once they toy around with them they will enjoy them
3. Epic Battles.. I feel still needs a bit of polishing but can see how at first they are frustrating but once you start expanding the role within Epic Battles they become a challenge and can be quite fun.
I think this is an excellent summary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belnavar
But this is also the reason that, for those who haven't preordered, I would say to them still to not pre-order at all simply because the changes are too sweeping and it may end up being a large waste of money for you. If you like the changes after playing them, then by all means, buy the expansion pack.
BTW, I know the changes are coming whether you buy it or not, but why buy something you do not like, right? :)
I am wondering why they have spent the last couple of years making this into a 'solo-friendly' game, and are now pushing our classes into more grouping roles without developing grouping content? Or am I completely off here? *confused*
Sorry - but I've hated the changes to class skills since I saw them, tried to petition and commented to have things changed and there was a resounding "no" since I've seen them until now.
Sure... rosy specs ppl will tell you that MANY changes have been made, but it's really not worth a thing if you hate the principle of the system. No changing gear or stance in combat (which makes a lot of older content difficult) and issues with losing skills that allowed you to adapt in group situations (or even solo if you made a bad pull).
BB are ok... took me a long time to get used to them, and they are novel - but the random loot system is a big fat lose for me, given how loot is already rare and random and frankly I don't find spinning the wheel of fortune enjoyable.
I'd say that the usual suspects will continue to tell you that everything is fine, you'll love it. People like myself will not like it and will stop playing as a result.
Which ever way you fall, I wish you luck and success in the future.
I wouldnt call it endgame either but thats exactly what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombielord
AS for the Loud and hectic I would respectfully disagree there, standing around waiting for orcs to "load" after they get to the top of the wall before they do anything is not hectic, waiting for 1/2 minute while a group of tiny, clones move towards me in a perfect matrix is not hectic.
I dunno maybe I am being to harsh but the picture I have in my head when I read Tolkiens version of HD, is Thunder cracks and lightning flashes, chaos, disorganisation, panic, constant, relentless orcs, breathlesness , desperation, followed by Valour, courage, Relief, exhaustion. I got none of that I am sad to say, like I said before it was slow, clunky, predictable, and way way to easy, for me they dont feel epic in the slightest, a complete wet lettuce that will turn into a dire grind after playing through each battle once.
During BETA I had to force myself to replay them just for testing purposes, I found no enjoyment in them and was glad when they were taken down so I didnt feel obligated to join in the testing anymore, for anyone who got bored quickly with Hytbold or Wildermore I cant see how these will appeal to you at all.
What choices? What different playstyle?Quote:
Originally Posted by Belnavar
Traiting outside the trees and trying to go hybrid (and get at least a tiny bit of diversity back) costs twice as many points and considering how few points my characters had even at 85 we're caught in the tree we picked.
If I want a massive change to my playing-style I play another class. You can do this already with the current system. But limiting my choices (at a time, at least until I leave combat-mode) on one class and labeling this 'distinction' are quite rosy sunglasses (sorry if this picture doesn't translate well - no native speaker). I am not able to play the class I learned to love anymore, period. Any workaround is just that - a way to experience the lore I also love someway further down the road.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belnavar
I guess you don't play a mini, because little has been done to the mini class..Quote:
Originally Posted by kickman77
Can someone tell me 2 things?
Did they take off dazes and stuns from LM's? I don't see any daze/stun mentions?
Is there anything to actually cc HD(Big battles)? I love my lm and i want to be able to still do lots of things (healing/dpsing/ccing, ofc with the tree traits we can't do all that at the same level i think, but anyway) but cc was the reason i chose a loremaster to lvl and play endgame content.
I found this insulting and ignorant. We are not asking for godmode, we are asking for "SUFFICIENT DPS FOR THE DEDICATED TREE FOR DPS" while having MINIMUM SURVIVABILITY. Since now EVERY SINGLE CLASS HAS A DPS TREE, good luck telling all other classes such as captains, guardians, lore-masters, burglars, and wardens NOT TO DPS since it's not their """"MAIN-ROLE""" to DPS too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkor
In BB, your class skills are really not used at all, sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrauserJoestar
As many have said before:
Class changes
Interesting and unique. It needs a lot of patience to get used to all of the existing classes. Forget what you played for over 5 years now. They are gone and different. Some for the good and (in my personal view) many for the bad. But this is my POV. The best thing the class revamps will bring are the new battle animations. These are really cool. But in the end even the best and coolest animation will not help you if the essential skills are no longer at your disposal. The probably worst thing I have to mention is that the nonsense skills like "Boast" are still allowed to exist when the intention was to free up skill bars from unuseful skills.
Btw. Say goodbye to many Legacies and LIs you have farmed for. Due to Skill tree locks and new skills the existing LIs will mostly be irrelevant.
In the end. give them a chance and decide for yourself if you want to play your character in the future and can live with the severe changes.
Big Battles and HD
The intention was to invent sth. new and cool. They are cool on the paper but I did not enjoy them since they are simply overwhelming and very confusing. Are Endgame raiding kins going to be happy? No, probably not. It is something very different than Raids, Instances and Skirmishes, but if you want to compare Big Battles, Skirmishes are the most close relavites - scripted and designed. Personally, I won't invest much time in them - probably play once in a while when I am bored.
Again, these are my opinions and what I could draw as a conclusion for my future gameplay.
This is incorrect. It's possible to get an overall Platinum medal in the solo battles. It's just difficult, which is something that hasn't really been seen with solo content in the past. I find it a refreshing change, but YMMV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isilmacil
I'll second the advice about the tutorials. There are a lot of totally new mechanics to get used to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peresbert
Oh, really? You have access to their bug tracking software?Quote:
The bug reports are higher than I have ever seen them in a successful BETA at this point before launch that I have participated in before (talking mostly about other games).
Helm's Deep is nowhere near as buggy as Riders of Rohan was this close to release. Fact.
Exactly. All of the feedback is listened to. Listening to feedback does not mean "do what I say". The beta testers using that definition of feedback have been disappointed. The rest of us have been pretty well satisfied.Quote:
Originally Posted by kickman77
People who play a 'Hybrid' class will be in for a shock. You can play This way OR That way - pretty much doing This AND That has been done away with. If STrait Tree points are changed then it would be easier to do....as it stands now all classes are locked into one of three cookie-cutter builds.
There isnt any cc, nor tanking nor healing in the big battles, its all dps and the 3 roles that you do. I am sure if you really wanted to you could do come cc, but there is really no need at all and you will quickly just go full dps to get them done quicker.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrauserJoestar
That's very sad to hear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesm429
Regardless, do LM's still have Blinding flash/Bane Flare or are they gone? Can anyone tell me?