Welcome back to the Ettenmoors!

In the three months since I teased changes to Monster Play, I went quiet, head down, and hands on keyboard, and while not everything I wanted to do is complete, I do have some items to share about the changes coming to the Ettenmoors! The Ettenmoors occupies a niche role. It is not and never will be the focal point of the game. It is, however, an important piece of the greater whole that sets The Lord of the Rings: Online apart from other MMOs. Monster Play is at a crossroads. We need to solidify its place in the game and give it every opportunity to thrive before making a final decision on how it might be supported moving forward.

Finding Monster Play’s future role in the game is not easy. Not every player is invested in the experience, some flat-out recoil at the mention of PvMP, but those that engage deeply in the experience have done so, loyally, for a very, very long time. After many conversations with Raninia and Severlin, the direction I wanted to take became clearer. The intent with the upcoming changes is to supply support to Monster Play to ensure that it still is another reason to keep playing and a reason to come back.

The changes that follow are all made with these goals in mind.

Monster Play is Free to All

First, Monster Play is going free to all players. Continuing the success of our 15th Anniversary, once you gain level two on any Free Peoples player character, just return to the character generation screen and make any Monster Player character you want. Want to make a Defiler? Free. Warleader? Free. All PvMP classes are free upon reaching level two!

Monster Player Classes Updated

Now that we are making the PvMP classes free, we need to make the classes more accessible and viable at the outset, meaning changes to the initial skill loadouts for all monster classes. The changes focus on providing a better spread of skills more indicative of class gameplay. Each class now starts with eight skills, giving them a better interaction against Freeps.

Rank requirements- while still an important aspect of monster advancement- for Monster Player skills are reduced to a max Rank of five for all Monster Classes. This change should make it easier to attain a fully realized Monster Player character.

To further incentivize Monster Play, we are adjusting the first quests and accomplishments to reward the ‘Map to Gramsfoot’ - a necessity in the Monster Player experience - and adding updated accomplishment rewards to provide Monster Players with four items that grant a rank of Audacity each.

We’ve also increased the amount of ‘Commendations’ an account can carry to 20,000 and added a set of tasks unique to defeating enemies throughout the Ettenmoors to inspire more battles.

Audacity Changes

Audacity has been reimagined and made more important than ever! Each side in the Ettenmoors now has 36 Ranks of Audacity. Free Players get Audacity through the acquisition of gear, including a new set of armour and jewellery available for ‘Commendations’ at Glân Vraig. Monster Players earn Ranks of Audacity by spending ‘Commendations’ at their Corruptors within Gramsfoot.

Because of the reliance and necessity of Audacity, we have reduced the cost to train Audacity from Ranks 1-24. The reduction reflects the need to move to Rank 25 quickly, overcoming the negative impact to outgoing damage and increased incoming damage. At Rank 25 Audacity, all players reach parity and break even with neither bonus nor negative impact. From 26 to 36, there are incremental gains improving the outgoing damage and reducing incoming damage.

Moving forward, you will need Audacity to survive in the Ettenmoors, and to augment that need we have added new tinctures that increase Audacity by 5 Ranks for 60 minutes of real-time. Tinctures be acquired for either ‘Commendations’ or Mithril Coins at barter NPCs found at the respective main bases. These tinctures stack to ten and have a cooldown of 60 minutes to match their duration. The tinctures are not bound by your Rank in PvMP.

Store Updates

We are adding new racial, class skill, and corruption bundles to the store at a reduced cost to encourage new Monster Players.

And for the discerning elder Monster Players, we are adding a new appearance for each Monster Player Class!

Heal Tagging is Removed

Lastly, the practice known as “heal tagging” is gone. Players outside of fellowship or raids no longer earn infamy/renown or ‘Commendations’ when healing a player who defeated an opponent in the Ettenmoors. To get recognition for the defeat, a player must deal at least 2% of the damage to the target or be part of the fellowship or raid that defeats the target.

There is a known issue with the heal tagging fix right now that we are working and it may not be present in the BUllroarer preview uploaded in the next day or so. We are working to ensure that it is fixed for the next iteration of Bullroarer and certainly for the release of the next live update.

Conclusion

The Ettenmoors is changing, and we hope for the better! What I am really hoping for is a reinvigorated experience that drives players and monster players into conflict more often. If we get the fun right and players return to the Ettenmoors more often then we will have moved beyond the crossroads and have a clear path toward the future.

Welcome back to the Ettenmoors!

reavers are insane

Sounds great. Can't wait to see what the new skins look like. I've got lots of LP I need to spend on something... :cool:

All of the changes look good, which is the first time I can say that about anything coming out of SSG...

however, nothing you changed really tackles the core issues, so you're really just trading one problem for another.

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Removing heal tagging? fantastic.... but now its just a zergball meta where everyone is heavily incentivized to group into one gigantic ball for maximum point values, since the point distribution system still rewards that behavior.


All the buffs to creep skill? nice! but all those debuffs are cureable, and freep cures are so strong that with a certain group comp, everything gets insta-cured by AOE curative skills that are on extremely low cooldowns... or like champion, are just flat out immune.


Making all the creep classes free? good idea! but hold on... multiboxing is still allowed according to the rules... so its going to be boxer city out there (it was already, but now its gonna be big).


Keep changes? good! but freeps can still w-key through them all with their insane cooldowns and healing.


Creep cure! finally! but its on defiler, the most disgustingly overplay overstacked class in the moors next to blackarrow, while warleader changes are not enough to break it out of its c-tier category.



Let me be clear... as someone who historically has been very critical of a lot of SSG decisions regarding PVMP.... all of your changes are good changes.... just not hitting any real problem areas... nothing will fundamentally change, and those people who do log in to check it out will be disappointed to see things playing out identical to how they were before.

How many commedations does it take for each rank of audacity and have you changed or supplemented the way comms are generated? I play on Ark, the idea that I would have a chance to quest for audacity without getting constantly camped by freeps is very unlikely and there are hardly any creep leaders anymore that will group people up except if you are at least r5, some not till r7. Where are the changes to Keeps, the DOF, or the other stuff you mentioned in your thread? All its seems you've done is make the rich richer, those that can generate comms, and the poor poorer, newbs and casual soloists who already struggle with the 6k per rank of audacity to cap. And now you've added 11 more in the hopes we spend mithril on temporary boosts? I don't understand, maybe I'm not seeing everything. Aren't all creep skills already available by r5? It barely matters because the comm grind is so brutal, you can't get the skills.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

...Welcome back to the Ettenmoors!

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Are the changes you mentioned for OC/EC, Delving, OPs, & Keeps still happening?

Going free to play is great!

Could we get carry-alls for moors items? They take up a LOT of bag space which makes it harder to switch back and forth between PVE and PVP.

This is probably a rhetorical question, but I have to ask it. Will there be any compensation for comms already spent?

It took 85,000 commendations to get 25 audacity on a single creep, multiply that by 6 creeps and it's 510,000 per player. That's a huge amount of grind.
Now we're being told that up to 24 is basically free, and we have to spend hundreds of thousands more which we no longer have just to get back to where we were. If it's the same 6000/7500 per rank as before, that's approximately another 400,000 to 500,000 per player!
Since those comms have already been spent it would be great if existing audacity ranks were scaled up to the new ones. Currently 1-13 are almost free and 14+ is very expensive, so any creep with rank 14+ audacity could just have 11 added to their current value and be back to what they'd originally paid for, with no loss or gain relative to new players.


It's great that creep classes are opening up, but with Defilers and Warleaders being free this will make massive rank farming even easier than it was before, and with new things to spend comms on it's guaranteed certain people will be doing it. Will anything be done about cheaters or will it continue to be the wild west out there with all COC/TOS violations being ignored?

thanks for this work, sounds great

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Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers

however, nothing you changed really tackles the core issues, so you're really just trading one problem for another.

Removing heal tagging? fantastic.... but now its just a zergball meta where everyone is heavily incentivized to group into one gigantic ball for maximum point values, since the point distribution system still rewards that behavior.

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The behavior that we are addressing is one that should drive players back to groups, potentially raids, potentially slavering monstrosities of maximum point value seeking players. Considering that I am trying to push PvMP beyond the crossroads where it sits back into an active experience. I am hoping that taking what is effectively an exploitative behavior out of the game is better for longevity.

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Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers

All the buffs to creep skill? nice! but all those debuffs are cureable, and freep cures are so strong that with a certain group comp, everything gets insta-cured by AOE curative skills that are on extremely low cooldowns... or like champion, are just flat out immune.

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The upcoming changes I outlined here are not direct buffs, they're alterations meant to increase early experience survivability. If I got them right, then monsters stand a little better chance.[/quote]

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Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers

Making all the creep classes free? good idea! but hold on... multiboxing is still allowed according to the rules... so its going to be boxer city out there (it was already, but now its gonna be big).

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Not sure that this will come to pass. Seems like it might be something of a fringe case. One, that should it arise, we can look into.

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Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers

Keep changes? good! but freeps can still w-key through them all with their insane cooldowns and healing.

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These are longer term changes that are sneaking in and you will need to see the changes before you can make that assessment. If this is the experience - let us know once you get in them.

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Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers

Creep cure! finally! but its on defiler, the most disgustingly overplay overstacked class in the moors next to blackarrow, while warleader changes are not enough to break it out of its c-tier category.

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Again, this is a future update, not one that will be available immediately.

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Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers

Let me be clear... as someone who historically has been very critical of a lot of SSG decisions regarding PVMP.... all of your changes are good changes.... just not hitting any real problem areas... nothing will fundamentally change, and those people who do log in to check it out will be disappointed to see things playing out identical to how they were before.

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It's a process. The end goal of the changes will not be achieved in one release. I have to make incremental changes and stabilize what is here as best I can and power the Ettenmoors through the crossroads to really drive more meaningful and impactful change. I'm just hoping this starts it across the path and it doesn't stall it out.

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Originally Posted by SingularityNow

How many commedations does it take for each rank of audacity and have you changed or supplemented the way comms are generated? I play on Ark, the idea that I would have a chance to quest for audacity without getting constantly camped by freeps is very unlikely and there are hardly any creep leaders anymore that will group people up except if you are at least r5, some not till r7. Where are the changes to Keeps, the DOF, or the other stuff you mentioned in your thread? All its seems you've done is make the rich richer, those that can generate comms, and the poor poorer, newbs and casual soloists who already struggle with the 6k per rank of audacity to cap. And now you've added 11 more in the hopes we spend mithril on temporary boosts? I don't understand, maybe I'm not seeing everything. Aren't all creep skills already available by r5? It barely matters because the comm grind is so brutal, you can't get the skills.

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I will actually be out of the officce later today, but I will give you a preview of the cost breakdowns for 1-25 if I get a chance tomorrow evening.

Keep changes, DoF, and other pieces needed to get pushed. The changes to early ranks, as stated, have a goal of moving quickly. The 11 additional ranks are certainly more costly. So too for the players.

Not just mithril, commendations can be used and I will break down the cost, when I am back in the office.

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Originally Posted by Intolerance

Are the changes you mentioned for OC/EC, Delving, OPs, & Keeps still happening?

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They are still on my list, but not in this first round.

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Originally Posted by kiwi88

Going free to play is great!

Could we get carry-alls for moors items? They take up a LOT of bag space which makes it harder to switch back and forth between PVE and PVP.

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Nifty question. I'll take a loot, no guarantees.

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Originally Posted by Ameranth

This is probably a rhetorical question, but I have to ask it. Will there be any compensation for comms already spent?

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The short answer, no.

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Originally Posted by Ameranth

It took 85,000 commendations to get 25 audacity on a single creep, multiply that by 6 creeps and it's 510,000 per player. That's a huge amount of grind.
Now we're being told that up to 24 is basically free,

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I think you're reading a little too far into what I stated. Certainly not free. Attainable more quickly.

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Originally Posted by Ameranth

and we have to spend hundreds of thousands more which we no longer have just to get back to where we were.

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Your current ranks will not change. No having to fight back to that level.

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Originally Posted by Ameranth

If it's the same 6000/7500 per rank as before, that's approximately another 400,000 to 500,000 per player!

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The total cost for max audacity is not that high. I will break it down in the next week, so that this clearer, bear in mind that we need some testing to validate our changes.

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Originally Posted by Ameranth

Since those comms have already been spent it would be great if existing audacity ranks were scaled up to the new ones. Currently 1-13 are almost free and 14+ is very expensive, so any creep with rank 14+ audacity could just have 11 added to their current value and be back to what they'd originally paid for, with no loss or gain relative to new players.

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If only it were that simple.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

The behavior that we are addressing is one that should drive players back to groups, potentially raids, potentially slavering monstrosities of maximum point value seeking players. Considering that I am trying to push PvMP beyond the crossroads where it sits back into an active experience. I am hoping that taking what is effectively an exploitative behavior out of the game is better for longevity.

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People don't need to be pushed into grouping, in a way they're already doing it too much. That is the exact problem. Big mega raids that suck up every single player in the whole map and squat on a shuffle location with 5 second server lag because everyone is mashing as many AOE buttons as possible, causing huge network traffic on the server end. No one particularly enjoys this experience, nor do they enjoy the vast emptiness that is the rest of the map, devoid of players because everyone is shuffling in the big zerg to soak up all those points by pressing whatever ranged damage button happens to fall under their fingers... and if there's action somewhere else, the zerg will come and roll that for points too. There's no disincentive to have 80 players lagging each other out, nor any way to really avoid it.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

The upcoming changes I outlined here are not direct buffs, they're alterations meant to increase early experience survivability. If I got them right, then monsters stand a little better chance.

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https://media2.giphy.com/media/2t9mb...mHj8AZ/200.gif


I understand that by logging into some random server and looking at a shuffle, you might think that the sides are roughly evenly matched, but the reality is that whenever a competent group of freeps comes out with decent composition and leadership, the creeps have lacked any tools to be able to fight it beyond getting an absurd number of people (x2), and none of your currently known changes in this beta or future betas addresses this. In the past freeps were supposed to be the stronger of the two sides, but creeps had tools to compete despite being weaker individually, like their ability to rez or tools like blight. Right now they don't have any tools to effectively counter anything that a good freep group can throw at them.

The highest level players on all severs have pondered this and come to the conclusion after many tests and fights that there's basically no counterplay to many of these compositions, so neither side logs on, because its pointless for both parties... they don't want to shuffle, they want to have a good fight where the outcome isn't predetermined. Discussions within the various PVP discords have basically come to the conclusion that its not going to be worth logging in for your changes as they stand now, because the auto-win conditions are still there for freeps.

Creeps don't need buffs, they need tools.... right now they don't have enough.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

It's a process. The end goal of the changes will not be achieved in one release. I have to make incremental changes and stabilize what is here as best I can and power the Ettenmoors through the crossroads to really drive more meaningful and impactful change. I'm just hoping this starts it across the path and it doesn't stall it out.

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I'll give you this: these are the best changes in 8+ years..... but right now a lot of people are responding with a nod and a shrug. "good changes, but nothing has changed".

A lot of that reboot energy got burnt up with the (good but unfinished) Fantus audacity gear update, where many players decided to give PVMP another shot, only to come back and see the same old same old problems, just with less grind. You're really going to have to target the core issues if you want to get the people back.

Can you fix scytode brood "Contact Poison" tooltip still saying 102-132 damage? I've already made a bug report about this and I'm pretty sure a GM just replied that it's intended...

Are there still any benefits of being a VIP in the Etten or not?

the lag is gonna be glorious

It's looking good so far, thank you.

I'd like to add to some of the concerns about multiboxing from a bit above. Lowering the barrier of entry to creepside seems unnecessary, any new players who want to try out PvMP likely have a level 10 character anyway, or can easily obtain one in less than one hour of gameplay. Creep accessibility never was a problem. If anything, whenever the balance is close or slightly in creeps' favour, creeps tend to have significantly higher numbers out than freeps. This change:

• slightly encourages multiboxing
• makes DIY rank farming even easier than it was before; the level 10 requirement didn't stop the 'commercial' and bigger rank farmers but it was too much effort for 'independent' ones - now anyone will be able to roll 10 warleaders any time free of charge
• encourages freeps to make disposable creep alts for OOC trashtalking, spying (even as it was now creep raids often had to map away because there were rank 0 reavers following them to know their location) and rigging the "outnumbered buff".

Speaking of the outnumbered buff (Lainedhel's call to arms/Akulhun's something) - any chance that it could get removed or changed into something that doesn't buff combat stats? On bigger servers freeps tend to have it even at times when the numbers are equal.

I would not like to strongly criticize a person who may be really trying to fix a broken pvp, in any case, I want to at least hope that real work is being done, so I will be as correct as possible.

Dear Orion, your changes regarding the fame received for heal are, of course, not bad, but this is not the problem that really bothers the players, it did not require an urgent solution.
We are worried and forced to leave the project by an absolute imbalance, because creep is helpless against the background of freep with a good gear and brains.
The PvMP community does not require global changes from you at the moment, we ask you to make a patch, balance the creeps stats so that their dps can compete with the current selfheal freeps.
More specifically, you have made gear for freeps, and this is a good start, now ban the use of LI on Moors, make a separate standard mandatory weapon for freeps. If you want, let it work like LI, but adjust its parameters to the realities of pvp, but it's better to let it be a regular weapon without legacies. I am not a developer, but this is not a very large amount of work, if you need help testing the resulting balance, then you can attract players, there are enough people who will help you successfully implement it.
By the way, if you ban LI, it will also partially solve the problem with selfheal fraps, because many classes of cd heal skills are tied to legacies, and because of their lack of cds will increase, and freeps will cease to be so immortal.

P.S. a global problem requiring urgent solution - impossible server freezes. I haven't logged into the game since October last year, then everything was bad, but now it's even worse.
It seemed that we had found the bottom, but suddenly there was a knock on the other side...

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Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers

People don't need to be pushed into grouping, in a way they're already doing it too much. That is the exact problem. Big mega raids that suck up every single player in the whole map and squat on a shuffle location with 5 second server lag because everyone is mashing as many AOE buttons as possible, causing huge network traffic on the server end. No one particularly enjoys this experience, nor do they enjoy the vast emptiness that is the rest of the map, devoid of players because everyone is shuffling in the big zerg to soak up all those points by pressing whatever ranged damage button happens to fall under their fingers... and if there's action somewhere else, the zerg will come and roll that for points too. There's no disincentive to have 80 players lagging each other out, nor any way to really avoid it.

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If Orion reads this. Meta play will unfortunately always win over fun, hence it is up to the developers to make Meta fun.

It is probably unwise to touch upon the fact whether 24man raids are fun to be in, because it is subjective. However, we can all agree that being frozen in the same spot every 5 seconds, due the old LoTRO engine certainly places a demper on raids in general. And the effect a raid has on the rest of the moors, (making it feel empty because every player rushes to one location), is objectively not fun.

I am by no means an expert but could it be as simple to boost the renown/infamy game for solo/duo/fellowship play to such a degree Meta will shift.
By doing so the lag should subside and the moors will feel more active with wargs and burglars lurking in every corner.
To make things even more interesting boost commendations and renown/infamy for quests by a thousand? I can guarantee the world will feel active.

To reiterate, rank 15 or obtain gear is the goal, not to have fun, in pvp for the majority of players. (they will never admit it). Therefore tune the moors and LoTRO engine limits to this, which will provide the illusion of fun by doing a grind.
(small disclaimer for anyone that cares enough to tell that their goal is to have fun in pvp and not gain rank 15 or get gear. Great good on you.)

Let's goooooo!
Well looking forward to trying this out!

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Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers

I understand that by logging into some random server and looking at a shuffle, you might think that the sides are roughly evenly matched, but the reality is that whenever a competent group of freeps comes out with decent composition and leadership, the creeps have lacked any tools to be able to fight it beyond getting an absurd number of people (x2), and none of your currently known changes in this beta or future betas addresses this. In the past freeps were supposed to be the stronger of the two sides, but creeps had tools to compete despite being weaker individually, like their ability to rez or tools like blight. Right now they don't have any tools to effectively counter anything that a good freep group can throw at them.

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I agree. The creeps have always lacked the tools to deal with the power of the freeps. This is an iterative process and I cannot do everyting all at once. If I don't make a stab at getting something together here then the we're on an exit ramp from monster town. I'd rather that not happen.

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Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers

The highest level players on all severs have pondered this and come to the conclusion after many tests and fights that there's basically no counterplay to many of these compositions, so neither side logs on, because its pointless for both parties... they don't want to shuffle, they want to have a good fight where the outcome isn't predetermined. Discussions within the various PVP discords have basically come to the conclusion that its not going to be worth logging in for your changes as they stand now, because the auto-win conditions are still there for freeps.

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Like I said, incremental change.

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Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers

Creeps don't need buffs, they need tools.... right now they don't have enough.

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True.

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Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers

I'll give you this: these are the best changes in 8+ years..... but right now a lot of people are responding with a nod and a shrug. "good changes, but nothing has changed".

A lot of that reboot energy got burnt up with the (good but unfinished) Fantus audacity gear update, where many players decided to give PVMP another shot, only to come back and see the same old same old problems, just with less grind. You're really going to have to target the core issues if you want to get the people back.

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You can only verify that these assumptions are correct by testing and providing feedback. Hopefully by my interactions you can see that I am willing to listen.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

The behavior that we are addressing is one that should drive players back to groups, potentially raids, potentially slavering monstrosities of maximum point value seeking players. Considering that I am trying to push PvMP beyond the crossroads where it sits back into an active experience. I am hoping that taking what is effectively an exploitative behavior out of the game is better for longevity.

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I'm reserving my final opinion when I see the costs changes to Audacity and how that last 11 ranks affect gameplay. However, I currently don't see how this is accomplishing your goal. What you don't seem to understand is, at least on Ark - and there are only TWO servers that offer pvp populations, and I don't see anything here designed to entice players on other servers to pvp - there are currently a grand total of TWO common creep leaders that are active. One during the day, one in the evening. There are a few others on at random times, but for raids to form it's primarily these two. Now, of these two; one only will take R5+ and the other will tank only R7+ into their raids. How are you proposing this horde of R0's you're hoping to create get kills to get comms get skills and audacity?

It seems like, and again I'm trying to reserve final judgement, that you are about to create the biggest grams camp of all time as all these new R0's will have no where to go, and the freeps will flock to the easy points - for about 2 weeks before everyone feels it's hopeless and quits.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Moving forward, you will need Audacity to survive in the Ettenmoors, and to augment that need we have added new tinctures that increase Audacity by 5 Ranks for 60 minutes of real-time. Tinctures be acquired for either ‘Commendations’ or Mithril Coins at barter NPCs found at the respective main bases. These tinctures stack to ten and have a cooldown of 60 minutes to match their duration. The tinctures are not bound by your Rank in PvMP.

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I won't shoot the messenger, as I assume this monetization is the only reason SSG let you off your leash to work with PvP, so we'll take what we can get.

However, I hope that you'll keep in mind how expensive buffs are for creeps, especially creeps who do not participate in mass RvR, as it is. Right now solo/small groupers have immense struggles just breaking even on fury pots/delving buffs/morale pots, much less new buffs. I honestly think the best course would be to completely remove delving pots and internally add the stats they provide to all Creeps (it's actually one of the big reasons why low rank creeps are so garbage- they aren't high enough rank to buy them and even if they could, can't afford them). It would show a continuation of your wise line of reasoning that there should NOT be a massive gap between lower rank and higher rank Creeps in terms of stats- that only discourages new and inexperienced players. If you can't remove the pots/add the stats, then cutting down the cost would be great, so Creeps can spend comms on Tinctures, Morale/Fury/Stun pots, and foods.


I'll echo what Saruman of Numbers says- good changes, will remain skeptical until we see more big picture changes to discourage shuffling, improved macro play (objective adjustments, discouragement of zerging, a look at Map/Mount use), and some individual class balance stuff would be cool (Defilers are obnoxious, BAs are easy, Wargs too basic, Reavers stink, WLs are weak, and creeps have terrible utility/tools).

Cheers!

Im here for its revitalization :)

Best of luck Orion!

The CC reduction is horrible, it decreases all CC except for daze grace durations by 3/4 from what they currently are on live. Please reconsider it.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...94/unknown.png


Also full support for what Spilo is saying below. Basically the whole audacity curve is insane.

https://i.postimg.cc/x1j4wrh4/444.png

0 audacity creep


https://i.postimg.cc/h45WbtYt/222.png

Max audacity with 36

https://i.postimg.cc/YqLcXwcf/3333.png

With the tincture.

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1. I'm really concerned about messing with incoming damage without doing a global adjustment do damage numbers across the board. Don't get me wrong- incoming damage has been a bloated and ugly bandaid for ages, that made Creeps extremely vulnerable to inc damage debuffs from Freeps (the higher the -inc damage defensive modifier is, the more it hurts multiplicatively when you're hit by an inc damage debuff). However, inc damage needs to be significantly reduced when you also globally reduce the amount of damage Freeps or significantly increase health/healing capabilities. In plain terms, max audacity Creep now is less vulnerable to inc damage debuffs because overall inc damage has been reduced, HOWEVER, this has not been compensated by bigger morale pools/nerfing Freep damage. This is going to be an absolute 1-shot disaster.


2. The commendation cost is... not at all reasonable. One of the main selling points (we were told) is that it's going to be easier to max out audacity, but right now I'm hearing it costs over 115k commendations to hit 36 audacity- in what world is this a significant improvement? If Creepside is going F2P, and you want to monetize tinctures, one quick way to kill it is to make the "gearing" experience this miserable (in addition with an additional mandatory comm buff in the tinctures, combined with delving pots, morale pots, fury pots, food, etc.), which leads me to my next point.

3. The punishment for not having maxed Audacity is unreasonable. It was bad on live, I'm pretty sure it's worse on Beta, which directly opposes the spirit of making it more accessible for lowbies. Right now, if my ballpark estimate math is right, a 0 rank audacity creep takes around almost double damage and dishes out 50% less damage than their 41 audacity counterparts from Audacity buffs alone. Not only did Creeps lose inc damage without proper adjustments, you're now increasing damage inc if you're not capped!

4. The CC reduction is way too high. I get it, CC isn't always fun, but to go from, what, 60% reduction on live to 92% with 41 audacity seems crazy. That's an 80% nerf to CC duration, meaning a 4 second stun on live will last less than 1 second on beta. I really am not even sure CC itself needed a nerf on live- chain CC perhaps, but this is beyond a nerf. This is legitimately making CC completely and utterly worthless.


Overall I'm not at all pleased with the changes- the impression of the "spirit" of the changes seems to have completely missed the mark.

Thank you Orion for listening to and talking with the player base. You may not get 100 percent agreement (not possible) but you are willing to interact with the customers and not afraid of feedback. It is much appreciated.

Please do get on Bullroarer and get us detailed feedback based on your experience. I know we've got PvMP players who like to record video as well, get us that too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cordovan

Please do get on Bullroarer and get us detailed feedback based on your experience. I know we've got PvMP players who like to record video as well, get us that too.

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Any hints on how to access the 50+ new monster skins added to the database?

https://i.imgur.com/DCldRBx.png

https://i.imgur.com/8fVEr15.png

My someone has been busy!

While you're reconsidering the cost of playing a creep, I would like you to reconsider the cost of playing a Freep. I already bought all my monster classes. I'd love to be able to buy a one-off per character for my Freep like I could for my creep!

Question: Now that the proposed change out there is to prevent people from being in large raid groups, are you adjusting the Moors changes to be more small group and solo content? Not sure how the change to landscape groups will affect all of this. It seems to be changes working against each other. On one hand you are trying to bring life back to the Moors and raids again. On the other hand raids will no longer get credit for anything on landscape. Is the Moors landscape? Will raids still be possible in the Moors?

- freeps get T4 equip and no changes to creep damage output... thank god, that the legendary weapons are still at 475
- CC is useless

tested on both sides a half hour

max mitigation phy and tact, 30% crit
with my RK i did 2 defilers, the first battle took a while no crit luck.... but in the end no chance for him
the second battle was over in under 10 seconds, essence of storm with 710k crit and then a static surge with 925k.... both normal crits... R15 fully buffed
against a BA I got a 130k crit vital target hit..... he was able to get me from 1,4 to 1,05m.... R15 fully buffed and full on tact mit... devasting epic con 600k

tested with my BA...
nearly the same damage output as on live... did a devasting hit with 220k on a champ with vital target...
then a warg an I tried a hunter.... he destroyed both of us, insane incoming damage and we got him to 200k left


again testing it with a new build

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8v7Fan0HC0

I got cordovan's endorsement... watch at 1.25 speed for maximum rage effect

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

I agree. The creeps have always lacked the tools to deal with the power of the freeps. This is an iterative process and I cannot do everyting all at once. If I don't make a stab at getting something together here then the we're on an exit ramp from monster town. I'd rather that not happen.

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This is pandering in the extreme. I know most of the most committed players to PvMP are creeps and vocal about the perceived imbalances, and to internally justify man-hours on the necessary changes (in both directions) there has to be a return on that investment in terms of player engagement (and possibly in player store sales). BUT I disagree that creeps have 'always' lacked the tools. Over the years it has been a yo-yo based on level cap changes. Creeps are overpowered for a bit, then freeps are over-powered for a bit and the cycle continues. It's generally an upward spiral where first one side then the other screams the louder about thing being 'unfair'.

The audacity choice I would have taken would have been to scrap it rather than double-down on it. The analogy i use is a golf handicap. If you were coming up against a pro golfer, he's starting on say +15 and the amateur new player starts on 0. Audacity says the pro actually starts on -15 and tough on you, new starter!!! Or put another way a chess grandmaster could beat me with two pawns and a bishop, but audacity starts him with 7 queens and 8 rooks. The barrier to entry for a free peoples player with 0 audacity coming across even 2 creeps with 35 audacity (perhaps with an extra +15 from perks) will make PvMP unattractive.

Last comment is to do with the commendations armour currently being barred OUTSIDE of PvMP. This was a balance issue with the release of Gundabad having teal 446 item level gear was more than intended for landscape and a block was swiftly patched in (after we'd spent thousands and thousands of comms) -- and now that the PvE gear from the raid is item level 470+ teals that change should be reverted and we should be able to use PvMP gear anywhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frappy

This is pandering in the extreme. I know most of the most committed players to PvMP are creeps and vocal about the perceived imbalances, and to internally justify man-hours on the necessary changes (in both directions) there has to be a return on that investment in terms of player engagement (and possibly in player store sales). BUT I disagree that creeps have 'always' lacked the tools. Over the years it has been a yo-yo based on level cap changes. Creeps are overpowered for a bit, then freeps are over-powered for a bit and the cycle continues. It's generally an upward spiral where first one side then the other screams the louder about thing being 'unfair'.

---

The tools are references to utility- debuffs, buffs, cleanses, defensive cds, etc. that Creeps have always lacked. Whenever Creeps were stronger, it was because of raw damage or heals (snares, bestial claws, VT, defiler HoTs), which is why well coordinated freep groups have almost always dumpstered Creeps, even when Creeps had slight edge with damage/healing because they used utility that Creepside has never had. This also has historically encouraged heavy FOTM/zerg mentality on Creeps who can just roll a BA/Filer and mash some buttons to do good work- it's not good for either side.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion;8145789

[COLOR="#00FF00"

Audacity Changes[/COLOR]

Audacity has been reimagined and made more important than ever! Each side in the Ettenmoors now has 36 Ranks of Audacity. Free Players get Audacity through the acquisition of gear, including a new set of armour and jewellery available for ‘Commendations’ at Glân Vraig. Monster Players earn Ranks of Audacity by spending ‘Commendations’ at their Corruptors within Gramsfoot.

Because of the reliance and necessity of Audacity, we have reduced the cost to train Audacity from Ranks 1-24. The reduction reflects the need to move to Rank 25 quickly, overcoming the negative impact to outgoing damage and increased incoming damage. At Rank 25 Audacity, all players reach parity and break even with neither bonus nor negative impact. From 26 to 36, there are incremental gains improving the outgoing damage and reducing incoming damage.

Moving forward, you will need Audacity to survive in the Ettenmoors, and to augment that need we have added new tinctures that increase Audacity by 5 Ranks for 60 minutes of real-time. Tinctures be acquired for either ‘Commendations’ or Mithril Coins at barter NPCs found at the respective main bases. These tinctures stack to ten and have a cooldown of 60 minutes to match their duration. The tinctures are not bound by your Rank in PvMP.


Heal Tagging is Removed

Lastly, the practice known as “heal tagging” is gone. Players outside of fellowship or raids no longer earn infamy/renown or ‘Commendations’ when healing a player who defeated an opponent in the Ettenmoors. To get recognition for the defeat, a player must deal at least 2% of the damage to the target or be part of the fellowship or raid that defeats the target.

There is a known issue with the heal tagging fix right now that we are working and it may not be present in the BUllroarer preview uploaded in the next day or so. We are working to ensure that it is fixed for the next iteration of Bullroarer and certainly for the release of the next live update.
!

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I havent got the time to try Bullroarer yet but I have 2 concerns so far:
1. Purchase audacity tinctures with Mithril sounds like p2w. Making PVMP free for all but adding a purchasable buff with real money - me no like. Honestly I am not a fan of the tinctures. Will the cost be too high or too low? As if it stacks to 10 the total audacity will be 35, so why bother purchase audacity ranks when you can purchase tincures with comms/MC./
2. Removing inf/renown gain from healing outside of fellow is good, but this might encourage large groups/raids running around rather than more solo/small group roaming.

I will provide more feedback once I am able to test.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XPICTO

2. Removing inf/renown gain from healing outside of fellow is good, but this might encourage large groups/raids running around rather than more solo/small group roaming.

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Orion seems to strategically be dancing around this when someone brings it up, not realizing that people just hate those lagout buttonmash fights.


This isn't Shadows of Angmar anymore..... the game just can't handle more than a 12v12.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers

Orion seems to strategically be dancing around this when someone brings it up, not realizing that people just hate those lagout buttonmash fights.


This isn't Shadows of Angmar anymore..... the game just can't handle more than a 12v12.

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1v1*

Mulatic
R14 Reaver
Arkenstone

Bullroarer U33.1 Preview #1; My suggestion and Thoughts

Freep-Side:

* Freep's Armor will get put into Inventory, after Game Crash and log out / back in to the Moor's. (without leaving the Ettenmoors).

* Ettenmoors aren't Free2Play for the Free People.

* Brawler: Rank-Buff isn't working for them.

* Hunter: Needs a Upgrade like Warleader Mobilise Skill 55% Run-Speed.

* Remove or reduce the log out lock from Freep to Creep side. (There's no reason anymore for it, because many of the players have like 5+ accounts to spy).

* Ettenmoors access only with level 135 or 140. (What need lvl 20s to do in the Moor's?; Nothing -> Training-Dummies are all over Middle-Earth).

* Armour/Jewellery Uprgrade prices. (Is there a price decrease possible? 115'000 Commendations only T4 without Upgrade is way to much; Upgrade from T3 -> T4 costs also 46'000 Commendations).

Monster-Side:

* [Tincture of the Sauron's Will] let the player use it with Audacity Rank 36 + 5 = 41 = More Buff Bonuses. Works on both Sides. (This Item let's player overcap the acutual Audacity Cap of 36).

* The Audacity cost is to high from 1-36 a player needs 115'000 Commendations. (maybe a little lowering this? or let Monster Player start with 24 or 25 Audacity?).

* [4 Awards of Audacity] items only for new Monsters. (All and good, but a little unfair to player's who've done the Intro already, don't you think so? Monster-Player, who've done the Intro should have these Items in Inventory).

@SSG_Orion i've sent you this already with pics on Discord. But Posting it here without Pics in the Forum

Quote:

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Originally Posted by galrodan

1v1*

Mulatic
R14 Reaver
Arkenstone

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yea it's a truly sad situation

New audacity is insanity. CC just doesn't work. This completely destroys some of the classes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frappy

The audacity choice I would have taken would have been to scrap it rather than double-down on it.

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Personally I don't care about freep problems but I don't like this audacity armor because before it, while there were 6, 10, 12 freeps out there that were god mode raider armor, the rest were in garbage and were killable. So you just killed the bads and then overwhelmed the good ones with numbers. After Audacity armor, all the bads because EQUAL to the raider. Instead of a bunch of 2's and a few 10's, we wound up with everyone being 7's. This seems like doubling down on that because with all these greenies running around the freeps are going to generate their comms in LOADS they'll get that full audacity gear way before the creeps will have their audacity ranks and the creeps will never catch up, the population is dwindle before that happens.

I don't care about Spilo's set up fights and his raider buddy killing him in duels. Those guys play for a week and then spend the next 11 months in another game. This game needs to be balanced around open world raid vs raid fighting and I dont see how making creeps grind comms to be effective when they're already underpowered is going to help anything. As a creep still questing for maps, I don't think maybe Orion appreciates the impossibility of questing as a lowbie on an OVERPOPULATED server. It's not's not realistic at all. We'll never generate the comms to be effective. If you think we will, you're not playing the game we are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FM6rLhP4K8


so sad... did not even used my bubble

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SingularityNow

I don't care about Spilo's set up fights and his raider buddy killing him in duels. Those guys play for a week and then spend the next 11 months in another game. This game needs to be balanced around open world raid vs raid fighting and I dont see how making creeps grind comms to be effective when they're already underpowered is going to help anything. As a creep still questing for maps, I don't think maybe Orion appreciates the impossibility of questing as a lowbie on an OVERPOPULATED server. It's not's not realistic at all. We'll never generate the comms to be effective. If you think we will, you're not playing the game we are.

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throws me under the bus then agrees with me in the same breath- nice!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spilo

throws me under the bus then agrees with me in the same breath- nice!

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I still remember you and Adapting and others advocating what we have right now. And I never see you playing. It's not shade, it's just reality.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SingularityNow

I still remember you and Adapting and others advocating what we have right now. And I never see you playing. It's not shade, it's just reality.

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What did I advocate that's the current state of balance? Creep brands? PvP gear? Good luck with the rest of anything else- typical scapegoat fantasy. Of course I don't play now, do you think what we have now is fun and good?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spilo

What did I advocate that's the current state of balance? Creep brands? PvP gear? Good luck with the rest of anything else- typical scapegoat fantasy. Of course I don't play now, do you think what we have now is fun and good?

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Are you saying you didn't want pvp gear? I thought you did. My bad if so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SingularityNow

Are you saying you didn't want pvp gear? I thought you did. My bad if so.

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I did for greater accessibility and less imbalance with PvE gear, but PvP gear isn't to blame for waht we have now- lack of creep utility, ineffective defense against inc damage buffs, and champions are why we have what we have now. ALL of which I advocated heavily for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spilo

I did for greater accessibility and less imbalance with PvE gear, but PvP gear isn't to blame for waht we have now-

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I think it is:

Quote:

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Personally I don't care about freep problems but I don't like this audacity armor because before it, while there were 6, 10, 12 freeps out there that were god mode raider armor, the rest were in garbage and were killable. So you just killed the bads and then overwhelmed the good ones with numbers. After Audacity armor, all the bads became EQUAL to the raider. Instead of a bunch of 2's and a few 10's, we wound up with everyone being 7's.

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That's why. It may be fine for your set up fights and duels. But you guys don't do things anyway. The rest of us are left with what you guys think is a good idea while you're off playing another game.

Don't build the moors around 1v1ers or the preset 6v6ers. It's not a good business model. I've played solo or small group in almost every mmo that I've done pvp in. But the game shouldn't be built around that. For PvP like the ettenmoors to be successful it needs to be fun for the average casual to hop in and join a raid or roam the map and have fun for a few hours then log off. People like dread and spilo will always advocate for the game THEY think would have the most fun in.
Unfortunately, more often than not, their viewpoints simply don't reflect what the larger population might enjoy. Which is expected. They enjoy specific forms of pvp which to be honest I prefer as well, I'm just aware that a casual (which is the demographic that makes a game mode sustainable) doesn't enjoy the same things.
I won't comment on the apparent imbalance on bullroarer because I'd imagine we're quite far from a release candidate and we'll get rounds of balancing soon enough. The class changes looked very good. Excited for flayer to be maybe viable again.
I'm disappointed with the 92% CC reduction as I personally believe this reduces the skill cap and guts some classes pretty badly. But I understand why it was implemented and I have a feeling it's not going anywhere. Maybe I'm just too conditioned to sitting in 30s CC chains in WoW arenas lmao.
Overall promising changes, lots of work still to be done. It's good to interact and engage with the community. Just understand that some are very vocal but don't necessarily have their finger on the pulse of what would be best for the moors.
Finally, if the changes bring about some modicum of balance to the moors and lag can be reduced to at least a manageable (for lotro) state. I think it would be nice to see some increased visibility for the moors. It being F2P doesn't do a lot when a vast majority of LOTRO players are virtually unaware that the game has PvP at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J-Moneyforever

People like dread and spilo will always advocate for the game THEY think would have the most fun in.
Just understand that some are very vocal but don't necessarily have their finger on the pulse of what would be best for the moors.

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Disappointed to see this coming from you when the vast majority of my feedback during Fantus's Discord and all of my feedback for this round of beta has been aimed for GvG and RvR. Newbie accessibility, incoming damage, CC changes, commendation cost- what exactly here isn't "what would be best for the moors?" C'mon man!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J-Moneyforever

Don't build the moors around 1v1ers or the preset 6v6ers. It's not a good business model. I've played solo or small group in almost every mmo that I've done pvp in. But the game shouldn't be built around that. For PvP like the ettenmoors to be successful it needs to be fun for the average casual to hop in and join a raid or roam the map and have fun for a few hours then log off. People like dread and spilo will always advocate for the game THEY think would have the most fun in.
Unfortunately, more often than not, their viewpoints simply don't reflect what the larger population might enjoy. Which is expected. They enjoy specific forms of pvp which to be honest I prefer as well, I'm just aware that a casual (which is the demographic that makes a game mode sustainable) doesn't enjoy the same things.
I won't comment on the apparent imbalance on bullroarer because I'd imagine we're quite far from a release candidate and we'll get rounds of balancing soon enough. The class changes looked very good. Excited for flayer to be maybe viable again.
I'm disappointed with the 92% CC reduction as I personally believe this reduces the skill cap and guts some classes pretty badly. But I understand why it was implemented and I have a feeling it's not going anywhere. Maybe I'm just too conditioned to sitting in 30s CC chains in WoW arenas lmao.
Overall promising changes, lots of work still to be done. It's good to interact and engage with the community. Just understand that some are very vocal but don't necessarily have their finger on the pulse of what would be best for the moors.
Finally, if the changes bring about some modicum of balance to the moors and lag can be reduced to at least a manageable (for lotro) state. I think it would be nice to see some increased visibility for the moors. It being F2P doesn't do a lot when a vast majority of LOTRO players are virtually unaware that the game has PvP at all.

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I want to point out there's a difference between "hop in join a raid and roam the map" and what we have now (and what will be encouraged going forward) which is one gigantic mega ball lagging out the whole server for everyone wherever it goes.

I think everyone, including the "specialty action" people you are referring to, would LOVE that the moors be in a state where there's random 6, 12, or 24 man groups casually roaming around different parts of the map... but that is not what is happening.


What is happening is everyone coagulates into a single point and mashes buttons to get free points, while experiencing unplayable server lag.... and I don't think they are ever going to fix the lag for those situations, seeing as they have supposedly been trying for half a decade now. You will never get good lag-free fights when there's 100 people in the same spot using 10 target AOE skills on each other with 7 rows of effects per person.

So I did some testing on my Brawler against a couple of match ups (BA,Warg,Reaver,Defiler) And the amount of damage i was doing is obscene.

Solutions:
1.Do not release tier 4 gear, because it is just an increased stat bloat that is not necessary.
2. Increase creep base stats by a large number : Mastery is at 0 on a blackarrow with zero corruptions slotted, and this is really quite unfair. If keeping tier 4 gear is necessary, then please do increase stats or when this goes live IT WILL BE UNPLAYABLE.
3. Increase Monster player morale by atleast 15% - on my Brawler with no rank buff i have 1.7million, which is more than most creeps have with a high rank bonus.


The CC reduction is abit too strong on Bullroarer, The Idea is good but the execution is abit too potent. Stuns after once have no duration, and some effects do not even immobilize you. Perhaps lowering this to 55% or 60% would be far more playable, than the current 90%.


other observations aside from the obvious :
1.Brawler rank buff does not work (no rank bonus at all)
2. Creepside has some sort of weekly quests available, which are not available on freepside
3. Freep cloak has no audacity (making it negligible to wear the rank one = wearing trigger essences in ettenmoors, further freep dps snowballing)
4. Class Items should be added (With audacity or some reason to take them > champion can use the bow from Throne and retain the fight on essence)
5. I dont know if this is planned but Dar gazag defenders are not scaled, around 20 pulled and took over a minute to kill one player,same as outposts. I assume keeps are the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers

I want to point out there's a difference between "hop in join a raid and roam the map" and what we have now (and what will be encouraged going forward) which is one gigantic mega ball lagging out the whole server for everyone wherever it goes.

I think everyone, including the "specialty action" people you are referring to, would LOVE that the moors be in a state where there's random 6, 12, or 24 man groups casually roaming around different parts of the map... but that is not what is happening.


What is happening is everyone coagulates into a single point and mashes buttons to get free points, while experiencing unplayable server lag.... and I don't think they are ever going to fix the lag for those situations, seeing as they have supposedly been trying for half a decade now. You will never get good lag-free fights when there's 100 people in the same spot using 10 target AOE skills on each other with 7 rows of effects per person.

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I see what you're saying but I'm saying there's a difference between people saying they'd "want" those things, and accepting a development philosophy that would potentially bring those things to pass. I'm not a dev so I won't speak to the best way to make those things happen.
And yeah I think lag is the massive elephant in the room with any kind of improvement to the moors. In terms of everyone on the map clogging up one space I think there's a multitude of factors that led to it but my personal opinion, unsupported by data, is that backdoors/autoflips combined with a lower quality of community is why we have all action concentrated to one spot.
The incentive structures of the moors have always been pretty loose. But during level 85 cap in my experience you would find a wide diversity of fights all across the map. A big part of that was a larger population allowed smaller groups and soloers to roam the map because they could reliably find fights rather than searching for 10 minutes to find one greenie (current state). But backdoors led to a concentration of players unlike anything we'd seen before because BOTH sides had a safe haven to retreat to which appealed to people. Also autoflips made any kind of effort to flip keeps feel pointless. There was never much incentive to take keeps but autoflips lowered the incentive even more. Around that time population in general decreased so people migrated to the one spot that you could be guaranteed a "fight." Backdoor shuffles. That cascaded as better players had no interest in that content so there were even fewer roamers. Lag got worse in the general game but also now all the action was concentrated in one spot. Soon all that was left was shufflers. Even with backdoors gone the mentality of the players was so damaged that they still all seek the one spot that they can migrate to and fight.
I say all this because I think the community mentality is too damaged to just expect them to go back to roaming around the map and fighting in different spots without REAL incentives encouraging them to do so. I'm not helpful in this because I can't confidently say what those incentives should be. Some games have hot spots where you gain additional loot or points. Others reduce point gains if one side drastically outnumbers another in a specific area. But I think without an incentive system designed to spread raids out through the moors the backdoor syndrome will remain.
And everything we say is completely moot if lag isn't significantly improved. I'd be thrilled if you could have a 24v24 in TA and a 12v8 in LC and a 16v18 at TRHS. But the reality is that even the 12v8 can reduce the game to an unplayable mess right now. And that would ruin any chance of revival in population from new players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J-Moneyforever

There was never much incentive to take keeps but autoflips lowered the incentive even more. Around that time population in general decreased so people migrated to the one spot that you could be guaranteed a "fight." Backdoor shuffles. That cascaded as better players had no interest in that content so there were even fewer roamers. Lag got worse in the general game but also now all the action was concentrated in one spot. Soon all that was left was shufflers. Even with backdoors gone the mentality of the players was so damaged that they still all seek the one spot that they can migrate to and fight.

I say all this because I think the community mentality is too damaged to just expect them to go back to roaming around the map and fighting in different spots without REAL incentives encouraging them to do so.

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THIS^

This is why I wanted to see what the new EC and OC spots would do. If they worked like I've heard they worked then it would give those guys that leaned toward back door shuffles a place to fight but because there's not guaranteed safety at these spots, you could eventually wipe them out, or force them to flee or whatever.

That's why I'm so hesitant with this proposal. This doesn't address THAT ^^^ and that is our biggest problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J-Moneyforever

I say all this because I think the community mentality is too damaged to just expect them to go back to roaming around the map and fighting in different spots without REAL incentives encouraging them to do so.

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Then we are on the same page... and this is one of the core issues I mentioned earlier that remains unaddressed, along with a whole litany of others.

looking at these changes i may as well delete my creeps lol hunters on live can pretty much 2 -3 shot most creeps these changes properly mean 1shot is possible ( camo burn hot etc and hs) what was really needed was a buff to creeps damage output to match what freeps are capable of out there.....changes was needed for the moors to make it more balanced but this just seams to make it even worce than what we already had ( didnt think that was possible)

First let me say Thank you Orion for this welcome breath of fresh air. Yes i understand its hopefully a good start. As a player who has PvMP since Beta I welcome any changes. As someone who has spent 25+ years in Softwae\re Development and specializing in release management i know your pain. Iknow you can't please everyone and the common theme in this thread is but what about my favourite play style what are you doing to improve that!. I like Raid vs Raid Action, i like group action , but experience has shown roaming the map solo means your zerg bait (unless stealthed on a warg). I luv warg packs too just say'in but they need luv too.
Of course i'd luv you to add more creep classes to fill that "Skill" imbalance. My vote would be for a "Goblin Class" (Finally) that would be something of a cross between a warden and/or burg to give the creeps some more CC and limited stealth skills. I know your plate is already over flowing but hopefully you can squeeze this into a future "Change" patch.

Keep up the great work and we hope to see things gradually improve across the moors.


:cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J-Moneyforever

Don't build the moors around 1v1ers or the preset 6v6ers. It's not a good business model. I've played solo or small group in almost every mmo that I've done pvp in. But the game shouldn't be built around that. For PvP like the ettenmoors to be successful it needs to be fun for the average casual to hop in and join a raid or roam the map and have fun for a few hours then log off. People like dread and spilo will always advocate for the game THEY think would have the most fun in.
Unfortunately, more often than not, their viewpoints simply don't reflect what the larger population might enjoy. Which is expected. They enjoy specific forms of pvp which to be honest I prefer as well, I'm just aware that a casual (which is the demographic that makes a game mode sustainable) doesn't enjoy the same things.

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Based and true

Catering to 1v1 and 6v6 culture is a huge mistake, that type of pvp ends up being super exclusive and the average player does not belong in that type of environment. I'd say about half of 1v1/6v6 pvp culture revolves around calling the average player bad/incompetent/useless so those people are excluded from activities. But if you want moors action to be sustainable, you need more of the average player running around to keep it alive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spilo

1. I'm really concerned about messing with incoming damage without doing a global adjustment do damage numbers across the board. Don't get me wrong- incoming damage has been a bloated and ugly bandaid for ages, that made Creeps extremely vulnerable to inc damage debuffs from Freeps (the higher the -inc damage defensive modifier is, the more it hurts multiplicatively when you're hit by an inc damage debuff). However, inc damage needs to be significantly reduced when you also globally reduce the amount of damage Freeps or significantly increase health/healing capabilities. In plain terms, max audacity Creep now is less vulnerable to inc damage debuffs because overall inc damage has been reduced, HOWEVER, this has not been compensated by bigger morale pools/nerfing Freep damage. This is going to be an absolute 1-shot disaster.

2. The commendation cost is... not at all reasonable. One of the main selling points (we were told) is that it's going to be easier to max out audacity, but right now I'm hearing it costs over 115k commendations to hit 36 audacity- in what world is this a significant improvement? If Creepside is going F2P, and you want to monetize tinctures, one quick way to kill it is to make the "gearing" experience this miserable (in addition with an additional mandatory comm buff in the tinctures, combined with delving pots, morale pots, fury pots, food, etc.), which leads me to my next point.

3. The punishment for not having maxed Audacity is unreasonable. It was bad on live, I'm pretty sure it's worse on Beta, which directly opposes the spirit of making it more accessible for lowbies. Right now, if my ballpark estimate math is right, a 0 rank audacity creep takes around almost double damage and dishes out 50% less damage than their 41 audacity counterparts from Audacity buffs alone. Not only did Creeps lose inc damage without proper adjustments, you're now increasing damage inc if you're not capped!

4. The CC reduction is way too high. I get it, CC isn't always fun, but to go from, what, 60% reduction on live to 92% with 41 audacity seems crazy. That's an 80% nerf to CC duration, meaning a 4 second stun on live will last less than 1 second on beta. I really am not even sure CC itself needed a nerf on live- chain CC perhaps, but this is beyond a nerf. This is legitimately making CC completely and utterly worthless.

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^^^ I 100% Agree with all the points above.

I. The audacity changes concerning inc damage, CC and cost are horrible:
- creep incoming DMG reduction buff from audacity has been reduced but freep DMG output has not been nerfed good enough to compensate
- what's the point of the huge difference between a creep with 0 audacity and full audacity? Isn't the point of the update to make it easier for new creeps to play? I get why you need that for freeps (to stop them from using PVE gear), but creeps don't need that
- audacity cost is still ridiculously high



II. Why CC reduction is a really bad change?:
1) It greatly reduces complexity of certain classess without giving any other complex system in return because CC is practically useless now.
Knowing how to use CC correctly is one of the hardest aspects of the game when it comes to Spider/LM/burg (and other classes to a lesser degree). In order to use CC effectively you need to: 1. understand how CC DR works; 2. coordinate CC and dmg aoe skills in a group; 3.know various strategies on how to counter certain mechanics with CC [like CCing for getting distance/induction off; surviving against dmg buffs like Burn Hot and All In, etc.]).
2) It also reduces complexity of group pvp because there is no need for CC coordination.
You don't need to worry about: 1. removing CC with your aoe dmg skills (like removing a daze/roots/fear); 2. triggering CC DR with your aoe CC skills and hence reducing the potential of your overall group CC capacity.
3) creeps are reliant on CC because their most usefull debuffs (75% inc healing debuff from blight and mits debuff from warg puddle) are ground based so you need to stick freep to one spot in order to make these debuffs useful. But without CC it's impossible (flayer warg roots are not gonna work because they are countered by fearing the warg). Also CC is one of the few useful things (in terms of utility) that creeps have now because of extreme cleanse on freepside and lack of usefull buffs/debuffs on creepside. So CC reduction leaves creeps with practically nothing in terms of utility.

Can there be a compromise?
Yes. We can have 92% audacity if we get some other complex system in return. So if that was possible I would support CC reduction.

The CC change should be reverted back. 60% reduction if fine.
CC duration comparison with full audacity and no CC diminishing returns on live and beta:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...0518538/CC.png



III. What should be the focus of the next pvp update:
1) get rid of INC DMG reduction buff from audacity to reduce the potency of:
- freep INC DMG buffs and debuffs;
- 6 hour tome of defence (which is one of the worst things that happed to pvp lately)
- population buff (which should be removed from the game because it gives unnecessary advantage to one side)
and reduce creep and freep outgoing damage so that it doesn't end up in one shot pvp

2) improve creepside utility:
- fix cleanse problem (the fact that most of creep debuffs are easily cleansed because freeps have tons of cleanse skills in group). How can you fix it? My solution is to add tier system to debuffs and bleeds on creepside. In order to remove one debuff you'll have to use 3 cleanses instead of 1 and after 1st cleanse the debuff tiers down (for example: 15% > 10% > 5% > removed). Same thing with bleeds: there could be like 3 or 2 tiers and the bleed just becomes weaker with each cleanse.
- fix incombat rezzes discrepancy. Freeps have a lot more incombat rezzes compared to creeps. Defiler needs an incombat rez.
- fix the lack of offensive and defensive buffs/debuffs on creepside
- make useless skills/traits useful

3) deal with broken traceries/skills/traits on freepside (48s champ sprint/13s CD on self motivation/18s CD on mini flop, etc.)

4) spread fights around the Moors by reworking maps/mounts and adding some goals for people to travel across the map



----------------------
Also armour pot was stealth nerfed (accidentally, I assume). 223k on live vs 138k on beta.

The audacity changes will be yet another huge grind of comms just to cap audacity which I think is going to cause issues with balance that are worst than we have now on live. With the lag issues this game has had for years that have only gotten worst and the balance issues we have now on live that will probably not improve at all with this update, I can see no reason to keep an active sub here or even log on creeps to pvp and waste any more time with this game. Thanks for trying but unless some major changes are made to things, primarily the audacity costs I cant see myself doing this anymore.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

The behavior that we are addressing is one that should drive players back to groups, potentially raids, potentially slavering monstrosities of maximum point value seeking players.

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First off, thank you for working on the Moors. It's the only game-mode that's kept me playing LotRO for 15 years and I'm so happy to finally see it getting some love; if monetisation is what it takes then (within reason) by all means, monetise it. Competitive players have deep pockets.

Currently a 24v24 fight is like loading up and office PowerPoint presentation, literal delays of over 5 seconds per skill press, immediate skills straight up don't work. Nobody enjoys this gameplay but when you're committed to a raid and the only way to fight the enemy (also in a raid) is to raid.... I mean, you see where this is going. I think the game is in a place now where healtagging needs to stay, or these 24v24 fights will simply become 35+ v 35+ and as we've seen before, the lag tremors will begin to heavily affect players not even in the Ettenmoors but in other places in the world on the same server. I don't envisage this encouraging any but the current hardcore PvMP player base continuing to play.

Has thought been put into how to overcome this issue? I think it's the single biggest problem with the Moors...

The only things I can think of from LIVE that I'd like to see changed are:

- Freep Audacity is currently: Get annihilated by endless CCs and insane taken damage until you get to Audacity levels where it starts to become reasonable. This isn't fun. I took a break from the game for 6 months and came back, I want to PvP but as a soloer it's literally impossible to me to gear my 2-3 played classes in any reasonable time-frame.

- Please just set the Audacity crowd control reduction to just -60%, from 1 Audacity onwards, 60%. This reduction is mandatory for PvMP not to be insufferable, especially as a Freep with how many CCs Creepside has and how long some of them are (WL Shield Bash is a joke at low/no audacity). As mentioned by other posters, it is well worth reviewing perhaps not the duration of the CCs (with -60% from Audacity as a base-line), but the potency of chain CCs, Disarms, Silences etc. a long CC or two that you can work your way out of is ok, 10 in a row sucks and is frustrating to play against.

- Please don't allow the Tinctures to over-cap Audacity, or this just makes a permanent and mandatory store-wh.. buff for some, but not available to all. Current tooltips suggest a further 2% CC and 10% damage reduction, the latter being absolutely huge for a paid for debuff. Not to mention the impact this has on Freepside being able to buy 10 stacks of Tinctures 24/7 and then wear 3-4-6-set bonus gear from the raid, which as I Freep main myself, I DO NOT want.

- Please implement some mechanics to discourage or frankly entirely prevent Grams and GV camps, these shuffle fights are mind-numbing, and prone to ending up in a winner-takes-all camp of the enemy until everyone's bored and logs off.

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Originally Posted by Spilo

<video>

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Completely agree with everything you said.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CHEBURASHKA

My solution is to add tier system to debuffs and bleeds on creepside. In order to remove one debuff you'll have to use 3 cleanses instead of 1 and after 1st cleanse the debuff tiers down (for example: 15% > 10% > 5% > removed).

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Jesust Absolute Christ No. Please, no, this idea is utterly horrible. Yes, large Freep Groups have decent cleanses, but when fighting in smaller groups or solo it's very easy to find yourself absolutely overwhelmed by debuffs and if you don't have a concerted effort of friendly players clearing you in medium to large fights you can have rows of debuffs and Disarm and Silence get lost in them, giving you 10 seconds of (for some classes) just being completely crippled and unable to use any skills.

It's great that Monster Play is Free, but non-vip free people can only pvmp for 6 hours with 20 mithril coins. This should be reorganized and I think it is necessary to encourage the free people to pvmp. It is necessary to consider that there are players who play the game from many different countries and that they cannot buy VIP all the time.

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Originally Posted by KillAllFrep

First off, thank you for working on the Moors. It's the only game-mode that's kept me playing LotRO for 15 years and I'm so happy to finally see it getting some love; if monetisation is what it takes then (within reason) by all means, monetise it. Competitive players have deep pockets.

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Yes, this is true. I want to make sure that any of the flame in this thread is from a bad history of PvP work in LOTRO, not directed towards Orion personally at all.

what worries me though is that champ sprint is still in, balancing stuff around worries me due cappy not being able to deal well with kiting and CC. Allowing creeps to have more utility significantly impacts the cappy in solo fights. The freep brands are bugged aswell, they were intended to have X amount of immunity, but that doesn't work. Cappy has one single skill the remove stun/dace/cj and that's fighting withdrawal. So that implies we're either forced to bias into a heavy self-sustain build to counteract kiting, or you simply don't stand a chance no matter how good your build is if you have NO self-sustain as cappy, any creep, even a rank 4 ####ter can kill a captain by simply kiting since we have absolutely nothing to really counter slows.

What am I asking?

Either:

• To remove the brands that have 1min cd(both sides), nerf champion utility, and be done with it.

or:

• The other option you can go for is to give the archer herald a stronger slow on captain.

In other words, do think of cc well cuz cappy out of all classes isn't doing well under a lot of CC pressure and anti-CC from the creep side since the captain itself has barely got any crowd control (slows, stuns etc)

main cause: champion
kill the monkey class

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KillAllFrep

Jesust Absolute Christ No. Please, no, this idea is utterly horrible. Yes, large Freep Groups have decent cleanses, but when fighting in smaller groups or solo it's very easy to find yourself absolutely overwhelmed by debuffs and if you don't have a concerted effort of friendly players clearing you in medium to large fights you can have rows of debuffs and Disarm and Silence get lost in them, giving you 10 seconds of (for some classes) just being completely crippled and unable to use any skills.

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Fair point. In that case silence duration can be just reduced to like 3-4 sec and CD slightly increased. That way it is useful but not op.
As for disarm, there is a DR for it: 20s have to pass since the application of the first disarm so that the second disarm could be applied.
If cleanse problem is not fixed, these skills and other pottable debuffs are just useless. Making disarms and silences usefull is a big improvement for creeps in terms of utility. Orion doesn't even need to come up with anything new, just fix the stuff that's already there.

I was really hopping for more realistic changes, this reads like a fail waiting to happens yet again.

All classes free - great, should have been done long time ago, regardless of the 15 Anniversary.

More Audacity - bad, it took me months to get 1 creep to 25, more grind now? no thanks.

All skills at rank 5 - big deal?!, it is currently at rank 6, not an impactful change.

Heal tagging removed? - stupid idea, now people won't play Defiler/Wl and won't lend a hand when needed. It already started, some players are practicing their dps instead of healing and aiding. As someone who plays all classes but especially DPS (BA, Reaver, Warg, Weaver) I couldn't care less if someone heal tagging me outside of the group/raid.

Where are the real issues resolves?

1. Fix Weaver and Warg lagging skills - several skills are not supposed to have any induction yet they take 1-2 seconds to execute.
2. fix pots and brand, they simply don't work.
3. Several skills - 'get a grip' for example are lagging big time.
4. Creeps dps is so low compared to freeps it is ridiculous (even with full 6 mastery + 6 critical and rank 25 audacity).
5. Freeps have too many knockdown skills with too much range and aoe radius.
6. Champion sprint is out of control
7. OPs and keep buffs need to be removed, it ruins everything.
8. Start banning cheating freeps who use macros and multi-boxing to rank up (aka fc-fight clubbing)

* you need to stop listening to feed-back from ahole youtubers who only play Champions, and start playing creep yourself to feel the frustration.

Some of us don't play freep at all, we find it boring, introducing more pve content to creeps would be the right thing to do (a few instances/skirmishes/raid).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brolad

Speaking of the outnumbered buff (Lainedhel's call to arms/Akulhun's something) - any chance that it could get removed or changed into something that doesn't buff combat stats? On bigger servers freeps tend to have it even at times when the numbers are equal.

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I'm looking at all the buffs since the peak numbers are nowhere near where they used to be.

Additionally, we're aware of the very real possibility of rank farmers and that they have existed for years. There are no silver bullet solutions. This does not mean that we're giving up on solutions.

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Originally Posted by Victor119977

If Orion reads this. Meta play will unfortunately always win over fun, hence it is up to the developers to make Meta fun.

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Of course I am reading this. I try to read all the discussions on the forums. Especially those that I have a hand in updating, refactoring, growing, or imagining.

[QUOTE=Victor119977;8145839]

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Originally Posted by Victor119977

It is probably unwise to touch upon the fact whether 24man raids are fun to be in, because it is subjective. However, we can all agree that being frozen in the same spot every 5 seconds, due the old LoTRO engine certainly places a demper on raids in general. And the effect a raid has on the rest of the moors, (making it feel empty because every player rushes to one location), is objectively not fun.

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I think it's a fair criticism of a flawed creation. No dispute from me. Further, the lag is something that we are aware of and that we are dedicating resources too over time to identify, address, and hopefully diminish. It's not just an Ettenmoors thing so there is something wider happening. In looking into the keep flipping issues I stumbled on some issues that I have yet to raise with our engineers. But, I am filing defects.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Victor119977

I am by no means an expert but could it be as simple to boost the renown/infamy game for solo/duo/fellowship play to such a degree Meta will shift.
By doing so the lag should subside and the moors will feel more active with wargs and burglars lurking in every corner.
To make things even more interesting boost commendations and renown/infamy for quests by a thousand? I can guarantee the world will feel active.

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There are other ways as well. The changes that are coming Soon™ are a step on what I am hoping will be a long road. I am also hopeful that I will not be the only hands that get into the sausage that makes the Ettenmoors.

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Originally Posted by Victor119977

To reiterate, rank 15 or obtain gear is the goal, not to have fun, in pvp for the majority of players. (they will never admit it). Therefore tune the moors and LoTRO engine limits to this, which will provide the illusion of fun by doing a grind.
(small disclaimer for anyone that cares enough to tell that their goal is to have fun in pvp and not gain rank 15 or get gear. Great good on you.)

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I think this incorrect. The objective of the Ettenmoors has always been to have fun. There were periods, early on, where it was not, and I busted my hump back then to get them to fun. We're limited by some factors, but we don't want to make the objective of gaining rank 15 the only thing you are striving for in the Ettenmoors.

To me, and I hope many others, the thrill of PvMP, and PvP in general are those "moments" where you were done and somehow you snatched victory from defeat. Or those experiences with allies that you look back on and just laugh or reminisce. The experience should be the goal. We're hopefully starting down the path toward making those experiences again.

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Originally Posted by Spilo

I won't shoot the messenger, as I assume this monetization is the only reason SSG let you off your leash to work with PvP, so we'll take what we can get.

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First, I have no leash. Second, no. Third, I wanted to get back into PvMP. I was fortunate enough to have some latitude to work in the 'moors again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spilo

However, I hope that you'll keep in mind how expensive buffs are for creeps, especially creeps who do not participate in mass RvR, as it is. Right now solo/small groupers have immense struggles just breaking even on fury pots/delving buffs/morale pots, much less new buffs. I honestly think the best course would be to completely remove delving pots and internally add the stats they provide to all Creeps (it's actually one of the big reasons why low rank creeps are so garbage- they aren't high enough rank to buy them and even if they could, can't afford them). It would show a continuation of your wise line of reasoning that there should NOT be a massive gap between lower rank and higher rank Creeps in terms of stats- that only discourages new and inexperienced players. If you can't remove the pots/add the stats, then cutting down the cost would be great, so Creeps can spend comms on Tinctures, Morale/Fury/Stun pots, and foods.

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Yes, costly and restrictive with the rank reqs. Being looked at.

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Originally Posted by Hallandil

Any hints on how to access the 50+ new monster skins added to the database?

https://i.imgur.com/DCldRBx.png

https://i.imgur.com/8fVEr15.png

My someone has been busy!

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All in due time.

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Originally Posted by Neinda

Question: Now that the proposed change out there is to prevent people from being in large raid groups, are you adjusting the Moors changes to be more small group and solo content? Not sure how the change to landscape groups will affect all of this. It seems to be changes working against each other. On one hand you are trying to bring life back to the Moors and raids again. On the other hand raids will no longer get credit for anything on landscape. Is the Moors landscape? Will raids still be possible in the Moors?

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Not sure where you are getting raids no longer get credit for anything on landscape. No changes were made to any of these interactions.

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Originally Posted by darksaiyan

- freeps get T4 equip and no changes to creep damage output... thank god, that the legendary weapons are still at 475
- CC is useless

tested on both sides a half hour

max mitigation phy and tact, 30% crit
with my RK i did 2 defilers, the first battle took a while no crit luck.... but in the end no chance for him
the second battle was over in under 10 seconds, essence of storm with 710k crit and then a static surge with 925k.... both normal crits... R15 fully buffed
against a BA I got a 130k crit vital target hit..... he was able to get me from 1,4 to 1,05m.... R15 fully buffed and full on tact mit... devasting epic con 600k

tested with my BA...
nearly the same damage output as on live... did a devasting hit with 220k on a champ with vital target...
then a warg an I tried a hunter.... he destroyed both of us, insane incoming damage and we got him to 200k left


again testing it with a new build

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This is great feedback.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spilo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8v7Fan0HC0

I got cordovan's endorsement... watch at 1.25 speed for maximum rage effect

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Good video. I'm not going to counter a lot of your gripes, because you're pointing out aspects of Audacity that I am well aware exist. But, what you have provided me are snippets of details that I can make adjustments to - this is good, Going to file a couple of bugs.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Not sure where you are getting raids no longer get credit for anything on landscape. No changes were made to any of these interactions.

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They're getting it from here: https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...69#post8145869

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Raid Groups playing in Landscape will no longer benefit from Open Tapping, and will also no longer receive money, loot, xp, reputation, quest advancement or deed advancement from monster kills in landscape.

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Originally Posted by Frappy

This is pandering in the extreme. I know most of the most committed players to PvMP are creeps and vocal about the perceived imbalances, and to internally justify man-hours on the necessary changes (in both directions) there has to be a return on that investment in terms of player engagement (and possibly in player store sales). BUT I disagree that creeps have 'always' lacked the tools.

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I think the lack of tools that are being referenced are ways to obviate the power-creep that is always inherent to player advancement since it is the main aspect of the game. Player skills sometimes completely negate game play in the 'moors. Outdistancing the range on instakills is a big one.

By tools, I am referencing counter play. I am a big advocate of counter play. Anything you can do, I can diminish - not remove or cripple - but, diminish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frappy

Last comment is to do with the commendations armour currently being barred OUTSIDE of PvMP. This was a balance issue with the release of Gundabad having teal 446 item level gear was more than intended for landscape and a block was swiftly patched in (after we'd spent thousands and thousands of comms) -- and now that the PvE gear from the raid is item level 470+ teals that change should be reverted and we should be able to use PvMP gear anywhere.

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It's not the stats. It's what audacity does on the general game.

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Originally Posted by XPICTO

I havent got the time to try Bullroarer yet but I have 2 concerns so far:
1. Purchase audacity tinctures with Mithril sounds like p2w. Making PVMP free for all but adding a purchasable buff with real money - me no like. Honestly I am not a fan of the tinctures. Will the cost be too high or too low? As if it stacks to 10 the total audacity will be 35, so why bother purchase audacity ranks when you can purchase tincures with comms/MC./
2. Removing inf/renown gain from healing outside of fellow is good, but this might encourage large groups/raids running around rather than more solo/small group roaming.

I will provide more feedback once I am able to test.

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1. The tincture always applies 5 levels. The tincture stacks to 10 but only one application at a time. Comms cost is nominal for tincutres. Mithril is just an alternate method to acquire.
2. So there might be incentive necessary for fellow play. Fair point.

Again, this is a give and take between we devs and you players right now.

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Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers

Orion seems to strategically be dancing around this when someone brings it up, not realizing that people just hate those lagout buttonmash fights.


This isn't Shadows of Angmar anymore..... the game just can't handle more than a 12v12.

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Not dancing. Not strategically. Yes, raids are bad because of lag. Not something I can sprinkle the magic pixie dust on and fix sadly.

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Originally Posted by Nanganark

Bullroarer U33.1 Preview #1; My suggestion and Thoughts

Freep-Side:

* Freep's Armor will get put into Inventory, after Game Crash and log out / back in to the Moor's. (without leaving the Ettenmoors).

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Known bug; investigating.

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Originally Posted by Nanganark

* Ettenmoors aren't Free2Play for the Free People.

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Known issue; fixed in next iteration of Bullroarer. (Difference between a bug and issue, is that one is in a backlog of items that will need to get addressed and prioritized the latter is in the process of being fixed or introduced with a recent change and must be fixed to complete said change.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nanganark

* Brawler: Rank-Buff isn't working for them.

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Can you verify which rank buff this is. Thank you for catching this, I will enter a bug.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nanganark

* Hunter: Needs a Upgrade like Warleader Mobilise Skill 55% Run-Speed.

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I'm not sold on this. I understand the sentiment but you still have mounts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nanganark

* Remove or reduce the log out lock from Freep to Creep side. (There's no reason anymore for it, because many of the players have like 5+ accounts to spy).

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Not sold on this. It's an interesting point and one that will be exacerbated with the move to free creepside/freepside.

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Originally Posted by Nanganark

* Ettenmoors access only with level 135 or 140. (What need lvl 20s to do in the Moor's?; Nothing -> Training-Dummies are all over Middle-Earth).

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Yeah, there needs to be a disclaimer that you will get your butt handed to you if you go in too early.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nanganark

* Armour/Jewellery Uprgrade prices. (Is there a price decrease possible? 115'000 Commendations only T4 without Upgrade is way to much; Upgrade from T3 -> T4 costs also 46'000 Commendations).

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I'm not planning on reducing these yet. There are reasons...but they are next step.

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Originally Posted by Nanganark

Monster-Side:

* [Tincture of the Sauron's Will] let the player use it with Audacity Rank 36 + 5 = 41 = More Buff Bonuses. Works on both Sides. (This Item let's player overcap the acutual Audacity Cap of 36).

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Yes. This is actually by design.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nanganark

* The Audacity cost is to high from 1-36 a player needs 115'000 Commendations. (maybe a little lowering this? or let Monster Player start with 24 or 25 Audacity?).

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Yes. This is also by design. The total cost is ~115k for each side. Give or take the free levels that the creeps can earn currently. Free levels seems like a nice reward.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nanganark

* [4 Awards of Audacity] items only for new Monsters. (All and good, but a little unfair to player's who've done the Intro already, don't you think so? Monster-Player, who've done the Intro should have these Items in Inventory).

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Yep, need to make a supplemental quest for old creeps to get those freebeies too. Need to bug it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

This is great feedback.

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https://c.tenor.com/c136KhwXENwAAAAC...rog-kermit.gif

....

That is a fictional scenario with made up numbers that isn't reflective of reality in the slightest... but ok.

May I suggest this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FM6rLhP4K8

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Originally Posted by Ksellos

New audacity is insanity. CC just doesn't work. This completely destroys some of the classes.

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So the CC is too high? Noted.

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Originally Posted by SingularityNow

As a creep still questing for maps, I don't think maybe Orion appreciates the impossibility of questing as a lowbie on an OVERPOPULATED server. It's not's not realistic at all. We'll never generate the comms to be effective. If you think we will, you're not playing the game we are.

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Where do you think I started in my return?

I get it. You're reacting to initial numbers. That's perfect. That's what we need. We need feedback, but it needs to be constructive. If you don't think I'm playing, that's fine.

I hadn't played PvMP in years...getting back in was like diving into Finnish Lakes after a sauna. I'm making adjustments and looking for feedback. Let's row in the same direction and a host of other colloquial sayings.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pinlu

So I did some testing on my Brawler against a couple of match ups (BA,Warg,Reaver,Defiler) And the amount of damage i was doing is obscene.

Solutions:
1.Do not release tier 4 gear, because it is just an increased stat bloat that is not necessary.
2. Increase creep base stats by a large number : Mastery is at 0 on a blackarrow with zero corruptions slotted, and this is really quite unfair. If keeping tier 4 gear is necessary, then please do increase stats or when this goes live IT WILL BE UNPLAYABLE.
3. Increase Monster player morale by atleast 15% - on my Brawler with no rank buff i have 1.7million, which is more than most creeps have with a high rank bonus.

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Are you saying that you took a fully kitted Brawler into the 'moors at rank 5 ish(15?) and you smashed face on a rank 0 unkitted monster player?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pinlu

The CC reduction is abit too strong on Bullroarer, The Idea is good but the execution is abit too potent. Stuns after once have no duration, and some effects do not even immobilize you. Perhaps lowering this to 55% or 60% would be far more playable, than the current 90%.

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Yes, I have that note.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pinlu

other observations aside from the obvious :
1.Brawler rank buff does not work (no rank bonus at all)
2. Creepside has some sort of weekly quests available, which are not available on freepside
3. Freep cloak has no audacity (making it negligible to wear the rank one = wearing trigger essences in ettenmoors, further freep dps snowballing)
4. Class Items should be added (With audacity or some reason to take them > champion can use the bow from Throne and retain the fight on essence)
5. I dont know if this is planned but Dar gazag defenders are not scaled, around 20 pulled and took over a minute to kill one player,same as outposts. I assume keeps are the same.

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1. Yep, is it the rank buff?
2. Players have it too - not weekly. It's a new Task available at the supplier.
3. By design.
4. No audacity, but this is not infeasible in the future - if.
5. Didn't touch DG. But that is interesting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcdaedalus

looking at these changes i may as well delete my creeps lol hunters on live can pretty much 2 -3 shot most creeps these changes properly mean 1shot is possible ( camo burn hot etc and hs) what was really needed was a buff to creeps damage output to match what freeps are capable of out there.....changes was needed for the moors to make it more balanced but this just seams to make it even worce than what we already had ( didnt think that was possible)

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Specifics help more than generalizations. Others are giving me those specific though. Thank you for the feedback.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by -Aran-

It's great that Monster Play is Free, but non-vip free people can only pvmp for 6 hours with 20 mithril coins. This should be reorganized and I think it is necessary to encourage the free people to pvmp. It is necessary to consider that there are players who play the game from many different countries and that they cannot buy VIP all the time.

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Known issue. Will be fixed with next Bullroare release.

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Originally Posted by Spilo

Yes, this is true. I want to make sure that any of the flame in this thread is from a bad history of PvP work in LOTRO, not directed towards Orion personally at all.

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My flame defence gear is old, but strong, and I am salty old bastiche. You really cannot hurt me.

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Originally Posted by Drarin

They're getting it from here: https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...69#post8145869

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Will have to validate that but I think that Ettenmoors quests are already set up to advance if in a raid.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Not sold on this. It's an interesting point and one that will be exacerbated with the move to free creepside/freepside.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Known issue. Will be fixed with next Bullroare release.

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I’m a bit confused by these statements. Is freepside also becoming free to access?

I like the changes you have made because they’re heading in the right direction.

Big thank you for the much-needed communication!

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Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers

https://c.tenor.com/c136KhwXENwAAAAC...rog-kermit.gif

....

That is a fictional scenario with made up numbers that isn't reflective of reality in the slightest... but ok.

May I suggest this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FM6rLhP4K8

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Again, it's feedback. Good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Atomos

I’m a bit confused by these statements. Is freepside also becoming free to access?

I like the changes you have made because they’re heading in the right direction.

Big thank you for the much-needed communication!

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Yes. The fix for the travel routes to the Ettenmoors requiring VIP or Mithril Coin expenditure is remove in a future Bullroarer update.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers

May I suggest this:

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Also, you may suggest that, can you tell me where you both sat with Audacity and rank?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Yes. The fix for the travel routes to the Ettenmoors requiring VIP or Mithril Coin expenditure is remove in a future Bullroarer update.

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In all the information I have read, nowhere does it say "VIP will no longer be a requirement for the Free Peoples." I mean... this is huge news. Why didn't you lead with that? Unless you are specifying that it will only be temporarily removed for Bullroarer testing.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

...you still have mounts.

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Yet no maps.

The consensus has always seemed to be that from a tactical standpoint...Maps>Mounts.

WL speed buff has simply increased that advantage for creep groups.

If balance is an objective, seeking parity for general movement speed/mobility would seem like a step in the right direction.

This has been floated before: disable freep mounts, give freeps access to maps that somewhat mirror creep map areas (100-200m away), reduce WL group speed buff to something similar to Hunter's FTPath...and turn everyone loose.

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Originally Posted by Intolerance

Yet no maps.

The consensus has always seemed to be that from a tactical standpoint...Maps>Mounts.

WL speed buff has simply increased that advantage for creep groups.

If balance is an objective, seeking parity for general movement speed/mobility would seem like a step in the right direction.

This has been floated before: disable freep mounts, give freeps access to maps that somewhat mirror creep map areas (100-200m away), reduce WL group speed buff to something similar to Hunter's FTPath...and turn everyone loose.

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Would prefer opposite of this. Maps have compounded the already zergy mentality that backdoors cultivated. It leads to fights being extremely concentrated because you're always a callout away from every creep coming to one spot. Would be infinitely worse if every freep could do that too. No maps at all would be a better solution and equalized movement speeds. Or perhaps fewer maps on longer CDs would be fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Yes. The fix for the travel routes to the Ettenmoors requiring VIP or Mithril Coin expenditure is remove in a future Bullroarer update.

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Awesome! Really looking forward to coming back on both sides. :)

I knew people who never wanted to play freepside because of the grind freep characters had compared to creeps. But likewise, I also knew people who never wanted to play creepside because they didn’t want to have to learn a whole new character that could only be played in PvMP. So I think this is a great change for both sides in order to increase PvMP population.

Also, SSG should maybe add some more PvE-related benefits for VIP in order to keep VIP still as an attractive option for all players.

Having 0 gear on except Legendary items,a good champ will beat most creeps like wargs (there are videos of it) nerf the freeps, if you guys want to take the easy way then just reduce the vitality on pvmp freep gear and do something about champion.
Nerf freeps thats a good way to start pvmp update.

Any idea when Brawlers will get things they're missing? Currently they do not get buffs from their ranks (Battlefield Promotion), which seems to be quite an oversight. I don't know if it's also good to request it here too, but any possibility brawlers could get some things to help in the moors such as a sprint or a skill to break from slows? Currently they have no way to counter-act and get away like other classes can.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Where do you think I started in my return?

I get it. You're reacting to initial numbers. That's perfect. That's what we need. We need feedback, but it needs to be constructive. If you don't think I'm playing, that's fine.

I hadn't played PvMP in years...getting back in was like diving into Finnish Lakes after a sauna. I'm making adjustments and looking for feedback. Let's row in the same direction and a host of other colloquial sayings.

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I'm rowing with you. I didn't accuse you of not play, I said "if". I'm sorry you took it that way.

And the context was a question I was hoping you'd address: How in your opinion then would low ranks compile the audacity they require if questing is too dangerous, and leaders won't take them into groups?