Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
The only people who should be discriminated against are filthy dwarves. I'm just kidding, they're not really people.
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
I understand where you're coming from, but you have to keep a few things in mind:
1: It's a fantasy world, created a long time ago. You can't ask filmmakers to remove racism from a Civil War movie, or WW2 movie right? Why ask gamedevelopers to do it?
2: The primitive part is just silly imho. Just because something evil has it, doesnt mean everybody who has that is evil.
The people in Forochel that aren't evil use totems as well, and they ARE primitive ( being secluded from the rest fo ME for a long time)
3: Female characters are just there to please the players. Not because of racism concern.
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fledermaus
This is post isn't intended to be inflammatory, or concern trolling. It is just food for thought for the mature Lotro community.
Nom nom nom, and now thinking...
Sorry mate but, thou thinkest too much. Don't read too much into things, gives one a migraine.
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
I actually don't know what you are trying to do here?
Swarthy means "Having a dark complexion"
So, it is a description of the person and in my mind, no way derogative.
Do a little reading before you post nonsense because Swarthy is actually used as a compliment in europe as it descibes the mediteranean healthy good looking man.
As to your other comments pfft!!! I am mixed race and have never even come close to being offended by Half orc!
I think this is more a reflection of where you are with your own life and mind.
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
The only real racism I've seen in the game is from RPers, honestly. I don't know how many times my elf with 8k morale has been accused of being feminine. Or how many times I've seen dwarves called fat and smelly.
But racism towards orcs, thats just epic lulz. Orcs are primitive in the books, and frankly should be. They are servants of the eye. They have no will of their own and live only to destroy. Orcs serve no other purpose other than to destroy their enemies. It's not like they have a sophisticated culture where they have to put their pinky out when drinking hobbit blood stew.
Orcs aren't a race, either. They are in my mind a species. Their blood is a different color and they spawn from holes in the ground....that's not really similar to human/elf creation (I dare not hypothesize on dwarf replication).
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
Whether the LOTR books themselves are racist is the subject of a lot of debate - all this talk of dark-skinned foreigners marching over our green and pleasant land with their guttural language and funny ways, it doesn't take a scholar to start reading it in that way. It's something you can go and google and read about.
The game will handle the issue as sensitively as it can. I see no reason to alter the goblin totems - isn't Sauron known for liking totems and idols of himself, or at least his followers are always building them. We do see totems in player-zones - I think the Angmarim have some, the Lossoth do and the Algraig do also. We can even put them outside our own homes. Describing the half-orcs as half-breeds is correct, for the people will see them as half animal (if you'd like to re-educate the people of Bree into the correct nature of the orc, you may... :) ) and it fits the setting that they would wish to insult their enemy in such a way.
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stanimir
Orcs aren't a race, either. They are in my mind a species. Their blood is a different color and they spawn from holes in the ground....that's not really similar to human/elf creation (I dare not hypothesize on dwarf replication).
In the books orcs breed normally. Their females are segregated and kept far far away from the front lines.
Additionally, according to various notes of Tolkiens, orcs originated from elves captured and tortured by Morgoth and then bred into what they are now. So there's an especially bitter hatred of orcs coming from the elves for that.
When orcs have nothing to guide them they generally tend to disband into smaller tribes and fight amongst themselves.
As for the other humans, I've always loved the way Faramir wondered at the southrons and if they were truely evil or just motivated by fear and lies and that they would rather not fight and just live out their lives.
But I'm sure there are plenty of people among the free peoples with an unreasonable (and in some ways reasonable depending on personal encounters) hatred of Easterlings and Southrons. After all, they've been fighting for centuries. I'd say that would be pretty realistic of any society.
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fledermaus
I suspect most of these tropes come from the original books themselves, which, to be fair, were written from the 1930's-1950's.
Yep, it's one of the criticisms the original works have gotten. It's as mild in the books as your examples however (and I don't know where you're coming from with swarthy either, as another poster pointed out).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stanimir
The only real racism I've seen in the game is from RPers, honestly. I don't know how many times my elf with 8k morale has been accused of being feminine.
Don't worry, they're just jealous that all the elf men get all the elf chicks! ;) *has no problem with the male elf look, but faces across the board (and hair) really need work, for all races*
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Okamion
The only people who should be discriminated against are filthy dwarves. I'm just kidding, they're not really people.
The only thing worse then a dwarf is a ginger dwarf.
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fledermaus
This is post isn't intended to be inflammatory, or concern trolling. It is just food for thought for the mature Lotro community.
These are some examples I noticed of insults that the bestowal text from quest-givers directs towards the enemy.
In Bree-land, the southern invaders are called "swarthy", as in swarthy southerners. This is intended as an insult. Swarthy means dark-skinned.
Also in Bree-land, the term "half-breed" is used as an insult against Sharkey's half-orc followers. Half-breed is a very old insult against mixed race people. The same term is not used, to my knowledge, to describe the half-elf characters in the game, only the dark "swarthy" skinned ones.
Goblins and other evil non-human characters (e.g. the tribal enemies in Lossoth) are shown as having camps full of animal totems. This appears to be a signifier for "primitiveness". To my knowledge, none of the cultures player characters come from have totems. Especially in North America, having totemic people = primitive = evil is very problematic given the treatment of aboriginals.
I suspect most of these tropes come from the original books themselves, which, to be fair, were written from the 1930's-1950's. Other stereotypes from that era have been updated for a modern game. For example, female characters can do anything male characters can, though this was very rare in the books. Perhaps outdated racial stereotypes should be removed too.
I only thought on that only when you brought up that. You should not think about it. If I never noticed until "Now", that means you are really "Digging" into that, the deeper you go, harder it will get.
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
Hm. That makes me wonder if there are human-hobbits or elf-hobbits. Although a human or an elf "getting it on" with a hobbit would seem so wrong :( And I'm not even going to say anything about half-dwarves.
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
Fledermaus
I completely agree with you. I don't think it's all that subtle, either. You got it right though - the game is based of books written by Tolkien, and Tolkien was a product of his time, which was a loooong time ago. Perhaps you might want to do some reading up about Tolkien. As Lilka said, a search with your search engine will show you a heap of stuff. A novel I can recommend is "Banewreaker" by Jacqueline Carey. And there are heaps of non-fiction works analysing Tolkien.
As to whether it needs to be taken out or not....I'm not sure. I have thoughts that say yes, and I have thoughts that so no. I was, for example, very unimpressed when I heard they were removing some of the (now) profane words from "Huckleberry Finn". Whether it actually would happen or not is another story entirely.
Cheers,
Kelly
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
This issue is always going to happen when you are dealing with material that was written a long time ago. You can't expect it to fit current moral standards.
Obviously when adapting older works you inherit all those dated values. You can remove them, cleanse your adaptation, but you then run the risk of losing a lot of the meaning and value in the process, and pretty much producing a farce.
I am ok with the balance in this game, because its in the context of a game.
Frankly, if the church is still allowed to preach from a book that sentences all gays to death [Leviticus 20:13 KJV], then LOTRO is ok by me.
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
It is not just the men from Bree, even the goblins of Moria are at it.
There was a picture posted in the Codemasters forum showing goblins saying "Moria belongs to the white now!"
Edit found the picture
http://gallery.mmoguildsites.com/img92898.jpg
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
Meh, no where near as bad as WoW. I always thought it was weird how the opposing would /spit on you even though you've never seen them before. And, in the forums there is all the horde/alliance hate. Finally hit me that what hit me as wrong with it is its just players who thought a certain race looked cool or wanted to play with friends, but by default the majority of the opposing faction will hate on them when possible. I thought "hey, thats basically racism".
I understand its just a game, but it never sat well with me, then again I got hit with a lot of racism growing up so Im probably just overly sensitive. LOTRO doesn't seem to bother me though as it seems more pixel related vs. player generated.
Then again, I may just still be in the honeymoon stage as Im new and I am immensely happy with this game so far lol
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cossieuk
It is not just the men from Bree, even the goblins of Moria are at it.
There was a picture posted in the Codemasters forum showing goblins saying "Moria belongs to the white now!"
]
thats because they were White Hand orcs not because of racism. Is using the word white racist now? If so then they should also ban white dye from the game as its a racist dye. It seems some people try to find and be offended by racism when it isnt always there.
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZimmerBadger
thats because they were White Hand orcs not because of racism. Is using the word white racist now? If so then they should also ban white dye from the game as its a racist dye. It seems some people try to find and be offended by racism when it isnt always there.
I thought the sarcasm was implied in my post, but clearly I should have used a sarcasm smiley
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
The PC brigade could find discrimination in pretty much anything. Please leave a classical well-loved literature - and even this game for that matter - out of the clutches of the speech and thought police.
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
Racism? Racism? Really, dude? Racism?
FYI..."dark-skinned" does not necessarily mean black African or Middle Eastern or Spanish, etc. It simply means you have a dark complexion. In other words, it could refer to a caucasion who has a dark complexion due to spending too much time in the sun. I belive the intended connotation is akin to calling someone a "red-neck," which is" historically derogatory slang term used in reference to poor white farmers in the Southern United States." "The term characterized farmers having a red neck caused by sunburn from hours working in the fields. A citation from 1893 provides a definition as "poorer inhabitants of the rural districts...men who work in the field, as a matter of course, generally have their skin stained red and burnt by the sun, and especially is this true of the back of their necks". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck
Prior to the 20th century, having a tan was a sign of poverty as it indicated you spent most of your time in the sun usually farming or doing some form of labor. It had absolutely nothing to do with "racism" or black Africans.
I won't go into the conclusions you've drawn about the tribal cultures and half-breeds, because frankly, it's just too ridiculous and contrived to discuss.
The only biases and stereotypes I see here are the ones you possess, OP. The fact that you've found, in your mind, racism in such benign things like the word "swarthy" and take offense to a half human, half mythological evil creature being called "half-breed" is much more indicative of your personal frame of mind, than the designers of this game. (On a side note, in looking some of this up online, I found it interesting that the Harry Potter books use "half-breed" to describe "a character who is of mixed human/magical creature ancestry." Is that "racist" too?) Are you next going to tell us that orcs are simply mistreated and misunderstood, and the only reason they are evil is because of being called racist names by their white oppresive humans?
People obsessed with racism will find it anywhere, in anything, in any conversation, and apparently in any video game.
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stanimir
The only real racism I've seen in the game is from RPers, honestly. I don't know how many times my elf with 8k morale has been accused of being feminine. Or how many times I've seen dwarves called fat and smelly.
Funny thing about the people who say Dwarves have a fear of hygeine, they obviously don't read quest text. There is a quest in Forochel where a Dwarf really wants to get hot water into the bath halls of the structure where he lives, Z-something... I forget the name. Also, in Moria, a Dwarf who discovers Gredbyg in his bed, mentions taking a bath in the flavor text after the bugs are squashed.
In Ered Luin and Thorins Hall, there are quests that are dedicated to keeping a clean water supply for drinking, and one would assume bathing as well.
In Moria, there's an entire ZONE dedicated to the supply and flow of water in Moria. Look at the waterworks, the shallow pools, sloping ramps into the pools, even sides. It's a huge bath hall!
Dwarves bathe, frequently.
I've never heard a hobbit talk about baths, but they loved hanging out in the pigsties of Budgeford!
Never heard Menfolk talk about bathing, I'm a human, and man on a hot summer day I get pretty sweaty!
Elves? They're content to rub flowers on themselves while crying about how their hearts don't sing or some defeatist ####. Go buy some mascara ya overly emotional coward.
I do wish I could point to something in texts, but Tolkien wrote so little about Dwarves, that much of the society is a total mystery. So therefor I'm at liberty to just declare that anything Elves can do, Dwarves can do better!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stanimir
But racism towards orcs, thats just epic lulz. Orcs are primitive in the books, and frankly should be. They are servants of the eye. They have no will of their own and live only to destroy. Orcs serve no other purpose other than to destroy their enemies. It's not like they have a sophisticated culture where they have to put their pinky out when drinking hobbit blood stew.
Primitive? check
Slaves to the shadow of the Eye? check
No will and live only to destroy? Mostly check, some orc conversations in the books pointed to orcs being willful, selfish, and cowardly unless they had massive numbers at their backs.
Live for destruction of enemies? Check, and destruction of anything alive really. Check the descriptions of the area after Boromir's death in Fellowship of the Ring. Following the orcs through the woods was easy, they slashed everything in their path, even saplings that didn't need to be cut got chopped. Orcs love to destroy.
Hobbit Stew? Now I'm hungry....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stanimir
Orcs aren't a race, either. They are in my mind a species. Their blood is a different color and they spawn from holes in the ground....that's not really similar to human/elf creation (I dare not hypothesize on dwarf replication).
Orcs are a race of Elves*. Check the Silmarillion.
*-yeah, it's a stretch, and insulting, but following up what that poster said about Dwarves, it's justified.
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fledermaus
This is post isn't intended to be inflammatory, or concern trolling. It is just food for thought for the mature Lotro community.
<edit>
I suspect most of these tropes come from the original books themselves, which, to be fair, were written from the 1930's-1950's. Other stereotypes from that era have been updated for a modern game. For example, female characters can do anything male characters can, though this was very rare in the books. Perhaps outdated racial stereotypes should be removed too.
Few things:
Sanitizing the legendarium, or any work of literature, art, etc, is an abhorrent and contemptible solution that never has justification.
As others noted there is a wealth of information regarding Tolkien and cultural bias vs racism.
I think this type of thread would be better served in the Tolkien sub-forum.
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
This has to be one of the most asinine threads I've ever seen on these forums.
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fledermaus
This is post isn't intended to be inflammatory, or concern trolling. It is just food for thought for the mature Lotro community.
These are some examples I noticed of insults that the bestowal text from quest-givers directs towards the enemy.
In Bree-land, the southern invaders are called "swarthy", as in swarthy southerners. This is intended as an insult. Swarthy means dark-skinned.
Also in Bree-land, the term "half-breed" is used as an insult against Sharkey's half-orc followers. Half-breed is a very old insult against mixed race people. The same term is not used, to my knowledge, to describe the half-elf characters in the game, only the dark "swarthy" skinned ones.
Goblins and other evil non-human characters (e.g. the tribal enemies in Lossoth) are shown as having camps full of animal totems. This appears to be a signifier for "primitiveness". To my knowledge, none of the cultures player characters come from have totems. Especially in North America, having totemic people = primitive = evil is very problematic given the treatment of aboriginals.
I suspect most of these tropes come from the original books themselves, which, to be fair, were written from the 1930's-1950's. Other stereotypes from that era have been updated for a modern game. For example, female characters can do anything male characters can, though this was very rare in the books. Perhaps outdated racial stereotypes should be removed too.
"Primitive" is a relative term, so you MAKE others "primitive" by calling them so.
Re: Subtle Racism in Lotro
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fledermaus
This is post isn't intended to be inflammatory, or concern trolling. It is just food for thought for the mature Lotro community..
Some people are intent on finding racism so they find it.
I find your comments about half-breed pretty laughable, since a cross between an Orc and a Human would be perfectly legitimately be described as producing a 'half-breed'.
Again, you're intent on finding something abusive, so you find it, in spite of the fact it's perfectly reasonable use of the English language.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ciryandir
This has to be one of the most asinine threads I've ever seen on these forums.
You beat me to the 'a' word. :)
