@Vastin - Endgame Beorning Heals Need a Nerf

Hello Lotro Team,

I hope that you will take a moment to hear my thoughts on the state of the Beorning class in Raids.

The Beorning heal-line is far too powerful at the current time, outclassing all other healers by a long-shot.

The beorning healers that I raid with have recently begun to approach 40k HPS single-target, and 150k AoE HPS. The largest source of damage in the Anvil T3 is boss 2 while Ingor is alive. That fight stabilizes at around 25k TPS, meaning a beorning is now able to single-heal the main-tank. It has obfuscated the usefulness of a minstrel, who are weak healers in comparison. Many kinships can already one-shot every boss on T3 thanks to Beorning heals, while it takes more attempts when there are no beorning healers present.

The class currently is sure fun to play, but it takes absolutely no skill for how powerful it is. This is in stark contrast to healing on a RK or Minstrel which require practice, timing, and skill.

I am not suggesting a large nerf, but some aspects of the Beorning heals should be looked at again. Maybe nerf it back to 20-25k HPS instead of 30-35k HPS. There is little incentive to bring in other healers if two Beornings are available.

I personally play a Beorning healer, and I believe that we are too powerful at this time. That is why I am asking you to consider a nerf of the Beorning heals. I would love to at least hear your feedback!

Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Iluvata

Hello Lotro Team,

I hope that you will take a moment to hear my thoughts on the state of the Beorning class in Raids.

The Beorning heal-line is far too powerful at the current time, outclassing all other healers by a long-shot.

The beorning healers that I raid with have recently begun to approach 40k HPS single-target, and 150k AoE HPS. The largest source of damage in the Anvil T3 is boss 2 while Ingor is alive. That fight stabilizes at around 25k TPS, meaning a beorning is now able to single-heal the main-tank. It has obfuscated the usefulness of a minstrel, who are weak healers in comparison. Many kinships can already one-shot every boss on T3 thanks to Beorning heals, while it takes more attempts when there are no beorning healers present.

The class currently is sure fun to play, but it takes absolutely no skill for how powerful it is. This is in stark contrast to healing on a RK or Minstrel which require practice, timing, and skill.

I am not suggesting a large nerf, but some aspects of the Beorning heals should be looked at again. Maybe nerf it back to 20-25k HPS instead of 30-35k HPS. There is little incentive to bring in other healers if two Beornings are available.

I personally play a Beorning healer, and I believe that we are too powerful at this time. That is why I am asking you to consider a nerf of the Beorning heals. I would love to at least hear your feedback!

Thank you!

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I think heal in general is to strong, from what i have seen Minis are also able to heal insane numbers, but i agree with you that beo heal is very easy to play (in his basic healing role).

Beos will never replace minis.
Be happy about their numbers which allows minis go yellow again. Perfect combo since the "Our Fates Entwined" nerf.

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Originally Posted by Gertes

I think heal in general is to strong, from what i have seen Minis are also able to heal insane numbers, but i agree with you that beo heal is very easy to play (in his basic healing role).

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Minstrel has its limited moments where it can nearly single target outheal even two bears but its situational and requires a coordinated effort. Also it is a cool down driven moment. Which means its not much more than an emergency option.


Outside of Minstrel Anthem buffs, the Minstrel takes second place to the Beorning heals.

Dont minstrels get other stuff like buffs and morale bubbles plus emergency skills etc?

The minstrel healing was made more complex than the old bolster spam days, at peoples request. Is everyone happy with the way it turned out? probably not.

Does the Beorning need to be more complex, when it is stated above its a fun class to play? NO.

The Beorning heals fine as it is and does little else. The debuffs arent worth much.
The Minstrel heals fine as it is and has some nice buffs/bubbles etc.

Both are working fine? ok then move on nothing to see here!

"Many kinships can already one-shot every boss on T3 thanks to Beorning heals"

"Inconceivable!" - "I don't think that means, what you think it means .."

"One-shot!" - "I don't think that means, what you think it means ..

Not sure how a healer allows a raid to "one-shot" any boss with multi-million hp. I can't see 12 characters each taking one shot at a boss killing the T3 boss. I can see that AoE healing overkill can help a raid to get higher dps and take a T3 boss down quicker but "one-shot"? LOL.

Minstrel bubbles, damage reductions, and emergency skills are the only way mini's stay somewhat viable against a beorning healer. But these do not make up for having half the HPS as a top-end Bear. Bears can instantly full-heal everyone in the raid up after a Boss 1 Flop, Elder Drake AOE attack, a blue or purple eye that hits the group, and more. Mini's and RKs can't or have to consume a valuable CD to do so. Moveover, as I referenced, a Bear can outheal the highest amount of TPS by nearly 15K HPS, while even a great minstrel cannot.

@Happychappy, The beorning does need to either be made more complex or less powerful. It is unfair that average players are able to become Raid Gods because they Valar'd a mega-Bear. Some classes are easier to play than others, but all classes require skill to be great at them. The beorning requires no skill, as you rotate through like 4 skills for 150k AOE HPS. I do not heal often, but even I can hit 25k HPS-ST on Bear while wearing unslotted gear and heal jewellery.

The debuffs are also worth a lot, so I'm not sure what you are saying. Armour Crush alone is an absolutely massive DPS increase.

Minstrels and beornings are both viable healers, but it is so unbalanced in favor of the beorning that every other healer has started to power-level or Valar Beornings because they are WAY to OP at the moment. Beorning heals are overscaled for the amount of damage enemy mobs put out.

Fine, instead of the word "nerf", lets start using "re-scale" or "re-balance".

@JERH, by one-shot, I am referring to the fact that you can clear each boss in one attempt because the HPS are so massive that no one in your raid is even at risk of dying. I am not referring to anyone in the raid killing the boss in 1 hit.




Also, no need to be hurtful and tell me I have no skill or I suck. I didn't come into this forums attacking anyone and I would request to be treated in kind as well. I do not need to prove my skill to you, but I can affirm that I am a good player and have completed the Raid on T3 numerous times.

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

Dont minstrels get other stuff like buffs and morale bubbles plus emergency skills etc?

The minstrel healing was made more complex than the old bolster spam days, at peoples request. Is everyone happy with the way it turned out? probably not.

Does the Beorning need to be more complex, when it is stated above its a fun class to play? NO.

The Beorning heals fine as it is and does little else. The debuffs arent worth much.
The Minstrel heals fine as it is and has some nice buffs/bubbles etc.

Both are working fine? ok then move on nothing to see here!

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If you seriously think that Beos have little else except for heals than you need to learn the class

Beos have by far the most support of all healing classes

Honestly it would be good if the Armour crush would be moved to the blue trait set, so that healing bears wouldn't have such an OP support and be more in line with Minis (RKs still have pretty much no offensive support) and that there was a reason to take a tanking bear as a boss tank. Currently tanking bears offer nothing over a cappy because a healing bear has all the support anyway

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Originally Posted by Chris91

Honestly it would be good if the Armour crush would be moved to the blue trait set, so that healing bears wouldn't have such an OP support and be more in line with Minis (RKs still have pretty much no offensive support)

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That is a very good point about armour crush being locked to blue line. I think changes like this could help balance a lot of classes. It would help balance the roles a bit, but something should still be done about the absurd nearly-40k ST-HPS lol :p

This has to be an oversight of scaling, given that the highest damage TPS in the T3 raid is less than 30k. In order to outheal that much TPS, you need either two mini's added together, or just one Beorning.

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

Dont minstrels get other stuff like buffs and morale bubbles plus emergency skills etc?

The minstrel healing was made more complex than the old bolster spam days, at peoples request. Is everyone happy with the way it turned out? probably not.

Does the Beorning need to be more complex, when it is stated above its a fun class to play? NO.

The Beorning heals fine as it is and does little else. The debuffs arent worth much.
The Minstrel heals fine as it is and has some nice buffs/bubbles etc.

Both are working fine? ok then move on nothing to see here!

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Every raid Minstrel knows their heals are crit reliant. The base heals do come along with Anthem buffs and in tandem off some utlility to a raid group. Morale bubbles are nice and better than before but no Minstrel imo should rely on these as a save all clutch choice. At best the bubbles offers a extra second or two for saving grace.


Minstrel healing wasn't made more complex. In fact, it is easier today than the last several releases. Removing Bolster spam just rooted out the ezpzy Minstrels and gave them a choice. To remain engaged or to choose another class.


Beorning aoe heals are out of line compared to other healing classes. The fact some of the healing skills are raid wide instead of fellowship wide is partly the reason this is true. Lol Beorning brings a bunch to the table concerning buffs and debuffs.

Yes, both are working fine. It's just one is working better than the others when it comes to raid group survival.

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Originally Posted by sapienze

Every raid Minstrel knows their heals are crit reliant. The base heals do come along with Anthem buffs and in tandem off some utlility to a raid group. Morale bubbles are nice and better than before but no Minstrel imo should rely on these as a save all clutch choice. At best the bubbles offers a extra second or two for saving grace.


Minstrel healing wasn't made more complex. In fact, it is easier today than the last several releases. Removing Bolster spam just rooted out the ezpzy Minstrels and gave them a choice. To remain engaged or to choose another class.


Beorning aoe heals are out of line compared to other healing classes. The fact some of the healing skills are raid wide instead of fellowship wide is partly the reason this is true. Lol Beorning brings a bunch to the table concerning buffs and debuffs.

Yes, both are working fine. It's just one is working better than the others when it comes to raid group survival.

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Yes i do agree on the raid wide healing of certain Beorning skills. But that is an old topic and perhaps should be fixed.

Minstrel healing was at its easiest when it was just bolster spam and nothing else was needed because the healing was so high. How is what we have now easier than just hitting one button?



Most of the debuffs dont actually do anywhere near the values they say incase you hadnt noticed. Armour crush is good i agree and could be a Blue or even red specialisation trait. What "bunch" of debuffs/buffs are you referring to particularily?
But Minstrels have their own buffs and debuffs which are nice also. They have morale bubbles and Emergency skills.

The Bear has more burst AoE healing but on longer cooldowns, nice to heal a group up but then its gone on Cooldown.

Certain set items can boost a Beornings healing but that doesnt mean the Beorning should be nerfed.

A RK can debuff a mob in healing if it wanted to.

This all sounds like the Dps and Tanks in this game needs nerfing down then Armour crush would be nerfed anyway lol. But the healing is fine, except for it being raid wide and not FS only, which i also agreed on long ago. But Beornings were not good then and didnt step on any toes so no one cared. Toes are definitely being stepped on now lol.

Champs are the best AoE in the game and how hard are they to play lol? If complexity is a big factor then the Warden should be number one tank and dps by a big margin. A healing Beorning uses a lot more skills than just 4 lol.

@iluvata No where did i even use the word "Suck". You made that up!

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

Yes i do agree on the raid wide healing of certain Beorning skills. But that is an old topic and perhaps should be fixed.

Minstrel healing was at its easiest when it was just bolster spam and nothing else was needed because the healing was so high. How is what we have now easier than just hitting one button?



Most of the debuffs dont actually do anywhere near the values they say incase you hadnt noticed. Armour crush is good i agree and could be a Blue or even red specialisation trait. What "bunch" of debuffs/buffs are you referring to particularily?
But Minstrels have their own buffs and debuffs which are nice also. They have morale bubbles and Emergency skills.

The Bear has more burst AoE healing but on longer cooldowns, nice to heal a group up but then its gone on Cooldown.

Certain set items can boost a Beornings healing but that doesnt mean the Beorning should be nerfed.

A RK can debuff a mob in healing if it wanted to.

This all sounds like the Dps and Tanks in this game needs nerfing down then Armour crush would be nerfed anyway lol. But the healing is fine, except for it being raid wide and not FS only, which i also agreed on long ago. But Beornings were not good then and didnt step on any toes so no one cared. Toes are definitely being stepped on now lol.

Champs are the best AoE in the game and how hard are they to play lol? If complexity is a big factor then the Warden should be number one tank and dps by a big margin. A healing Beorning uses a lot more skills than just 4 lol.

@iluvata No where did i even use the word "Suck". You made that up!

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That is why I brought it up again :) It should be fixed, but hasn't been yet.

Armour Crush and Bee Swarm together increase the raid's damage by more than mini buffs do.

Rejuvenating Bellow is a 10s CD. The group never needs AOE heals more than once every 10 seconds.

But how can you justify that Beorning heals should not be nerfed when it is approaching 40k HPS Single-Target and 150k AOE. The ST HPS needs a nerf more than the AOE since that massive HPS prevents a tank from dying (the most important thing, right?) :)

Champs are very difficult to play if you animation cancel and swap weapons for max DPS. If you don't, their AOE is not much better than high end RK's can hit.

@HappyChappy Fair enough, but you were pretty aggressive right off the bat. ;)

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Originally Posted by Iluvata

That is why I brought it up again :) It should be fixed, but hasn't been yet.

Armour Crush and Bee Swarm together increase the raid's damage by more than mini buffs do.

Rejuvenating Bellow is a 10s CD. The group never needs AOE heals more than once every 10 seconds.

But how can you justify that Beorning heals should not be nerfed when it is approaching 40k HPS Single-Target and 150k AOE. The ST HPS needs a nerf more than the AOE since that massive HPS prevents a tank from dying (the most important thing, right?) :)

Champs are very difficult to play if you animation cancel and swap weapons for max DPS. If you don't, their AOE is not much better than high end RK's can hit.

@HappyChappy Fair enough, but you were pretty aggressive right off the bat. ;)

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I would like to see the screen shots of Beorning healing vs Mini healing etc. Making numbers up with no proof is no argument at all.

Bee swarm does barely anything in a raid.

Mini buffs are less effective in a T3 raid as everyone is usually overcapped, though anthem of war is a dps buff. Perhaps ask for mini buffs to be looked at a bit more then they would be in a far better spot.

The minstrel could almost use 2 inspire fellows in the time of a RB which has a mitigation buff attached to it also. Fellowships heart for extra when needed. Triumphant spirit is available fairly often. You have a group morale bubble. You have lots of heals that have a small group heal attached.

Making Rejuvenating bellow FS only would be a big nerf to AoE healing. That would be enough for now.
I dont see how a minstrel can not single target heal just as good, probably better.

Ease of use does not justify how effective a class should be. As i said if that were the case then Wardens would be number one at everything they can do. Weapon swapping isnt exactly hard.

The minstrel became more complex because they were stupidly easy and at players request. The Beorning is fun and performing well, players like the playstyle and no one has said they are boring or too easy, or not many have . They could use a couple more heal skills but until then leave them well alone. Minstrels do nont have to switch forms constantly or keep an eye on their power bars. How about we nerf minstrel power usage and make them actually worry about running out of power again?

If the group heal is not needed more than every 10 seconds then the minstrel has ample time to heal its FS. Are you basing this off one raids mechanic? A beorning could easily get caught with its heals on cooldown or out of wrath or in between forms in some situations, a Minstrel will never run out of power and has a lot of backup healing at their disposal.

There are also more laid back players in the game who dont want so much complexity. Not everyone will use macros and gaming keyboards/mouses or plugins etc. They just want to enjoy the game and enjoy the class. A lot of players dont play the warden for same reasons. If you want more complexity then stick with the Minstrel and ask for a small buff here and there. Its not like the mini is actually that difficult to play anyway.

You are proposing a 30% or so healing nerf and removal of some debuffs and to change the playstyle of the Beorning completely. That is just a little OTT lol.

There is no point in fueling this thread any longer. Everyone has different opinions and no actual real proof has been provided.

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Originally Posted by Iluvata

That is why I brought it up again :) It should be fixed, but hasn't been yet.

Armour Crush and Bee Swarm together increase the raid's damage by more than mini buffs do.

Rejuvenating Bellow is a 10s CD. The group never needs AOE heals more than once every 10 seconds.

But how can you justify that Beorning heals should not be nerfed when it is approaching 40k HPS Single-Target and 150k AOE. The ST HPS needs a nerf more than the AOE since that massive HPS prevents a tank from dying (the most important thing, right?) :)

Champs are very difficult to play if you animation cancel and swap weapons for max DPS. If you don't, their AOE is not much better than high end RK's can hit.

@HappyChappy Fair enough, but you were pretty aggressive right off the bat. ;)

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Nerf the amount of bad suggestions on forum instead!

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Originally Posted by Iluvata

The class currently is sure fun to play, but it takes absolutely no skill for how powerful it is. This is in stark contrast to healing on a RK or Minstrel which require practice, timing, and skill.


Thank you!

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Rly? Since when mini and rk healers require SKILLS to play ?

Beo atleast require some planing and resource menagment.
Wont speak about rk, but beo never beat mini. Both in pugs and premade.
Beo pull big numbers in the hps metter because have no limit of grp healing. This not make ministrels or rks weaker healers.
But some ppl care only about numbers....
Nerf beo, and ppl will stop playing it, because it will be useless. It have 1 uselfull skill line atm and you want a nerf ?
(yep i say one. if you want a tank better pick a cpt or guard)

RK healers are irrelevant now since fates nerf, groups only take minis and bears and now recently everyone plays bear, all 3 should be viable, same with captain imo.

Yes, yes, beornings are in an overpowered state right now. But historically, when Turbine and SSG nerf classes, they nerf them INTO THE GROUND. Posting threads like this is like playing with fire while your hands have gasoline on them; even if you're correct on every point, the devs are more likely to destroy the class than to balance it.

Personally, I think it's better for any or every class to be overpowered than useless. Not that either of those is ideal, but this game is far from ideal.

I would nerf the Tanks and the Dps so that healing actually matters more. They can put out some big numbers, so let healers see some big numbers also and not just be a lacklustre heal support. :)

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

I would nerf the Tanks and the Dps so that healing actually matters more. They can put out some big numbers, so let healers see some big numbers also and not just be a lacklustre heal support. :)

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Lmao! You seem bent on diverting the OP Beorning healing into let's nerf every class because reasons.




Beorning aoe healing should be limited to fellowship heals only.

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Originally Posted by sapienze

Lmao! You seem bent on diverting the OP Beorning healing into let's nerf every class because reasons.




Beorning aoe healing should be limited to fellowship heals only.

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LOL :)

Seriously,what is wrong with you guys? Please stop asking for nerfs, ask for buffing underperfoming classes and specs.

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Originally Posted by Arabani

Seriously,what is wrong with you guys? Please stop asking for nerfs, ask for buffing underperfoming classes and specs.

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We are asking for nerfs because almost every other class if performing well in at least one role, not underperforming. Beornings are overperforming in healing (and tanking IMO), making raids trivial.

For classes that severely need buffs, I'll let others handle that.

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Originally Posted by Arabani

Seriously,what is wrong with you guys? Please stop asking for nerfs, ask for buffing underperfoming classes and specs.

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The answer couldn't be more obvious; specs should balanced around the current content. If Beornings are the only healers that trivialise said content, it entirely stands to reason that they should be nerfed. If other classes were instead buffed, that would simply make these classes overperform in the current end game content as well.

So, as a matter of fact, Beornings should indeed be nerfed.

Read between the lines guys! Its just a bunch of sad creepplayers that cant handle that bears finally can do something useful!

No proof and over exaggeration is all i see here......again.

RB should probably be FS only though.

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

No proof and over exaggeration is all i see here......again.

RB should probably be FS only though.

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If you could upload screenshots directly to these forums, I would. Otherwise its too much work to upload it somewhere else that I don't have an account to and then link it here.

Don't be passive-aggressive with accusations of lying. :)

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Originally Posted by Iluvata

If you could upload screenshots directly to these forums, I would. Otherwise its too much work to upload it somewhere else that I don't have an account to and then link it here.

Don't be passive-aggressive with accusations of lying. :)

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It is the truth.

Where is your proof? We can all make numbers up.

Exaggerating is not quite the same as lying. Overestimate may be a better word for you then as you seem to be seeing so much into it lol. Which you are doing to suit your own ends. Maybe it is your knowledge that i am questioning and not your integrity.....or maybe it's both :)

As i pointed out before, you are putting your own words in as if i had said them. Your credibility is nose diving even more rapidly lol.

Good luck though as you are going no where fast with this argument :)

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Originally Posted by Iluvata

Hello Lotro Team,

I hope that you will take a moment to hear my thoughts on the state of the Beorning class in Raids.

The Beorning heal-line is far too powerful at the current time, outclassing all other healers by a long-shot.

The beorning healers that I raid with have recently begun to approach 40k HPS single-target, and 150k AoE HPS. The largest source of damage in the Anvil T3 is boss 2 while Ingor is alive. That fight stabilizes at around 25k TPS, meaning a beorning is now able to single-heal the main-tank. It has obfuscated the usefulness of a minstrel, who are weak healers in comparison. Many kinships can already one-shot every boss on T3 thanks to Beorning heals, while it takes more attempts when there are no beorning healers present.

The class currently is sure fun to play, but it takes absolutely no skill for how powerful it is. This is in stark contrast to healing on a RK or Minstrel which require practice, timing, and skill.

I am not suggesting a large nerf, but some aspects of the Beorning heals should be looked at again. Maybe nerf it back to 20-25k HPS instead of 30-35k HPS. There is little incentive to bring in other healers if two Beornings are available.

I personally play a Beorning healer, and I believe that we are too powerful at this time. That is why I am asking you to consider a nerf of the Beorning heals. I would love to at least hear your feedback!

Thank you!

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And :
@Vastin - Beorning Tank Needs a Nerf
Started by Iluvata,

You are some beo hater or what? When to wait for " red beo need a nerf" ??? Your argmuments are false + you have no idea how the class work. Have a nice day. (keep in mind some ppl cant swim. dont flood the forum with tears)

Thanks to the complaints, that SSG foolishly listened to, Bears have been nerfed and are no longer welcome in any group. The only thing worse than your favorite class being unplayable, is having payed extra for the class. SSG needs to actually test before nerfing, look a the whole game, not just PVMP and end game raids (which account for a minority of game play).

What is it with mini's needing kept on a pedestal? the call has always been interesting, but why is there at attitude that it has to be the "alpha" healing class, competitive DPS, a top solo class, and top MVMP. For 10 of the 12 years I've played I've just watched and shook my head at the constant favor shown to minis ... why is one class prioritized all others? In this case minis were whining about Beorning heals, and guess what happened ....

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Originally Posted by eanamdar

Thanks to the complaints, that SSG foolishly listened to, Bears have been nerfed and are no longer welcome in any group. The only thing worse than your favorite class being unplayable, is having payed extra for the class. SSG needs to actually test before nerfing, look a the whole game, not just PVMP and end game raids (which account for a minority of game play).

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What are you talking about? Not a single change has been made to Beornings since the inception of this thread. There are four minor changes on BR, none of which are nerfs, they are bug fixes. You're literally talking nonsense, Beornings are still by far the best healers in the game.

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What is it with mini's needing kept on a pedestal? the call has always been interesting, but why is there at attitude that it has to be the "alpha" healing class, competitive DPS, a top solo class, and top MVMP. For 10 of the 12 years I've played I've just watched and shook my head at the constant favor shown to minis ... why is one class prioritized all others? In this case minis were whining about Beorning heals, and guess what happened ....

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Yes, tell me more, what happened?

I think you're asleep at the wheel. Bears finally got some love, making us competitive healers. Mini's started whining, and there was a nerf to bear healing. If you want dates you'll have to research them, I don't calendar game changes.

Honestly, why is this even a discussion? Bear healing is fine at the moment output-wise. It'd be nice if there were a few things changed, but I feel like that should be very low on the list of priorities for the devs. Keep in mind, Beornings don't have much of an ability to reduce a tank's incoming damage like how Mini/RK can. As such, their healing output is justifiably higher.

Every class has issues/bugs/scaling problems, and Beorning is no exception. Especially considering for how long Beorning was an unwanted class, I think it's perfectly OK to leave it be for the time being, as it isn't brokenly overpowered or anything; just a bit strong.

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Originally Posted by Aeviternus

What are you talking about? Not a single change has been made to Beornings since the inception of this thread. There are four minor changes on BR, none of which are nerfs, they are bug fixes. You're literally talking nonsense, Beornings are still by far the best healers in the game.

Yes, tell me more, what happened?

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I think he is referring to Update 23.3 from February 4th 2019:

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Beornings:
Beornings can now use crossbows starting at level 1.
Encouraging Roar's healing over time component has been reduced by 15%, and its tier magnitude has been reduced from 1, 2, and 3 to 1, 1.5, and 2.
Beorning Abyss' set bonus now distributes Encouraging Roar's healing over time component at 20% power increase of 33%.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pavlin

And :
@Vastin - Beorning Tank Needs a Nerf
Started by Iluvata,

You are some beo hater or what? When to wait for " red beo need a nerf" ??? Your argmuments are false + you have no idea how the class work. Have a nice day. (keep in mind some ppl cant swim. dont flood the forum with tears)

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If you truly think I have no idea how the class works, then thank you sincerely for proving my point about Beornings being overscaled. I can hit 25k+ ST heals with DPS gear.

Thank you for your support, friend.

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Originally Posted by Zohal

I think he is referring to Update 23.3 from February 4th 2019:

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This thread was made after that change went live, so that would still not make any sense.

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Originally Posted by ColMcStacky

Honestly, why is this even a discussion? Bear healing is fine at the moment output-wise. It'd be nice if there were a few things changed, but I feel like that should be very low on the list of priorities for the devs. Keep in mind, Beornings don't have much of an ability to reduce a tank's incoming damage like how Mini/RK can. As such, their healing output is justifiably higher.

Every class has issues/bugs/scaling problems, and Beorning is no exception. Especially considering for how long Beorning was an unwanted class, I think it's perfectly OK to leave it be for the time being, as it isn't brokenly overpowered or anything; just a bit strong.

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If you do the math, the higher HPS output of a Beorning more than makes up for the lack of incoming damage reduction.


Anyway, I’ve been asked by a few kinmates to stop posting here. I will respect their wishes. But just know that if you argue with the FACT that Beorning heals are OP, you are lying to yourself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aeviternus

This thread was made after that change went live, so that would still not make any sense.

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Class get nerfed and is still op. So I see this thread makes no sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mukor

Class get nerfed and is still op. So I see this thread makes no sense.

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This line of "logic" makes no sense. Just the fact that the class received minor nerfs does not mean it isn't still too strong.

Sacrifice, Piercing Roar, Armour Crush, Bee Swarm, Nature's Bond, stun immunity on channeled ability, very high healer DPS (which is actually significant), and ridiculously high levels of AoE healing. Yes, this spec is too strong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ColMcStacky

Honestly, why is this even a discussion? Bear healing is fine at the moment output-wise. It'd be nice if there were a few things changed, but I feel like that should be very low on the list of priorities for the devs. Keep in mind, Beornings don't have much of an ability to reduce a tank's incoming damage like how Mini/RK can. As such, their healing output is justifiably higher.

Every class has issues/bugs/scaling problems, and Beorning is no exception. Especially considering for how long Beorning was an unwanted class, I think it's perfectly OK to leave it be for the time being, as it isn't brokenly overpowered or anything; just a bit strong.

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If/when the minstrel trait reflecting cry ever gets fixed to actually reduce incoming damage then minstrel will have 15% reduction from that trait, plus 4/9% from inspire fellows depending on if 4 pieces of Abyss gear are used, and up to 3% increase in mitigations, and a 10% temporary reduction from coda.

But without the 15% reflecting cry minstrel's constant incoming dps reduction generally feels low at 4/9% reduction from inspire fellows + 3% mits from SoS, with an occasional extra 10% damage reduction from coda.

I'm not sure how this compares with RK/beorn incoming damage reduction / mitigation increases.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aeviternus

This line of "logic" makes no sense. Just the fact that the class received minor nerfs does not mean it isn't still too strong.

Sacrifice, Piercing Roar, Armour Crush, Bee Swarm, Nature's Bond, stun immunity on channeled ability, very high healer DPS (which is actually significant), and ridiculously high levels of AoE healing. Yes, this spec is too strong.

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you have to buy this class. with money. on top of everything else in this game. it should be very strong at something.

there will always be a best and a worst in every role. welcome to mmorpgs. the only time this isn't true is in games with no classes no pvp and do not rely on the holy trinity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Teyaha

you have to buy this class. with money. on top of everything else in this game. it should be very strong at something.

there will always be a best and a worst in every role. welcome to mmorpgs. the only time this isn't true is in games with no classes no pvp and do not rely on the holy trinity.

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You don´t buy opness with the calsses, you buy other mechanics wich maybe are fun for you.
the system should balance all classes for a role. for healers, one class is doting, on big initail heals, the other reduces the inc dmg so less numbers are effective as the others, for example (same for other roles). But no different what you choose as a leder the success must be rerachable with the same level of difficulty.
But at the end everyone who bought/ will buy the beo should buy him cause he has fun to switch forms and not cause it´s the best class for one role.
all to buy classes have mechanics which raise them from the others. beos the form switching (which poorly get under, a few times men to build wrath but not more/men form need more relevant skills), wardens have their gamits, rks their whole debuffing the foe to be stronger system and a mage class. this is why you should buy the classes cause you want the style not cause their´re the best in something.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

Just to throw this one out there lol. Perhaps it is the Tanks that need a nerf. Why is ease of content blamed on healers only?

A tank can do small content easily solo. High morale and good survival.
A dps puts out huge damage numbers.

What does a healer have if it is nerfed down and just a weak assist/support.

I think there is far more to it that needs looking at but thats just my opinion. I wouldn't think of creating a thread about it without providing some arguments other than "EVERYONE knows", it is just my opinion.

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It is not the other healers or tanks that are the problem. It is that the Beorning is way overscaled with healing. Max TPS in the game is 28k on Boss 2. Beornings heal that much by themselves. Mini's and RK's heal much less than that. The fights already take 10-20 minutes each, so DPS doesn't need a nerf. The TPS is huge at 28k (that is an entire morale pool every 10s), so tanks do not need a nerf.

Beorning needs a scale-down. Why do you think everyone is Valaring a Beorning? It is OP and everyone is rushing to take advantage of it. Once again, I'm not asking for a huge nerf. I am just asking that end-game beornings have their heals scaled back to 25k ST-HPS instead of 35k ST-HPS. This is still far more than the RK, and still slightly above the mini in terms of ST-HPS.


Also, almost every class can solo anything. You can solo the resource-instance scourges on any class, except maybe burg, for example.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iluvata

It is not the healers or tanks that are the problem. It is that the Beorning is way overscaled with healing. Max TPS in the game is 28k on Boss 2. Beornings heal that much by themselves. Mini's and RK's heal much less than that. The fights already take 10-20 minutes each, so DPS doesn't need a nerf. The TPS is huge at 28k (that is an entire morale pool every 10s), so tanks do not need a nerf.

Beorning needs a scale-down. Why do you think everyone is Valaring a Beorning? It is OP and everyone is rushing to take advantage of it.

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Could be that the Beorning is fun to play and is an effective tank and healer now. The Beorning was not good before and so players did not roll one.

But i do agree that RB should be FS only. How about settle with that for now and see how that works? Small adjustments are better than some heavy handed over nerfing that threads like this can cause and has happened before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

Could be that the Beorning is fun to play and is an effective tank and healer now. The Beorning was not good before and so players did not roll one.

But i do agree that RB should be FS only. How about settle with that for now and see how that works? Small adjustments are better than some heavy handed over nerfing that threads like this can cause and has happened before.

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The beorning is very fun to play. I love the class. Remember, I am specifically asking for end-game healing nerfs, not normal-play nerfs.

Personally, from a T3-raiders perspective, I think the AOE heal capability of the Beorning is fine. I don't mind that part so much. The healing is reactive instead of proactive since it has to heal after the damage is done unlike RKs and Mini's who can bubble before a big hit. It is the extremely high ST-HPS that makes content trivial. Again, I am not asking for a heavy handed nerf, just a small rescale. Plus, if we just nerf the AOE heals but leave the ST-HPS the same, then the Beorning will be a clone of the other healers. The cross-group AOE heals are what makes it unique, awesome, and fun as heck to play.

HappyChappy, I really appreciate the much more mature discussion that you are having with me in your last few posts. Thank you!

At this time, the group setup of raids is very diversified.


Guardians, Captains, and Beornings can all tank and bring different strengths and limitations.
RKs, Hunters, Champs, and maybe Wardens and burgs after the update can all DPS, and bring different strengths and limitations.
LMs, Captains, Wardens and Burgs can all buff/debuff, and bring different strengths and limitations.
Minis, Beornings, and RKs (kinda) can all heal, with different strengths and limitations.

In regards to healing, since this is what the thread is about:

-Mini's are great ST healers, and also provide solid FS-AOE Heals. They have bubbles and buffs to protect and boost their allies.
-RKs are good ST healers, but where they excel is damage reduction and proactive bubbles/protections of their allies. They are invaluable against flops, eyes, and other telegraphed damage sources.
-Beornings are unparalleled ST-healers and unparalleled AOE-healers, with unparalled DPS buffs. I think the ST-heals should be reduced so that they are still unparalleled AOE-healers, with a ST-HPS that is still competitive.
Beornings are purely reactive healers, with only one skill to mitigate telegraphed damage on only one ally at a time. If we nerf the AOE but keep the ST high, then they are just watered down-minstrels. But keeping the AOE the same while reducing ST slightly makes them an invaluable addition to every raid.

Just my thoughts :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iluvata

Guardians, Captains, and Beornings can all tank and bring different strengths and limitations.
RKs, Hunters, Champs, and maybe Wardens and burgs after the update can all DPS, and bring different strengths and limitations.
LMs, Captains, Wardens and Burgs can all buff/debuff, and bring different strengths and limitations.
Minis, Beornings, and RKs (kinda) can all heal, with different strengths and limitations.

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Wow, that's a very sad list for a warden. A former main tank. :(

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Originally Posted by Zohal

Wow, that's a very sad list for a warden. A former main tank. :(

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Agreed :(

Fortunately, wardens still do have a role in the Raid, even at T3, if they so desire. It just wont be as a tank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iluvata

If you truly think I have no idea how the class works, then thank you sincerely for proving my point about Beornings being overscaled. I can hit 25k+ ST heals with DPS gear.

Thank you for your support, friend.

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And you can do the same with every healer/ no i dont mean blue cpt/
So what?
And yes i`m sure you have no idea how the class work.
Question is. Why you cry for nerf when beo is not 1st in any role ?
Because of pvmp? I dont care about PvMp.
But even there beo is not the class which need to be nerfed 1st.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iluvata

Agreed :(

Fortunately, wardens still do have a role in the Raid, even at T3, if they so desire. It just wont be as a tank.

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So dps then ? Why give spot to red wrd when any other /than bear/ dps do better?

I think the recent burglar update tells us everything we need to know. Vastin tends to overscale things. Look at the burg who was just buffed and now has the highest DPS in the game. Burgs can hit upwards of 100k ST without buffs, and around 200k SINGLE-TARGET with buffs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pavlin

And you can do the same with every healer/ no i dont mean blue cpt/
So what?
And yes i`m sure you have no idea how the class work.
Question is. Why you cry for nerf when beo is not 1st in any role ?
Because of pvmp? I dont care about PvMp.
But even there beo is not the class which need to be nerfed 1st.

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You cannot even hit 25k HPS with every healer. RK can't even come close to that. Minstrel can hit 25k HPS nowadays, but only very good raid-mini's ever do.

Right, I have no idea how the class works and I heal for 25k HPS ST and 120K aoe IN DPS GEAR. Thanks again for proving my point that beorning heals are OP.

What? Beornings are tied for the 1st spot heal role. The only reason mini's are tied with them is for mini-buffs.... This is common knowledge.

I don't care about PvMP either. This thread is about end-game healing.

And who do you think needs to be nerfed first?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pavlin

So dps then ? Why give spot to red wrd when any other /than bear/ dps do better?

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Wardens have a role in buffing/debuffing in end-game raids. They boost the DPS output of their fellowship/raid by a considerable margin. Also, for boss 2, Wardens have some of the best AOE DPS around.

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Minstrel can hit 25k HPS nowadays, but only very good raid-mini's ever do.

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Any half decent minstrel, not necessarily raiding material, can very easily hit over 25k. 25k is what a minstrel hits when they either aren't trying, or have a poor rotation in place or lack knowledge on how the class heals. I've seen minstrels hit well over 100k+ hps, I myself tend to average between 60k to 90k hps, so what you've said is merely you trying to make the other healers look worse in an attempt to make beornings look overpowered, when they are in fact in a good spot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iluvata

You cannot hit 25k HPS with every healer. RK can't even come close to that. Minstrel can hit 25k HPS nowadays, but only very good raid-mini's ever do. I'm not sure you have any end-game experience based on your statements.

Right, I have no idea how the class works and I heal for 25k HPS ST and 120K aoe IN DPS GEAR. Thanks again for proving my point that beorning heals are OP.

What? Beornings are tied for the 1st spot heal role. The only reason mini's are tied with them is for mini-buffs.... This is common knowledge.

I don't care about PvMP either. This thread is about end-game healing.

And who do you think needs to be nerfed first?



Wardens have a role in buffing/debuffing in end-game raids. They boost the DPS output of their fellowship/raid by a considerable margin. Also, for boss 2, Wardens have some of the best AOE DPS around.

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If Minis are tied with Beornings in healing as you say then whats the problem? surely its just the RK that needs work, which it is getting soon....ish. Though the RK does have some very nice bubbles that do not contribute to HPS score and so does the minstrel.

A mini should not be better than a Beorning at healing nor should it be other way around. 100% balance though is probably not achievable lol. Just be happy all are effective and without massively varying degrees of power. I think they are fairly close but a few small tweaks here and there might be good.

Dps or healing gear does not matter at all. As long as the caps are hit.

If you removed the AoE raid wide heal of RB and made it FS only then that would have a big effect to AoE healing output. Problem with SSG is that they would remove the raid wide heal of RB and nerf it at the same time and the Beorning would be on the shelf yet again.

Maybe the Minstrel was nerfed a little too hard (though they seem fne to me), maybe raid bosses need to hit harder etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

If Minis are tied with Beornings in healing as you say then whats the problem? surely its just the RK that needs work, which it is getting soon....ish. Though the RK does have some very nice bubbles that do not contribute to HPS score and so does the minstrel.

A mini should not be better than a Beorning at healing nor should it be other way around. 100% balance though is probably not achievable lol. Just be happy all are effective and without massively varying degrees of power. I think they are fairly close but a few small tweaks here and there might be good.

Dps or healing gear does not matter at all. As long as the caps are hit.

If you removed the AoE raid wide heal of RB and made it FS only then that would have a big effect to AoE healing output. Problem with SSG is that they would remove the raid wide heal of RB and nerf it at the same time and the Beorning would be on the shelf yet again.

Maybe the Minstrel was nerfed a little too hard (though they seem fne to me), maybe raid bosses need to hit harder etc.

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I was not entirely clear earlier. Beornings are better than minstrels as a healer/buffer overall. But many groups carry one of each to benefit from both buffs. This means that they are both #1 in terms of being taken as a healer, but it does not change the fact that beorning heals are overscaled. If you wanted a raw HPS output so high that it was impossible to die (single-target and AOE), two bears is the way to go.

Your second statement is exactly what I am trying to say lol. Beornings are much better than minstrels at healing. They hit far higher ST-HPS and AOE HPS. It should be one or the other, not both.

The AOE Heals of the Bear are not the problem, so I don't think RB should be adjusted. It is the ST-HPS that is too high.

lol obviously by stating I am in DPS Gear I am implying my stat caps are not hit, and I am getting 25k HPS ST.

Minstrel was buffed, not nerfed in the last update.

I already explained why raid bosses do not need to be made harder. Even with the tank's Emergency Skills used, bosses can put out nearly 28k TPS, which is a tank's entire morale bar every 10 seconds. That is assuming buffs/debuffs do not fall off very often. With no debuffs, bosses hit for over 50k TPS, which is a tank's entire morale bar every 6 seconds. To illustrate this point futher, if a healer was not present, the bosses were not debuffed, and the tank was not using a CD, the boss would blow through a tank's entire morale bar in 2-3 seconds.

Again, I want to reiterate, a point from my last post: I think the recent burglar update tells us everything we need to know. Vastin tends to overscale things. Look at the burg class, which was just buffed and now has the highest DPS in the game. Burgs can hit upwards of 100k ST without buffs, and around 200k SINGLE-TARGET with buffs. Vastin sometimes overscales things, and the Beorning is no exception.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iluvata

I was not entirely clear earlier. Beornings are better than minstrels as a healer/buffer overall. But many groups carry one of each to benefit from both buffs. This means that they are both #1 in terms of being taken as a healer, but it does not change the fact that beorning heals are overscaled. If you wanted a raw HPS output so high that it was impossible to die (single-target and AOE), two bears is the way to go.

Your second statement is exactly what I am trying to say lol. Beornings are much better than minstrels at healing. They hit far higher ST-HPS and AOE HPS. It should be one or the other, not both.

The AOE Heals of the Bear are not the problem, so I don't think RB should be adjusted. It is the ST-HPS that is too high.

lol obviously by stating I am in DPS Gear I am implying my stat caps are not hit, and I am getting 25k HPS ST.

Minstrel was buffed, not nerfed in the last update.

I already explained why raid bosses do not need to be made harder. Even with the tank's Emergency Skills used, bosses can put out nearly 28k TPS, which is a tank's entire morale bar every 10 seconds. That is assuming buffs/debuffs do not fall off very often. With no debuffs, bosses hit for over 50k TPS, which is a tank's entire morale bar every 6 seconds. To illustrate this point futher, if a healer was not present, the bosses were not debuffed, and the tank was not using a CD, the boss would blow through a tank's entire morale bar in 2-3 seconds.

Again, I want to reiterate, a point from my last post: I think the recent burglar update tells us everything we need to know. Vastin tends to overscale things. Look at the burg class, which was just buffed and now has the highest DPS in the game. Burgs can hit upwards of 100k ST without buffs, and around 200k SINGLE-TARGET with buffs. Vastin sometimes overscales things, and the Beorning is no exception.

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Sorry but i disagree and nothing here convinces me otherwise. It is just your opinion we are seeing here. There is far more to it than what you are saying but you are intent on putting all the blame onto the Beorning class at every opportunity.

They overscale and they overnerf also.

Just show some actual figures of Minstrel vs RK vs Beorning healing and lets take into account buffs and bubbles etc or just stop posting if you can not be bothered.

This thread serves no purpose other than to get the developers to take notice and get the Beorning nerfed to unplayable again, because this is not the first thread of its kind to get a class nerfed into oblivion is it?

Don't spit your dummy out because some kid has a bigger ice cream than you, when yours has chocolate sauce on it instead. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

Sorry but i disagree and nothing here convinces me otherwise. It is just your opinion we are seeing here. There is far more to it than what you are saying but you are intent on putting all the blame onto the Beorning class at every opportunity.

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What am I not telling? I am speaking from the perspective of a T3 Raider. I am not hiding anything. I have also put in the time and work to make my beorning a powerful healer and tank. I know what I am talking about. I think a T3-raider's opinion matters concerning endgame heals more than non-endgame raider's opinions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

They overscale and they overnerf also.

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That is not a valid excuse to knowingly accept a highly overscaled class that makes content trivial.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

Just show some actual figures of Minstrel vs RK vs Beorning healing and lets take into account buffs and bubbles etc or just stop posting if you can not be bothered.

This thread serves no purpose other than to get the developers to take notice and get the Beorning nerfed to unplayable again, because this is not the first thread of its kind to get a class nerfed into oblivion is it?

Don't spit your dummy out because some kid has a bigger ice cream than you, when yours has chocolate sauce on it instead. :)

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I think my intentions with this thread are clear. Maybe you should stop posting in it if you are so sure it is a useless thread? This is a thread about endgame Beorning nerfs, and my sense is you have little-to-no endgame raiding experience.

Test beo heal in 3/6m then speak.
In raid beo heal look huge because hes not limited to fellowship/party heal.
But gues you know that. Or not ...
One advice. To all "NERF IT" moaners. Dont cry for nerf. Ask SSG to boost other classes.
Wonder why ? Because when they nerf, is to the ground.
So yea. Use that brain of yours...

What´s the problem raids count, 3/6 are so damn easy, that it doesn´t matter who heals.
In some constellations no hela is enough, in others lm as healer or even burg as healer is enough.
So who cares who is weaker in 3 or 6 men, raid opness matters.
Maybe it would be enough to limit the beos heals to target + felloship similar to mini aoeheals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mukor

What´s the problem raids count, 3/6 are so damn easy, that it doesn´t matter who heals.
In some constellations no hela is enough, in others lm as healer or even burg as healer is enough.
So who cares who is weaker in 3 or 6 men, raid opness matters.
Maybe it would be enough to limit the beos heals to target + felloship similar to mini aoeheals.

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Yes thats what i am saying also. Just change RB to FS only and see how that goes. We do not need a 30%+ nerf at this point, that just a silly OTT request. Rejuvenating Bellow should never have been a raid wide heal, i really do not think that it is working as was intended. Developers have just never bothered to fix it i reckon. I would support that request.

Classes have been given so much self healing now that healers are only needed for the hardest content.

Did Vastin also not say he may be adding more skills to beornings some time in the future?. It would be nice to know if thats still the plan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

Yes thats what i am saying also. Just change RB to FS only and see how that goes.

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Well, Iluvata always talks about single target healing. Not saying I am on his side, but changing aoe heal from any number of players in radius into fellowship only won´t change single target healing.


And I have no issue with raid wide heals. It makes possible to create pure dd group and thus captain buffs are better used. Also, since ages we don´t have second healer in dd group but in the tank/support group. (Dps classes heal themselves through healing mark.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gertes

I think heal in general is to strong, from what i have seen Minis are also able to heal insane numbers, but i agree with you that beo heal is very easy to play (in his basic healing role).

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This. When I tank on my Captain, no matter which class is healing me, I never get that sense of precariousness during the boss fight that I used to feel at some of the older level caps. When there's no point in even getting a single point of incoming healing, it means to me that healers are too strong (and inc healing essences are underscaled)

I play both Mini and Beorning so it doesn't really bother me which is the better healer, as long as it's not RK. :P

There is a very big difference between HPS and actually being a good healer, I find that I overheal like mad with my Beorning, encouraging roar is just overkill for any non-tank class, if you have a few that are taking some big hits then what are you going to do? Hearten's cooldown is too long to use to top people up, even Nature's Mend 5s cooldown is uncomfortably long, you also can't use it in bear form. Bellows or RM are going to hit the entire raid. How much of the healing is effective healing? Sure, it has it's moments where it shines, particularly where the entire raid takes a lot of damage, or where you have npcs that need to be healed as well.

I hope people aren't complaining about the numbers for the sake of just raw HPS, You could sit there and get more than 50k HPS by just stacking SoS on everyone and you will be a horrible healer with great numbers. If a Beo is just trying and squirt out the largest numbers he can then timing means nothing so you just go ham and hope someone competent is compensates for you being an ordinary healer.

Minstrel do have some issues that SSG could address. The class is too reliant on critical heals and the class gets some monstrous magnitude bonuses, to compensate the base numbers are very low, this means non-crit heal streaks are very painful.

While I think moving away from Bolster spam was a good thing, the amount of healing granted by Bolster Our Courage and Raise Our Spirits are so low that they might aswell not even be there. Minstrel is polar opposite to Beorning, it has a lot of efficient heals for topping up non-tanks but the fellowship wide healing is either bound on uncomfortably long cooldowns for the amount they heal (6s cooldown on Inspire Fellow which is less than a tick of RM) or 45s on Triumphant Spirit, 2min on Fellowship Heart. If there is a fair bit of fellowship wide damage Minstrel has numerous less than ideal options. I love major ballad now but 8m range is limiting. There are a lot of legacies, traits, etc to boost Bolster and RoS and all combined are somewhat underwhelming for the investment.

I've lost count of the number of Minstrels who say they have troubles with single target healing when the tank takes some big bursts of damage but don't know the AotTA/Coda/Instant Bolster combo, combined with Chord it allows you to do a significant amount of single target healing in a short period of time.

I like the interaction with the damage reduction buffs from coda and inspire fellows plus the mitigation buff from SoS, there are a lot of things for a minstrel to do now and I think it is in a better place than it ever was. The major problem is significant sustained fellowship wide damage, Beorning have much better tools to deal with it, we have to be a lot more selective about what we use and when. We have far reduced capacity to compensate for others playing badly, the nature of Beorning allows them to do that to some extent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeorgeBaggy

This. When I tank on my Captain, no matter which class is healing me, I never get that sense of precariousness during the boss fight that I used to feel at some of the older level caps. When there's no point in even getting a single point of incoming healing, it means to me that healers are too strong (and inc healing essences are underscaled)

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If you are looking for "that sense of precariousness", then group with a Captain healer. Problem solved!