On the matter of Incentivization - for Players

Hello again!

Putting this up here for some feedback over the weekend. Same rules as the last large post will apply. I will do my best to discuss and respond. No guarantees that I can get to every response. Any offensive posts will be removed. We will review, and adjust as feedback dictates.

The subject of incentivizing more play in the Ettenmoors for the players and the monster players is subject that is always under review. For this post I am putting out some initial thoughts that we have on getting some incentive out there for the players!

First, with the inclusion of Grodris, we will be doing a few things:

1. Grodris will allow players and monster players to complete a quest to earn rewards for defeating her in the mines. This quest rewards a large amount of commendations and pushes along a tracker for weekly Ettenmoors rewards for both sides (don't ask about the monster player rewards just yet, those are not getting discussed in this post.)
2. Whichever side scores the killing blow on Grodris gains the quest completion and the benefits throughout the Ettenmoors.

3. Other quests completed in the Ettenmoors contribute to the weekly reward quest that comes out of the Ettenmoors.

4. Oh yeah, we are adding weekly quests rewards for players participating in the Ettenmoors!

How will this work?

Here are the thoughts we are currently mulling:

Tiered-weekly (Specific)

This option uses specific quest completions: Killing Grodris, Capturing Tirith Rhaw, Lugazag, Tol Ascarnen, and the Grimwood once each, 5 completions of the kill enemy player quests, and completing another 10 specific Ettenmoors quests, in a given week. You gain access to Reward Pack 2.

This unlocks access to complete a second weekly quest to complete the same cycle again. Doing so, provides Reward Pack 3.

Tiered-weekly (Generic)

This option, like the Tiered-weekly (Specific), has two weekly completion sets but combines the goals in the Ettenmoors together. Such that you would need to complete any 5 marquee quests in the Ettenmoors: Killing Grodris, Capturing Tirith Rhaw, Lugazag, Tol Ascarnen, the Grimwood, and (15) other quests in the Ettenmoors in order to get the Reward Pack 2. Then repeat the same to get Reward Pack 3.

Combined-weekly (Specific)

This option uses specific quest completions: Killing Grodris, Capturing Tirith Rhaw, Lugazag, Tol Ascarnen, the Grimwood, twice each, combined with killing a number of enemy players quests (10,) and completing another number (20,) of Ettenmoors quests in a given week. This would unlock tier 2 of the weekly rewards and grant you access to Reward Pack 2.

Combined-weekly (Generic)

In this option, you complete (10) top tier quests in the Ettenmoors [see above] and (30) other quests in the Ettenmoors and get access to Reward Pack 1.

Oh, Right, the reward tiers!

For the reward tiers we are thinking the following:

Reward Pack 3

Commendations: 1500
Infamy/Renown: 500
Virtue XP: 1000
Legendary Item XP: ~250,000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item traceries (Rare/Incomp)

Reward Pack 2

Commendations: 2500
Infamy/Renown: 500
Virtue XP: 2000
Legendary Item XP: ~420,000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item traceries (Rare/Incomp/Legendary)

Reward Pack 1

Commendations: 4000
Infamy/Renown: 1000
Virtue XP: 3000
Legendary Item XP: 675,000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item traceries (Rare/Incomp/Legendary)

What are your thoughts on these potential implementation? Concerns?

seems legit. Now we're getting somewhere.


if the lag doesn't shut the fights down, this could create some good circulation.

Hey Orion,

Thank you for your tireless communication. It's amazing =)

Could you put embers in there somewhere? So I can save time on other quests and go to the moors instead :D

The idea is nice. I am not sure the smaller servers will have the players to support taking keeps and the other big ticket PVE for the incentives. Maybe build some smaller server incentives into this system?

Also, are you building something into to this so the players who will not be named don't just log on alts and kill themselves x number of times to complete quests and get rewards? An incentive as described seems perfect for abuse and misuse unfortunately. :)

And, even though it is one of my less favorite parts of the game, maybe rather than tiered rewards, maybe some sort of reward track instead? The boxers will definitely ruin this system as proposed as soon as it is available.

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Originally Posted by Degelhil

Could you put embers in there somewhere? So I can save time on other quests and go to the moors instead :D

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What if, Ettenmoors gear generated from loot, was disenchantable into embers?

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Originally Posted by Neinda

The idea is nice. I am not sure the smaller servers will have the players to support taking keeps and the other big ticket PVE for the incentives. Maybe build some smaller server incentives into this system?

Also, are you building something into to this so the players who will not be named don't just log on alts and kill themselves x number of times to complete quests and get rewards? An incentive as described seems perfect for abuse and misuse unfortunately. :)

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It sounds like, on smaller servers, the weekly reward quests would be better served if they were generic, rather than specific.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

It sounds like, on smaller servers, the weekly reward quests would be better served if they were generic, rather than specific.

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What about both? Missions have the weekly 15 completions and another quest of 45 completions as a stretch goal. You have the generic as the Tier 2 that will reset weekly, and the specific as the Tier 1 that can reset weekly but will carry over until completed.

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What if, Ettenmoors gear generated from loot, was disenchantable into embers?

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YES.

Overall, i like the idea of the tiered weekly specific, that way you can get some rewards with a little work, and more for more work, if i'm understanding the scheme properly. If your example you only listed 2 tiers, is it safe you assume you could complete 3 times for all 3 rewards in a given week?

The kill enemy quests are too specific to locals, consider changing the quests to the area and allow them to be picked up and turned in at GV/Grams. Ex: TR kill quest becomes coldfells,

For consumables, is it possible to add selection boxes? Getting rewards is nice, getting stun pots 4 weeks in a row is not.

Traceries seem fine, fits with the scheme in the rest of the game.

Would consider adding enhancement runes to the rewards for completion as well, 20-40 (total, revised this when thinking about how many you can generate from dailies like in gundabad) would be nice depending on the tier of rewards completed?

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Hello again!
Reward Pack 3

Commendations: 1500
Infamy/Renown: 500
Virtue XP: 1000
Legendary Item XP: ~250,000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item traceries (Rare/Incomp)

Reward Pack 2

Commendations: 2500
Infamy/Renown: 500
Virtue XP: 2000
Legendary Item XP: ~420,000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item traceries (Rare/Incomp/Legendary)

Reward Pack 1

Commendations: 4000
Infamy/Renown: 1000
Virtue XP: 3000
Legendary Item XP: 675,000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item traceries (Rare/Incomp/Legendary)

What are your thoughts on these potential implementation? Concerns?

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I would maybe tweak the virtue XP a bit up. That could lure more ppl into the moors.
For the treasure part, i like it. But i would maybe take out some of the rng for the part that can be used outside of the moors.
It would be disappointing for a player to just do pvmp the first few weeks and then just pulling rare traceries. That could be highly discouraging. So if someone farmed the best reward pack, maybe make it a random legendary tracery box. As those are weekly, as i understood, its just 52 random legendary golden traceries a year. And its not like for free.

Rather than adding these weekly quests, could you perhaps just revise the token of valour chests to dispense these 3 reward packs based on which tier of quest we turn in? There's already 3 tiers of token quests, and they dispense level 105 junk currently. Seems like a no-brainer way to modernize their rewards, plus you avoid having to create new quests. Not sure how it would dispense renown, maybe just add some tyrant lashes in there. I haven't creeped in forever so I forget if there's a similar quest on creepside.

-Increase the Virtue XP Gained from the rewards

-Add Enhancement runes into the rewards to lvl legendary li level(Like gundabad dailies/weeklys has)

-Let us select the tracery from purples/teals/golds , I don't want block rating for 52 weeks on a tactical class, less rng please. / Same for PVE land
-Let us select the consumable rewards /less rng

-Here is the opportune moment to add another TIER of reward pack strictly for VIPs = more Incentive to become a VIP for the player both creep and freep alongside more revenue for SSG to continue developing the moors and other things. This could definitely replace the removed VIP only for free peoples to enter the ettenmoors.


Cheers for your work, have a beer

It’s so cool you want to incentivize players to play on the moors! However, I think that another thing that would help is improving the scaling for lower level freeps to level cap. I wanted to try out playing as a freep on the moors, having felt that my monster player was making painstaking progression and was very weak in general and always getting squashed by single freeps just riding through while I was killing norbogs minding my own business (and the lack of players to join up with in the moors didn’t help lol). Unfortunately, as my highest character is level 47, when I first went into the moors, I was sadly introduced to the reality that the scaling to level 140 did not help at all, and I was crushed worse by the creep I met than I had ever been by genuine level 140 players coming through when I was playing my creep. I would feel more incentivized to play if I could play both my creep and my creep when I felt like it, instead of being bound to play my creep if I wanted any sort of success. So yeah, better scaling should definitely be on the list of incentives.

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For the reward tiers we are thinking the following:

Reward Pack 3

Commendations: 1500
Infamy/Renown: 500
Virtue XP: 1000
Legendary Item XP: ~250,000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item traceries (Rare/Incomp)

Reward Pack 2

Commendations: 2500
Infamy/Renown: 500
Virtue XP: 2000
Legendary Item XP: ~420,000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item traceries (Rare/Incomp/Legendary)

Reward Pack 1

Commendations: 4000
Infamy/Renown: 1000
Virtue XP: 3000
Legendary Item XP: 675,000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item traceries (Rare/Incomp/Legendary)

What are your thoughts on these potential implementation? Concerns?

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My suggestion:?

- Reward Pack 3:
Infamy/Renown: 1'000
Commendations: 2'000
Virtue XP: 1'000
Legendary Item XP: ~250'000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item: 15x Enhancement Runes (Incomp)

- Reward Pack 2:
Infamy/Renown: 2'000
Commendations: 4'000
Virtue XP: 2'000
Legendary Item XP: ~420'000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item: 20x Enhancement Runes (Incomp/Legendary)

- Reward Pack 1:
Infamy/Renown: 3'000
Commendations: 6'000
Virtue XP: 3'000
Legendary Item XP: 675,000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item: 25x Enhancement Runes (Incomp/Legendary)

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

It sounds like, on smaller servers, the weekly reward quests would be better served if they were generic, rather than specific.

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On the PVE side of the world there are options for gaining rewards via both solo mission/delving/reward track and group content. Adding more PVE to the Moors is both good and bad. It is good for the reason that more freeps may visit the Moors and maybe even venture off the steps and be out and about. Creeps too need options for both large group and solo incentives just like the freeps have now, especially on servers outside of Arkenstone and Evernight.

I still wish you would move to one central keep, probably TA, with a couple of outposts and shrink the PVP area in that way. The other locations can be buffs and bonuses. Dark Age of Camelot had smaller battlegrounds that were very busy and very popular with players. The central keep function kept things active. PVP could and did happen anywhere on the map but was mostly guaranteed in the central keep location. It would also help the balance if you threw a 3rd faction out there some day like DAoC and ESO. The residents of the Delving have been evicted from their home of many years, let them fight for their own place in the Moors too. It changes the dynamics of us vs. them because there are always 2 "thems" to consider when the "us" is conquering the zone. You are completely changing the Moors so why not go even further? :)

Sorry but you are not listening again ! We don’t want any more pve in a pvp zone . If you want to incentivise players then get on with creating balance . Make creep an enjoyable experience where you are not getting face rolled by some little oink that you have empowered . I’m just not interested in some drake roaming around that gives me questionable rewards and buffs . Stop nerfing creeps every single opportunity you get and deliver what you promised to deliver as did your predecessor Vastin . Balance !!

I will give a suggestion that may be exceedingly unpopular among pvmp players. But I am trying to focus on what could encourage the new players that we seem to have a good number of to jump in to pvmp.

PvMP has, of course, a huge barrier to entry. People on either side that have been playing for many years have an enormous advantage in ranks and gear and skill. Newcomers are fairly well guaranteed to lose any one versus one fight against an experienced player and to contribute very little in mass melees. Some people do not mind this and are willing to endure months of defeats to "pay their dues" and catch up to the point where they go from almost totally useless to not very productive. But many others don't see the point - not in a game where a new and poorly geared player can do quite well in pve. How can we reduce the barrier to entry? Player skill is not something we can fiddle with - a brand new character with the crappiest of starter gear will still have an edge if run by one of the better pvmp players. But can we neutralize ranks and gear as factors? Not permanently, of course, but temporarily just to get new people involved on a "fresh start" or "fair chance" basis.

Option 1 - probably not feasible because so many existing players will absolutely hate it. A fresh start pvmp zone. Perhaps a clone of the Moors. No existing ranks or gear allowed. Perhaps a Treebeard type of slow progress to keep it that way for a while. Maybe with rank caps going gradually up - call it a progression pvmp zone.

Option 2 - similar concept but less likely to cannibalize the current activities in the Moors. Limited availability rather than (or in addition to) progression features. Maybe available once a week. Maybe available like festival zones are - once a month the Moors "festival" becomes active for a week.

I normally just lurk in the forums and tend not to post however I feel compelled to reply to this. I get it, I am all for getting more players into the moors on either side but how do you not see this is the wrong way. This will simply lead to farming, you will see 20+ freeps group up and flip everything blue for their weekly quest, then suddenly you will see them all go offline and amazingly you will see 20+ creeps come online and proceed to flip the whole map red for their quests. (Understand not clearly stated that it will be the same quests for creeps but really what else could it be).

What amount of time would you expect it to take to complete these and hour or so maybe, flip it all, then get the relics and the possibly the drake. Flip spend another hour on other side, done. All that time spent with no incentive to PVMP, only PVE. And truth be told, alot of those flippers will be done with the moors for the week after that run. Back to Forges / Lofts, HH, etc.

Sorry I believe you are trying to make it better and I am truly rooting for you but these incentives are not the way. Unfortunately you can't do it the other way either, putting weekly quests and rewards on killing x number of creeps / freeps. That will just lead to more farming.

Maybe make the quest to take the keeps (TR / TA / Lugz / LC or whatever) and hold it for an hour. Each one with a different counter so if you lose TA, the opposing sides clock starts counting and you need to go recapture it and the clock starts over you on TA while the other keeps continue counting down.

Just a thought, I don't claim to have the answers, I sure someone will follow this comment with something brilliant that may inspire. /s

This, as is, not only wont achieve the desired result but as it begins to feel more like a PVE area, could be detrimental to the population.

With respect for the difficult job you have and the efforts you put into it, for your consideration.

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Originally Posted by istvana

I will give a suggestion that may be exceedingly unpopular among pvmp players. But I am trying to focus on what could encourage the new players that we seem to have a good number of to jump in to pvmp.

PvMP has, of course, a huge barrier to entry. People on either side that have been playing for many years have an enormous advantage in ranks and gear and skill. Newcomers are fairly well guaranteed to lose any one versus one fight against an experienced player and to contribute very little in mass melees. Some people do not mind this and are willing to endure months of defeats to "pay their dues" and catch up to the point where they go from almost totally useless to not very productive. But many others don't see the point - not in a game where a new and poorly geared player can do quite well in pve. How can we reduce the barrier to entry? Player skill is not something we can fiddle with - a brand new character with the crappiest of starter gear will still have an edge if run by one of the better pvmp players. But can we neutralize ranks and gear as factors? Not permanently, of course, but temporarily just to get new people involved on a "fresh start" or "fair chance" basis.

Option 1 - probably not feasible because so many existing players will absolutely hate it. A fresh start pvmp zone. Perhaps a clone of the Moors. No existing ranks or gear allowed. Perhaps a Treebeard type of slow progress to keep it that way for a while. Maybe with rank caps going gradually up - call it a progression pvmp zone.

Option 2 - similar concept but less likely to cannibalize the current activities in the Moors. Limited availability rather than (or in addition to) progression features. Maybe available once a week. Maybe available like festival zones are - once a month the Moors "festival" becomes active for a week.

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This is a great idea. Maybe two Moors: Intro Moors for those who are just starting out and a veteran Moors area. Ability to enter the intro Moors area could be restricted to low ranks and less than level cap players. The NPCs in the intro area would be scaled down appropriate to the players. SSG could even make a bit of money selling tortoise stones to prevent people from ranking out of the intro area for those that want to PVP in the lower level areas. It might even slow down the farm groups who camp out for new players on both sides.

Please pardon me for commenting on this topic for I do not frequent the Ettenmoors and lack any measure of talent required to flourish in such a place. Yet, I do read all of Mister Orien's posts and this one caused me to ponder a curious question: How would I motivate someone such as myself to become involved in the Ettenmoors?

During times of war, when able bodied men march off to defend their country, those who remain behind do not remain idle. It is very common for the artisans, workers, and women to supply such an army. A number of quests in The Wastes reflect this process. In World War II, the character Rosie the Riveter embodied this idea of the home front supplying the war front.

What if player characters could supply provisions and supplies to fighters in the Ettenmoors, causing the Free Peoples to gain some advantage?

This creates a problem, for monster players have no potential pool of non-combat player characters to supply them. Such a system would quickly grow lopsided. To balance things, perhaps the server could track the sum total of player character defeats each week. As player characters are defeated, this would embolden monster players, causing them to become more powerful. Players such as myself could then craft provisions and supplies, representing the ability to feed and heal those injured player characters, erasing the monster player advantage. Both player character defeats and provision production will naturally rise or fall based on server population, so if the right multiplicative coefficient were found, they would naturally balance.

The suggestion above could become a part of the upcoming crafting update, giving every player on the server a reason to assist, directly or indirectly, with the Ettenmoors.

Player characters who provide provisions and supplies for the Ettenmoors would not gain Commendations or any other currencies associated with fighting in that region. Instead, they would gain quartermaster ranks and spoils of war. Quartermaster ranks could work like Ettenmoors ranks, with 15 tiers, and go before the player character's name. With enough effort, a player character could become the Quartermaster General. I leave it to others to decide what spoils of war would look like.

Thank you for your consideration and good luck with your efforts to revitalize the Ettenmoors. I sincerely hope those efforts ultimately succeed and bring much happiness.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

What if, Ettenmoors gear generated from loot, was disenchantable into embers?

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I would say: Yes.

BUT: It would be completely inconsistent with the normal procedure, because normally the drop armour can be disenchanted into the target currency with which you can buy this exact armour.
My suggestion would be to include the usual 500 embers within the reward package 2. Maybe you could also let the player choose? Either X commendations or 500+ embers on task completion.

I think a true incentive can only be created when players also get things that are useful to them outside of the moors. Many players start their game week on thursday, when they start to do all the weeklys, instances, delvings ...
However, since many players do not have infinite playing time available, they will naturally strive to maximize utility. If players now have an equivalent alternative and it makes no difference whether they complete 6 gundabad instances, 15 missions or a weekly in the Moors, then players who are up for PvMP, assuming the effort is not out of proportion, will prefer to go that route. As previous comments have mentioned, legendary item rewards would also be nice.

It should also be reconsidered how to deal with items from the Moors. Do you want to make the gear attractive only for the moors or should it be a true alternative for PvE BiS gear?

Not my suggestion, just a thought experiment : if you would add a BiS Armour in the Moors that is better than any other PvE gear, what would happen? Most likely, no one would do the instances anymore and everyone would be in the Moors. Since the constant desire to improve is one of the main drivers of the endgame, you can work with this. Since you certainly don't want to have a dead PvE endgame, that obviously wouldn't be the right way to go.
It will be difficult to find the golden mean here. Your ideas are good - I like them. But I also think that itemization is a much stronger pull-factor than virtue XP oder LIXP could ever be. According to my observations, many players - not all - want the drip. Imagine, there are players who have been doing the same raid over and over and over again for a year now, although there can no longer really be any talk of fun. And why do they do that? Because of the rewards! So - use and work with your powers as a game designer! =) You already did the same thing with delvings btw...

Maybe: a Helmet which can be improved with commendations and which is BiS and integrates with the new raid armour's set bonus ... or smoething else... many possibilities; just normal incentives = dead moors when U35 comes live

The fundamental question must be asked whether the Moors should be understood as an integrated or segregated system in the game. If they are to be an integrated system, then they must also provide a PvE value, so every item can be worn outside the moors etc. (so that it stands btw. Crafting, Delvings, Instances). If you want it to be a segregated system (so that it stands alone), then we need generally more players (maybe possible with a good scaling system) and incentives adjusted for that purpose (moors rewards only e.g. commendations, PvMP Armour Drops etc.).


cheers

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Originally Posted by Degelhil

Maybe: a Helmet which can be improved with commendations and which is BiS and integrates with the new raid armour's set bonus ... or smoething else... many possibilities; just normal incentives = dead moors when U35 comes live

The fundamental question must be asked whether the Moors should be understood as an integrated or segregated system in the game.

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I don't think you understand the outrage it would cause if even one BiS item required PvMP. PvMP has always been a completely standalone optional activity- many LotRO players only ever signed up for the game because there is no PVP required in any way. Taking steps to incentivize the Moors is great, but nothing in the game should ever require it.

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Originally Posted by Nanganark

My suggestion:?

- Reward Pack 3:
Infamy/Renown: 1'000
Commendations: 2'000
Virtue XP: 1'000
Legendary Item XP: ~250'000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item: 15x Enhancement Runes (Incomp)

- Reward Pack 2:
Infamy/Renown: 2'000
Commendations: 4'000
Virtue XP: 2'000
Legendary Item XP: ~420'000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item: 20x Enhancement Runes (Incomp/Legendary)

- Reward Pack 1:
Infamy/Renown: 3'000
Commendations: 6'000
Virtue XP: 3'000
Legendary Item XP: 675,000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item: 25x Enhancement Runes (Incomp/Legendary)

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I'm not sold on the infamy/renown rewards, but in the grand scheme an extra 3k/week isn't huge so its not something i would throw a fit about. The increased comms i like a lot, for max tier reward getting enough to at least buy a piece of jewelry would be nice, which is 6k comms unless i'm mistaken?

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Originally Posted by Snowlock

What about both? Missions have the weekly 15 completions and another quest of 45 completions as a stretch goal. You have the generic as the Tier 2 that will reset weekly, and the specific as the Tier 1 that can reset weekly but will carry over until completed.

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We could do this, but on servers where the population might be more reticent or have difficulty in switching the control of towers, keeps, and the Grimwood; it makes more sense, to me, to default to a generic mix of completions over the complete these 5 specific quests.

The reset would function in the same way that the weekly mission quests currently function.

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Originally Posted by Daec

In(sic) your example you only listed 2 tiers, is it safe you assume you could complete 3 times for all 3 rewards in a given week?

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The goal would be 2 rounds of completion with only 2 sets of rewards.

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Originally Posted by Daec

The kill enemy quests are too specific to locals, consider changing the quests to the area and allow them to be picked up and turned in at GV/Grams.

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The tasks, introduced last year, to kill players anywhere would also contribute to ensure that the specific locale kill quests were not necessary.

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Originally Posted by Daec

For consumables, is it possible to add selection boxes? Getting rewards is nice, getting stun pots 4 weeks in a row is not.

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Yes, though that might be an iterative process.

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Originally Posted by Daec

Would consider adding enhancement runes to the rewards for completion as well, 20-40 (total, revised this when thinking about how many you can generate from dailies like in gundabad) would be nice depending on the tier of rewards completed?

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Possibly. That, again, would likely be an iteration on the rewards.

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Originally Posted by MedianThrol

I would maybe tweak the virtue XP a bit up. That could lure more ppl into the moors.

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Yes, it could. It could also make the Ettenmoors the primary avenue for gaining Virtue XP - which is something that we, honestly, do not really want. Options are better than something that is markedly better than anything else.

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Originally Posted by MedianThrol

So if someone farmed the best reward pack, maybe make it a random legendary tracery box. As those are weekly, as i understood, its just 52 random legendary golden traceries a year. And its not like for free.

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If they pulled insanely well it could be up to 104 gold traceries. From our standpoint, that is really high.

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Originally Posted by Vilan

Rather than adding these weekly quests, could you perhaps just revise the token of valour chests to dispense these 3 reward packs based on which tier of quest we turn in? There's already 3 tiers of token quests, and they dispense level 105 junk currently. Seems like a no-brainer way to modernize their rewards, plus you avoid having to create new quests. Not sure how it would dispense renown, maybe just add some tyrant lashes in there. I haven't creeped in forever so I forget if there's a similar quest on creepside.

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Nope. There are simply too many tokens of valour to make this happen.

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Originally Posted by blacknazgul13

It’s so cool you want to incentivize players to play on the moors! However, I think that another thing that would help is improving the scaling for lower level freeps to level cap. I wanted to try out playing as a freep on the moors, having felt that my monster player was making painstaking progression and was very weak in general and always getting squashed by single freeps just riding through while I was killing norbogs minding my own business (and the lack of players to join up with in the moors didn’t help lol). Unfortunately, as my highest character is level 47, when I first went into the moors, I was sadly introduced to the reality that the scaling to level 140 did not help at all, and I was crushed worse by the creep I met than I had ever been by genuine level 140 players coming through when I was playing my creep. I would feel more incentivized to play if I could play both my creep and my creep when I felt like it, instead of being bound to play my creep if I wanted any sort of success. So yeah, better scaling should definitely be on the list of incentives.

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It's not really the focus of this thread, but I will say that we have some ideas around this. It is not likely that there will ever be a "perfect solution" for up-leveled characters in the Ettenmoors. But, we do think we have a nifty possible solution that will take a little longer to prove and implement. More on that, when we get closer to what it might be.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

The tasks, introduced last year, to kill players anywhere would also contribute to ensure that the specific locale kill quests were not necessary.

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Can the task item persist after completion? For creeps with an upcoming 1m grams map it isn't so bad, probably more burdensome after the other map changes, but freeps GV map is 30m still. Regardless, for both sides having the task item persist until say you complete the cap stone quest for the series (think its 15?) would be nice.

Even if it isn't the goal of the rewards, having the keep quests converted into ones for the whole zone would be nice :)

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Originally Posted by istvana

Option 1 - probably not feasible because so many existing players will absolutely hate it. A fresh start pvmp zone. Perhaps a clone of the Moors. No existing ranks or gear allowed. Perhaps a Treebeard type of slow progress to keep it that way for a while. Maybe with rank caps going gradually up - call it a progression pvmp zone.

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This would splinter the existing population further, not a likely scenario.

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Originally Posted by istvana

Option 2 - similar concept but less likely to cannibalize the current activities in the Moors. Limited availability rather than (or in addition to) progression features. Maybe available once a week. Maybe available like festival zones are - once a month the Moors "festival" becomes active for a week.

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There are already plans for something like this to start occurring in the Ettenmoors on a more regular basis.

Great addition to PvMP. I hope you will consider increasing the VXP reward. This would not only make the game more alt-friendly, it would also give PvE players an incentive to play PvMP.

Additionally, perhaps consider adding Enhancement Runes as a reward. That way PvMP players can actually upgrade their LIs by playing PvMP.

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Originally Posted by EliEvent

Maybe make the quest to take the keeps (TR / TA / Lugz / LC or whatever) and hold it for an hour. Each one with a different counter so if you lose TA, the opposing sides clock starts counting and you need to go recapture it and the clock starts over you on TA while the other keeps continue counting down.

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While something like this would be possible, it would also force players to stay online for the duration, given the way that we would need to track the events in the quest system. So this option, while a very good thought, is not technically feasible.

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Originally Posted by SophieTheEnchantress

Please pardon me for commenting on this topic for I do not frequent the Ettenmoors and lack any measure of talent required to flourish in such a place. Yet, I do read all of Mister Orien's posts and this one caused me to ponder a curious question: How would I motivate someone such as myself to become involved in the Ettenmoors?

During times of war, when able bodied men march off to defend their country, those who remain behind do not remain idle. It is very common for the artisans, workers, and women to supply such an army. A number of quests in The Wastes reflect this process. In World War II, the character Rosie the Riveter embodied this idea of the home front supplying the war front.

What if player characters could supply provisions and supplies to fighters in the Ettenmoors, causing the Free Peoples to gain some advantage?

This creates a problem, for monster players have no potential pool of non-combat player characters to supply them. Such a system would quickly grow lopsided. To balance things, perhaps the server could track the sum total of player character defeats each week. As player characters are defeated, this would embolden monster players, causing them to become more powerful. Players such as myself could then craft provisions and supplies, representing the ability to feed and heal those injured player characters, erasing the monster player advantage. Both player character defeats and provision production will naturally rise or fall based on server population, so if the right multiplicative coefficient were found, they would naturally balance.

The suggestion above could become a part of the upcoming crafting update, giving every player on the server a reason to assist, directly or indirectly, with the Ettenmoors.

Player characters who provide provisions and supplies for the Ettenmoors would not gain Commendations or any other currencies associated with fighting in that region. Instead, they would gain quartermaster ranks and spoils of war. Quartermaster ranks could work like Ettenmoors ranks, with 15 tiers, and go before the player character's name. With enough effort, a player character could become the Quartermaster General. I leave it to others to decide what spoils of war would look like.

Thank you for your consideration and good luck with your efforts to revitalize the Ettenmoors. I sincerely hope those efforts ultimately succeed and bring much happiness.

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I love the thought that went into this. Thank you. It inspires a quick story time with old man, Orion.

Back in the, proverbial, day, Ettenmoors efforts had a direct impact on the game world outside. When the forces of evil were winning a pall cast over the world and had a truly MINOR impact on the game world. When the force of good were winning there was another MINOR buff that spread across the game world. Players on the whole hated this aspect of the system.

Now, you may wonder why I would equate your idea with this anecdote of LotRO history. If, we did something, like this it would make more sense to bring that aspect of the system back. Or, create an area of the world where this was felt.

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Originally Posted by Daec

I'm not sold on the infamy/renown rewards, but in the grand scheme an extra 3k/week isn't huge so its not something i would throw a fit about. The increased comms i like a lot, for max tier reward getting enough to at least buy a piece of jewelry would be nice, which is 6k comms unless i'm mistaken?

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For me, Infamy/Renown is about the smaller servers so they can move forward too.

Could also look like this:

- Reward Pack 3:
Infamy/Renown: 4'000
Commendations: 2'000
Virtue XP: 1'000
Legendary Item XP: ~250'000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item: 15x Enhancement Runes (Incomp)

- Reward Pack 2:
Infamy/Renown: 5'000
Commendations: 4'000
Virtue XP: 1'500
Legendary Item XP: ~420'000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item: 20x Enhancement Runes (Incomp/Legendary)

- Reward Pack 1:
Infamy/Renown: 6'000
Commendations: 6'000
Virtue XP: 3'000
Legendary Item XP: 675,000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item: 25x Enhancement Runes (Incomp/Legendary)

That would then probably be too much even for the small servers, as I said are only suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Daec

Can the task item persist after completion? For creeps with an upcoming 1m grams map it isn't so bad, probably more burdensome after the other map changes, but freeps GV map is 30m still. Regardless, for both sides having the task item persist until say you complete the cap stone quest for the series (think its 15?) would be nice.

Even if it isn't the goal of the rewards, having the keep quests converted into ones for the whole zone would be nice :)

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A few things here:

1. Return to Gramsfoot skill is now on a 1m cooldown
2. New PLAYER to the Ettenmoors tutorial is in for the next BR
3. During that new PLAYER to the Ettenmoors tutorial, they will get a permanent Return to Glân Vraig skill on a 1m cooldown
4. Task item does not persist due to technical limitations
5. Location based kills will NOT be converted to the entire zone for exploitative reasons

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Originally Posted by Nanganark

For me, Infamy/Renown is about the smaller servers so they can move forward too.

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Bear in mind, that we have just reworked the rewards on all quests in the Ettenmoors to increase the commendation rewards on all quests. Some of those quests also had their infamy/renown updated.

Rank...needs to be looked at.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

A few things here:

1. Return to Gramsfoot skill is now on a 1m cooldown
2. New PLAYER to the Ettenmoors tutorial is in for the next BR
3. During that new PLAYER to the Ettenmoors tutorial, they will get a permanent Return to Glân Vraig skill on a 1m cooldown
4. Task item does not persist due to technical limitations
5. Location based kills will NOT be converted to the entire zone for exploitative reasons

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Can we pick up multiple task items then so it functions more like a consumable than a unique item, or are there also limitations around that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Bear in mind, that we have just reworked the rewards on all quests in the Ettenmoors to increase the commendation rewards on all quests. Some of those quests also had their infamy/renown updated.

Rank...needs to be looked at.

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I'm aware of that, that's why I'm talking about the small servers where not as much goes as on Arkenstone/Evernight, it's really needed on smaller servers unless there's another targeted change coming as far as ranks are concerned, which again I'm fine with, however others won't share the opinion, which isn't a bad thing.

Perhaps also having housing rewards to pvmp would interest people. Like yard statue of raid boss or lumber camp palassades. I know there are people that are obsessed with housing...to put it mildly.

Also on a note of map exhaustion, some say they are tired with the map. I know ettens is going to stay and I like it, but for those who don't perhaps, and I don't know if it would be technically possible, to have a rotating summer, winter, fall ettenmoors map. So same map but with seasonal assets and texture. Its crazy how you can change the look of something and it feels it all changed but nothing really has. I don't see that this would change any game mechanic, just a way to always keep it fresh.

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Originally Posted by Denthemen

Perhaps also having housing rewards to pvmp would interest people. Like yard statue of raid boss or lumber camp palassades. I know there are people that are obsessed with housing...to put it mildly.

Also on a note of map exhaustion, some say they are tired with the map. I know ettens is going to stay and I like it, but for those who don't perhaps, and I don't know if it would be technically possible, to have a rotating summer, winter, fall ettenmoors map. So same map but with seasonal assets and texture. Its crazy how you can change the look of something and it feels it all changed but nothing really has. I don't see that this would change any game mechanic, just a way to always keep it fresh.

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I would actually love this idea of seasonal Ettenmoors.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

I love the thought that went into this. Thank you. It inspires a quick story time with old man, Orion.

Back in the, proverbial, day, Ettenmoors efforts had a direct impact on the game world outside. When the forces of evil were winning a pall cast over the world and had a truly MINOR impact on the game world. When the force of good were winning there was another MINOR buff that spread across the game world. Players on the whole hated this aspect of the system.

Now, you may wonder why I would equate your idea with this anecdote of LotRO history. If, we did something, like this it would make more sense to bring that aspect of the system back. Or, create an area of the world where this was felt.

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It's a cool idea. A buff to crafting speed or crafting xp or crafting guild xp would be a cool way to tie the "homefront" into the war. They supply us with consumables, our victories make the things they like to do easier and both groups feel like they're participating. Make some moors specific consumables they can craft, and give them titles and housing decorations associated with crafting amounts of them. May be special crafting stations in Ost Ringdir and Hoarhollow with enhanced attributes to bring them out to do their support on the front lines without actually participating in combat... I know it's not in scope of this discussion, but it's a cool idea.

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Originally Posted by Halphast

I don't think you understand the outrage it would cause if even one BiS item required PvMP. PvMP has always been a completely standalone optional activity- many LotRO players only ever signed up for the game because there is no PVP required in any way. Taking steps to incentivize the Moors is great, but nothing in the game should ever require it.

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You might be right about that. However, PvMP once was a premium feature and not everyone could participate. That has changed.

For example, at level 130, there was also a BiS crafting breastplate - so technically this armour required crafting. Also a system that not everyone likes. I don't see a problem here - but I still understand your concerns.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

This would splinter the existing population further, not a likely scenario.


.

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It would be nice if you would consider and maybe run a test/pilot of a lower level PVP area. It would serve the purpose of allowing new players to PVP and lower level freeps and creeps an opportunity to learn how PVP works in LOTRO. It would also serve a secondary purpose of setting up a location where people could just have fun and PVP vs. worrying about rank and everything else. In the long run it could possibly increase Moors participation as people would have the opportunity to learn the ropes without the massive farms of lowbies that happen these days. Please consider a test of this concept.

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Originally Posted by Neinda

It would be nice if you would consider and maybe run a test/pilot of a lower level PVP area. It would serve the purpose of allowing new players to PVP and lower level freeps and creeps an opportunity to learn how PVP works in LOTRO. It would also serve a secondary purpose of setting up a location where people could just have fun and PVP vs. worrying about rank and everything else. In the long run it could possibly increase Moors participation as people would have the opportunity to learn the ropes without the massive farms of lowbies that happen these days. Please consider a test of this concept.

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Everyone starts out as clueless and mostly hapless in the Moors. To me, your Moors experience is really formed by the people you group with. Find a tribe/kin that matches the experience you want to engage in. There are super casual groups all the way up to 'hardcore'. Just turn off OOC.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Yes, it could. It could also make the Ettenmoors the primary avenue for gaining Virtue XP - which is something that we, honestly, do not really want. Options are better than something that is markedly better than anything else.

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I will gladly give a feedback how much Virtue XP i needed to max out all my characters from level 84 to 85 next week, i need worth lots of month of reward packs as proposed here. But maybe you should run those numbers too, to see if a big amount of virtue xp is really that bad to the character progression.
For me the virtue system is a bit flawed, who reaches all max virtues on a character by just deeding? And once they do, what was this time investment? Well but that is another topic, this here is about ettenmoors rewards. Maybe all virtue XP systems need a little bump up then.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

If they pulled insanely well it could be up to 104 gold traceries. From our standpoint, that is really high.

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Well if someone pulled 0 in 1 year, it will leave a bad taste too. Just wanted to mention, less rng is better than going full rng.
Gacha games give you at least a pity roll which will grant you a golden item every X pulls (Often 80 or 100).
I would just give out a currency and let ppl pick their reward. Even if they gotta save up for a month or 2, better than rolling and loosing. In my case every teal and violet tracery will land in the shredder, sadly, because we cant even convert them to a golden version. On top of all the useless golden traceries that occupy like 40 slots in my storage because we cant change them.



Props to the person that brought up the glain treasure chests with 105er loot, you could just reuse that system and give it a purpose again too.

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Originally Posted by Daec

Can we pick up multiple task items then so it functions more like a consumable than a unique item, or are there also limitations around that?

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Limitations, sadly.

Completing the quest once would consume them all.

Yes why don't you add a tier 3 raid and a 6 man and couple 3 mans aswell...smh

It's a PvP zone..for PvP, if people want to be incentivized, they can do what we have been doing for years, go kill the other side.

People who despise/dislike PvMP, arent coming out to PvP, so you can can the incentive take.

If it were upto me, I'd remove all the quest rewards out there now.

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Originally Posted by Hilawolf

Everyone starts out as clueless and mostly hapless in the Moors. To me, your Moors experience is really formed by the people you group with. Find a tribe/kin that matches the experience you want to engage in. There are super casual groups all the way up to 'hardcore'. Just turn off OOC.

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This is a great idea on paper. The problem in the Moors these days are the farming groups that only exist to annihilate low level freeps and creeps. For whatever reason there are some people in game who bounce from server to server looking for people to destroy and crowing about it in OOC. They take the fun out of PVP. A lower level area where people are capped on rank and level would serve the purpose of being mostly for PVP and the farmers would get little to no gain. My concern about the incentives being displayed is that this will just be used to farm creeps, get their weekly rewards and go back to PVE. The rewards need to be limited to Moors use only in my opinion in order to give the creeps a chance at PVP. The low level PVP zones were outstanding and always busy in Dark Age of Camelot. If fact the lowest level zone "Thidranki" (SP) was always active. It was an area for fun and PVP. Those interested in rank farming had very little to gain in the low areas. I would be perfectly happy to be rank and level capped if it meant actual PVP and fewer farmers in the area. Let the farmers go to the high level areas and do their farming and move on. Let those interested in actual PVP have an area for PVP. A area that was dedicated to PVP would be an incentive to go back to the Moors and the game.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Nope. There are simply too many tokens of valour to make this happen.

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Then have quests drop a new "Token of Renown" instead so everybody starts from zero. Making tokens of valour worthless shouldn't bother too many people, they're already pretty close to worthless. Maybe make them disenchantable into a few comms to cut down on the number of torches and pitchforks heading your way if you're worried about it.

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Originally Posted by ScoobySnackz

Yes why don't you add a tier 3 raid and a 6 man and couple 3 mans aswell...smh

It's a PvP zone..for PvP, if people want to be incentivized, they can do what we have been doing for years, go kill the other side.

People who despise/dislike PvMP, arent coming out to PvP, so you can can the incentive take.

If it were upto me, I'd remove all the quest rewards out there now.

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Do you really understand so little about the design of the zone? It sounds like you'd be content to just shuffle back and forth from GV or Grams to the nearest keep all day long. Many people do not actually enjoy that. But there is no alternative, because there is no one else to be found on other parts of the map. Hence, an incentive has to be created to make people use others parts of the map. This is the way to do that. If done correctly, it should improve the quality of PvMP. PvE isn't the goal. It's the means to an end. Would've thought that's quite clear.

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Originally Posted by SophieTheEnchantress

What if player characters could supply provisions and supplies to fighters in the Ettenmoors, causing the Free Peoples to gain some advantage?

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And what about Creeps? There is no system outside the Moors whereby players could engage in activities that would benefit Creeps in the Moors. It would certainly be lore-breaking for our main characters to be intentionally aiding Angmar in that way. So while it's a brilliant idea in theory, it would necessarily be entirely one-sided in practice.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

For the reward tiers we are thinking the following:

Reward Pack 3

Commendations: 1500
Infamy/Renown: 500
Virtue XP: 1000
Legendary Item XP: ~250,000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item traceries (Rare/Incomp)

Reward Pack 2

Commendations: 2500
Infamy/Renown: 500
Virtue XP: 2000
Legendary Item XP: ~420,000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item traceries (Rare/Incomp/Legendary)

Reward Pack 1

Commendations: 4000
Infamy/Renown: 1000
Virtue XP: 3000
Legendary Item XP: 675,000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item traceries (Rare/Incomp/Legendary)

What are your thoughts on these potential implementation? Concerns?

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That looks like a whole lot of freep rewards and not much else. Outside of the comms and infamy, what are the creeps getting as a reward/treasure? Looks like freeps get comms AND gear AND Virtue XP AND item XP AND traceries. Creeps get a stack of consumables. Am I reading that correctly? Honest question.

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Originally Posted by Aeviternus

Do you really understand so little about the design of the zone? It sounds like you'd be content to just shuffle back and forth from GV or Grams to the nearest keep all day long. Many people do not actually enjoy that. But there is no alternative, because there is no one else to be found on other parts of the map. Hence, an incentive has to be created to make people use others parts of the map. This is the way to do that. If done correctly, it should improve the quality of PvMP. PvE isn't the goal. It's the means to an end. Would've thought that's quite clear.

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The map is way too big, and always has been.

Maybe Orion should remove stuff/cut it down instead.

You and Orion can have all the hopes and dreams you want of new people coming out to PvP, but the simple fact of the matter is the people are out there that want to PvP already, and incentivising being out there isnt going to suddenly pull in players, on smaller servers especially, you guys live a pipe dream.

And after Orion does all this nonsense, you'll wonder why your pipe dream didn't come to fruition.

It doesn't matter what Orion does, people have been shuffling for years, and its going to happen regardless.

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Originally Posted by gildhur

And what about Creeps? There is no system outside the Moors whereby players could engage in activities that would benefit Creeps in the Moors. It would certainly be lore-breaking for our main characters to be intentionally aiding Angmar in that way. So while it's a brilliant idea in theory, it would necessarily be entirely one-sided in practice.

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Hello, Gildhur. If you read my original post more closely, you will find I attempt to address this very real issue by balancing player defeats against crafted provisions and supplies.

For example, on a given server, let us say 1,000 player character defeats occur each week, on average. Let us also suppose crafting player characters produce 1,000 provision and supply items each week. In this case, 1,000 - 1000 = 0 so neither side will gain an advantage in the Ettenmoors.

Now let us say the developers release some new dungeons. Average player character defeats per week rises to 1,200 as group players learn the new dungeons. To compensate, crafting player characters must increase their output to 1,200 provisions and supplies each week. If they do not, 1,200 - 1,000 = 200 net advantage for monster player characters. Monster player characters will gain an advantage until group players get their business in order or convince their crafting peers to increase production.

Let us say the equilibrium state on a server is 1,000 player character defeats to 500 provisions and supplies. If we add a multiplicative coefficient of 2 to the second term, 1,000 = 2 x 500.

As an aside, the reason I chose player character defeats as a balancing force was because of delving missions. Based on my reading, players characters suffer numerous defeats completing them. How can the Free Peoples possibly be winning when they are suffering so many defeats?

Now let us consider what happens if Mister Orion cannot balance character defeats versus provision and supply production. The server cannot track player character defeats. Player character defeats vary wildly from week to week. Provision and supply production varies wildly from week to week. It proves impossible to establish a baseline for comparing the two factors. I sincerely have no desire to cause unhappiness for anyone so in these cases, another balancing mechanism must be found. If no balancing mechanism can be found, the idea cannot work.

Other possible balancing mechanisms:

The Free Peoples start out each week at a net disadvantage of 1,000. This disadvantage declines as crafting player characters produce provisions and supplies. When server wide provision and supply production reaches 1,000 or more, equilibrium exists in the Ettenmoors. In this case, monster player characters start every week with an advantage.

The Free Peoples start out each week at a net disadvantage of 1,000. This disadvantage declines as crafting player characters produce provisions and supplies. When server wide provision and supply production reaches 1,000 or more, equilibrium exists in the Ettenmoors. Crafting player characters can over produce provisions and supplies to a maximum of 2,000. In this case, monster player characters start every week with an advantage but if crafting player characters generate enough material, the advantage eventually swings in favor of the Free Peoples.

Every time a monster player character defeats player character, it generates 10 points of monster advantage. One unit of provisions and supplies generates one point of player character advantage. Monster players can also generate advantage by turning in the bits and bobs they gain from landscape quests. Advantage swings from moment to moment depending on if crafting player characters can keep up with the advantage resulting from defeats and monster player questing. Maximum advantage caps exists to prevent a blow out.

The system works as describe above but factors in the number of monster player characters active in the Ettenmoors at any particular moment.

Please let me think about this some more. Any crafting system connected to the Ettenmoors must prevent blow outs in either direction. Perhaps the best way to prevent a blow out is to hinge gains on the number of characters present on each side. For example, if 10 monster player characters face 50 player characters, the monster player characters need some huge bonus to compensate. How does all of this work with strong-point control?

Maybe monster players get gigantic siege engines when numbers swing in favor of the Free Peoples, allowing them to reach and demolish siege troops (players camping a strong-point).

Again, please pardon my intrusion into a place where I do not belong. I find this fun to think about. How do you balance a place where imbalance of numbers is the norm? Please understand, I am not suggesting anything _should_ happen. I am merely pondering possibilities.

Obviously this is exactly what we need in a pvp zone.... more PVE.... [sarcasm] - Hells teeth... what are you thinking !! And ahem ahem... LAG anyone? Talk about the dog walking the owner....

https://i.ibb.co/6NwF1v0/pvepvp.webp

Orion, thank you for your posts and the communication in this thread. They have been highly informative. I am very excited for these coming features/changes! :)

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

[*]During that new PLAYER to the Ettenmoors tutorial, they will get a permanent Return to Glân Vraig skill on a 1m cooldown

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Hallelujah! This, plus the Carry-alls, are my most-wanted QoL improvements for the Moors for a long time. Glad to see the map will be a skill and not an item :)

-Bel

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

If they pulled insanely well it could be up to 104 gold traceries. From our standpoint, that is really high.

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I think a monthly quest (which could either have separate objectives or be "Complete Weekly four times") with a gold tracery token might be a better solution and incentive (I know it would be for me). This would be 12 across an entire year. These would have to be tokens and not random, however, as the random golds already have around a 50/50 chance of being useless (on a character with no golds at all), and even higher chances of being useless on a character with some or many gold traceries. 12 tokens across a year would motivate players, but won't take away from other events and content that grant tracery tokens (since we need 23 of them per build per character, with some having two or three builds).

-Bel

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

What if, Ettenmoors gear generated from loot, was disenchantable into embers?

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I would support this.

-Bel

Orion, all of this is a noble goal and SSG trying to get players to return to the Moors is very much appreciated. Rewards in many cases are a nice carrot to chase. The problem I am seeing here is that even if you get people to come back to the Moors, it will be temporary unless you address the problems that drove people (mostly creeps) away from the Moors. Nothing here in the incentives gives creeps a reason to believe they stand a chance to survive any better with the new rewards than the current configuration. The main problem of creeps being in a less than ideal place is still there. Yes, you are changing things up a bit and changing Isendeep Mine from a creep/freep keep to a delving owned keep but that is just the same old PVE with a new name. It really does not change or help creep survivability in the Moors. It does not address the current movement problems accross the map. None of these changes address the poor behavior on the part of just a few individuals that have caused the Moors to be somewhat toxic and are the reason behind some of the recent changes to maps. The rewards you are offering freepside stand a very real chance to turn the Moors into a freep PVE farming area which is temporary at best. Maybe consider implementing changes to the Moors that make it better for PVP and then implement the rewards to keep people playing in the Moors. Please focus on good and rewarding PVP first. The current proposed incentives are nice but they are focused on bringing freeps out to farm and PVE for better PVE raid gear and items. At a minimum, please don't offer freeps anything useful outside of the Moors. Think back to the ancient times when we used to go out to the Moors and turn in quests just to get destiny points so that we would have them to buy the perks for instances and raids.

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Originally Posted by Vilan

Then have quests drop a new "Token of Renown" instead so everybody starts from zero. Making tokens of valour worthless shouldn't bother too many people, they're already pretty close to worthless. Maybe make them disenchantable into a few comms to cut down on the number of torches and pitchforks heading your way if you're worried about it.

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its true that there are a lot of tokens of valour in many vaults. so these existing tokens should maybe not be used for too important a reward system in any revamp. It is worth noting that they were all Earned however. There is an opportunity here to introduce another currency to run in parallel (ssg may have some particular expertise in this regard ! ) . by running a minor and major currency you may be able to please the most amount of players. Minors could be turned in for either moors or PvE rewards. Majors could be rewarded by the new 'package system' proposed and could be exchanged for better and different rewards likewise for moors PvE. It is worthy of note that currently freeps have a much heavier advancement burden to complete each update and therefore a more intense reward weighting seems reasonable under the current state of play. If it still remains possible for rewards to be spent on either side (comms) then this also needs consideration as to the outcomes. Tokens that can be traded with no RNG component and swapping have , i believe , the greatest chance of maximising player engagement. It is also noteworthy that many players have a freindbase of moors and PvE participants who are currently exclusive to each other. Rewards that may be exchanged for some PvE benefit could attract some casual play into the moors and boost overall enjoyment. To that end however I would make tier 2 jewellery offer better audacity and let the t3 t4 gear remain the goal for committed players with a tweak to the cost , currently in the realms of 105,000 comms for a full set of t4. Players who would love to 'have a go' on their alts are basically priced out of the game on this basis and may suffer 'fatigue' on the same old toon. So to be clear i would not offer the 'suite' of rewards being discussed but an amount of a new token so that the player can reward themselves as they please. The level of reward should reflect the cost and pacing of progression and goal achievement or gaining competitive status. Ultimately.....some players will turn up not for the baubles but the sheer joy of it....but sadly those numbers are insufficient and the reward system of play is only right and proper.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dranak123

its true that there are a lot of tokens of valour in many vaults. so these existing tokens should maybe not be used for too important a reward system in any revamp. It is worth noting that they were all Earned however. There is an opportunity here to introduce another currency to run in parallel (ssg may have some particular expertise in this regard ! ) . by running a minor and major currency you may be able to please the most amount of players. Minors could be turned in for either moors or PvE rewards. Majors could be rewarded by the new 'package system' proposed and could be exchanged for better and different rewards likewise for moors PvE. It is worthy of note that currently freeps have a much heavier advancement burden to complete each update and therefore a more intense reward weighting seems reasonable under the current state of play. If it still remains possible for rewards to be spent on either side (comms) then this also needs consideration as to the outcomes. Tokens that can be traded with no RNG component and swapping have , i believe , the greatest chance of maximising player engagement. It is also noteworthy that many players have a freindbase of moors and PvE participants who are currently exclusive to each other. Rewards that may be exchanged for some PvE benefit could attract some casual play into the moors and boost overall enjoyment. To that end however I would make tier 2 jewellery offer better audacity and let the t3 t4 gear remain the goal for committed players with a tweak to the cost , currently in the realms of 105,000 comms for a full set of t4. Players who would love to 'have a go' on their alts are basically priced out of the game on this basis and may suffer 'fatigue' on the same old toon. So to be clear i would not offer the 'suite' of rewards being discussed but an amount of a new token so that the player can reward themselves as they please. The level of reward should reflect the cost and pacing of progression and goal achievement or gaining competitive status. Ultimately.....some players will turn up not for the baubles but the sheer joy of it....but sadly those numbers are insufficient and the reward system of play is only right and proper.

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maybe just let the TOV's be applied to the reward track albeit with a high conversion cost.

What I would like to see is additional ranks. Once I hit 15 I pretty much lost all interest in pvmp. Bump that up to 20 or 25 and I'll head back.

Hi Orion

Would it be possible to add in the class armour barter npcs from The Sundering of Osgilliath old PvMP map to Glan Vraig or make the armour available as cosmetics?

It would be great to acquire more of the cosmetic appearances that are currently not available.

Thanks

Why not give players the option as to which route they want to go?

I.e., You could give players an option to choose between generic or specific for each tier. Limitations would be that you can only choose one, or hold one of the quests from that tier at any one time. You can cancel to grab the other one before completing that tier for the week, but would have to restart progress.

Other thoughts: The renown/infamy for the tiers seem quite low. Particularly for the final tier, the amount of effort and coordination required to get them done across a week, you would likely earn way more infamy/renown and comms by just fighting - or, camping people at GV/grams with ranged pew pew fights. As such, I'd suggest 7.5k infamy/renown for completing the final tier, 3000 infamy/renown for tier 2 and 2500 infamy/renown for tier 3. Really give players a reason to consider these at the forefront of their mind, and strive towards that final one.

It would be nice to see this being a) so rewarding, and b) so varied in the quest locations required, that we see a bit more roaming of the map.

I'd also suggest that commendations have some sort of direct scaling to the renown/inf reward. In your proposal, you have:
- Pack 3: 3x Comms for each renown/inf
- Pack 2: 5x Comms for each renown/inf
- Pack 1: 4x Comms for each renown/inf

Perhaps to make it friendly to newer players who are after audacity, it could be highest at tier 3.

A concern I have might be whether or not the weekly's are achievable in small groups.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

What if, Ettenmoors gear generated from loot, was disenchantable into embers?

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This is a great idea.

Although why not have bartered audacity gear from the vendors be disenchantable, too? Even if it was pithy?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyran86

Hi Orion

Would it be possible to add in the class armour barter npcs from The Sundering of Osgilliath old PvMP map to Glan Vraig or make the armour available as cosmetics?

It would be great to acquire more of the cosmetic appearances that are currently not available.

Thanks

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Those are already on the barterer, as the Tier 3 PvMP armour.

I am curious. I thought the creep map changes were intended to encourage small group PVP and get away from large raid groups in the Moors. Now, there are incentives being considered that require very large raid groups to complete the quests?

Here's a thought. How about making rank actually worth perusing and ban hammer clear farmers.

• R15 BIS Cloak selection box with every level increase
• R12-R15 Char Frames
• R12-R15 tiered discounts on PvMP gear (R15 gets ALL PvMP gear free)
• R12-R15 gated weapon cosmetics
• R15 + PvMP deed gated armour cosmetics

I spent years grinding my face off on a small server, pre-mass server merge. Every time I go to GV feel disrespected.

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Originally Posted by Aeviternus

Those are already on the barterer, as the Tier 3 PvMP armour.

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I did not know this thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScoobySnackz

The map is way too big, and always has been.

Maybe Orion should remove stuff/cut it down instead.

You and Orion can have all the hopes and dreams you want of new people coming out to PvP, but the simple fact of the matter is the people are out there that want to PvP already, and incentivising being out there isnt going to suddenly pull in players, on smaller servers especially, you guys live a pipe dream.

And after Orion does all this nonsense, you'll wonder why your pipe dream didn't come to fruition.

It doesn't matter what Orion does, people have been shuffling for years, and its going to happen regardless.

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Then leave. If you truly think that new people won't join the moors then it is 100% a dead zone. What Orion does here absolutely WILL draw new people and returning players to the zone with proper incentivization and that is the ONLY way to maintain a PvP zone because there will be a trickle leaving so you must maintain an incoming trickle as well. Your philosophy of "Just let us shuffle" brought the moors to where it is. Happy to see Orion trying to bring it out of that mud.

On the matter of incentivization. Overall I like the ideas. But as others have said the comms rewards need to be significant. Getting full Audacity on either side is a significant slog and this can be a turnoff. Big comm rewards from these weeklies would certainly alleviate some of those feelings of grindiness.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nioca

I am curious. I thought the creep map changes were intended to encourage small group PVP and get away from large raid groups in the Moors. Now, there are incentives being considered that require very large raid groups to complete the quests?

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Mhm, it seems the direction PvMP is heading changes by how the devs feel that week. But one thing is certain when it's all said and done, it's still going to be a lagfest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J-Moneyforever

Then leave. If you truly think that new people won't join the moors then it is 100% a dead zone. What Orion does here absolutely WILL draw new people and returning players to the zone with proper incentivization and that is the ONLY way to maintain a PvP zone because there will be a trickle leaving so you must maintain an incoming trickle as well. Your philosophy of "Just let us shuffle" brought the moors to where it is. Happy to see Orion trying to bring it out of that mud.

On the matter of incentivization. Overall I like the ideas. But as others have said the comms rewards need to be significant. Getting full Audacity on either side is a significant slog and this can be a turnoff. Big comm rewards from these weeklies would certainly alleviate some of those feelings of grindiness.

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Incentives and rewards are a great idea. Shuffling is going to happen no matter what. People go to the spots where there will be other people, thus the shuffle. The reward examples listed lean toward rewarding freeps for mostly PVE activities. Yes, I expect it will draw large groups of freeps to PVE in the Moors and if they can get embers, traceries, essences and enhancement runes it will be a great location to farm for PVE items. I don't see much of anything to draw creeps to the Moors and keep them there to be food for freeps. The reasons that most of the creeps gave up on the Moors are still there and I doubt the PVE rewards listed are going to draw them back in large numbers and keep them in the Moors. Hopefully I am wrong and hopefully giving a few rewards to PVE will help the Moors and not create a messy farm fest situation. I wish SSG would address the PVP problems and add the PVE bonuses later as a bonus instead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nioca

I am curious. I thought the creep map changes were intended to encourage small group PVP and get away from large raid groups in the Moors. Now, there are incentives being considered that require very large raid groups to complete the quests?

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No incentives, as outlined in this thread are aimed at "very large" raid groups.

More missions and grind. No longer a social group having fun. More mission junk is not pvp

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J-Moneyforever

Then leave. If you truly think that new people won't join the moors then it is 100% a dead zone. What Orion does here absolutely WILL draw new people and returning players to the zone with proper incentivization and that is the ONLY way to maintain a PvP zone because there will be a trickle leaving so you must maintain an incoming trickle as well. Your philosophy of "Just let us shuffle" brought the moors to where it is. Happy to see Orion trying to bring it out of that mud.

On the matter of incentivization. Overall I like the ideas. But as others have said the comms rewards need to be significant. Getting full Audacity on either side is a significant slog and this can be a turnoff. Big comm rewards from these weeklies would certainly alleviate some of those feelings of grindiness.

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No it wont, the shuffle is here to stay right next to the lag, and you'll come to the same conclusion eventually.

Changing the map does not change mentality, and what little new or returning players is generated, will soon go extinct once again.

Also, as was mentioned by someone else, Orion wants smaller skirmishes between players, but then wants to add back the raid PvE of the delving. Do you really believe that people are going to raid up for the dragon, then break up into smaller groups to go back to PvP? If so then you have bigger faith in the community than I do.

I'm still waiting for all these new and returning players that were supposed to be generated with the LOTR dumpster fire show from Amazon lol.

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Originally Posted by ScoobySnackz

No it wont, the shuffle is here to stay right next to the lag, and you'll come to the same conclusion eventually.

Changing the map does not change mentality, and what little new or returning players is generated, will soon go extinct once again.

Also, as was mentioned by someone else, Orion wants smaller skirmishes between players, but then wants to add back the raid PvE of the delving. Do you really believe that people are going to raid up for the dragon, then break up into smaller groups to go back to PvP? If so then you have bigger faith in the community than I do.

I'm still waiting for all these new and returning players that were supposed to be generated with the LOTR dumpster fire show from Amazon lol.

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Well there's a serious dose of reality that will go ignored, and unheeded. I don't see how with the track record of lag for years, and failure of anything they try to progress, gives anyone hope. ie. skirmish, big battle, warsteed. over bloated everything, I mean I remember having a 2v2 encounter that lasted an hour, it was the best hour I spent in the moors, the power management was real, not like the joke it is now. and killing anyone in 2 seconds was a rare thing. very rare. now it is the norm. Raids of a 100 or more, with non crippling lag, yet it did admittedly stutter at times as to be expected of the days of grand sized raids, on both sides. but now it lags unplayable with 5-10, so yeah I don't see a future, or a great comeback. but hey keep trying, and hoping for another however many years.

Some ideas to incentivise play in the Ettenmoors.

1. Legendary Reward Track XP per monster player defeat depending on the rank. Low LI XP for low ranks and high LI XP for high ranks.

2. Bounty quests - Kill x rank player for x rewards. Possibly make it required for you not to be defeated before returning to x location for the extra challenge?

3. Supply run quest - Deliver supplies to a keep within the time limit without being defeated. Could cash out reward or gamble on another supply run for higher rewards or lose everything gained.


2 and 3 could potentially work for monster players as well for defeats of ranked free people players and creep controlled keeps. Disabling the use of maps while the quest is active so that you can't just map around may be required.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScoobySnackz

No it wont, the shuffle is here to stay right next to the lag, and you'll come to the same conclusion eventually.

Changing the map does not change mentality, and what little new or returning players is generated, will soon go extinct once again.

Also, as was mentioned by someone else, Orion wants smaller skirmishes between players, but then wants to add back the raid PvE of the delving. Do you really believe that people are going to raid up for the dragon, then break up into smaller groups to go back to PvP? If so then you have bigger faith in the community than I do.

I'm still waiting for all these new and returning players that were supposed to be generated with the LOTR dumpster fire show from Amazon lol.

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Lag yes. Shuffle no.
I swear Lotro PvP must have stolen some yall's lunch money. The personal vendetta is wild. Pretty sure a lot of you aren't even playing right now but just being mad on the forums.
Lotro PvP used to be absolute top tier. Then it was garbage so I left for like 4-5 years just occasionally checking in to find the dumpster fire lugz BD-Grams Shuffle or TR BD-GV shuffle. I have had more round the map action outside of the shuffle in the last 3 weeks than I had in the entirety of 4-5 years. Of course there will always be shufflers but NOW there's also other fights to be had around the map due to some of the recent changes. And these efforts by Orion will expand those opportunities even more. The lag remains a crippling issue but perhaps reducing NPC load or something will make it better. We'll see. But in terms of other changes the zone has moved in a positive direction, any attempt to say otherwise leads me to believe you're a shuffler who is mad there's other action. Or you just like hating things people like to be cool on the internet. Either way, blessings upon you, you need them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J-Moneyforever

Lag yes. Shuffle no.
I swear Lotro PvP must have stolen some yall's lunch money. The personal vendetta is wild. Pretty sure a lot of you aren't even playing right now but just being mad on the forums.
Lotro PvP used to be absolute top tier. Then it was garbage so I left for like 4-5 years just occasionally checking in to find the dumpster fire lugz BD-Grams Shuffle or TR BD-GV shuffle. I have had more round the map action outside of the shuffle in the last 3 weeks than I had in the entirety of 4-5 years. Of course there will always be shufflers but NOW there's also other fights to be had around the map due to some of the recent changes. And these efforts by Orion will expand those opportunities even more. The lag remains a crippling issue but perhaps reducing NPC load or something will make it better. We'll see. But in terms of other changes the zone has moved in a positive direction, any attempt to say otherwise leads me to believe you're a shuffler who is mad there's other action. Or you just like hating things people like to be cool on the internet. Either way, blessings upon you, you need them.

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Yes the recent changes have been so popular, that all the smaller servers are dead once again, after smaller servers were seeing action they hadnt seen in years prior to Emissaries coming in. You live in delusion and claim everyone else is mad. Dont play your phony virtuous blessings nonsense, save that for the feeble minded like yourself.

I'm quite surprised by the proposed changes, as if there aren't already enough opportunities for Freeps to earn Inf and renown.
The incentive is already there if someone wants to do PvE in the zone; one can earn more than enough.

The main issue is that one is useless in PvP during the early stages and needs a group to carry them, the proposed changes here don't accomplish anything in that direction.

A new player in the Ettenmoors simply doesn't have fun being farmed by other players, and it's not due to the skill of individual players; it's the current design, the proposed changes here don't accomplish anything in that direction.

And I don't think the problem is that there aren't enough free players; rather, there aren't enough creep players. Creeps have a significantly harder time leveling with the current quests, as burglers and hunters start lurking even before Grams, not to mention the Hobbit village.

I must say, I'm quite surprised by the approach here.
Instead of allowing monsters to play in small groups, meaning to design the game in such a way that raids on the creep side can be dispensed with, the opposite is being achieved here.
The more overpowered the freeps, the larger the group of creeps needs to be to be competitive.

The first thing Mr. Orion should do is reintroduce a cooldown for switching from freep to creep and set the cooldown to at least one hour.
Next, perhaps Mr. Orion should step out of the comfort zone and see what other game developers are doing instead of always going their own way. As the recent changes have shown, the creeps have disappeared from most small servers and are now playing on EN or Ark.. So the freeps got nothing to do now and you add more Quest and turn that area into a PVE Zone ?! to repopulate the Thing.

As another example, the player who deals the final dmg to The Drake gets the Kill ? after killing 40 Dragons with 5-10 mil hp and clapping 600million Hp from the Boss the last one who does the dmg will get the Kill ?!?!?!??!?!!?!?!??!?! what in the F.

To Orion directly: Maybe you are not so isolated that you have someone in your family or circle of acquaintances who has not yet played LOTRO, and you could ask them to give it a try, especially playing as a monster, and ask him/her/it/ for feedback ?!

I dont want to be offensive here but all you do is offensive to me

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Originally Posted by ScoobySnackz

If you play on Ark you wouldn't know what proper PvP is. The shuffle will always be here, lets hope you wont when Orion's changes do nothing to make PvP better/different and your feelings get hurt. Go in peace troll.

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Playing this game exclusively for PvP is a path to pain. That said everyone who plays primarily to PvP in this game is on Ark. People on other servers occasionally PvP but the people who want PvP to be great because they won't play if it's not are all on Ark and EN.
Like I said. Seems like Lotro PVP stole your lunch money. Changes are good. And as someone who is actually playing the game outside the shuffle the action has improved significantly and will continue to. But enjoy the dying shuffle :)

The question for SSG is are you trying to get people to the Moors to PVE and thus populate the area even if it is not with PVP activity? Are these rewards designed to give freeps an alternative to the now year old dailes in Gundabad to obtain embers, traceries, enhancement runes, etc? Your suggestion of having gear from the Moors grant embers makes it better than the gear drops we get from Pughlak or Dhurstrok for example. Those on T1 give crafting mats when broken down. It would help to understand the goal here with the new PVE activities you are developing to bring people out to the PVP area. It sounds more like the Moors will be a PVE area where PVP can take place the way I read the activities and rewards.

And I am closing the thread before we devolve any more. Thank you for your participation.