But some people here said that Corsairs were bad people that don't get along with the free people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV6Soflcabw
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But some people here said that Corsairs were bad people that don't get along with the free people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV6Soflcabw
It wouldn't be a corsair if it's a freep. If ssg went that route it would be something like a Mariner, which are common in gondorian, numenorian, or even elf lore (think of earendil and elwing). Ssg probably uses corsair as a name holder in the files that ghyn was looking at though
Also Corsar can be river hobbitQuote:
Originally Posted by theultimatekyle
The initials he found are clearly Corsair but whatever they do I hope it's not actually called that in the final version...
"You're a Corsair, aren't you? My cat is lost! Would you help me find it?" would sound like a completely insane thing to say to someone known as a Corsair and it would happen in every single quest. Corsair, Haradrim, Easterling... these words have bad connotations in the West (and Corsair most likely worldwide, near all shores).
Considering all of Mister Orion's recent work on the Ettenmoors, one cannot help but wonder if we could see the first new monster play class in 15 years (or so).
Corsair for the Ettenmoors and Mariner for the Free Peoples would make a lot of sense.
Looking at a map of Middle Earth, if Aragorn can bring Umbar to heel, he gains complete control of the sea on the west coast of Middle Earth. This would afford him immense commercial and military advantage against future enemies. Conquering Umbar would also end the schism that currently divides the men of Gondor and eliminate potential contenders for the throne from that region. Almost every story in middle earth begins with our character at a massive disadvantage. Perhaps we will finally take the offense in the manner of Alexander of Macedonia.
It occurs to me that the ocean off Umbar could become a Monster Play area, with corsair and mariner captains fighting one another for control of the sea. That would be daring and unexpected.
My understanding is that Eärendil the Mariner was Tolkien's very first character. He is the first half elf. He is the father of Elrond. He is the guy who convinced the Valar to intervene in Middle Earth and fight Melkor/Morgoth. If the writers are really daring, they could make mariners half elves. I know Radhrain will rebuke me for that last comment, and perhaps I deserve it, but this writing team often bends the background material to suit player desire.
There is much reason to hope for the future of Middle Earth. Do not wring your hands in despair, brave Lords and Ladies. Embrace possibility.
Say my name and I appear...Quote:
Originally Posted by SophieTheEnchantress
You know there were mariners who were just plain old Elves, right? Cirdan's people. No need for to go making up anything crazy.
Yeah, elves, men, high elves, and even the elusive river Hobbits would all work as mariners
I really hope that they don't call the new class Corsair (unless of course they are a creep class), as Tolkien always had corsairs as bad guys, cruel sea pirates who haunted the coasts of Middle-earth during the Third Age. Tolkien wrote in one of his letters that the Corsairs "are imagined as similar to the Mediterranean corsairs: sea-robbers with fortified bases"
The Mediterranean corsairs were the Barbary Pirates, cruel and merciless murderers who terrorized European shipping for hundreds of years, robbing, murdering, and capturing men, women and children for the cruel Barbary slave trade. The piracy became so bad that by the late Middle Ages many towns and villages on the Spanish and Italian coasts were abandoned because it was considered too dangerous to live there. This doesn't sound to me like a good basis for a new class of free people.
Hopefully common sense will prevail and the corsair name is just a placeholder for a new class of free mariners.
They could also have an escaped slave, culturally from Umbar and adjecent lands. But in that case, the name still would need to be different of course, and that class would not even want to be associated with the word "corsair".Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfhelm
How would that fit in with the rationale of the game? Really not seeing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TesalionLortus
I don't think the class would even need to be from those lands, there would have been plenty of Gondorian people living along the Southern Anduin and on the West Coast of Gondor who would have been mariners. Pelargir and Dol Amroth were major port cities, and there were many other towns along those coasts which would have been inhabited by sea going people.Quote:
Originally Posted by TesalionLortus
There were at least two Corsairs who were (kind of) good guys. Jajax and his brother, last seen leaving Gondor in a small boat.
If they make it home they could possibly convince more of their people to side with their honorable Free People friends, especially
as their fleet has been defeated and the ships taken by Aragorn.
Assuming it's not a Monster Play class then I really hope they'd go with Mariner over Corsair. Being a Corsair would be very strange for the Free Peoples, but being a Mariner would be much more fitting. In either case I'm curious as to how they would turn that into a class. Dps/debuff options? Maybe dual wield/light shield and medium armor?
Well, looking at precedent, all light armour classes have been casters of some kind, which doesnt sound like what a mariner would do., and we already have 5 heavy armor classes in game, so I think medium agility would be a good bet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaeneth
Theres also no light shields in game with agility as a main stat, so shields are probably out. I'd imagine itll be dual wield, probably with a crossbow/bow for stats.
As far as play style, we already have a surplus of healers, standard dps, and tanks. What we're running low on is group dps support (only red cappy fills this niche right now) and CC/debuffs (we have LM, yBurg, and technically yHunter even though its not an effective class atm). So if theyre going to fill holes in our raid rosters with this class, maybe we can expect one of its lines to be group dps support and the other line to be a CC line? Kinda like a red cappy mixed with a yellow burg. They could even be a medium ranged class, with a healthy mix of melee and ranged skills.
it's deffo not monster play because in the files there's also their new LIs. ain't no monster class that uses LIs, and if the devs ever even try to hint at the idea of monster LIs, you can be sure people will riot, the forums explode, and ssg's building be launched in outer space XD
I only see vague references as to what this thread is actually referring to, but it sounds like someone mined some data off of Bullroarer? Honestly, if it is Corsair I'm disappointed. I hope SSG can win me over but right now Corsair is not lore friendly for a freep class and I can't see how Mariner will work in a game where 95% of your time is spent on land. I also think we have an overabundance of melee classes already. I think there's a bigger gap in ranged classes or caster classes, which is what I would have preferred to see.
Ye forums will explode for 2 days, then all go back to normal.Quote:
Originally Posted by elvenes
Have seen it before
There you are, Mister Rathruin! Please pardon my misspelling of your name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
As it so happens, I am well aware that many elves of the not half variety served as mariners. Yet, I cannot always deny the urge to draw forth a hat pin and lodge it in an unsuspecting behind.
You are forgetting one very important thing-story wise there is only one Beoring/High Elf/Hobbit/Stout-Axe/etc who went through the events. So fitting in one realtively good and kind corsair is not an issue at all.
How? I dunno, but having an outright "Southern culture" styled kinda like a Corsair would only work if they do something like that to tell you they're the good guy harmed by their own people and seeking refuge in the West dedicated to fight evil. And then name them by their unique ethnicity or some pride moniker of a freed slave. Otherwise what? Welcome my dear Corsair, would you gather some apples for me? I can see it in your eyes, you want to fight evil! (and also rob me !)Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Kind of good guys in this case translates to proud plunderers and murderers (that's their profession/culture) but with more honor than most Corsairs (especially those under Black Numenorean influence), willing to strike back against the overlords of Umbar who would bring them to ruin under Sauron or occasionally help the good guys/team up with them, not just for personal gain but because they were sympathetic towards them. They're basically Jack Sparrow of Middle-earth... did Jack ever surrendered to the authority of a foreign king or his lackeys? Or was always to be trusted? No. Jajax nor his brother wouldn't work as a basis for a class walking around Middle-earth and helping everyone out with self-interest (and never harm anyone, or never steal anything).Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaxie
If only we had met one relatively friendly and rational corsair who had had his entire crew wiped out by rival corsairs and, upon hearing that Aragorn may soon be headed towards the very people whom he seeks revenge on, perhaps is in the market for training up a new crew.
Edit: One thing you have to consider is that a class in LOTRO isn't a job, its more like a skillset. Jajax training up people in the way of corsair fighting to get his revenge doesn't mean they will take to the seas as pirates. Its just if you wanted to get revenge on the people whom you feel betrayed you, its likely you'd train up your new crew in the skills needed to battle on the enemy's terms.
Also 100% its not a new MP class. If it was going to be, they would have made that clear. PVMP is a tiny subgame within a game, the amount of backlash from suggesting a new class and then limiting it to a tiny portion of the game would be inconceivable as a developer without making sure everyone was clear on that fact from the start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atonu
A class/race can start at lvl 1 back in Eriador, how does it correspond to Jajax anyway? Besides... Jajax got his revenge already. What he and his brother want now is freedom of Umbar (which to them would still mean piracy, just not under the current rulers and something more like the Court from the third movie of the Pirates of the Caribbean -roughly) Aragorn would want to bring Umbar back under Gondor and finally end piracy and evil practices like that. There is no common interest whatsoever. There can only be a shaky alliance at best, as long as their goals align, but Jajax would still be a patriot of his own country and profession, in his own right, not Gondorian puppet to be installed in their client state. (Unless Aragorn has no problem with a client state that he allows to do piracy as they will as long as they contribute to his new rule where due... but I doubt that ::DDDD)
it will work in the way the devs will make it work. I'm sure they have already thought about it, wether the "muh lore" crowd likes it or not
A couple of not-so-bad Corsairs for storytelling purposes isn't the same as making a whole thing out of that. You can tell that the Corsairs were meant to be really bad sorts by the summary way the story deals with them at Pelargir whereas elsewhere genuinely not-so-bad sorts like the Dunlendings or Haradrim slave-soldiers are treated sympathetically. The parallel to the real Barbary Corsairs is obvious, those guys were a menace for centuries, infamously ruthless, and only finally dealt with by full-on attacks on their home ports (much like Umbar needs to be retaken here to finally put a stop to it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaxie
It would, for example, have made way more sense to have playable Dunlendings (as they were related to the Bree-folk) than it would for there to be playable Haradrim.
The same way Beornings and High Elves correspond? Ultimately its a game, so there doesn't have to a firm lore reason for doing quests, it makes no sense that we are both saving the world and delivering pies at the same time anyway. "Bandits are attacking us but here, deliver this food" Like I said, a class is a skillset and no matter what skillset, you'd need practice to get to a point where you'd be strong enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by TesalionLortus
Beorning - good folk. High Elves - good guys. Decent intros with good enough reasons justifying their presence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atonu
Corsair - pirates, slavers, plunderers. It's not just some "skill set" but a way of life. Are you calling yourself a pirate but you are not sailing around seas plundering ships? Of course not, you do. It's not just some "lore thing" (I don't even care about these hobbit loremasters as much) it's outright common sense. Corsair is morally on a complete opposite side of the moral spectrum. They didn't give us a good "orc" or a "Black Numenorean" skillset to play either. They gave us an escaped resistant to evil dwarven slave out of Mordor.
If there is a Corsair class named as Corsair and framed as actual "good Corsair" who is still a Corsair and there isn't any firm reason for doing quests... OK, then I want my good orc, uruk, or Angmarim sorcerer to play as. Why not? There doesn't need to be any good reason for doing quests apparently :)
Burglars also have a "dubious" lifestyle but they can be good obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by TesalionLortus
Corsairs are pirates that work for a state instead of working for themselves. In history this happened too and they can be good from a certain point of view, if you're a corsair working for Gondor and raiding the Sauron aligned forces that means you're good, despite doing it in a pirate way - burglars can do the same. And the line between a navy of a country and its corsair forces only depends on perspective. States prefer to use a "navy" and be honourable but when the situation arises most had no problem using corsairs if it was better for them (like in uneven forces).
It's more than just 'dubious', because the Corsairs were slave-takers. End of. They're not dashing privateers from the Age of Sail, they're working for (in this case) a thoroughly corrupted regime and that puts them way over on the wrong side of the tracks as far as LOTR's moral divide goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by JFDCamara
Too much negative associated with Corsair (It's a Pirate!).
Mariner fits in with Tolkien but then people will always be asking where you have parked the Ship and why you are so far from the sea.
Venturer would be a good name but it's only mentioned in Unfinished Tales.
Swashbuckler sounds dashing and daring without seeming malicious or cruel.
If it is a seafaring class it will probably only really fit the races of Men and Elves anyway. Dwarves and Hobbits coming up short yet again.
Cheers :)
Being a swashbuckler has nothing in particular to do with going to sea, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fealhach
Venturer would do I think because it's a common word (not an outright reference to Numenor like 'Guild of Venturers' might be) and it goes with being a merchant adventurer and that for example is what Sinbad was in the stories about him. And we're going somewhere with that same sort of flavour, and supernatural goings-on. Seems like a fair fit, none of the unfortunate baggage that 'Corsair' has.
And yeah, seafaring would imply Men and Elves.
But as I said before, classes aren't jobs, they are skillsets. Unless you're saying its physically impossible that a single corsair would decide "Actually, helping people is better than piracy and maybe ill take adoration and fame over the uncertainness of piracy"? You have to remember that all the quests and story happen in a bubble, its just you. The fact there are other people all playing the same class and doing the same thing is a product of the game, not the lore. Because if you want t apply your logic to the game as a whole, then it makes no sense for anyone to be anything other than human guardians, captains, champions and hunters.Quote:
Originally Posted by TesalionLortus
Edit: Beorning are at best neutral. Like hobbits and, to a lesser extent, dwarves they care little for what happens outside of their borders and their hatred of goblins and warg (which is the motivation for them engaging with the free people at all) is a product of crimes against them, completely disconnected from the current state of affairs. They choose to help because it suites their own purposes and then the player gets caught up in the grand adventure, like every other race.
Not all of them. Or have you never quested through Gondor?Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Then they would cease to be "corsairs". They can't run around doing "good stealing", "good plundering", and "good miscellaneous pirate things". Their skillset would change with their decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atonu
I don't actually care what they are called, to be perfectly honest. But corsair is basically a synonym for pirate, and I don't think those "skillsets" are something positive. I think it would be better to call them something more like "mariner", which has a better connotation, but it's their business, not mine. They've screwed with the lore so much, that honestly I don't know why it even surprises people at this point. (Yes, I'm still kinda weird about rune keepers...even though I have an alt rune keeper, myself. : P)
I mean at least runekeepers make a little more sense than minstrels XD So all burglars are evil? I do think maybe Duelist would be a better name for them, not so much because I don't think its plausible for there to be one good corsair but rather because I think its a bad idea to have a class with the same name as a faction, even if they came up with some amazing lore reason that a corsair decides to switch sides, its still likely to cause confusion. As you said, if a corsair switched sides, they'd still have the same skills, same fighting styles ect but its unlikely they'd still be called corsairs, if for no other reason than they'd be fighting against them. Everyone they met they'd have to be like "I'm a corsair, but not like those corsairs"Quote:
Originally Posted by paintpixie
I mean, one reasonable explanation is that you weren't a willing corsair in the first place. Maybe in order to fuel the fleet they started just forcing slaves onto the ships to work and it was either that or death, so at the first opportunity you jump ship. Or maybe your ship is sunk and you're nursed back to health. I don't know, in terms of an adventure hook there are plenty of options.
By that same token a single necromancer might decide "Actually, helping people is better than all this death, fear, darkness and decay and other such foully unnatural magicks I've been employing in the service of my lord Sauron, maybe I'll take adoration and fame over the uncertainty of sorcery". That wouldn't work because they'd have already done awful things and as for Corsairs they're not just pirates, but raiders who take slaves. As a result they wouldn't fit the game's rationale (e.g. they'd absolutely not be the sort of person that major characters like Aragorn, Gandalf or Galadriel would ever trust) at all, regardless of whether you try to pretend there's only one of them. That argument of yours is so woolly that you could even apply it to Orcs :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Atonu
Yea, because its not like the major characters ever saw something in someone that nobody else did.. right? Also do you think all corsairs wear name badges and a sign saying "Hide your children, i'm a corsair"? An orc is obviously an orc, a necromancer will be outed as soon as they start spewing bodies all over the place. Ultimately lotro has already set the groundwork for having corsairs that arent "100% evil no excuses." Also presumably the corsair would start at level 1, so an inexperienced corsair? You're going on the assumption we'll be playng a hardened veteran of a dozen raids. Maybe we're just a new corsair on their first raid that gets cold feet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Then why are burglars good? They steal (a bad thing) and kill from the shadows (a bad thing).Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
The definition of corsair has nothind to do with slave-taking, just because some did doesn't mean they all did. Corsair is plundering other ships and/or coasts while being secretly associated with a state. A bunch of uncharacterised men from Gondor in a ship plundering orc bases are corsairs - is this activity "bad"?
They are men which means they have good in them, what about a corsair that repented and is now using his/her skills for good? They are basically burglars with ships.
Err... how did Jajax become a Corsair captain to begin with if not through having been in service to the bad guys and having done awful things simply through being a Corsair? Just because he turns on them because he thinks they've gone too far doesn't make him a saint.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaxie
Actually if you know some history it does. Not only because of what happened to the crews of ships that were captured by the Barbary Corsairs (sold into slavery) but also because the Corsairs made a habit of raiding coastal settlements here, there and everywhere (even as far away as Iceland at one point!) to capture yet more people to sell into slavery. The 'plunder' was people in particular because people were worth money to them. And it was really, really bad for a long time, in some places whole settlements had to be abandoned because it was too dangerous to live there.Quote:
Originally Posted by JFDCamara
I'm not sure Umbar quite made it to Iceland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Ah the moral ambiguity of good vs evil. One mans freedom fighter and all that...
Tolkien never had his heroes poisoning baby wargs in Wildermore, would have made for bad press and I never felt entirely comfortable with it, fair amount of poisoning and general murderous activity going on.
My orc player has certainly displayed a lot ore honour and chivalry than many of the freeps it came across over the years.
As Rad will know i've opposed pretty much all the lore based blurring over the years, despite the fact it is as inevitable as the sea rolling in...
Just another classic lore break, I added my sig like 10 years ago, it still stands now.
That irritating goblin in mordor blurred the line of good/evil/self interest: blurry as it may be, am sure there will be plenty of corsairs in game to follow on from all the other lore breaks that have come before.
A hobbit and high elf corsair woud be even funnier, as long as its taking that pet goose onto the battlefield ofc.
What kind of acrobatics must be done to get "saint" from "(kind of) good guys"??Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Of course he started out doing what he was raised to do, being loyal to the leaders of his people.
Leaders who believed they had a legitimate claim to Gondor's throne. Then he started seeing them
for what they were. At which point, with the help of whatever character you're questing on, he broke
away from them. Keep in mind, all the many player characters in the game are filling one single
slot in the plot. Every single character of every single player has the same opportunity to become
the Thane of Hytbold, a position that can be filled by only ONE person. The devs only have to
create the chance for ONE Corsair to convert.
Haha. Got me there. XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Atonu
I guess my hand-wavy answer would be burglars are more petty theft/breaking in (and are directly from lore, and from a positive perspective with Bilbo) and corsairs are more evil, at least in connotation.
I could totally see that as a reasonable explanation for them. At least as reasonable as other classes. They liked to base the classes off of popular characters from the books. (Do they still do that with new classes?) So my question is, who are they basing the new class off of? That might give a good idea of what flavor they're going for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atonu
They can just add intro where Corsar forced to join fleet attacking Gondor, but go AWOL during attack and decide to help good side. Problem solved
For Corsairs it will have to be pretty obscure, probably one of the sons of Castamir, but there's very little to go on.Quote:
Originally Posted by paintpixie
On the other hand, If the class is a Mariner it will be based on Eàrendil. It will have a white bird pet called Elwing, a flying ship mount and a baby Dragon cosmetic pet called Ancalagon the Black.
Cheers :)
Haha. I was just joking with my husband this morning about summoning my new boat mount for cruising around Evendim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fealhach
In all honesty, I do hope the new class is Mariner. I think it would be really cool.
Point is, oh unhistorically inclined one, that that's what the real Corsairs were like and a corsair wasn't just any old pirate, it was a specific sort with a well-deserved reputation. And that's a reference that goes along with how the Haradrim also field scimitar-wielding light cavalry and war-elephants in battle. Not at all hard to see what Tolkien was getting at there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atonu
I was being sarcastic. Point is, it doesn't matter if he decides he doesn't like working for the actually evil dudes any more, anyone who's a Corsair (and especially a captain!) would already be complicit in doing the sort of things Corsairs did and those were totally amoral, irrespective of whether their leaders were evil. So credit to any of them who turn against the evil dudes, but the Corsairs are still bad guys. They've just got standards of a sort, even if it's only not wanting to see Umbar being trashed. That doesn't make them good guys, not even sort of. So that makes them potentially interesting characters for storytelling purposes but doesn't do anything to make them good candidates to be player-characters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaxie
I, personally, disagree, and I, personally, think that is a very narrow-minded viewpoint. No one is irredeemable. Somewhere, in all the ranks of the Corsairs, the devs could find that ONE redeemable person to be a player character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
But plenty of free people betray the free people. There are so many examples of people on the "good" side betraying it for power or greed and yet you seem completely incapable of seeing that the enemy could do the same. This argument is pointless, I've already given 5-6 reasonable explanations of how someone aligned with the corsairs originally, could come to see things in a different light. Since you like history so much instead of lore, you'd claim that in the history of the world, there has been been one person who maybe did subscribe to beliefs of their nation that changed sides when they saw reality? Would the free people be quick to trust them? of course not, but they aren't quick to trust anyone.. in case you hadn't noticed much of the world is pretty distrustful of outsiders in general but as Tolkien was a huge fan of, deeds speak louder than words. Ultimately there are many good reasons a corsair may start doing good deeds, even if its simply repayment for a kindness or mercy shown to them and then get swept up in the adventure. As someone pointed out above, every class/race has a pretty flimsy reason to be involved, that is just the nature of it being a game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Having an interesting and different skillset and playstyle is what makes them good player characters. Characters don't have a backstory unless you make them one, so ultimately what they have done and why they changed would be down for players to decide. (Well, High Elves and Stout-Axe would be the exception but even then you see a very narrow field of something they did a period before you start, not an entire history).
Edit: We haven't even factored in that if its not a class/race combo, then its likely the player corsairs may never have been a corsair in the way we understand it at all, maybe some random retired corsair taught them the fighting style and tools to survive in exchange for pie and ale. As I said before there are many viable hooks that make perfect sense, not just the one that you envision every corsair ever born must subscribe to.
And I, personally, think that's facile as it's far too simplistic. Redemption should take a lot more than "oh all right then" (which is all you're offering here, no better than an excuse) and certainly in Tolkien generally some sins are so grievous that they can only be redeemed in death (as with Boromir's heroic last stand, for example, which paid for what he'd done earlier). Again, the Corsairs were bad people and Tolkien treats them as such - not just misled or dragged into it against their will (so not like that nameless Haradrim soldier who Sam sees lying dead, symbolising all the other countless victims of Sauron's malice, cruelty and warmongering) but actually bad which of course they are, given what they do for a living. They traffic in human suffering for profit. In the context of a culture that'd been influenced by Sauron for a very long time indeed it should be no surprise that that'd have been normalised, but you're busily trying to whitewash that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaxie
I'd like to see some source for those remarks. (That come on a bit hostile, what I mean is that I had only been led to believe that the corsairs and Umbar as a whole were only really spoken about in passing by Tolkien himself and no great detail was ever revealed)Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Edit: Some googling and doing a wordsearch in the books doesn't really bring up any sort of black and whiteness that you're suggesting here but if you have a super secret source of corsair facts, I'd be happy to read it. The problem is that you've backed yourself into a corner where you're stuck trying to defend your argument that every single corsair, from the baby just born to the oldest amongst them is 100% evil and committed to the corsair way and this simply isn't true for any other faction or people in LOTR save for maybe the orcs and goblins, who were created/bred that way. Why would it be true for corsairs? It sounds like you just want something other than corsair.
I like the name Corsair and if indeed pirate themed class is coming that should be fun, however while I like the name i agree with some others that it better if was called a "Mariner" class.
I have noting against Corsair, the more different classes and races -the better.
Quote:
That's right," said Gandalf. "Let's have no more argument. I have chosen Mr. Baggins and that ought to be enough for all of you. If I say he is a Burglar, a Burglar he is, or will be when the time comes. There is a lot more in him than you guess, and a deal more than he has any idea of himself.
.....Quote:
His small hand would not close about it for it was a large and heavy gem; but he lifted it, shut his eyes, and put it in his deepest pocket. "Now I am a burglar indeed!" thought he. "But I suppose I must tell the dwarves about it-some time. They did say I could pick and choose my own share; and I think I would choose this, if they took all the rest!
I would say the Burglar class in Middle Earth is comprised of goodly people with rather excellent skill at getting about unheard and unseen. In time of urgent need and opportunity, they are wont to acquire things in the possession of evil persons or beasts in a manner that leaves the burglar undetected. Though not soldiers by trade, if assailed, they will most certainly defend themselves using guile and, when absolutely necessary, violence.
.....
Burglary entails entering a structure to commit a crime, usually theft, but does not intrinsically require an act of violence. Robbery entails using violence, or the threat of violence, against a person during an act of theft but need not occur within a structure.
.....
If the game writers use that term Corsair for the upcoming class, they will probably justify it based on the French Corsair, not the Barbary Corsair. The rational probably goes something like this: Corsairs were French privateers. Privateers are legitimate combatants serving under a crown. Therefore, corsairs are legitimate combatants serving under a crown.
Also: Corsairs are French privateers. Privateers are not inherently good or evil. Therefore, Corsairs are not inherently good or evil.
I am rather unhappy with these syllogisms because they hinge on a neutral definition of privateer. Yet, I started this post by turning burglar into a goodly vocation!
Words are like snakes that writhe in your hands. That is an observation, not an excuse.
Main source of whole idea about evil Umbar and evil corsars comes from black numenorians controling this region. But even Tolkien never say what all people here was evil. Numenorian people of Umbar fight with Mordor and have great battles against evil. Aragorn made peace with Harad after all, so he can consider what both countries can coexist without wars.
Sauron's own followers and cultures influenced by him routinely enslaved people. Not sure why that should come as news to you, And in the real-life past, pirates from cultures which featured slavery would commonly sell people they captured as slaves and that's without needing a demonic super-villain to influence them into doing stuff like that. It's just the profit motive, as slaves have value.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atonu
Don't strawman what I said, I didn't say "100% evil" - I said they were bad people. Because they do bad things. And Tolkien treats them as bad people, so it's not for you to pretend otherwise. And there's this:
'To every ship they came that was drawn up, and then they passed over the
water to those that were anchored; and all the mariners were filled with a
madness of terror and leaped overboard, save the slaves chained to the oars.'
- ROTK, 'The Last Debate'
So yeah, the Corsair ships were rowed by galley-slaves (something that was infamously awful in real life and this alludes to that). The deal is here, it's strongly hinted that the Haradrim in general *aren't* all bad (Tolkien made a point of doing that) but the Corsairs aren't your average Haradrim, they're villainous - cruel and ruthless pirates. And let's face it, pirates generally have a reputation for being ruthless cutthroats, so where on earth did you get the idea that any pirate would be the sort of person that Tolkien's Elves might find welcome company?
Total, utter context failure. The Barbary Corsairs were Muslim pirates operating out of ports in North Africa and Harad is basically Middle-earth's Africa: hence the war-elephants, the fierce-looking dudes with scimitars, and the pirates operating from Umbar. The analogy could hardly be more obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by SophieTheEnchantress
There are no other Corsairs in this setting. Unless you mean some conveniently invented nonsense just to give you an excuse...
Err... no, the idea comes from reading LOTR itself and sure, Aragorn could make peace with the Haradrim in general but one thing that couldn't coexist is the pirates! I'm getting real tired of people equivocating between the Haradrim in general and the pirates in particular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmagor
Plus Aragorn did have to go into the South to fight *somebody*, later...
So it's been another day and this thread has become a giant "missing the point" apparently. No one has a problem with a new raced based on Southern fighting style. No one is saying there can't be a good Southern person. No one is saying there can't be a "fresh" "novice" Corsair who only ended up on a ship by accident but they want no part of it. Literally no one said that. We only ever said, in that case, they're no longer a Corsair or never has been and they wouldn't even describe themselves as a Corsair. This name is associated with evil - evil of different degrees, but yeah, a dubious moral compass (which Jajax and his brother aren't except from). It's literally the term for a pirate. That's it. End of it.
And if they haven't cut ties with their culture and still wanna be Corsairs because they're proud of their lifestyle/heritage (that would be Jajax and his brother...) then that means they're still intending to commit some crimes, of different severity and maybe less severe than under Sauron but still crimes because being a Corsair means commiting some crimes, hence not reformed good guys. If they've reforemed, then that means they cut ties with the Corsair culture and left the pirate life behind them. They wouldn't be proud of it and they wouldn't introduce themselves as Corsairs because that's the equivalent of a reformed, ashamed murderer introducing themselves as a Murderer and being accepted as such by random people they meet no less. You people serious? You can't have both at once, what's so hard to understand here?
Loremaster, Hunter, Stout-axe, Guardian, Rune-keeper, Champion, Captain, Warden, Minstrel, Beorning... Does any of it sound wrong to you, when put in the mouth of NPCs when they address you? Does any of it should evoke doubt and fear? No. Burglar is the only one that's morally shady rather than truly neutral but has a lore excuse, a bit far-fetched, but it's still a good excuse, and this entire burglar on hire thing from the Hobbit paints them as an adventurer for hire more than a burglar who is supposed to burgle people's homes, so OK. If Gandalf and the dwarves can speak so casually about a "burglar" then that means people of Eriador would too and it's a known, somewhat respected service that doesn't have too many bad connotations. Brawler is a weird one too, but it can easily refer to a common term for an adventurous, loud sort, rather than someone who is bad news. (I mean, never played a Brawler, but I guess something like this may be implied somewhere?)
CORSAIR? That would be the first one, if a class was actually called that. A giant laughable unbelievable nonsense coming from the mouth of every single NPC who would address me as such but instead they should barricade their doors at first mention of that word. If that can happen, then a playable orc, sorcerer or even Cargul can happen too, because why not? If a new class is being called a Corsair, then I want to play my orc, uruk, sorcerer and more. Because there is literally no reason why I shouldn't. Would be the same stupid thing between my PC and NPCs, just like with a race named Corsair. (Personally, no matter what's currently in their files, I believe SSG will call this class something else, no matter what's it's based on. Well, at least I don't expect they would just gone bonkers like that, though with some recent decisions who can tell since there is some amount of unexpected confusion and inconsistency lately with some of their choices... In any case, it's amusingly shocking to go through this thread and so many people jump straight into the fray to defend a Corsair name, like it's no big deal and something that was always there in the game... when it clearly wasn't)
We've factored it all in and it still doesn't change the fact a word Corsair is bad news, is a negative term, and no NPC should take it lightly, as if they were just unique adventurers you might ask for help. Literally no sane person would say any of that to a CORSAIR they just met. But if it's so unthinkable to you and you still want this class to be called a Corsair (why not something different?) then I want my sorcerer or Cargul class, pronto, it would be fun, and if nothing matters anymore, then why not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atonu
If people are so keen on a pirate class because pirates are supposedly cool then can we have ninjas, cowboys and spacemen as well? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by TesalionLortus
Tolkien didn't yeah, I think he just said Black Numenoreans, as in after Castamir, became the Corsairs, and that alone is clearly just a giant simplification for the sake of simplicity, since any of such people would then mix up with locals rather than just remain of "Numenorean/Gondorian" stock, and Tolkien's usage of Black Numenoreans would extend to all corrupted peoples who shared some blood with either actual Black Numenoreans (going back to Numenor) or later corrupted Gondorians. And while he clearly based his Corsairs of the later period on the likes of cruel Berbers - someone correct me if I'm wrong - but he didn't exactly specify where the entire idea of a piracy came from. Sure, Gondorians were mariners but it's a huge jump from military rebel Castamir-aligned forces butthurt about their loss to outright pirates known as the Corsairs, scourge of the seas. I don't think Tolkien really solved that "transition" he merely said it happened. Now, the devs, are clearly interested to solve that transition and what they're telling you - if you pay attention to the game - is that the cruel Corsair/pirate culture of some prominence is much older than Castamir and Gondor itself. One of the Nine was a Corsair, so powerful and cruel and influential (probably controlled a large part of the sea) that Sauron bestowed him with his ring. Henceforth - it wasn't just that Castamir rebels were ruled by an evil "Black Numenorean" commander and started to do evil, it's an entire generational cultural thing, once they mixed up with local culture of already existing Corsairs. It's a massive generational culture of robbery, plunder and murder, with the entire Castamir angle only thrown into that entire bag of bad things. A Black Numenorean and a Sauron thrall in charge only make it worse, effectively turning them into well organized evil empire, but it's been pretty BAD and EVIL already. It's like a THING. They're the Corsairs. Feared by Westerners and Haradrim alike. Just a few bad Black Numenoreans controlling the region, they're just mind controlling everyone, not part of an entire culture... yeah, sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmagor
I still have hope in the devs writing good, complex stories (not just some fanservice stories) and it's threads like this that make me wish the devs had the PC (and our not-named-a-Corsair Corsair-based class) run into Jajax after he just raided and robbed one of the non-Gondorian villages because he and his new crew of rebels trying to strike back against the Heirs needed... supplies :) Now that I think of it, please devs do that. There is opportunity for some challenging, different, interesting, conflicting stories here and we haven't really seen any of these for a while. I mean, in War of the Ring... things are pretty simple. Not even a moment to stop and confront such situations
Yes, anyone with even a rudimentary interest in history would know just how horrible 'life' as a Barbary galley-slave must have been, and Tolkien's knowledge of history was far from rudimentary. These poor souls were chained to the oars and that was often where they remained, twenty-four hours a day, for the rest of their miserable lives. They were chained in rows and that was where they carried out all of their bodily functions, and they were whipped mercilessly if they were perceived to be not working hard enough. In situation like that where you'd expect that most of them would have welcomed death, many often survived for years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Galleys in Roman times and the European galleys of the Middle Ages mostly used free men as rowers, sometimes resorting to the use of convicted criminals as slaves when manpower was short. Only the Barbary Corsairs used slaves exclusively.
You can be sure that when Tolkien wrote about his Corsairs, such horrific cruelty was imagined as being part of their makeup.
I mean, this is already part of the game no less. People just need to replay that fake "Parley" with Balakhor... and how he brags about his many slaves who toil on his ship... and this is not something that Jajax's brother would be a stranger to, given his position in the ranks (with Jajax, no idea, it depends on whether they all have their own slaves or maybe some have their own autonomy and can opt out)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfhelm
I don't buy into this "my character is the only Beorning or adventurous hobbit in the game", and it's definitely not the way most people view it either. Fact is you don't really need to, the Beornings were a people in the game, and while they weren't exactly numerous, there were probably a fair few of them. Adventurous hobbits were said to be rare by Tolkien, fair enough, but we know from the books that they certainly existed. We know five adventurous hobbits by name, and before you say they were reluctant adventurers, three of them weren't, they actually insisted on going, even when the danger involved was made abundantly clear to them in Rivendell. Bilbo and Frodo were both reluctant at first, until their Tookish side took over, and guess what, Tooks aren't exactly rare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaxie
This "my character is one of a kind" mentality is just an excuse to justify all kinds of implausible storylines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Jimlaad the pirate is definitely a name to block off for this next excellent instalment of the lore.
There's an istari-man waiting in the sky, he like to come and see you but he thinks he'd blow our minds....Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of Lore-ons
I think you guys are making way too big a deal over the name "Corsair". I know this is a forum for nerds, but even for us, making a big deal over this is reaching.
I have played many characters in the years I've been in LoTRO's Middle Earth. Every one of them goes through the exact same experience. Because the story is writtenQuote:
Originally Posted by Wolfhelm
as one person going through that experience. Do you really think thousands of people are THE Thane of Hytbold? Did that guy in Lhaunch really need his weapon fixed thousands
of times? Did that helpless bunch of lost fellows in Forochell need to be rescued over and over by thousands of people? No. The storyline follows one person. Each player
creates a character to fill that ONE roll. Yes, we create more than one character. Some of us create backstories to connect our "families" of characters and immerse ourselves
in their realities, like my own Gemgarden family of adventurous Hobbit siblings, but the storyline each follows when they go questing is a singular one.
You mean like half hobbit pirate beorning corsairs who waylay travelers and ransom them for honey berry pies? I really do not think that has anything to do with this discussion, Radhruin. Please try to remain on topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
To my knowledge, all current class names hinge on a word Tolkien used in his stories, with the word broadly interpreted. Now that we know legendary items exist for Corsairs, the powers that be appear set to interpret the word Corsair very broadly, regardless of your opinion or mine.
Another thought occurs to me. Pirates are heavily used in Dungeons & Dragons Online, almost always for comedic affect. The writers on that side of the cubicle really enjoy the Pirates of the Caribbean version of pirates. It appears that outlook extends to this game. We may get kobolds next. Dunno.
To be clear, if we get a vote in the matter, I vote against using Corsair to name a Free Peoples class. Corsairs were horrible people, historically and in Middle Earth. These people made their fortunes by waylaying merchant ships, killing anyone who resisted, and stealing the cargo. Surviving passengers were almost always ransomed, slain, or sold into slavery. The fate of female passengers was particularly horrific. That was true from ancient times until modern times. To this very day, pirates sally forth from the coast of Africa. Tolkien chose that word to evoke a particular sense of evil men within the minds of readers. The fact a historical king or chieftain condoned the attacks in order to take a cut does not make such treatment of non-combatants right.
What about the raid I was in the other day which had 3 hobbits, 2 beornings, 2 high elves and 2 stout-axes? Seems a strange mix of characters that are each only meant to be one offs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaxie
What you're describing is obviously roleplay, which is fine but it's not my cup of tea and nor do most people engage in that type of gameplay. Yes the quests are written that way, and many of the situations would seem ridiculous if you'd imagined that everyone had been through the same experience, but most people just take it at face value and don't try to overthink it. For most people, if they see half a dozen hobbits wondering around Minas Tirith they don't really think anything of it, seeing just one orc in the same location though would look totally out of place. In Tolkien's world a corsair is not much better than an orc, and would be killed on sight in Gondor.
Burglar comes from The Hobbit, Bilbo being labeled as "the burglar" who is going to steal the Arkenstone from a dragon for Thorin and company. Because the dragon is "bad", then the burglar is "good" in our black and white, good versus evil mentality. My own burglar steals pies in the Shire. There's a whole Shire deed devoted to pie-stealing. Good? Evil? Pul-lease. It's just plain fun to play one.
Corsairs live in Umbar, where the next region expansion is going to be based. It would be silly to make a new Corsair class to play in a new Corsair region. What would be the distinction between PC and NPC? That would be like making an orc class for the Mordor expansion, but they did not do that. They made stout-axe dwarves as a new class instead.
Sailors might be needed to reach the new Umbar region, but that would only make sense if they expand upon ships and sailing. Still, there's all of Cirdan's shipbuilding elves plus the seafaring Numenorean humans that can act as the legitimate lore base for it, and maybe throw in river hobbits just to satisfy the people who keep begging for them. Whatever a new seafarer class would be called, it wouldn't be called Corsair. That wouldn't just break the lore, that would be "good vs. evil" cross-eyed.
This argument fails, as it always has, because while you can pretend that your character is the only person having that specific set of adventures there are plainly other adventurers around, some similar to you. So if a 'Corsair' were to be a thing then your character would not be the only one of those. The game includes grouping, it's not built as a purely single-player experience and that's that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaxie
No, you simply cannot do that. As I said before, if we apply that logic to the rest of the game, the whole thing falls apart. It makes no sense at all that there are so many hobbits, dwarves, elves and men all running around ME saving the day. Remember in the battle for Helm's Deep when Aragorn said "We might lose, but don't worry because I have 6 fresh hobbits coming to save the day." Either you can separate lore from gameplay or you cannot, you cant pick and choose as it suits your purpose. If we start picking apart obvious gameplay systems and try to fit them into lore then like I said, the whole thing becomes a mess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Not at all. The term corsair in the books is defined to be an obvious and specific connotation of an evil man (sailing slavers) there is no non-evil context used. If this had been Mariner or Privateer you might find less concern because they would have much less of a clearly evil connotation in the story. But IF this is indeed the naming of the new class there is no grey area (Corsair = Sailing Slaver).Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidmeetHal
If the new class is to be Corsair, but people think that those who have concerns over the name are making a fuss over nothing, how about we just rename it to Slave-master instead?
Got it yet?
Exactly!
Cheers :)
Yep, I've already mentioned when my Uruk, Orc and Angmarim Sorcerer classes which would be equally silly when interacting with Elrond and the like but apparently the underlying difference between that and a class named a Guardian or Beorning is too difficult to grasp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fealhach
Do all corsairs carry around a name badge identifying themselves and a list of their past crimes?Quote:
Originally Posted by TesalionLortus
If Elrond starts his sentence with "My dear [class] = Corsair" then he surely is aware they're a Corsair no? And that goes for every NPC. Which makes all these quests and stories broken at a fundamental level, so your player character might as well be an orc. Not to mention any redeemed, regretful Corsair would no longer be a Corsair and would no longer identify as a Corsair. End of story, basic common sense. (And if they still do identify as Corsairs and value some of their ways... that means they wouldn't run around Eriador and Gondor helping every single person out of a goodness of their pure heart)Quote:
Originally Posted by Atonu
Then why, pray tell, was Jajax not "killed on sight" in Gondor? Not only was he sitting in the tavern openly enjoying a drink in Ethring (can't remember the spelling), but also openlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Wolfhelm
wandering around Dol Amroth before that. Yes, people were suspicious of him, but he was not killed on sight.
Yes, I agree what having Corsair will be a bit silly comparing with other classes, because corsairs don't have any impactfull role in Tolkien works. And even more important, because we can't have corsairs without using ships and sea, and Lotro don't have much of it. And we already known what SSG confirm what they don't make any new system like warsteeds related to ships. That situation turns corsar into yet another melee dps without much background or reason to be here. I hope SSG understand that and have huge rework in already existing world to support sea/ships/corsairs. Don't have much faith in that, because we seen what they just recently add enough trainers/instance sets/loot drops for Bralwer, such work must be done with Gundabad release, not 1.5 year later.
But, after all we have Guardian of Food and Captain of Man in 2008, and now even High Elf and Dwarf can be Captain.
Ethring was a pretty small town, far from coast, so maybe he blended in better, but presumably tried to hide his identity too... but later he clearly saw need to go to more extreme measures...Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaxie
"You cannot help but laugh at Jajax's brazen appearance in the city of his enemies.'Why do you laugh? I left much of my armor behind, and wrapped myself in this flimsy lady's cloak, like the men here do. Is the disguise insufficient?"
If those were Dol Amroth guards who figured him out he surely would have been killed or imprisoned on sight.
Because Dol Amroth was attacked by Jajax friends and Pelargir was siedged. But after War of the Rings ends it will be in Aragorn's interests to bring Umbar back to Gondor side one way or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by TesalionLortus
Given that Tolkien was plainly likening his Corsairs to the cruel and ruthless slave-taking variety and the real and grim history of that it's absolutely on topic. You can play devil's advocate all you like, but if the devs go with Corsair it'll be a truly terrible choice because of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by SophieTheEnchantress
Of the existing classes, Burglar has a dubious image but that's tempered with the idea in The Hobbit that first-class, professional Burglars will steal your stuff through craft and guile rather than just knifing you, so there's a bit of a 'gentleman thief' thing going on there. By contrast there's absolutely nothing like that to draw on from LOTR when it comes to Corsairs; they're not romanticised in the least.
There I agree with you as I said a few pages back. Having a former corsair as a pc is perfectly fine and easy to fit in, but if they gave up their corsairing ways, they wouldn't be a corsair anymore. Duelist, swashbuckler even something more generic like rogue or drifter would fit a lot better with the role they would then hold. The skills ect would all be the same, but they wouldnt tell people they were a corsair, or as i said previously every conversation would be "I'm a corsair, but not that kind of corsair", they'd just come up with a different way to describe themselves, sort of like expert treasure hunter for burglar.Quote:
Originally Posted by TesalionLortus
But ultimately for the purpose of a game, corsair works fine. Its not like in lore people are referred to by their class, its just a way of making npcs seem to relate to the player, i always thought it was a bit odd that people would look at you and be like "I know you're a burglar!"
I'll give you the danger in Dol Amroth, but please note: It was before Ethring, not later.Quote:
Originally Posted by TesalionLortus
The ones that went to attack Gondor, we don't know what is going on in Umbar itself other than it has a tyrannical government. So you think the people of Umbar offer up no resistance and are just like "It's the pirates life for us!"? As I've said before you seem to make wide assumptions based on very limited text. Ultimately most of what happens in the Umbar expansion will be outside the scope of the known lore either way, given that all we know is some of the history. I asked for sources before and you showed me one line which said they had some slaves on the ships that attacked and have just been like "Welp, all corsairs are slaving owning monsters!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
This also fails because you're equivocating between accepting that there are at least *some* more adventurers than just your guy (which you logically *have* to do in a game which can involve grouping up with others in the course of your character's adventures) and acknowledging that there are thousands of other characters. You can do one without having to do the other. I already said that you can pretend your character is 'the' guy, the Hero of Eriador etc,, the one who's having all the adventures in the game but equally given that there's grouping there must be others who are notionally having their own adventures which may occasionally intersect with yours. And given that they can be much like your character, you cannot insist that your guy is the one and only example of 'whatever'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atonu
You want to agree with me and then also disagree with me, to approve the logic but then also ignore that and act like it's perfectly logical - sorry, can't do both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atonu
Yes, so a class can't be called a Corsair, because unlike Burglars it has seriously bad connotations within the game world and its lore. (Burglars don't need to explain themselves all the time because the "expert treasure hunter" is part of the definition of a Burglar within this world).Quote:
Originally Posted by Atonu
If you support "Corsair" name for a class because "not that kind of Corsair!" then I want the same with the Angmarim sorcerer or uruk because "not that kind of Angmarim!" and "not that kind of Uruk!" and Elrond and literally anyone else would be fine with it (No they wouldn't but if we don't care at all and ignore that fact, well then... come on, Orc, Angmarim, Uruk, Goblin Sapper, not even a good troll and woodtroll would be problems here... so in that case, I want to see them as available Free Peoples classes :D )
No, it doesn't, because NPCs still refer to you by your class name on many occasions - which is not stupid and like they're all fortune tellers, because the PC has mouth too - that they realistically use no doubt to introduce themselves - plus there might be already some rumors spread about them etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atonu
A new class would imply unique abilities and/or weapons. What would a seafaring class, regardless of its name, bring to the game that would be different from:
Beorning
Brawler
Burglar
Captain
Champion
Guardian
Hunter
Lore-master
Minstrel
Rune-keeper
Regarding "good" versus "evil", uh, come on, people. We're killing creatures with all of these classes, murder being a capital crime. Burglary is pretty lame by comparison.
So you think many High Elves were stabbed in the second age? Or that Grimbeorn had like thousands of children? There are other adventurers, sure, but they don't (in game lore) do the same adventures you do, they do other things. Sometimes you group up to do things that require more than just you but ultimately when it comes to quests and stories you are the only one doing them, and other people are just there helping you. You get the credit, you get the reward. This is how every story in every MMO has ever worked. (Well, ok, maybe there are some more freeform MMOs that don't work that way :P)Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
No, you just need to read what I said more carefully. Way to miss the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atonu
- there must be at least *some* more adventurers than your guy, whose paths you may occasionally cross (= grouping). NOT that everyone has the exact same set of adventures.
- some of those may also be like your guy (same class or race/class combo)
- therefore when speaking generally you can't insist there's only one example of 'x' who's an adventurer.
QED
I would refer you back to that post I made above about some deeply-rooted - no doubt - cultural context behind the region and then ask yourself this: if you're some poor good-hearted lad from a local fishing village and resisting Corsair's life (with no care towards their history and culture) then... would you call yourself a Corsair and act like you're a Corsair, one of them? Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by Atonu
Or, if you were forced into this life due to famine etc, but had regrets and saw a chance to escape, then would you think of yourself as a romantic Corsair who introduces themselves as a Corsair? Really? Or would you have nighmares of your past misdeeds at the mere mention of a Corsair, a name you left behind?
Finally, if you're still effectively still a Corsair which implies a ship, see warfare and raids, have no regrets, call yourself a Corsair, but wanna strike back against Umbar's government that you see as particularly nasty and free your own people/local population from the shackles of Sauron... what does that make you? A local rebel and not the worst of your kind, sure, but certainly not a goody-shoes hero and adventurer interested to help out the entire Middle-earth and hobbitses out of the distant Shire...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaxie
Yeah, my mind was working backwards with this one, sorry. But that's even better then, meaning the PC laughed at them so they stopped trying too hard but they've already gotten rid of their distinct Corsair armor set by the time of Ethring, so this actually proves my original point much better.
Bad argument, because not only does the game openly acknowledge what class you are in dialogue (it really shouldn't, that's bad writing, but it does) but the baggage that names come with matters. Saying Corsair would be okay is like saying Assassin or Sorcerer would be okay even though those are negative things, implying the character is sinister or just plain bad, possibly even evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atonu
Err... yeah, just like in various historical port cities in North Africa, in Umbar the slave trade would just be business, part of the culture. Some people in Umbar might well have hated it but the regime would be all for it (it'd be highly profitable!) and for the Corsairs themselves it'd be how they earned a living, and lots of other people would profit from it indirectly. If their ships are rowed by slaves then the rest follows: it's a slaving culture, and a notably cruel one at that. If that's the setup, pirates would be guaranteed to sell captives as slaves. So yes, these pirates are really not nice at all even by piratical standards; Tolkien never gives us any reason to doubt that they're villains.Quote:
The ones that went to attack Gondor, we don't know what is going on in Umbar itself other than it has a tyrannical government. So you think the people of Umbar offer up no resistance and are just like "It's the pirates life for us!"? As I've said before you seem to make wide assumptions based on very limited text. Ultimately most of what happens in the Umbar expansion will be outside the scope of the known lore either way, given that all we know is some of the history. I asked for sources before and you showed me one line which said they had some slaves on the ships that attacked and have just been like "Welp, all corsairs are slaving owning monsters!"
Keep em evil and strengthen the argument for more open world pvp ^.^
I agree with those in the thread who have said "Mariner" would make a better name for the class. Any Corsairs who turned good would name themselves "Mariners" and would not be using that "Corsair" title in Gondor or anywhere else. Also, Tolkien had a distaste for French names and roots in most cases. Probably had to do with WWI.
Cheers! :D
With corsair we have term for "good guys" - Privateer:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantion
Err... and who's going to be issuing letters of marque or whatever to them, then? And don't say Aragorn, because having his own official set of licensed pirates really doesn't sound like something he'd do :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Elmagor
Way then he lead small fleet to attack Umbar and burn harbor can be considered as job for Privateer. Sure Tolkien know about Sir Francis Drake and what he done for EnglandQuote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
You're really reaching there - just because Drake was a privateer and there's the similarity of destroying a fleet at anchor (I assume you're thinking of the raid on Cadiz) doesn't mean Aragorn was acting as one. Drake got a personal cut of the profits from the stuff he laid hands on and a big cut (half!) went to the Queen herself because she'd provided him with four royal warships. Somehow I rather doubt Aragorn's relationship with the Steward of Gondor worked like that :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Elmagor
I just hope they don't make another goofy and "funny" class like the brawler has become.
While it feels okay to play, imo, it looks completely silly. Those animations feel like they called Daybreak to get an animations Dev and they got one from the DC Universe online team. And saying it got it's inspiration from Helm Hammerhand, nah man. Helm's Story was kinda tragic and cruel, Brawler is just slapstick stuff.
And in that regard i fear we'll get some Disney Pirate class, swining ropes, and screaming "Har har, the sea is always wrong."
I have three thoughts:
1) Swashbuckling combat sounds FUN! And if it implies some kind of sea-based content I'm always here for sailing and ships in MMOs. One of my favorite things to do in black desert.
2) Corsair as a class name has ...bad implications within the context of LOTRO. If this were another game, it would be fine as an alternate word for a pirate class. In LOTR, corsairs are a specific faction aligned with Sauron*
3) I like that idea of calling the class 'Duelist' more than Venturer. Too close to just 'Adventurer' which is what all classes are at heart. Swashbuckler would also be fun, but I love buckling swashes.
*Lots of discussion about a corsair that defected or otherwise joined the free peoples, but not making sense leveling through all the old content, so I propose to add to the discussion this: a class that starts at a higher level.
A class that starts at, say level 105, right around or just after the main epic books have completed. Sauron is gone, but there's a large mess left behind. A former Corsair working to redeem herself would be a very interesting thing to do, and could easily play into Elessar's post-war designs on rooting out shadow and further freeing the south and east. One could, of course, go back and do other things, and I think this would require finishing up to wedding on another character on your server, but it could be the way to go. Their entire intro experience could revolve around earning that initial trust to be granted free movement.
Who was the leader in Pelaglir? That's a major seaport anyway that's already constructed and a logical place to base the introduction of a Mariner class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU