How profane does profanity have to be?

The CoC seems to be very vague concerning profanity...how bad does a word have to be before it's considered a swear? What if somebody was swearing in their own language and nobody else knows its a swear, is that still bannable? Do swears only count words which are considered swears in the English language, and even then how bad of a swear does it have to be? If someone thinks darn or fart is a swear and you don't, can you be banned for swearing? It seems like people can get offended by almost anything these days and use the CoC as an excuse to ban everyone who's vocabulary doesn't match up with theirs, but I'd like to know the degree of profanity required for a ban, or atleast which is considered not acceptable.

Also I really find it irritating when people just say "if it's offensive then it's a swear and you should know better!" What if a word is a swear to one person but perfectly fine to another?

A good rule of thumb. It gets filtered by the LOTRO built in profanity filter. It is a banable offense.

Generally if it is an English language server, enforcement is only for English language offenses. In order for Turbine enforce against another language, they would need a fluent native language speaker.

Personally, I've always considered it more a case of usage and extent of usage than the exact words themselves. I think almost everyone lets out a curse once in a while, even in typed form, but if you can't form two sentences without the inclusion of 5 curse words then there's a problem and you should be dealt with. That's just my perspective though and I'm really not sure exactly what Turbine considers against the CoC as far as profanity is concerned.

I don't expect that you'll see a hard and fast rule given. It would be counter productive for Turbine to provide such as rule for many reasons.

Some would argue that if your word is caught by the profanity filter it's likely to be LESS of a problem than the use of a word or phrase that would clearly not be allowed on a children's television show yet is missed by the filter.

I use a-r-s-e instead of the alternative, I think it kind of follows the roleplaying aspect of speech...the rest of the curse words I just don't type here or in game. Of course a-r-s-e is filtered here....

Good rule of thumb....George Carlin's list of dirty words you can't use on regular TV is a good start of the list you definitely do NOT want to use in game.

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Originally Posted by lescastor

The CoC seems to be very vague concerning profanity...how bad does a word have to be before it's considered a swear? What if somebody was swearing in their own language and nobody else knows its a swear, is that still bannable? Do swears only count words which are considered swears in the English language, and even then how bad of a swear does it have to be? If someone thinks darn or fart is a swear and you don't, can you be banned for swearing? It seems like people can get offended by almost anything these days and use the CoC as an excuse to ban everyone who's vocabulary doesn't match up with theirs, but I'd like to know the degree of profanity required for a ban, or atleast which is considered not acceptable.

Also I really find it irritating when people just say "if it's offensive then it's a swear and you should know better!" What if a word is a swear to one person but perfectly fine to another?

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Will you soon be asking what the definition of "is" is?

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Originally Posted by lescastor

The CoC seems to be very vague concerning profanity...how bad does a word have to be before it's considered a swear? What if somebody was swearing in their own language and nobody else knows its a swear, is that still bannable? Do swears only count words which are considered swears in the English language, and even then how bad of a swear does it have to be? If someone thinks darn or fart is a swear and you don't, can you be banned for swearing? It seems like people can get offended by almost anything these days and use the CoC as an excuse to ban everyone who's vocabulary doesn't match up with theirs, but I'd like to know the degree of profanity required for a ban, or atleast which is considered not acceptable.

Also I really find it irritating when people just say "if it's offensive then it's a swear and you should know better!" What if a word is a swear to one person but perfectly fine to another?

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Fake poster.

It is simple. A word or phrase is a banning offense if Turbine says it is. Turbine house, Turbine rules. If chat offends someone and it is reported Turbine decides whether it is over the line or is not over the line. If one sees a moderator pop up in chat and remind folks to watch the language that is a good clue.

Best plan? If one is unsure whether or not certain language might be over the line, don't use that language.

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Originally Posted by chuimon

It is simple. A word or phrase is a banning offense if Turbine says it is. Turbine house, Turbine rules. If chat offends someone and it is reported Turbine decides whether it is over the line or is not over the line. If one sees a moderator pop up in chat and remind folks to watch the language that is a good clue.

Best plan? If one is unsure whether or not certain language might be over the line, don't use that language.

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thats the thing though really, different people are offended by different things. I think that Lara had the best answer so far but still I've known people who got banned just for saying cr@p or d@mnit. Perhaps it depends on the dev who receives the complaint or how much coffee was available in the morning :P

(also, sometimes the mods don't even give a warning and just ban you on the spot)

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Originally Posted by lescastor

I've known people who got banned just for saying cr@p or d@mnit.

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Since you felt it necessary to circumvent the filter, that should also be a clue. Circumventing the filter by creative typing is also listed as unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by chuimon

Since you felt it necessary to circumvent the filter, that should also be a clue. Circumventing the filter by creative typing is also listed as unacceptable.

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didnt someone just do that by saying A-r-s-e one moment ago?

one would think that normal cursing would be acceptable since there IS a profanity filter.

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Originally Posted by Fulison

one would think that normal cursing would be acceptable since there IS a profanity filter.

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Nope, that's not how it works....sorry.

I have no doubt that somewhere there is a list of typical situations and suggested application of the CoC to go with it. Now they can't possibly cover every situation so I think that it's left to the discretion of the GM and that's likely the best route to take. It gives them the latitude to discern a few finger slips vs. a concerted attempt to disrupt or harass for whatever reason someone feels the need to do this. It will never be published as this invites certain people to try to tread the line without going over it, and then if a GM does decide that enough is enough, they wind up here complaining about how they were wronged because they didn't do anything wrong according to the 'official list' of naughty words. You can abuse other players without resorting to 'four letter words' and the GM's need the authority to deal with this. Filters don't work, for every filter rule you make I can come up with a work-around, more than one actually. I don't think it takes long to decide who's being abusive or disruptive and who is just complaining about things because they can.

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Originally Posted by Lara69690

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Originally Posted by Fulison

one would think that normal cursing would be acceptable since there IS a profanity filter.

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Nope, that's not how it works....sorry.

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Amazing how many people just start up a game and have absolutely no idea what the rules are, isn't it? More amazing...they don't even care. Most amazing...they think the rules don't apply to them, or shouldn't, because they didn't know what they were.

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Originally Posted by chuimon

Since you felt it necessary to circumvent the filter, that should also be a clue. Circumventing the filter by creative typing is also listed as unacceptable.

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Also unacceptable... and worthy of infraction points... is quoting a violating post.

;)

The acceptable profane-ness of profanity has to be under 1500 CU.

What are CU? Carlin Units, of course, named after the late and great comedian George Carlin. A Carlin unit is defined as inverted delta in the following equation:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/c/0...5b17a30e6d.png

A is the butthole factor (edited for appropriateness), t is the time difference between when the event was posted and the square root of the number of minutes later it was reported. V is the volume of caffine in the reporting GM's bloodstream in cubic centimetres, and the other symbols are secret and sacrosanct, known only to the upper echelons of the Turbine staff.


It's a very scientific process.

At the risk of sounding like an English professor, I'd have to say it's not the words so much as the context.

An F-bomb thrown out here or there isn't going to trigger some inflexible, automatic banning response, but a clear pattern of gratuitous profanity, insults or threats to the point of harassment, or discussion of obscene material will probably do it, if a screenshot or two is sent to a GM.

The old rule is that one will know obscenity when one sees it... hard to classify otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Lara69690

I use a-r-s-e instead of the alternative, I think it kind of follows the roleplaying aspect of speech...the rest of the curse words I just don't type here or in game. Of course a-r-s-e is filtered here....

Good rule of thumb....George Carlin's list of dirty words you can't use on regular TV is a good start of the list you definitely do NOT want to use in game.

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Maybe that's because in English English that a-r-s-e is both the pronunciation and spelling of the offensive word. A-s-s which has no "r" sound is only a donkey and therefore is not in the slightest profane. It is only profane in American English...

EDIT: on topic, I always thought "profane" had religious overtones, i.e it is unsettling to some followers of (what I perceive to be) medieval mumbo jumbo? Do we take the use of the word in the ToS to mean all rude, crude, obscene and potentially offensive words - or does the interpretation of any particular cultures matter more?

As a Brit who has travelled extensively and frequently in the States (39 out of 50!) believe me even between English English and American English there are words one side uses almost routinely that can cause inadvertant offence to the other. Been there, done that.

As others have already indicated there is a line, may be in different places for diferent people, but way over the line is totally out of order and should be reported.

Supplementary question though, what about more private channels? IE in Fellowship--same rules? Private tells...I hope they are not monitored at all myself!! Public channels and rules should be applied

For the record, profanity filters are there so you don't have to see all the offensive words when someone goes on a rant. Just because it blocks the words doesn't make the words ok.

And the filter simply pattern matches the letters, so if it is a perfectly acceptable word but happens to contain a banned word (one I see often is another word for rooster which is embedded in many other words), the entire word gets filtered. Can be interesting sometimes trying to decode what was being said.

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Originally Posted by Lara69690

Good rule of thumb....George Carlin's list of dirty words you can't use on regular TV is a good start of the list you definitely do NOT want to use in game.

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LOL. RIP, George. I loved that dude.

I've heard of someone being banned for using "god damn" because a few people reported it as offensive. However at the same time I see people use dashes or slashes to type the more colorful swears and nothing happens to them. There isn't really much consistency in terms of temporary bans for chat. Basically its more a bunch of people reporting you than a GM happening to see it. So if you see people typing language or telling you to stop, it means they didn't appreciate your dashes and slashes in the chat window.

At the least, don't try to intentionally get a swear through the chat filter. The people who keep it on probably do it for a reason.

Alternatively, everyone could just not swear in the chat window, but with F2P around the corner, you better be prepared for every swear and racial cuss known to man, elf, dwarf, hobbit, ent, orc........

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Originally Posted by Ceejay90

Supplementary question though, what about more private channels? IE in Fellowship--same rules? Private tells...I hope they are not monitored at all myself!! Public channels and rules should be applied

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All tells including kinship and private are logged so that the game masters can review what was written. People have been banned for what they have written in the more private channels. I have reported people for inappropriate typing in kin, fellow and private chat.

The worse abuse that I've received in game has been in private, fellowship and kinship chat. There is not much you can do in fellowship chat. Your ignore list is not applicable to fellow chat. All you can do it is put up with it. Turn off fellowship chat - worthless solution. Try to get the fellow leader to control or boot them. Or leave the group. I gotten fellow mates banned before as a solution. You going to have to find someone else now - Fearless Leader.

Once again, I no longer give warnings to anyone. I quietly report them when their chat passes my tolerance threshold. In some cases, this make only take one word.