Question for the Dev Team Concerning Traceries

This is a question for the dev team concerning traceries and expiration dates/levels. I have been told that I am misreading and misunderstanding the maximum levels on traceries. There are many people out here complaining that traceries go inactive and stop functioning when your character exceeds the maximum level on the tracery. It seemed obvious to me reading everything that has been published. I had someone tell me yesterday that traceries like our old weapons will never expire and stop functioning. Instead the maximum level just means you can no long upgrade those traceries once your character exceeds the level. What is the correct answer?

Not looking for opinions on the system. Not looking for best guesses. I am just looking for someone in the know to answer. Do traceries stop functioning when a character exceeds the maximum level stated on the tracery?

If for whatever reason I am not able to replace a tracery when my character levels past the maximum level of the tracery, what, if any benefit will the tracery provide?

Thank you for helping. :)

NOTE: I do not want to start a complaint session. I sincerely want an answer to this question since I was told I am not understanding the level ranges and what happens. Thank you to everyone who steps back and avoids voicing their opinion so the actual question can be answered.

I will also be happy if whoever answers this questions closes the thread. I do not want to start a discussion or complaint session. The actual answer gets lost at that point.

The maximum level of a Tracery is the max level that a player can benefit from that Tracery, and is based on the level range of the Tracery plus the next cap range. So a 121-130 Tracery will offer its bonus until the character hits (in the future) level 141. However, in terms of leveling up a Tracery, that can be done within the level range, and the Tracery will not be able to be leveled higher than its level range, with one exception: Level 121-130 Traceries can be leveled up to 140.

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Originally Posted by Cordovan

The maximum level of a Tracery is the max level that a player can benefit from that Tracery, and is based on the level range of the Tracery plus the next cap range. So a 121-130 Tracery will offer its bonus until the character hits (in the future) level 141. However, in terms of leveling up a Tracery, that can be done within the level range, and the Tracery will not be able to be leveled higher than its level range, with one exception: Level 121-130 Traceries can be leveled up to 140.

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You still didn't clarify if it gets disabled or not, you say that "tracery offer its bonus until the character...", then what happens when the character hits lvl141, in this case? "tracery won't offer its bonus", aka, "tracery will be deactivated"?

To OP, I think the confusion you have is with the enhancement runes and ilvl.

Example:

Morgul traceries have minimum level 121 and maximum level 140. When character is 141, traceries "don't offer its bonus" (aka be disabled, right Cordovan?)
Morgul traceries have ilvl 400-449 and you need to use enhancement runes to raise this level. For transition purposes, Morgul traceries will also have ilvl 450-499, the same as the Gundabad traceries

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Originally Posted by Fegefeuer

You still didn't clarify if it gets disabled or not, you say that "tracery offer its bonus until the character...", then what happens when the character hits lvl141, in this case? "tracery won't offer its bonus", aka, "tracery will be deactivated"?

To OP, I think the confusion you have is with the enhancement runes and ilvl.

Example:

Morgul traceries have minimum level 121 and maximum level 140. When character is 141, traceries "don't offer its bonus" (aka be disabled, right Cordovan?)
Morgul traceries have ilvl 400-449 and you need to use enhancement runes to raise this level. For transition purposes, Morgul traceries will also have ilvl 450-499, the same as the Gundabad traceries

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The Tracery will no longer offer its bonus, whether you want to call it "deactivated" or not is up to you I guess. The end result is the same. The iLevel of the Tracery would still have a maximum usage level regardless of how it interacts with enhancement runes.

The question posed can get quite complicated. If you are level 96, does the level 45 to 95 tracery "stop" giving its stats? Does it just idly sit in your legendary item displaying +0? Does it give off a red boundary around the icon when it goes over? Does it "pop off" the item so you can disenchant it? I can see people asking these questions because these kind of explicit details aren't fully explained. A person could easily discover what happens on their own once they get to that point, but most are worried about something bad happening before then.

They should simply change that behaviour, not have maximum levels and not have different tiers of legacies at all. min/max levels for ranks of legacies depending on characterlevel is fine, anything else is unnecessary or leads to too much grind which increases the gap between casuals and raiders and should be avoided.

Thank you for responding. It is OK to close my thread now. I really only wanted the answer to my question which you provided. Thank you for the quick response.

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Originally Posted by WeirdJedi

The question posed can get quite complicated. If you are level 96, does the level 45 to 95 tracery "stop" giving its stats? Does it just idly sit in your legendary item displaying +0? Does it give off a red boundary around the icon when it goes over? Does it "pop off" the item so you can disenchant it? I can see people asking these questions because these kind of explicit details aren't fully explained. A person could easily discover what happens on their own once they get to that point, but most are worried about something bad happening before then.

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I'd love to watch Cordovan testing this in Cord of the Rings. Can you do it, Cordovan? You could valar a character to lvl95, get a LI with traceries and then level to 96 and see what happens. On livestream, so it will remain saved too.

Sorry but still confused. My tracery says max 449. I used MC on one for a test and it only increased to 441. I guess I wasted the remaining MC?
I still don't get it.

Ok. So.


Our current teal traceries which are "tier 13" (as marked by the number 13 on the tracery itself), are useable between character levels 121 and 140. This means at level 141 and above, you will no longer gain the benefit from them, this is quite some time away, so not something you need to worry about for the time being.

On the point of enhancements...

You upgrade the item level of the SLOT the tracery is put into, and NOT the tracery itself - if you replace the tracery at any point, the tracery will take on the level of the slot (except in cases where the tracery itself has a higher item level). Our current tier 13 traceries have a starting item level of 400. This means our slots get automatically put to item level 400, using enhancement runes raises this item level and in turn increases the effectiveness* of the tracery. Currently, when appraising, we are given purple and teal enhancement runes, enough so that you can take the tracery slot to item level 440, CURRENTLY, the max level we can raise these to is 449, the only way CURRENTLY, to raise our traceries to 449 is either with gold enhancement runes (dropping from certain t3 and above content and some book/unique quests), or with 2 mithril coins per item level - 18 mithril coins for item level 440 > 449 PER tracery slot.

When we get to Gundabad, and over a period of time, eventually our tier 13 traceries will be increased to have a maximum level of 499, which will match the Gundabad tier 14 traceries. The only difference here is, tier 14 traceries from Gundabad will be able to be used between character levels 131 and 150, whereas our tier 13 traceries will stop working at character level 141.



*Note; increasing the item level only enhances stat related bonuses provided by traceries and NOT percentage based bonuses. Percentage based bonuses are only altered by the rarity of the tracery itself (green, purple, teal, gold).

When you say that a tracery "will no longer offer its bonus" that means that all the stats on it will be set to zero, correct? Or do you mean that there is some set amount that stays and some additional amount that is a "bonus" that goes?

For example:

-x seconds to skill cooldown
+ 10,000 tactical mastery
+ 1000 will


Since enhancement runes only effect the last two stats, are they the "bonus" or is the whole tracery the "bonus?"

I think you are saying that the whole tracery will effectively get reset to zero stats (all three numbers) but this isn't totally clear. Will a tracery "losing its bonus" be obvious when you look at it? Will it turn red or something like that?

My slot or tracery was increase from 400 to 440 using enhancements purple and teal. I was curious on what the MC button would do so I clicked on it and I believe the slider said 18 MC max. So I selected the 18 and all I got was the slot or tracery to 441 but, lost 16 MC. I don't know what if anything I did wrong.

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Originally Posted by CloudCastle

When you say that a tracery "will no longer offer its bonus" that means that all the stats on it will be set to zero, correct? Or do you mean that there is some set amount that stays and some additional amount that is a "bonus" that goes?

For example:

-x seconds to skill cooldown
+ 10,000 tactical mastery
+ 1000 will


Since enhancement runes only effect the last two stats, are they the "bonus" or is the whole tracery the "bonus?"

I think you are saying that the whole tracery will effectively get reset to zero stats (all three numbers) but this isn't totally clear. Will a tracery "losing its bonus" be obvious when you look at it? Will it turn red or something like that?

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Can't say for certain, but it will look you will just lose the bonuses completely, but it won't be visible on the weapon that it has been disabled perhaps.

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Originally Posted by Dezzorr

My slot or tracery was increase from 400 to 440 using enhancements purple and teal. I was curious on what the MC button would do so I clicked on it and I believe the slider said 18 MC max. So I selected the 18 and all I got was the slot or tracery to 441 but, lost 16 MC. I don't know what if anything I did wrong.

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This sounds like a bug, are you sure you paid 18 MC? And it didn't reset by chance and you only paid for 1? If you did in fact pay 18, this sounds like a bug, and you should contact a GM or support.

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Originally Posted by CloudCastle

When you say that a tracery "will no longer offer its bonus" that means that all the stats on it will be set to zero, correct? Or do you mean that there is some set amount that stays and some additional amount that is a "bonus" that goes?

For example:

-x seconds to skill cooldown
+ 10,000 tactical mastery
+ 1000 will


Since enhancement runes only effect the last two stats, are they the "bonus" or is the whole tracery the "bonus?"

I think you are saying that the whole tracery will effectively get reset to zero stats (all three numbers) but this isn't totally clear. Will a tracery "losing its bonus" be obvious when you look at it? Will it turn red or something like that?

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Really interesting question, I want to know the answer of this too. Also proof that the "bonus" wording is confusing.

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Originally Posted by CloudCastle

Since enhancement runes only effect the last two stats, are they the "bonus" or is the whole tracery the "bonus?"

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The whole tracery adds a bonus. That bonus will not apply anymore.

It will just not add its bonus to anything that counts.

Call it disabled, non functional, reset to zero, some like to call it USELESS, etc...
(Btw you can remove it from the LI with a removal scroll or MC and give it to another toon that is still the level range of that tracery and it will work, so it did not get reset to 0, ETA: i did not consider whether they might be bound after that or not but that would be pretty pointless if they were bound)

So when you level up during a fight, you suddenly end up with a powerless LI, as all traceries are switched off?
Must be even more fun than suddenly dropping my Hytbold gear in the thick of a fight some years ago...

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Originally Posted by monk_tbd

(Btw you can remove it from the LI with a removal scroll or MC and give it to another toon that is still the level range of that tracery and it will work, so it did not get reset to 0, ETA: i did not consider whether they might be bound after that or not but that would be pretty pointless if they were bound)

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I won't swear to it, but I am pretty sure the one time I removed traceries they came out account bound still, and there's no reason why one character leveling beyond them would cause them to be ineffective for another character in the correct level range. So it seems that at least some traceries would make good hand-me-downs the way some essences do.

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

Ok. So.


Our current teal traceries which are "tier 13" (as marked by the number 13 on the tracery itself), are useable between character levels 121 and 140. This means at level 141 and above, you will no longer gain the benefit from them, this is quite some time away, so not something you need to worry about for the time being.

On the point of enhancements...

You upgrade the item level of the SLOT the tracery is put into, and NOT the tracery itself - if you replace the tracery at any point, the tracery will take on the level of the slot (except in cases where the tracery itself has a higher item level). Our current tier 13 traceries have a starting item level of 400. This means our slots get automatically put to item level 400, using enhancement runes raises this item level and in turn increases the effectiveness* of the tracery. Currently, when appraising, we are given purple and teal enhancement runes, enough so that you can take the tracery slot to item level 440, CURRENTLY, the max level we can raise these to is 449, the only way CURRENTLY, to raise our traceries to 449 is either with gold enhancement runes (dropping from certain t3 and above content and some book/unique quests), or with 2 mithril coins per item level - 18 mithril coins for item level 440 > 449 PER tracery slot.

When we get to Gundabad, and over a period of time, eventually our tier 13 traceries will be increased to have a maximum level of 499, which will match the Gundabad tier 14 traceries. The only difference here is, tier 14 traceries from Gundabad will be able to be used between character levels 131 and 150, whereas our tier 13 traceries will stop working at character level 141.



*Note; increasing the item level only enhances stat related bonuses provided by traceries and NOT percentage based bonuses. Percentage based bonuses are only altered by the rarity of the tracery itself (green, purple, teal, gold).

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What about characters who just got their LI, playing the game to cap, maybe reaching 140 end of next year. How do they get 121-140 traceries? Remember, before they start MM they will get lower traceries. We look at this from our appraised LI goodies, but new characters to this and higher ranges will not have that advantage.

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Originally Posted by Waylock

So when you level up during a fight, you suddenly end up with a powerless LI, as all traceries are switched off?
Must be even more fun than suddenly dropping my Hytbold gear in the thick of a fight some years ago...

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I guess not upgrading your LI's at all in 20+ levels is a bad idea then, huh?

I believe this thread shows quite clearly just how much this new LI revamp did NOT simplify the LI process. I'm more confused than ever.

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Originally Posted by Waylock

So when you level up during a fight, you suddenly end up with a powerless LI, as all traceries are switched off?
Must be even more fun than suddenly dropping my Hytbold gear in the thick of a fight some years ago...

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Sure.... you only had like 10 levels to update your traceries and you also got additional dps by reforging in between which wont be switched off.
"powerless" - holy batman overreaction - it is not like it gets replaced with a frying pan or a laddle.

The armor switching off will still affect you more if the whole set gets disabled than your out-levelled traceries would. These wont add much stats anymore at that point compared to other gear sources.

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Originally Posted by wispsong

What about characters who just got their LI, playing the game to cap, maybe reaching 140 end of next year. How do they get 121-140 traceries?

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Easily.

It takes 2750 Ancient Script to completely replace the traceries of two LI's with a new tier. If you can obtain two Tracery Reclamation Scrolls by "end of next year" you can ash the ones you have, gaining (minimum) 460 Script. So now you need (at most) 2290. Over a year, that's less than 45 Script per week, and there are *daily* solo quests that give 80+.

If MM is any indication, the solo instances you do as part of the leveling story will drop multiple traceries. Each tracery drop you can use cuts the number by a further 100-200 Script.

It's really silly to think you can play a whole year and not get tracery rewards you can use, and sufficient Script to fill in any gaps.

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Originally Posted by Waylock

So when you level up during a fight, you suddenly end up with a powerless LI, as all traceries are switched off?
Must be even more fun than suddenly dropping my Hytbold gear in the thick of a fight some years ago...

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If you leave it untouched that long, no, it won't be powerless. It will lose the traceries, but not the main stat of the item itself. For example, my hunter's bow will lose quite a bit of physical mastery, vitality, crit rating, and individual skill bonuses, assuming I leave it untouched until the next level cap, but it will never lose the 4666 DPS. Unlikely to be great fun to lose that in the middle of a fight, but not *powerless*.

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Originally Posted by DanteIL

I believe this thread shows quite clearly just how much this new LI revamp did NOT simplify the LI process. I'm more confused than ever.

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It simplified it in the sense that dps grows with us through reforge, so we can just forget about it otherwise, no more grind here. This might even be enough to play landscape from Moria-cap without having to worry about traceries. Alll the different additional aspects besides dps/hps and legacies, now traceries are gone as well like relics and titles. So it is easier to understand from the start.
But as far as we know right now there is no progression path concerning traceries for landscape players. Besides RNG drops everything seems to be locked behind end game. So while we are supposedly able to play without traceries, we have empty slots or they are filled with non-desirable traceries which is very discouraging.

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Originally Posted by LagunaD2

Easily.

It takes 2750 Ancient Script to completely replace the traceries of two LI's with a new tier. If you can obtain two Tracery Reclamation Scrolls by "end of next year" you can ash the ones you have, gaining (minimum) 460 Script. So now you need (at most) 2290. Over a year, that's less than 45 Script per week, and there are *daily* solo quests that give 80+.

If MM is any indication, the solo instances you do as part of the leveling story will drop multiple traceries. Each tracery drop you can use cuts the number by a further 100-200 Script.

It's really silly to think you can play a whole year and not get tracery rewards you can use, and sufficient Script to fill in any gaps.

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And this is the problem. I do NOT have the time nor the will to play end game on every character I ever make. You again point to dailies/weeklies. I want to know where I can get AS and traceries in a high enough amount through landscape story questing.

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Originally Posted by wispsong

And this is the problem. I do NOT have the time nor the will to play end game on every character I ever make. You again point to dailies/weeklies. I want to know where I can get AS and traceries in a high enough amount through landscape story questing.

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Crafted weapons should be fine then.

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Originally Posted by LagunaD2

Crafted weapons should be fine then.

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Sadly, will classes do not have that option. No books, RK items, staves. My mini might be able to get away with it.

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Originally Posted by Elaelin

Do traceries stop functioning when a character exceeds the maximum level stated on the tracery?

Thank you for helping. :)

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yes, as traceries have a maximum level, if you are say level 95 that is last level your current traceries will be effective, so once you hit level 96 you will need start getting new traceries, now your Legendary item should still be able to deal damage, you just won't get any benefits from the old traceries until you get new ones, at least this is how i understand it, I haven't been to this point yet.

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Originally Posted by wispsong

Sadly, will classes do not have that option. No books, RK items, staves. My mini might be able to get away with it.

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Possibly the "reward track" that hasn't been instituted will be the solution. Quests all over the place are still granting Legendary XP and they probably aren't going to change that since Legendary Item XP is being repurposed for this "reward track"

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+Cord of the Rings Friday Stream + Vastin Interview Summary: 9/10/2021, September 10th 2021

Question: Once these new LIs debut, you won't be able to get the Old LIs?

- Vastin Answer: "All the old stuff is gonna stop dropping pretty much. The only major thing from the Old System that is gonna keep dropping are the iXP, you are gonna get iXP from things that gave you iXP before and the iXP Runes are going to continue to drop. There is going to be a period where that's not very useful, might as well bank them. There is a plan, it won't be for the immediate Launch of 30.3 but with 31 were gonna be introducing this Reward Track that Players can use that will eat their iXP. Your Weapon no longer eats you iXP directly in this System because you just level it up with Reforging but there will be this new UI called the Reward Track, Legendary Reward Track which eats your iXP and gives you a Reward every x beats and that will tend to be Runes, Traceries, Tracery Tokens, and other LI Goodies and occasionally Non-LI related Goodies but mostly LI stuff."

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Originally Posted by Starsmith

Possibly the "reward track" that hasn't been instituted will be the solution. Quests all over the place are still granting Legendary XP and they probably aren't going to change that since Legendary Item XP is being repurposed for this "reward track"

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Sounds very RNG to me. And I won't be buying Gundabad before it's in the store. So maybe my lower characters can benefit from it.

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Originally Posted by Pontin_Finnberry

yes, as traceries have a maximum level, if you are say level 95 that is last level your current traceries will be effective, so once you hit level 96 you will need start getting new traceries

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I think the intent is that you'll have already acquired some traceries that will work in the next level range before you get to the point where the ones you already have are deactivating.

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Originally Posted by wispsong

Sounds very RNG to me. And I won't be buying Gundabad before it's in the store. So maybe my lower characters can benefit from it.

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That's my hope. One reason I'm holding off judgement on the grindyness of the new items, since it's obviously not finished yet. The IXP rewards are certainly not going to be good enough for anyone to max their weapons out, but I am at least somewhat optimistic that they'll let people who just do quests and landscape get something decent out of it.

Unless the 50 to 100 landscape environment changes after this you can still ignore LIs, like you could before, but flame/save any traceries you find along the way for AS or the ability to make some when needed at 100+. Only if it starts to matter do you you need to invest in them.

The landscape player should recognise that there are landscape difficulty instances now you can do duo/solo set to the bottom of your "range" and get traceries/enhancements. Discover and try out Stair solo at 130 (no choice) for an easy one. Stop thinking they are the exclusive domain of raiders/groupers. More landscape with a roof and no others about getting in you way and killing your mob before you can tag them. Having an Epic Quest tag gets you motivated to go into an instance, consider it an investment to better prepare to do Epics of the future.

They'll be easier to do so long as you don't step into the next "range" and have to do them on level as it seems to stand now. If you have enough to proceed after appraisals then you can figure out what you might need in terms of Ancient Scripts for replacements nearing the 140 cap and do some of these until you have all you need for bartering the next tier. Never buy enhancement with Scripts, just the next tracery tier up getting slotted will up the slot's rank.

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Originally Posted by Waylock

So when you level up during a fight, you suddenly end up with a powerless LI, as all traceries are switched off?
Must be even more fun than suddenly dropping my Hytbold gear in the thick of a fight some years ago...

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Well. Yes. But you will have between now and the release of the expansion AFTER Gundabad, to change your traceries where necessary, if all else fails you can go and buy the purple ones for AS.

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Originally Posted by wispsong

What about characters who just got their LI, playing the game to cap, maybe reaching 140 end of next year. How do they get 121-140 traceries? Remember, before they start MM they will get lower traceries. We look at this from our appraised LI goodies, but new characters to this and higher ranges will not have that advantage.

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So. You need to keep in mind these level ranges overlap, we have 121-140 traceries and with Gundabad we will have 131-50 traceries, so the levels 131-140 will overlap between tiers 13/14, meaning either will be good enough to use. Currently, there are several book and unique line landscape quests that drop tracery boxes (although these provide you with a random tracery rather than being a tracery selection box, which, imo should be changed), you can also find them from weeklies and dailies. There is some belief that the new "reward track" type system will also reward traceries.

If you do not particularly care about having specifically "teal or better" traceries on your LIs, then buying the equivalent green or purple traceries for ancient script only should be very cheap, but yes, this will mean you are more than likely going to have to play through some form of group content in order to acquire enough, but it shouldn't be a hell of a lot. Similarily if you do not care about enhancing the traceries, especially now, changing a tier 13 to tier 14 tracery will automatically take the item level from 400 to 450.

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Originally Posted by wispsong

Sounds very RNG to me. And I won't be buying Gundabad before it's in the store. So maybe my lower characters can benefit from it.

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Normally it's higher level characters making it easier for lower level characters with the resources they have compiled. For you it could be the traceries you find questing on lower levels supplying the scripts you need for the 131+ game so long as you save enough on that char for the 100+ switch over. :)

Imagine if, on our old Imbued LIs, every level cap the legacies just disappeared, and we had to level a bunch of trash LIs just to re-find the legacies to put the exact same ones back on at a slightly higher level of effectiveness.

That's about how fun this new system is, grinding with massive RNG, disenchanting the litany of traceries that *nobody* should ever add to their weapon (and shouldn't really exist in the first place, if the devs actually played LOTRO), only to get a small amount of currency.

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Originally Posted by Frisco

Imagine if, on our old Imbued LIs, every level cap the legacies just disappeared, and we had to level a bunch of trash LIs just to re-find the legacies to put the exact same ones back on at a slightly higher level of effectiveness.

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If this would have saved me the scrolls and crystals grind I would be all for it.
And btw the legacies would not have disappeared every level cap but only the second level cap increase after the current one.

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Originally Posted by Cordovan

The Tracery will no longer offer its bonus, whether you want to call it "deactivated" or not is up to you I guess. The end result is the same. The iLevel of the Tracery would still have a maximum usage level regardless of how it interacts with enhancement runes.

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This explains why I have to switch to my old LIs when im doing Big Battles. I think this is a unrefined system.

What about Rune Keepers Stones, we only have Frost damage, will we be getting Fire/lightning damage stones?

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Originally Posted by Steelfist

What about Rune Keepers Stones, we only have Frost damage, will we be getting Fire/lightning damage stones?

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Stone damage is only relevant to your melee auto-attacks. The skills themselves have their own damage types which are irrespective of the stones damage type.

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Originally Posted by monk_tbd

If this would have saved me the scrolls and crystals grind I would be all for it.
And btw the legacies would not have disappeared every level cap but only the second level cap increase after the current one.

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Yeah, at least we lost the crystal grind, even if the SoE/ehnancement grind was a wash. Though they could probably have easily found a way to get rid of crystals on imbued LIs and tied weapon damage to character level.

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Originally Posted by Brutis

This explains why I have to switch to my old LIs when im doing Big Battles. I think this is a unrefined system.

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They messed up the scaling on new LIs, it's not due to deactivated traceries. The item level is set to 1. Like beginner weapon. They fixed it kind of, but you'll have to wait for your next reforge, which could be months for some people.

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Originally Posted by CloudCastle

When you say that a tracery "will no longer offer its bonus" that means that all the stats on it will be set to zero, correct? Or do you mean that there is some set amount that stays and some additional amount that is a "bonus" that goes?

For example:

-x seconds to skill cooldown
+ 10,000 tactical mastery
+ 1000 will


Since enhancement runes only effect the last two stats, are they the "bonus" or is the whole tracery the "bonus?"

I think you are saying that the whole tracery will effectively get reset to zero stats (all three numbers) but this isn't totally clear. Will a tracery "losing its bonus" be obvious when you look at it? Will it turn red or something like that?

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Thank you for asking this, this is exactly what I am confused about as well

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Originally Posted by Starsmith

If you leave it untouched that long, no, it won't be powerless. It will lose the traceries, but not the main stat of the item itself. For example, my hunter's bow will lose quite a bit of physical mastery, vitality, crit rating, and individual skill bonuses, assuming I leave it untouched until the next level cap, but it will never lose the 4666 DPS. Unlikely to be great fun to lose that in the middle of a fight, but not *powerless*.

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OK, it might be my lack of understanding (English is not my primary language).

You say that traceries will function into the next level range? Or that there is overlap, and you can upgrade them before you hit the limit?
In that case it's indeed less of an issue than your equipment falling off.

Still, on a minstrel or rune keeper, the base DPS of your weapon is totally irrelevant; all your power comes from the bonuses of your traceries

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Originally Posted by Waylock

You say that traceries will function into the next level range? Or that there is overlap, and you can upgrade them before you hit the limit? In that case it's indeed less of an issue than your equipment falling off.

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It works like this:
If your tracery is from the level 121-130 range then it will be active through the 131-140 range but will de-activate when you hit level 141.

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Originally Posted by Waylock

OK, it might be my lack of understanding (English is not my primary language).

You say that traceries will function into the next level range? Or that there is overlap, and you can upgrade them before you hit the limit?
In that case it's indeed less of an issue than your equipment falling off.

Still, on a minstrel or rune keeper, the base DPS of your weapon is totally irrelevant; all your power comes from the bonuses of your traceries

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Yes, the traceries will function into the next level range. If you are playing on a Legendary server and your level cap is, for example, 120, you'll be able to obtain traceries that stop functioning at 131. In such a case, the next cap on a legendary server will be 130...which means you will have a good chunk of time to get new traceries that will function until 141 before the level cap is extended to 140 and you are at risk of your traceries deactivating.

This means that practically speaking, if you are playing actively, the only time you'll encounter deactivating traceries is if the servers are at a different level cap than the levels you are passing through. Players on live who just start out with their legendaries might have their traceries deactivate at 96 if they don't get any new ones, but 45-96 is a good long stretch. Players playing the most recent content, whether in legendary servers or live, should not have to worry too much about their traceries deactivating.

So essentially, we have to remake our LI's by replacing/upgrading all the traceries every level cap increase going forward, like we used to do before imbuement at the 60, 65, 75, 85, 95, and 100 caps?
The difference being now that we get to keep the ranks of the Tracery SLOTS themselves, so we don't need to re-apply enhancement runes/scrolls of empowerments/crystals.

But, the big headache of the traceries/legacies rebuilding process seems to have come back. that was an advantage of imbuement, we only had to do that once at the beginning and for 7 years from 2014-2021 all we had to do was put on crystals, scrolls, and 4 relics, rather than almost a dozen traceries.

I'm not sure how much an improvement this is TBH. certainly, it is an improvement for new players, alts, returning players, but over time those new players and returning players will hopefully transition to regular/consistent players and it overall seems like more work, just in the sense of having to get the class-specific traceries and other traceries every time the level cap goes up (with exception of this upcoming Gundabad release, thank you so much for making the exception!)

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Originally Posted by Daniyel

So essentially, we have to remake our LI's by replacing/upgrading all the traceries every level cap increase going forward, like we used to do before imbuement at the 60, 65, 75, 85, 95, and 100 caps?
The difference being now that we get to keep the ranks of the Tracery SLOTS themselves, so we don't need to re-apply enhancement runes/scrolls of empowerments/crystals.

But, the big headache of the traceries/legacies rebuilding process seems to have come back. that was an advantage of imbuement, we only had to do that once at the beginning and for 7 years from 2014-2021 all we had to do was put on crystals, scrolls, and 4 relics, rather than almost a dozen traceries.

I'm not sure how much an improvement this is TBH. certainly, it is an improvement for new players, alts, returning players, but over time those new players and returning players will hopefully transition to regular/consistent players and it overall seems like more work, just in the sense of having to get the class-specific traceries and other traceries every time the level cap goes up (with exception of this upcoming Gundabad release, thank you so much for making the exception!)

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I think you are wrong about how enhacement runes work (although maybe I'm also wrong but I think not). Basically enhancement runes are completely skippable because this is the "catch up" mechanic. As far as I understand, for example, Morgul traceries go until 449 rank or whatever you want to call it (I know it's until 499 for transition sake but keep reading), but as I say, Morgul traceries start at rank 400, and Gundabad traceries will start at rank 450 (afaik). This means that you can slot Morgul traceries and add enhancements until 449 or just slot Gundabad traceries and they will be 450 and no need to add any runes. So in the future, next tier will start at rank 500 and you can completely skip Gundabad. The fact that enhancement runes upgrade the slot and not the tracery is so the progress done in the tracery is not lost if you replace it.

So basically if we understand traceries = legacies and enhancement runes = scrolls, then they made the scrolls grind optional, but now the grind is having to grind the "legacies" like in the old times, with the difference that in old times, legacies came by default and if you wanted your desired legacies you just needed to deconstruct a few LIs and done, you can have it done in just 1h or even less if you are lucky. In new system you need to grind +10 traceries, and you are forced to do it because if not, then your LI will become what we could call a "normal weapon", like just dps but nothing else. This is basically a nerf in comparison with imbued system but I guess they have to force people to grind no matter what. People is still kind of blind because the system is new and they have kinda free weapons but give it time. It is a help for returning players who want to play again with the main and they are years behind. But it's a pain for people with many alts. Just imagine having to farm +10 traceries with 10 characters ...

@Soltasword who just posted while I was writting this :D "I see a mad rush to the store to buy the xp-disabler in the near future. Now if we only had a second pocket to carry that in." - bought 8 stones of tortoise when getting the new LIs :D

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Originally Posted by wispsong

And this is the problem. I do NOT have the time nor the will to play end game on every character I ever make. You again point to dailies/weeklies. I want to know where I can get AS and traceries in a high enough amount through landscape story questing.

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At the moment, you can't. The drop rate for traceries on landscape is completely abysmal. And the only way to get AS to replace your USELESS traceries is to get those traceries to begin with. But unless you run instances, raids, dailies/weeklies every single day, you won't get enough AS to replace your now USELESS traceries when you need to if you just play landscape. So, say hello to just running instances and goodbye to doing landscape. I see a mad rush to the store to buy the xp-disabler in the near future. Now if we only had a second pocket to carry that in.

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Originally Posted by soltasword

At the moment, you can't. The drop rate for traceries on landscape is completely abysmal. And the only way to get AS to replace your USELESS traceries is to get those traceries to begin with. But unless you run instances, raids, dailies/weeklies every single day, you won't get enough AS to replace your now USELESS traceries when you need to if you just play landscape. So, say hello to just running instances and goodbye to doing landscape. I see a mad rush to the store to buy the xp-disabler in the near future. Now if we only had a second pocket to carry that in.

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It probably won't be a problem before 151, maybe even later because I still have plenty of AS from appraisal. But it worries me.

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Originally Posted by Fegefeuer

@Soltasword who just posted while I was writting this :D "I see a mad rush to the store to buy the xp-disabler in the near future. Now if we only had a second pocket to carry that in." - bought 8 stones of tortoise when getting the new LIs :D

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While they have only used them rarely, most, if not all, of my chars have the tortoise stone. Thank goodness, as my changed circumstances prohibit spending money on the game. I would truly be SOL if I had to go get them now.

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Originally Posted by wispsong

It probably won't be a problem before 151, maybe even later because I still have plenty of AS from appraisal. But it worries me.

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But it's a problem for every character that didn't have a LI to appraise at all. There are just not enough drops of traceries on landscape. And unless you run instances, dailies, missions everyday, you most likely aren't going to get enough ancient script to replace your traceries when they become USELESS. And you shouldn't have to run those just for a set of common/tier 1 traceries. They should be readily available running landscape. But they aren't.

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Originally Posted by soltasword

But it's a problem for every character that didn't have a LI to appraise at all. There are just not enough drops of traceries on landscape. And unless you run instances, dailies, missions everyday, you most likely aren't going to get enough ancient script to replace your traceries when they become USELESS. And you shouldn't have to run those just for a set of common/tier 1 traceries. They should be readily available running landscape. But they aren't.

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They should have bottom tier traceries dropping like third age LI did previously. Maybe they need to create a "tier 0" tracery (grey) to fill that role.

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Originally Posted by DKenny

They should have bottom tier traceries dropping like third age LI did previously. Maybe they need to create a "tier 0" tracery (grey) to fill that role.

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It is still a nerf in the percentages. If you compare imbued with new system, green traceries are a nerf, and purple traceries are also a nerf for any person who used empowerments and maxed or near maxed the LIs. Purple traceries are only okay for characters who never used any empowerment at all. I don't recall the exact comparison but you can do anytime in the game. Just go to the library and compare imbued legacies with traceries percentages and you'll notice.

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Originally Posted by soltasword

But it's a problem for every character that didn't have a LI to appraise at all. There are just not enough drops of traceries on landscape. And unless you run instances, dailies, missions everyday, you most likely aren't going to get enough ancient script to replace your traceries when they become USELESS. And you shouldn't have to run those just for a set of common/tier 1 traceries. They should be readily available running landscape. But they aren't.

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I totally agree with you. It is a flaw in the system. But for lots of us it will not become a problem before we spend all our AS from appraisal. For players on the legendary servers though...they start from scrap.

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Originally Posted by DKenny

They should have bottom tier traceries dropping like third age LI did previously. Maybe they need to create a "tier 0" tracery (grey) to fill that role.

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With 4 tiers, I don't think we need another. They just need to make the lowest color available that way. Most players want better anyways and play end game. And those who pay real money won't be happy with yellow anyways.

They need to stop acting like landscape questers don't deserve anything but the least effective equipment without any way of improving. I'm sure that's why they killed guild crafting and connected their crafting update to end game requiring insane numbers of mats.

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Originally Posted by wispsong

With 4 tiers, I don't think we need another. They just need to make the lowest color available that way. Most players want better anyways and play end game. And those who pay real money won't be happy with yellow anyways.

They need to stop acting like landscape questers don't deserve anything but the least effective equipment without any way of improving. I'm sure that's why they killed guild crafting and connected their crafting update to end game requiring insane numbers of mats.

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Sure. I certainly wouldn't object to the existing yellow traceries filling that role. I was just suggesting that, based on their calculations of how much grinding they want players to have to do, if yellow is too good to drop so easily there could be something super accessible to fill that role. The point is, players shouldn't be in the position of being unable to fill the slots in their new LI when their old ones are disabled due to level, even if they only do landscape / storyline quests.

Basically they do act as if "landscape questers don't deserve anything but the least effective equipment without any way of improving." Those shilling for the company have posted many times that reforging for DPS alone is sufficient.

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Originally Posted by DKenny

Those shilling for the company have posted many times that reforging for DPS alone is sufficient.

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That's not a LI then, it's just a normal weapon with a custom name :D if they have said this, it's amazing!

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Originally Posted by Fegefeuer

That's not a LI then, it's just a normal weapon with a custom name :D if they have said this, it's amazing!

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Well, for example this post:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

They get deactivated but honestly you barely feel it when levelling since you get the ability to reforge at the lockout level. So %'s drop...but for the most part damage goes up anyway.

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The "they" getting deactivated being referred to are traceries. So in other words, the claim is that simply reforging to increase the dps is more than sufficient to offset traceries becoming disabled due to the character exceeding the level range on them. Not an unique comment, just an example. According to a certain segment of players, casuals only need the dps so it's OK if they cannot get any traceries.

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Originally Posted by DKenny

The "they" getting deactivated being referred to are traceries. So in other words, the claim is that simply reforging to increase the dps is more than sufficient to offset traceries becoming disabled due to the character exceeding the level range on them. Not an unique comment, just an example. According to a certain segment of players, casuals only need the dps so it's OK if they cannot get any traceries.

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Yes, and these players keep ignoring the fact that percentages are not only dps increase. There are percentages related to induction reduction, character speed etc and those are nerfed and when traceries deactivate you get nerfed, in fact players will get nerfed in this no matter what because even raiders cannot get gold traceries in day 1 of expansion release so if raiders have gold traceries with top percentages they will see their skills nerfed, like sneak speed or induction reduction to name a few. And the fact that "casuals don't need this" is poor argument, I still use central gondor essences for fun purposes and one of the best essences ever made is that of guardian giving chance to movement speed buff after killing a mob, it's so much fun to do low lvl slayer deeds with that essence! This just been proof that things like speed buffs/induction reduction/etc are also wanted by casuals, just another example, the class I less play is LM because I really dislike inductions, there is a tracery that shorten the induction, if I get nerfed in this everytime the level cap raises and traceries are deactivated, I'd rather just stop playing that class. I play alts as casual and mostly solo play and when I check for builds, the pro raiders build are focused in different playstyles depending raid requeriment, in my case I mix builds and I pay a lot of attention to buffs like speed/induction/etc because I enjoy playing like this. For example, All the classes that can have a speed duration tracery or whatever, I've slotted that even if pro builds say it's useless. Or sneak speed in burg, or sneak speed in warden too iirc. Do I need that to play? No, but it's my playstyle, and getting nerfed in playstyle just leads to stop playing... or at least, cap the characters with tortoise so at least I can enjoy my playstyle without leveling up anymore.

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Originally Posted by Fegefeuer

Yes, and these players keep ignoring the fact that percentages are not only dps increase. There are percentages related to induction reduction, character speed etc and those are nerfed and when traceries deactivate you get nerfed, in fact players will get nerfed in this no matter what because even raiders cannot get gold traceries in day 1 of expansion release so if raiders have gold traceries with top percentages they will see their skills nerfed, like sneak speed or induction reduction to name a few. And the fact that "casuals don't need this" is poor argument, I still use central gondor essences for fun purposes and one of the best essences ever made is that of guardian giving chance to movement speed buff after killing a mob, it's so much fun to do low lvl slayer deeds with that essence! This just been proof that things like speed buffs/induction reduction/etc are also wanted by casuals, just another example, the class I less play is LM because I really dislike inductions, there is a tracery that shorten the induction, if I get nerfed in this everytime the level cap raises and traceries are deactivated, I'd rather just stop playing that class. I play alts as casual and mostly solo play and when I check for builds, the pro raiders build are focused in different playstyles depending raid requeriment, in my case I mix builds and I pay a lot of attention to buffs like speed/induction/etc because I enjoy playing like this. For example, All the classes that can have a speed duration tracery or whatever, I've slotted that even if pro builds say it's useless. Or sneak speed in burg, or sneak speed in warden too iirc. Do I need that to play? No, but it's my playstyle, and getting nerfed in playstyle just leads to stop playing.

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There is also a loss of mastery and crit which is very useful since landscape quest gear just doesn't give enough to come even close to cap. Add the lack of drops for these essences and low ranks on virtues. I really would like to know what they consider a weak, moderate, and strong character to be. I wouldn't dare take any of my alts even with the new LIs into 3 Peaks and Azog because their overall stats are just to bad. Can somebody just coming through MM in quest gear go directly into Gundanad?

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Originally Posted by Fegefeuer

I think you are wrong about how enhancement runes work (although maybe I'm also wrong but I think not). Basically enhancement runes are completely skippable because this is the "catch up" mechanic. As far as I understand, for example, Morgul traceries go until 449 rank or whatever you want to call it (I know it's until 499 for transition sake but keep reading), but as I say, Morgul traceries start at rank 400, and Gundabad traceries will start at rank 450 (afaik). This means that you can slot Morgul traceries and add enhancements until 449 or just slot Gundabad traceries and they will be 450 and no need to add any runes. So in the future, next tier will start at rank 500 and you can completely skip Gundabad. The fact that enhancement runes upgrade the slot and not the tracery is so the progress done in the tracery is not lost if you replace it.

So basically if we understand traceries = legacies and enhancement runes = scrolls, then they made the scrolls grind optional, but now the grind is having to grind the "legacies" like in the old times, with the difference that in old times, legacies came by default and if you wanted your desired legacies you just needed to deconstruct a few LIs and done, you can have it done in just 1h or even less if you are lucky. In new system you need to grind +10 traceries, and you are forced to do it because if not, then your LI will become what we could call a "normal weapon", like just dps but nothing else. This is basically a nerf in comparison with imbued system but I guess they have to force people to grind no matter what. People is still kind of blind because the system is new and they have kinda free weapons but give it time. It is a help for returning players who want to play again with the main and they are years behind. But it's a pain for people with many alts. Just imagine having to farm +10 traceries with 10 characters ...

@Soltasword who just posted while I was writing this :D "I see a mad rush to the store to buy the xp-disabler in the near future. Now if we only had a second pocket to carry that in." - bought 8 stones of tortoise when getting the new LIs :D

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thank you for your insightful explanation. I think you're right about how the runes work. as for the traceries....as Gandalf said, "so do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. all you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you."

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Originally Posted by Fegefeuer

Yes, and these players keep ignoring the fact that percentages are not only dps increase. There are percentages related to induction reduction, character speed etc and those are nerfed and when traceries deactivate you get nerfed,

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Can't say I've had golds getting deactivated on me yet, but so far not been a major issue with the purples/teals being deactivated as the only get deactivated at reforge thresholds. So yes, your % modifiers go down and some minor buffs lose potency but it happens at the same time you gain a large boost. I can't say I noticed any issues on that front whilst levelling, have you been experiencing an issue there yourself?

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Originally Posted by Fegefeuer

in fact players will get nerfed in this no matter what because even raiders cannot get gold traceries in day 1 of expansion release

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Err...you can though. Traceries earned from one expansions level range are useable in the next expansions level range. The only loss is stat-related due to enhancement levels (although 121-140 traceries have the same enhancement cap as 131-150 traceries so no actual stat loss will occur in Gundabad).

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Originally Posted by Fegefeuer

if I get nerfed in this everytime the level cap raises and traceries are deactivated,

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The system has a grace period, if you earned a tracery during one level cap that tracery will still function at the next level cap. You're really only going to see traceries getting deactivated if you're rapidly progressing through multiple level caps (and aren't stopping at each one). Awkward for power levelled toons I grant you, not all that messy on things levelled slowly.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Can't say I've had golds getting deactivated on me yet, but so far not been a major issue with the purples/teals being deactivated as the only get deactivated at reforge thresholds. So yes, your % modifiers go down and some minor buffs lose potency but it happens at the same time you gain a large boost. I can't say I noticed any issues on that front whilst levelling, have you been experiencing an issue there yourself?......

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So at what point are you saying you actually need traceries? For example, with the walls of Moria you get empty LI. Can you go through Moria with empty LI, simply reforging to boost dps at reforge points?

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Originally Posted by DKenny

So at what point are you saying you actually need traceries? For example, with the walls of Moria you get empty LI. Can you go through Moria with empty LI, simply reforging to boost dps at reforge points?

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Pretty sure I got ~2 traceries during Wall of Moria stuff. But yes, you can quite comfortably go through Moria with just that early stuff you get.


Perhaps worth noting that you don't get access to all tracery slots at low levels. The number of slots available increases based on reforge level.

I have a question for the Xperience disablers to get around tracery expiration. Why?

“ @Soltasword who just posted while I was writing this "I see a mad rush to the store to buy the xp-disabler in the near future. Now if we only had a second pocket to carry that in." - bought 8 stones of tortoise when getting the new LIs”

I have chars with them and have used them for specific reasons before.

If you use stones so as to not run repetitive content for AS/traceries (instances) then aren’t you stuck rerunning landscape (or your more favorite instances) content repetitively? I don’t personally see a huge difference as both are boringly repetitive so that is the reason for my question.

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Originally Posted by JERH

I have a question for the Xperience disablers to get around tracery expiration. Why?

“ @Soltasword who just posted while I was writing this "I see a mad rush to the store to buy the xp-disabler in the near future. Now if we only had a second pocket to carry that in." - bought 8 stones of tortoise when getting the new LIs”

I have chars with them and have used them for specific reasons before.

If you use stones so as to not run repetitive content for AS/traceries (instances) then aren’t you stuck rerunning landscape (or your more favorite instances) content repetitively? I don’t personally see a huge difference as both are boringly repetitive so that is the reason for my question.

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I have run a lot of characters up through the lower levels. In the usual run of things, you out-level the area way before you finish it. With that happening, I see my chars getting to content that rewards traceries after the optimal level to use it. The stones may keep our chars working on areas more at-level than we have been, therefore making the tracery drops more appropriate. (at least, that's my hope. It's been years since I've run an area with white mobs)

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Pretty sure I got ~2 traceries during Wall of Moria stuff. But yes, you can quite comfortably go through Moria with just that early stuff you get.


Perhaps worth noting that you don't get access to all tracery slots at low levels. The number of slots available increases based on reforge level.

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That doesn't really answer the question though. Can you literally go through Moria without any traceries? I understand that you're likely to get something along the way. However, the question was to do with a situation where you outlevel your traceries and haven't replaced them. Your claim was that, in that scenario, it's still OK just to reforge - i.e. dps only, no functional tracery (I'm assuming a disabled tracery is the same as no tracery at all).

I just had my first alt complete the new Walls of Moria intro , complete The Great Dwelling quests, and a couple of the initial Moria Epics.

1) Only traceries were received when getting the initial LIs from Hundi in Echad Dunnan (and completing the associated Walls of Moria trip to Rivendell) and Tulk at Durin's Threshhold.
2) Traceries received were: one Heraldry, two Word of Mastery, and a few yellow enhancement runes
3) No infused garnet drops in The Great Dwelling
4) No traceries or tracery boxes issued/earned/dropped
5) No enhancement runes issued/earned/dropped
6) New LI damage and bonuses are roughly equal to a L25 old LI from Hundi and Tulk (compared against another alt on another server that still had their Hundi and Tulk initial old LIs)
7) New LI's damage and bonuses are only slightly better than landscape items earned (either from quests or from the half orcs) in the Wall of Moria intro (checked alts inventory and compared)
8) New LI's damage roughly equal to a L51 crafted weapon with a crafting critical and is worse than a L54 crafted weapon with no critical (checked my weaponsmith alt's recipes for comparison)

At this point, the LI's appear to be customizable and upgradeable landscape weapons, at least at the lower levels. I don't see any real advantage the new LIs have for low level alts unless they have high level support (i.e. higher level alts sharing AS/AS deconstructable traceries, low level traceries, etc....)

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Originally Posted by DKenny

That doesn't really answer the question though. Can you literally go through Moria without any traceries? I understand that you're likely to get something along the way. However, the question was to do with a situation where you outlevel your traceries and haven't replaced them. Your claim was that, in that scenario, it's still OK just to reforge - i.e. dps only, no functional tracery (I'm assuming a disabled tracery is the same as no tracery at all).

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According to Raninia reforging is enough to quest through the zones and from what I have seen levelling several characters before the revamp that is probably true for older content. Where it could get tricky is HD, where we had a severe increase in stats, Mordor and the last zones. MM was surprisingly better tuned for starting 120s then Vales.

Traceries make the LI a legendary, without them we basically have just a dps stick. And the idea that landscape questers should not even think about improving and customizing their character is just plain dismissing of that play style. Essences work the same, RNG drops and no more crafted guild gear point in the same direction. Once the battle track is in we might get a different picture but right now considering the grind to keep up with so many things I can see that eventually reforge will not be enough and I have not much hope that this particular group will ever be permitted again to equip better then RNG drops and quest gear.

I have long ago come to the conclusion that I at one time might not be able to continue landscape questing which has come true with the last 2 zones for my alts. Thankfully there is enough playable content in lower levels.

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Originally Posted by Flaxie

I have run a lot of characters up through the lower levels. In the usual run of things, you out-level the area way before you finish it. With that happening, I see my chars getting to content that rewards traceries after the optimal level to use it. The stones may keep our chars working on areas more at-level than we have been, therefore making the tracery drops more appropriate. (at least, that's my hope. It's been years since I've run an area with white mobs)

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Those are some of the reasons for me to use the stones in the past as well. I have multiple chars abandoned in E/W Rohan. If one is 85 and I don’t want to grind school/woe/library (which I don’t) and I put on a stone what content do I run that would give me a reason to ever play that char again? Wildermore? Hytbold quests again and again and again? I level means I probably have to grind. I don’t level any rewards expire at 86.

Thanks for any opinion.

Oops, my traceries expire at 96 I think. So I don’t have to answer the question for quite a bit. NVM.

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Originally Posted by wispsong

Traceries make the LI a legendary, without them we basically have just a dps stick.

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I'm strongly inclined to think the new LIs are DPS sticks, whether you play landscape or not, until you get close to current level cap (Ironfold, Morgul, and the upcoming Gundabad).

Pretty much everything I see in the new LI system is it is optimized for Gundabad/new level cap play. Everyone else is an afterthought.

My conclusion is based on looking at alts with new/old LI's ranging from completion of Walls of Moria (L48) to current level cap (L130).

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Can't say I've had golds getting deactivated on me yet, but so far not been a major issue with the purples/teals being deactivated as the only get deactivated at reforge thresholds. So yes, your % modifiers go down and some minor buffs lose potency but it happens at the same time you gain a large boost. I can't say I noticed any issues on that front whilst levelling, have you been experiencing an issue there yourself?

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Losing induction reducting or sneak speed has nothing to do with dps, and if I have to choose between losing that and increase dps or maintaining that and losing dps, I prefer losing dps - that's why I don't select all traceries to benefit my dps, I also choose to benefit buffs.

You, me, and nobody has had any issue with traceries deactivating yet because the system is less than 1 month old. We can talk again on 150 cap. Just see beyond your current comfort zone and into the future. Because if even low lvl characters are not getting traceries, I am not sure if they will suffer the grind problem as lvlcap people are going to suffer it. I think grind suffering starts at lvl96+.

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Originally Posted by JERH

I have a question for the Xperience disablers to get around tracery expiration. Why?

“ @Soltasword who just posted while I was writing this "I see a mad rush to the store to buy the xp-disabler in the near future. Now if we only had a second pocket to carry that in." - bought 8 stones of tortoise when getting the new LIs”

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Basically it means that you will control how you level up so you don't get your traceries disabled, it's similar as when the gear has a cap and it gets automatically unequipped (not sure if they have changed this). In my case I'm just retiring those characters because I can't bother to farm traceries with so many characters. I still want to play those characters for fun but I don't want to risk levelling up and then get traceries deactivated, so I just get tortoise stone and that's all.

Imagine people farming School to get traceries at level 150 because when they are 151 they will get the traceries disabled, but the grind is going to take long, and they might level up before getting all replacements, so maybe even people who enjoy farming will have to use tortoise if they don't want to have their traceries disabled while they are farming the new traceries lol

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Originally Posted by wispsong

I have long ago come to the conclusion that I at one time might not be able to continue landscape questing which has come true with the last 2 zones for my alts. Thankfully there is enough playable content in lower levels.

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It's funny because one way to overcome landscape difficulty is to overlevel characters but now it's no longer possible because traceries will get disabled.

For example, my guardian stood at the black gate for years but leveled him with wargpens and tasks items through the time. Some months ago I just played him through Mordor to Vales as a 130 character and it was a fun experience. You can think, if landscape is too hard for you, well, you can get powerlevelled or use tasks. Not the ideal solution but it was a posibility. Not anymore. Obviously this I did wouldn't be possible with the new LIs because the character was 105 at black gate and between that and 130 there are some tiers of traceries that get disabled.

Sorry for too many replies but too many interesting comments :D

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Originally Posted by Fegefeuer

Basically it means that you will control how you level up so you don't get your traceries disabled, it's similar as when the gear has a cap and it gets automatically unequipped (not sure if they have changed this). In my case I'm just retiring those characters because I can't bother to farm traceries with so many characters. I still want to play those characters for fun but I don't want to risk levelling up and then get traceries deactivated, so I just get tortoise stone and that's all.

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You'd have to go through an entire expansions worth of content without picking up replacements before your traceries get disabled. At which point you likely have enough scripts to at least buy the common version of your "must have" stuff.

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Originally Posted by DKenny

That doesn't really answer the question though. Can you literally go through Moria without any traceries? I understand that you're likely to get something along the way. However, the question was to do with a situation where you outlevel your traceries and haven't replaced them. Your claim was that, in that scenario, it's still OK just to reforge - i.e. dps only, no functional tracery (I'm assuming a disabled tracery is the same as no tracery at all).

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Due to some inherent laziness on my part (and a double roll of increased melee range from tracery boxes) I wound up doing 105-121 content without traceries on Brawler and had no issues whatsoever. That was before Brawler DPS got buffed (although it's still utterly incompetent on that front). The DPS rating holds most of the power here, you don't require any tracery at all on landscape. They're a bonus, not a requirement.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

The DPS rating holds most of the power here, you don't require any tracery at all on landscape. They're a bonus, not a requirement.

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Problem is for those of us who play landscape and occasionally Instances and Missions. Basically we are nerfed if we don't already have the traceries needed to survive the Instance or Mission. Not too much of a problem for our level capped alts, but I've never been worried about them.

Problem is traceries aren't dropping at the lower levels, so if we want to run "on level" Instances or Missions at the lower levels, we are stuck using DPS sticks. If that's all we have, then crafted and landscape weapons (from what I can see) are as good as the low level LI weapons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dusalan

Problem is for those of us who play landscape and occasionally Instances and Missions. Basically we are nerfed if we don't already have the traceries needed to survive the Instance or Mission. Not too much of a problem for our level capped alts, but I've never been worried about them.

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Missions are landscape content as far as SSG is concerned. They adhere to landscape scaling.

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Originally Posted by Dusalan

Problem is traceries aren't dropping at the lower levels, so if we want to run "on level" Instances or Missions at the lower levels, we are stuck using DPS sticks. If that's all we have, then crafted and landscape weapons (from what I can see) are as good as the low level LI weapons.

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That's not true, traceries are available at lower levels. Instances drop easily farmed stuff, landscape barters offer the boxes, epics give the boxes, there are some repeatable quests that give out the boxes. Traceries are available at every level range.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Missions are landscape content as far as SSG is concerned. They adhere to landscape scaling.

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Ran L55 to L60 Missions in Annak-Khurfu - some run fine....others...every single MOB in the instance comes running the minute you are loaded into the mission area. I've "died" multiple times trying to survive 15 to 30 trash MOBs and 5 to 10 Elites attacking at the same time. Not fun and definitely not landscape.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

That's not true, traceries are available at lower levels. Instances drop easily farmed stuff, landscape barters offer the boxes, epics give the boxes, there are some repeatable quests that give out the boxes. Traceries are available at every level range.

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Only low level traceries I've found yet are earned running Library and School. Some of the high level dailies and weeklies do also give area level traceries. Given that drops of infused gems in Moria is still broken, that takes the #1 way of earning low level traceries out of commission.

This:

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Originally Posted by wispsong

According to Raninia reforging is enough to quest through the zones....

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and this:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

... The DPS rating holds most of the power here, you don't require any tracery at all on landscape. They're a bonus, not a requirement.

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succinctly summarize the company view - casuals doing landscape don't need traceries, therefore if that's the only content you're doing you should just accept it if you don't get any traceries from that content.

If this is the official company line, why have the new LIs at all for anyone under level cap?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dusalan

Ran L55 to L60 Missions in Annak-Khurfu - some run fine....others...every single MOB in the instance comes running the minute you are loaded into the mission area. I've "died" multiple times trying to survive 15 to 30 trash MOBs and 5 to 10 Elites attacking at the same time. Not fun and definitely not landscape.

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...that's a bug.

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Originally Posted by Dusalan

Only low level traceries I've found yet are earned running Library and School. Some of the high level dailies and weeklies do also give area level traceries. Given that drops of infused gems in Moria is still broken, that takes the #1 way of earning low level traceries out of commission.

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Also a bug.

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Originally Posted by DKenny

succinctly summarize the company view - casuals doing landscape don't need traceries, therefore if that's the only content you're doing you should just accept it if you don't get any traceries from that content.

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Except...you do get traceries. Out of curiosity, have you done any levelling between 45-121 with the new LI system yet?

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Except...you do get traceries. Out of curiosity, have you done any levelling between 45-121 with the new LI system yet?

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Yes....see my post above (quoted below)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dusalan

I just had my first alt complete the new Walls of Moria intro , complete The Great Dwelling quests, and a couple of the initial Moria Epics.

1) Only traceries were received when getting the initial LIs from Hundi in Echad Dunnan (and completing the associated Walls of Moria trip to Rivendell) and Tulk at Durin's Threshhold.
2) Traceries received were: one Heraldry, two Word of Mastery, and a few yellow enhancement runes
3) No infused garnet drops in The Great Dwelling
4) No traceries or tracery boxes issued/earned/dropped
5) No enhancement runes issued/earned/dropped
6) New LI damage and bonuses are roughly equal to a L25 old LI from Hundi and Tulk (compared against another alt on another server that still had their Hundi and Tulk initial old LIs)
7) New LI's damage and bonuses are only slightly better than landscape items earned (either from quests or from the half orcs) in the Wall of Moria intro (checked alts inventory and compared)
8) New LI's damage roughly equal to a L51 crafted weapon with a crafting critical and is worse than a L54 crafted weapon with no critical (checked my weaponsmith alt's recipes for comparison)

At this point, the LI's appear to be customizable and upgradeable landscape weapons, at least at the lower levels. I don't see any real advantage the new LIs have for low level alts unless they have high level support (i.e. higher level alts sharing AS/AS deconstructable traceries, low level traceries, etc....)

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Did a spot check and in Dol Amroth, I can buy a rare L86 tracery box with Dol Amroth Silver Pieces. Doesn't do much for the L45 to L85's. Also checked Moria and Lothlorien and the best I could find was buying Enhancement Runes for Motes in the 21st Hall.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dusalan

Problem is for those of us who play landscape and occasionally Instances and Missions. Basically we are nerfed if we don't already have the traceries needed to survive the Instance or Mission. Not too much of a problem for our level capped alts, but I've never been worried about them.

Problem is traceries aren't dropping at the lower levels, so if we want to run "on level" Instances or Missions at the lower levels, we are stuck using DPS sticks. If that's all we have, then crafted and landscape weapons (from what I can see) are as good as the low level LI weapons.

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First, I agree that the quests/vendors for landscape and questing are woefully behind/missing. I don't like traceries expiring without much more work to satisfy the first sentence.

Just as an example:
Crafted level 85 teal bow 368dps
old LI level 86 bow (@max dmg) 447 dps
New LI 86 bow 551 dps

3 classes (LM, mini, rk) can't use crafted as they don't exist for most levels we are talking about.

Level 80 RK New LI no traceries runs school level 70 T1 3man to loot of 2nd boss (currently always drops 1 purple - apparently sometimes a yellow) in 2 min 36 seconds (with 30.3.2 lags graciously added)
Level 80 RK New LI with mostly yellows, a few purple runs school level 70 T1 3man to loot of 2nd boss in 1 minute 40 seconds.

I don't think 3rd boss drops anything right now when running below level (or below cap or next cap or some rule yet to be delineated successfully).

An AoE class would do better (champ ~1 minute, burglar sneak to 2nd boss could get down as low as 45 seconds). Lower dps/non-AoE classes (aka LM) could take quite a bit longer.

Library is the same just more trash and longer walks. Woe drops a purple on last boss but is a lot more effort.

All of this could change on Wed as I have no idea what the new rules are on tracery drops. Everytime on BR I tried they seemed to change. :(

If you want to run repeatable content it is there starting around the late 50's. If you don't want to run repeatable content (landscape only or landscape/epic only) it is currently very hard to get resources.

There was one person complaining in another thread about resources who wouldn't even do the epic quests. Just landscape. sigh...


Edit: Enedwaith (60-65) purple traceries available for 30 silver coins from legendary vendor rewards for landscape quests and repeatables. runes also available. Nothing in dunland, E Rohan, W Rohan that I saw.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

...that's a bug.... Also a bug....

Except...you do get traceries. Out of curiosity, have you done any levelling between 45-121 with the new LI system yet?

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I have. Started playing about a month ago. Went through entire Volume 2 after the update, did most landscape quests in Moria and Mirkwood (skipped the boring repeatable ones that give almost no rewards) and done the solo instances and a few 3-man group instances that I can solo.
The epic quests gave about 4-5 traceries total. Since they are rng, about 3 were useless for me (blue champ traceries, so they probably wouldn't be useful to anyone). From the solo instances I've done not all give LI items (Chamber of shadows gives only gear). Haven't found any working daily quests that give traceries. There were no drops from landscape connected to the new LI, but there were a lot of obsolete ones.
I currently have about two traceries per item at level 71, and about 300-400 script. Think I got about 60 enhancement runes total.

So, mind telling where exactly did you find these quests and locations that give out traceries? "It's a bug" is not a good answer until there's a time in the new system where these quests/drops actually work, or until we have any notion when they will be fixed.
Honestly, the way this new content was released just looks extremely unprofessional. Especially annoyed by the current state of crafting as I've spent quite a bit of time on leveling all the vocations on alts, and also did the whole snails-pace process of rising the crafting guild reputations. They've attracted the new players with the promotional code and then released this new badly conceived update that left a lot of obsolete content in it, which mainly affect these new players they supposedly wanted. Was planning on buying the expansions, but now I'll think I'll wait until I see how they deal with the current situation.

I ran through the inventory of my Anor (and formerly Ithil) alts that had started Moria and had completed The Great Dwelling questline BEFORE the LI update

It appears that 2 to 3 Infused Garnet drops in The Great Dwelling was typical pre LI Update. Now it is zero.

Checking other alts that have completed Moria and Lothlorien pre LI Update: at least 30 infused Garnets, Sapphires, and Adamants should drop. 30 is the minimum I found in an alt's inventory. Some alts had 50 or more.

Mundgeirr and Fastarr in Dolven-View will each give a Rare Tracery and Enhancement Rune for completion of their Daily. No infused gems, no Daily.

The lack of infused gem drops, as many have noted, is a major bug.

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Originally Posted by Steelfist

What about Rune Keepers Stones, we only have Frost damage, will we be getting Fire/lightning damage stones?

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Damage type on runestones only affects melee auto attacks. In the early years of the game some skills were gated by stone type, eg if wanted to access some heal skills had to have a frost runestone equipped, a fire runestone equipped to access a couple of fire skills etc. This became unworkable when LI were introduced as RKs had to develop 3 runestones to maintain access to all their skills and requiring a specific runestone to access skills was dropped when level cap was 65 iirc. They just never got around to removing the 3 types of runestones.

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Originally Posted by Somnambulist

So, mind telling where exactly did you find these quests and locations that give out traceries?

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https://i.imgur.com/CGobxT9.png

Those can be farmed in Enedwaith. Should be able to do 1-2 boxes per day via dailies there.

86-105 can be earned from Fangorn I believe, one of the vendors there offers the boxes in exchange for the daily currency.

I believe there was a vendor for 101 to 115 traceries in MT somewhere, will admit I rushed that level range a bit.

Udun foothold had a vendor for the 106 to 120 traceries.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

https://i.imgur.com/CGobxT9.png

Those can be farmed in Enedwaith. Should be able to do 1-2 boxes per day via dailies there.

86-105 can be earned from Fangorn I believe, one of the vendors there offers the boxes in exchange for the daily currency.

I believe there was a vendor for 101 to 115 traceries in MT somewhere, will admit I rushed that level range a bit.

Udun foothold had a vendor for the 106 to 120 traceries.

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My spot check of Minas Tirith Before Battle shows only L86 from the Dailies (Rare L86 Tracery from Narnaith - 20 Smiths' Tokens). Main Quest Rewards for Cistern, South Gate, and North Gate: Rare L86 Enhancement Runes only.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

https://i.imgur.com/CGobxT9.png

Those can be farmed in Enedwaith. Should be able to do 1-2 boxes per day via dailies there.

86-105 can be earned from Fangorn I believe, one of the vendors there offers the boxes in exchange for the daily currency.

I believe there was a vendor for 101 to 115 traceries in MT somewhere, will admit I rushed that level range a bit.

Udun foothold had a vendor for the 106 to 120 traceries.

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Do you realize that you are basically pointing to farming in old level areas for things that 1 month ago were almost free and you could obtain in a few minutes?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DKenny

That doesn't really answer the question though. Can you literally go through Moria without any traceries? I understand that you're likely to get something along the way. However, the question was to do with a situation where you outlevel your traceries and haven't replaced them. Your claim was that, in that scenario, it's still OK just to reforge - i.e. dps only, no functional tracery (I'm assuming a disabled tracery is the same as no tracery at all).

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The original legacies at Moria levels had virtually negligible bonuses, didn't they?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fegefeuer

Do you realize that you are basically pointing to farming in old level areas for things that 1 month ago were almost free and you could obtain in a few minutes?

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Yes...used to farm for SoE's (in MT one Anfalas and later ?L63? SoE for 3 Smiths' Tokens - now 20 for a Rare L86 Enhancement Rune or Tracery)….now we get to farm Traceries and Enhancement Runes...except in Moria, Lorien, Mirkwood, and a few other areas are still broken, so you cannot get ANYTHING because you cannot run the Dailies!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LagunaD2

The original legacies at Moria levels had virtually negligible bonuses, didn't they?

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The bonuses they had depended on where you wanted to spend your legacy points based on the legacies and legacy tier you had on the LI.

New traceries don't track that well with old legacies. Some do...others...don't

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dusalan

My spot check of Minas Tirith Before Battle shows only L86 from the Dailies (Rare L86 Tracery from Narnaith - 20 Smiths' Tokens). Main Quest Rewards for Cistern, South Gate, and North Gate: Rare L86 Enhancement Runes only.

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Hm, perhaps it was North Ithilien then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LagunaD2

The original legacies at Moria levels had virtually negligible bonuses, didn't they?

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~15% bonuses on average.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fegefeuer

Do you realize that you are basically pointing to farming in old level areas for things that 1 month ago were almost free and you could obtain in a few minutes?

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Different system, different rules.

In Minas Tirith After Battle (maybe in Before Battle), you can get Rare L101 Traceries and Enhancement Runes from the Pelenor Battle Rewards Vendor (need 15 Morgul Crests for either a Tracery or Enhancement Rune).

Earning Morgul Crests is another "fun" grind I'd rather not do.

More and more I see there is strong incentive in the new LI system to just push everyone to end game. L45 to L85 is largely broken. Advancement through L86 thru L120 is quick enough that you will be overleveled for any area by the time you get there, so the traceries and enhancement runes you earn will be largely useless. The only way you will have anything other than a DPS stick is to cash out any and all traceries for AS and buy "on level" yellow traceries. Once you get to L121...or L131, you start the real work of grinding for purple, teal, and maybe gold.

Other option is buying a Stone from the Store and hang out for while.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LagunaD2

The original legacies at Moria levels had virtually negligible bonuses, didn't they?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

~15% bonuses on average.

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Depends on what was being modified.

1) Base DPS
2) Skill/Spell Damage/Effect
3) Bleed
4) Debuff
5) Cool Down
6) Number of Targets
7) Range
8) Critical Magnitudes
9) A whole bunch of other stuff

They should add tracery boxes (purple?) to mission rewards (complete 15 or 45 missions). There is a legendary box already, I haven't checked what's inside, fearing it still has old items.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Different system, different rules.

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Yeah pretty much this summarizes whole SSG point of view. That's the perfect sentence to justify anything. Lotro gets more P2W? "different system different rules"; Lotro gets more grind? "different system different rules"; Lotro gets broken? "different system different rules".

LI revamp was supposed to help people by reducing the grind and instead we got more grind and what is worse, forced grind. Even in low lvls.

It's pointless, I retire, enjoy your grind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fegefeuer

LI revamp was supposed to help people by reducing the grind and instead we got more grind and what is worse, forced grind. Even in low lvls.

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There's no forced grind. If you want a full suite of traceries, yes, you need to grind a little. If you just want to clear landscape content? You're fine with the misc stuff you pick up along the way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

There's no forced grind. If you want a full suite of traceries, yes, you need to grind a little. If you just want to clear landscape content? You're fine with the misc stuff you pick up along the way.

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There was no "forced grind" with the imbued LI system either. You could just take the tiers unlocked for free and work with that. At least it was easy to get the legacies you wanted. If you wanted to boost the dps, ok a little bit of grinding at festivals - pretty easily accessible for everyone. The point is, people wanted changes to reduce the grind, and that hasn't happened. You simply claiming that players should accept random trash drops doesn't refute the facts. Previously, if people wanted a fully max imbued LI it required a lot of grinding, mostly for scrolls. Now a fully max new LI is completely out of reach for many players and they have to grind just to get the traceries they want, probably yellow maybe purple if they're lucky.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fegefeuer

Yeah pretty much this summarizes whole SSG point of view. That's the perfect sentence to justify anything. Lotro gets more P2W? "different system different rules"; Lotro gets more grind? "different system different rules"; Lotro gets broken? "different system different rules".

LI revamp was supposed to help people by reducing the grind and instead we got more grind and what is worse, forced grind. Even in low lvls.

It's pointless, I retire, enjoy your grind.

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Yep, that's pretty much it. Upon initial introduction, LOTRO f2p was fairly generous. However, as the player population has shrunk they're looking to squeeze more and more. Especially given their system performance issues, one way to address it is fewer players. Getting rid of players who are truly f2p doesn't really cost them anything. So they'll slowly squeeze to do just that, without explicitly doing it.