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I am not understanding this killstreak measurement for Vanguard. How is it measured, because it seems virtually impossible to gain a kill. I can never even start a kill streak on Helm's Dike, and on the other instances, it seems random when or if the killstreak bar decides to even start filling. Am I missing something here?
It may be because your character automatically goes out of combat very quickly. This was somewhat annoying on my champ where certain skills require you to be in combat.
So basically another bug in the system, because I have definitely noticed that. As soon as I kill an enemy, I go right out of combat. I don't stay in combat, even if I switch to another enemy and start attacking him. it goes OOC between the kill of the first enemy and the targeting of the next enemy. That's causing a lot of problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shumzuda
Could it be that they are also not counting kills of the enemy is killed by an npc, even if you did some damage to it? If so, that's a major problem, because the majority of the enemies are killed by the NPCs, and you only get the kill if you happen to time it just right.
Devs, please fix this!
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzariahYisrael
Killstreaks require you to deliver the killing blow. That's working as intended. Get in the mix, AoE if you can, and move through targets that are already weakened. Each killing blow you deliver will give you 1 killstreak, with promotions involved in increasing the chance to earn a bonus pip. They do not degrade on being out of combat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwbarry
1. I know that's not true because there were plenty of times that I delivered the killing blow, but it did NOT tick the killstreak up.
2. I am a hunter, hence ranged DPS. we don't get "in the mix" and our only AoE, at least on Bowmaster Spec, is Rain of Arrows. Even if I got "in the mix" I only have one or two CQC skills.
3. So basically, it's all chalked up to straight luck whether you get the kill or not, because the problem lies in the fact the the odds of you getting the killing blow vs the 15-20 npcs that are attacking said enemy are slim to none. None in fact with Helm's Dike.
If what you say is true, than the vanguard is the worst possible role you could spec into, since using the skills that require the killstreak, are all based on luck.
You need to have put 1 promotion point into one of the following five traits as well, in order to get the effect that grants the pips (probably not communicated as well as we could on this part) :Quote:
Originally Posted by AzariahYisrael
Killstreak Max
Killstreak Skill Strength
Killstreak Skill Duration
Killstreak Skill Target Count
Killstreak Skill Cooldown
ah. now that certainly would explain why I was not getting any killstreak pips in Helm's Dike. I just now got those skills, well after doing helm's dike a few times. I will have to confirm if I am getting pips in Helm's Dike.Quote:
Originally Posted by jwbarry
Still, if it is required that I get the Killing Blow, then something needs to change, because when you have 10 guys all going after the 1 guy you are aiming at and trying to kill, the odds are not in your favour.
Also, when watching my combat log, I know there were MANY times when I know I got the killing blow, but I did NOT get a pip in my killstreak.
This is terribly frustrating on champ indeed. Not only do we have to run after mobs to hit them, we also get out of combat continuously, which occasionally makes fervour pips disappear right before you want to use skills and you end up with not enough pips. Additionally, it almost completely locks us out of Fury of Blades, our strongest AoE skill, which requires us to be in combat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shumzuda
JWB, can't it be so that, like in the rest of the game content over the past 6 and a half years, we are in a combat state when we are, basically, in combat? As soon as I have hit an enemy, I'd like to remain in the combat state until that enemy is dead.
I think if this is how it works then what's the point of being a vanguard. Landing the final blow on mobs that are being struck seemingly from 3-4 rohirrim simultaneously seems very random. Especially as I can't tell the rohirrim to stop stealing my kills. sounds like vanguard is only useful in side quests where getting kills is a real possibility. I remember though from the beta if I do get at least half way or so in the tree I did get more pips still I only got to use the skills once or twice per EB and don't remember them being a huge game changer. I suspect that vanguard will only be a factor with a nearly full tree.
I am glad I am not the only one who feels this way. As it currently stands, the Vanguard is the most useless of the three just based on those facts alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by gelleg
I learned very early Vanguard was pointless. Every person in a raid being Engineer speaks volumes too. My burglar certainly can't do any of those recommended things. Ranged AOE DPS seems to be all that's needed, certainly not tanks.
I agree with everything posted above. It was this way in BETA too. It is incredibly hard to actually gain a killstreak at the moment. I want to play the vanguard, it seems like it would be fun if better executed. Currently, the NPCs take all the killing blows, and you play a game of - "Wow! I managed a killing blow!" after trying for 10 minutes. Especially on a Warden, which is useless in combat during Big Battles IMO - as 90% of the time a builder will not fire off at all and using masteries results in "You must be in combat"
Since we're using an First person Shooter mechanic (Killstreaks) why not borrow "Assists" too?
Like this:
Killing Blow = Pip
Assist (35-40% damage was dealt by you) = 1/2 Pip
Assist Counted as Kill (75%+ of the damage dealt by you) = pip
I have spec'd vanguard on my Guardian this is a huge waste of time. I have spent 25 points into the vanguard line and have 6 points unspent and have YET to start a kill streak! I just recently completed a Deeping-Coomb Battle as a Duo with the side quest/objective Defilers in the Water. In which I soloed all the defilers with no participation from my partner or any NPC, every KB was my own. I recieved ZERO advancement towards my killstreak. If this is another one of those chance for a chance to have a possibility to have a chance ideas, its for the birds.Quote:
Originally Posted by jwbarry
I'm sorry traiting to click on a pile of sticks, or using a trait tree to talk to NPC's is not a good idea for "END GAME CONTENT". Its in combat, and its just not delivered in this vanguard design it needs to be more defined like BOTH of the other trait lines.
IE you don't have a build speed "chance" or a heal potency "chance". They are FIXED and defined.
Why is the vanguard different?
Lets look at why Big Battles are generally not well suited for a grouping / raiding Guardian, or any other grouping / raiding tank class. In the Guardian gameplay intro to the class it says "in fellowships a guardians forces his enemies to attack himself so his more fragile allies will not be harmed by the foes". The simple fact that a Guardians major AOE taunt/threat skills are rendered useless by not being able to HOLD agro on mobs with or without NPC's attacking the same mobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvalien
Now lets break down the general mindset behind someone who plays a guard or a tank MAIN ( tank in HD being guard, warden, blue champ, or yellow captain). They generally are the ones to set the pace of the fight, Control when and where the fight happens. They are the focus of most of the groups heals, buffs, and debuffs on the mobs that they are fighting, and DPS are focusing on their targets or one of the targets that they are agroing. In short the Tank IS and generally LIKES to be the CENTER of attention in a BATTLE it is their JOB. But this job is rendered impotent in Big Battles for reasons stated above.
The big battle trait line has further degraded our toons uniqueness down to 3 rolls from our once 9 classes. 2 of those roles as previously stated are picking up sticks and talking to NPC's and the only one remotely close to playing our class roll vanguard is so broken and convoluted that even JWBarry hasn't been able to explain it.
Why don't you just pre assign the roles to the classes that they would be best suited for IE
Officers
RK, Mini, Cappy ~ reason ~ healers can heal soldiers and banners with easy access to commanders
Vanguard
Champ, Hunter, LM ~ reason ~ good DPS lots of AOE and all around destruction
Engineer
Guard, Warden, Burg ~ reason ~ you aren't good for anything else so go build something
Why aren't the class rolls balanced?
Shame really, all any of us want to do is slay as many as possible - perhaps a small competition a fellowship can have, like Gimli and Legolas.
Dps is pretty much not needed in battles. Even in the twelve man, you can easily have one class dpsing and the other 11 players shooting catapults, healing, pushing down ladders. If you wanted to, you could do it without anyone dpsing (aside from some of the side quests). Has anyone mentioned how boring it is to sit there and fire a catapult/ballista, drop rocks, or cut grapplinghooks for the entire raid. Basically you click once every 5 seconds for 45 minutes, interrupted every 15 minutes or so by a side quest which can actually be pretty fun, but only last for a few minutes.
The worst thing I have encountered though is the fact that until mobs have picked who they are going to attack, they constantly wipe any and all effects put on them, as well as refusing to enter combat. This means that if i'm a Fire Runekeeper trying to do the Deeping-Coomb, I can't actually dps until they pick an npc and start attacking him, by which point they are already dead. Of course part of that problem is the ridiculous npc dps in the solo version, but it's still disappointing to be almost completely unable to build attunement unless I heal (and even then it's difficult).
For the record, if any dps was actually required for any of the big battles, the Runekeeper would be just as capable (if not better) at dpsing as the Champion, Hunter, or Loremaster.
;) Yes Fasin your ability to DPS is well known by me. However most RKs do not play on your level. Nor would be able to overcome the previously mentioned (by you) obstacles. Their services would be better served in the capacity that I have listed in my previous post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasin1
As a follow up to my previous statement about class balance. This does not mean make every class do everything just allow us to do our jobs. Let the Tanks "Tank" let the DPS "DPS" let the Support "Support" and the Healers "Heal".
This is the basic backbone class structure for almost every MMO that I can think of.
Why is this being reinvented this late in the ball game?
What's needed here is the ability to, if the players want, to set the EB npc's to "high-survivability/tank mode/low dps" and then the classes that need to can build dps and everyone else who wants can get in on the orc killing if they want and not have the npc's wipe out the mobs prematurely due to high npc-dps.
This is exactly why I've quit lotro for the forseeable future. I've mained a tank Warden since basically forever, and I love the play style. But in the endgame, there is no use for me. Side quests to defend critical npcs? Sounds like the job for a tank! Let me go stand in the middle of the culvert and draw the orcs before they can get to the engineers- oh. Just run past me. Ok. And with the fact that a Warden, even max specced for dps cannot even come CLOSE to what any dps class can do, there's no point to even trying in the challenges. Hell, for comparison, I went and played Helm's Dike on 4 of my characters. Warden, then a 79 Hunter, 49 LM, 25 RK. Despite the fact that my warden has max traits, max specialization points, very high quality (Full blue set, SA weapons), I could barely managed silvers on most of the challenges. On my other 3, with terrible virtues, few spec points, very few deeds completed...I was rolling in golds and platinums. It was ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvalien
Yeah, basically a 6-man or raid full of engineers is all you need to finish the battles. 2 or 3 guys to shoot stuff ranged, and everyone else just blasts stuff with siege engines or repairs whatever the enemy is trying to break until the NPCs finish them off.
The support line isn't terrible to have one or two so they can have the great job or being bossy :D
Basically the roles appear to be as follows:
Engineer - Necessary
Officer - Not Necessary but helpful
Vanguard - Useless
Surely all 3 roles should be equally viable?
If only the buffs we get for killing enemies (empowerment and fortification and such) would effect nearby troops as well as ourselves then I could see Vanguard actually being a bit useful but as it is atm I agree it's totally worthless even though as an LM in the red tree I could build killstreaks like crazy with all my aoe.
I don't understand why vanguard even exists.
The tutorial "quest" basically emphasizes that the battle is too large for one person to make a difference in direct combat. Instead we're supposed to focus on the larger strategy and make leadership decisions on the battle as a whole.
The vanguard role completely contradicts what the BB are supposed to represent and how they were developed to be played.
All I can guess it that they're shoehorning a 3rd tree like they did with hunters so everything has 3 lines to pick from when only 2 are needed because the number 3 is all important.
At best it's something you spec into when you have to do a side quest that involves direct fighting and little to no npc help. Except every reasonable person isn't going to spend 100MC to unlock a useless third spec, especially when you have more useful skills with the engineer traps and barricades etc.
Agreed, vanguard should be about you jumping into a weak spot in the line to bolster the npc's there, like increasing the effect of dps/haste commands or putting out an aoe dmg buff that gets stronger the more killing you do. It's not that you're killing all the enemies, it's that your presence in the fight brings out more from the npc's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubbyss
@ jwbarry..it's more than simply dropping combat after an npc dies. This is what happens to me every time: I autoattack with my bow on an npc coming up the ramp to get in combat, a split second later i'm back out of combat. There's no way to stay in combat currently, killing an npc or not.
Vanguard is completely broken because of this, since I can't hit skills like fury of blades during big battles. Not to mention i'm never being hit so born for combat never can be used either. Champions, especially deadly storm ones, THRIVE off of being in combat. We lose fervour pips out of combat. That's not to mention the annoyance of having a queued aoe skill cancel when the mob i'm targeting dies.
I sincerely hope it's some sort of bug and will be fixed soon, because I'd love vanguard to death if I could reliably get killing blows and fire off my killstreaks. Right now, my champ's better off repairing banners and telling officers to stop being so wimpy.
Except that's exactly what the Officer Role does. The idea for Vanguard was that you get to be a hero on the wall like Aragorn, Gimli, or Legolas - filling the gap with your amazing skill at killing things. Except that in practice, it sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by XoEnder
It's near impossible to get a kill streak, and even when you do, there's only ever 4-5 mobs at a time in most cases, so by the time you get a trigger you're either almost out of mobs to use it on, or you're out of combat to be able to use your class skills. Then, even if you do get a rare chance to actually get a trigger, the effect (unless you have 120 points traited) is so godawful minimal that there's basically no difference between being vanguard and not being traited at all.
Oddly enough, if you spec Vanguard prior to hitting 95, I have had the UI for it appear after a level up on the landscape, and i can generate killstreak points while not even in a Big Battle.
I'm also a Vanguard spec'd guardian and I don't have a problem with generating killstreak pips in yellow line.
While we can't "tank" the old fashioned way, force taunts will pull mobs off whatever their objects were for a pretty significant amount of time. Groups with a yellow or blue line guard can get a guaranteed platinum reward for the statue event in Helm's Dike with decent DPS because of force taunts alone.
I will say though that is is still difficult to generate pips because the mobs only come in as groups of 1-3 mobs, which get slaughtered by the npc's before we realyl get a chance to get attacks off. Making it slightly easier to build pips would definitely make vanguard much more useful, although I would not say that its a total waste to spec into vanguard for now.
That's a good idea, because currently it seems the only real buff that vanguards give is when they die, and you know how many times I've died in the HD instances so far?.....0. They are EXCEEDINGLY easy, unless you go solo, and it becomes so unbalanced and difficult that you fail the mission before you even die.Quote:
Originally Posted by XoEnder
It's not just the difficulty of gaining killstreak pips. It's the whole point of it.
Many of the stances you can activate are about reflecting damage or gaining bonuses when you are attacked.
Hello? Enemies don't usually attack players during battles!
Hero defeat buffs? I have died like 5 times in battles, and 4 of them were because the wall exploded and I was standing there.
And the skills you can use by spending killstreak points are useless!
+5% damage for 5 or 10 seconds. That means, if you usually hit for 2000, then you will hit for 2100 for 5 seconds. Why bothering to even hit the skill button when your ally NPC soldiers regularly hit for 3000 each, and there is like 10 of them around.
Or 5000 damage on 5 targets. Again, it is not noticeable at all given the usual health bar sizes and the damage dealt by all the surrounding soldiers.
On the other hand, Engineer's tripwire is one hundred times more useful because it stops up to 17 targets on their tracks (reducing their damage output to 0 for that time), at the same time as increasing the chance for getting hit with crits. That is superuseful when there are other 10 guys hitting that target! And the saddest part is that it is just one skill in the whole engineer's skillset.
To start becoming useful, a Vanguard should be at the very least as effective as a permanent walking tripwire. A magnet for enemies, with a high damage output, high survivavility, that can go where the enemy is striking hardest or where the soldiers are coming down and the front is weakened. Turn some of the vanguard traits into passives that add additional targets and damage output and threat component to all classes attack skills. Let a burglar trait deep into that trait or traits so that their Subtle Stab hits for 15000 to 8 targets when critting, consuming killstreaks. Consider it like some variation of the Inspiration buff that you can gain by traiting deep into Vanguard.