I grow weary from all the negativity.

(This is my first post on the forums, as I prefer to spend my free time playing rather than typing. However I felt compelled to speak my mind about this.)

Let me just preface this by stating that I am in fact a LotRO Fanboy. But I am also a Fanboy of MMO's in general. I love MMOs of all types, genres, and payment models. I have been exclusively playing MMO's for the last 8 years. And I have to say that the only thing I have come to find truly frustrating about MMO's in general is the attitude of the very vocal minorities on the forums. So much hate gets spewed at the developers that it is a wonder official forums are even supported by the game companies to begin with. Now I know it may seem unfair to make such a generalized statement, and I acknowledge that for every negative post there are always some positive ones to try and balance it out. But I just don't understand why so many forum posters are dead set on creating such a negative atmosphere.

Lately I have been most frustrated with the seemingly endless anger towards game companies attempting to monetize their games and turn a profit. Here is a simple truth, Game companies need to make money. Shocking I know! If Companies like Turbine do not continually find ways to create profit within their game then the game that we all love(lets face it, we all love this game. Even the ones that take the time to complain about it and state otherwise.) will have to shut down. If you are looking to play a game and not spend a dime then your are part of the problem. It is ignorant to think that just because a game has the moniker of F2P that you should expect to play said game indefinitely without being asked to spend some money. That being said, I realize that there are varying degrees with which different companies decide to monetize their games. And of the many games out there that support the microtransaction model, LotRO is far and away one of the best if not the best of the bunch. An example of community hate that has gone way too far would be the recent addition of the hobbit presents. Just scroll through the ongoing discussion under the developer diaries post and you eyes will be assaulted with flame after flame over the addition of this system into the game. Lets break down what the hobbit presents are... A completely optional FREE GIFT that is bestowed either once daily or once weekly. These gifts include vendor trash worth some coin, class applicable account bound middle of the road gear, and valuable cash store items that can be worth a considerable amount of real life money. You also have the option to roll more times for chances at more stuff by paying a small fee. Who gets mad about being given FREE stuff? It is FREE with no obligation and yet the community is in an uproar over it. Just plain silly.

That was just one example of the many things the vocal community chooses to crucify the developers over. I will not take the time to go into them all here(time spent in the forums is time spent not playing). Also I would like to state a fact that the players rarely seem to acknowledge, which is the major contributing factor as to why I consider LotRO's F2P model to be the best in the market right now, and that is that Turbine allows you to earn legitimate cash shop currency by simply playing their game. I have not encountered any other F2P title that does this in the way that LotRO does. Most games will never give you the opportunity to acquire the items in their cash shops unless you (prancing) pony up the dough. You can literally play LotRO and acquire all the things you want from the cash shop and never spend a cent as long as you are willing to work for it. And yet players have the audacity to call Turbine greedy.

LotRO players, you are spoiled. You do not realize how good you have it. I for one am thankful that Turbine is always looking for new and interesting ways to generate profit. Because as long as they are making money, the doors to middle earth will remain open to me. So long as LotRO remains profitable we will continue to receive quality expansion packs, bug fixes, and content revamps. No game will ever be perfect and you cannot please everyone. But next time you feel frustrated about something in the game, maybe take a second to breath before you go on the forums and tear the developers a new one. I guarantee you that the developers are doing the best they can to create a game that their players love while simultaneously being profitable. LotRO has always been known for having the best community. And It has been a point of pride for me as a founder of LotRO to be a part of that community. So lets step it up a bit and put our support behind our development team instead of bombarding them with contempt(and maybe toss a little money their way every now and then also).

-Grumfin Broadbeard

I have tossed them money over the past 5 years. In fact, I've tossed them well over $1,000 real American cold hard cash that I earn working every day.

When I see them taking that money and putting it into content of less and less quality and that holds little interest to me as a player I voice my opinion regarding the product I pay for. In short - I love this game and I hate what they're doing to it. Hobbit presents are a waste of time but whatever. Lack of playable content is a deal breaker for many of us, and when we perceive our hard earned money that we spend on this game going to frivolous freebies that do not benefit us in any significant way we protest.

We've been patient. But supporting a bad direction by paying for second-rate content simply ensures you get more second-rate content. Again - I love this game. I protest because I want them to know I love it and want it to be better.

Just by coincidence I made a post a couple of hours ago saying that all game forums are doom and gloom. Not just MMO forums, all of them. I am a regular in the Bethesda forums and they are exactly the same as here. We've been patient, Bethesda just cares about money, TES(The Elder Scrolls) games are being catered to the casuals, TES games are being dumbed down, and it goes on.

What's weird is that when I am in the forums I feel like I'm playing a broken down MMO that's dying and when I actually play, I have a blast, even after playing for over 6 years.

I love this freaking game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Salvacion

.....

LotRO players, you are spoiled. You do not realize how good you have it. I for one am thankful that Turbine is always looking for new and interesting ways to generate profit. Because as long as they are making money, the doors to middle earth will remain open to me. So long as LotRO remains profitable we will continue to receive quality expansion packs, bug fixes, and content revamps. No game will ever be perfect and you cannot please everyone. But next time you feel frustrated about something in the game, maybe take a second to breath before you go on the forums and tear the developers a new one. I guarantee you that the developers are doing the best they can to create a game that their players love while simultaneously being profitable. LotRO has always been known for having the best community. And It has been a point of pride for me as a founder of LotRO to be a part of that community. So lets step it up a bit and put our support behind our development team instead of bombarding them with contempt(and maybe toss a little money their way every now and then also).

-Grumfin Broadbeard

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QFT. Thanks for sharing. I think this negativity is an unfortunate trend on video gaming forums in general, it's definitely not restricted to these forums. I'm constantly comparing LOTRO against other AAA pc game titles I play and it stands shoulders-to-shoulders with the best of them.

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Originally Posted by Beaniemooch

I have tossed them money over the past 5 years. In fact, I've tossed them well over $1,000 real American cold hard cash that I earn working every day.

When I see them taking that money and putting it into content of less and less quality and that holds little interest to me as a player I voice my opinion regarding the product I pay for. In short - I love this game and I hate what they're doing to it. Hobbit presents are a waste of time but whatever. Lack of playable content is a deal breaker for many of us, and when we perceive our hard earned money that we spend on this game going to frivolous freebies that do not benefit us in any significant way we protest.

We've been patient. But supporting a bad direction by paying for second-rate content simply ensures you get more second-rate content. Again - I love this game. I protest because I want them to know I love it and want it to be better.

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This is ok. You play the game and you are voicing your concerns. That's cool. This is constructive criticism and it is a very needed asset to the game and the company.

What I hate are the knuckle heads that don't play and continue to come to the forums to bash the game. That's not cool.

I agree with the sentiment that while they have explicitly stated that they have more money and employ more people than in the past, we continue to get less and less content.

If I've ever been spoiled by LOTRO, it was 2007-2010. Now I'm just barely given enough to keep me around, and even that's mostly because of friends.

Just because doom and gloom is always around to some degree or another doesn't mean there aren't times when it's more warranted.

Totally agree with the OP.

People are too spoiled and Hobbit Presents is a good example.
Another good example is the complaints on Facebook (especially) about downtimes. People overreacting, cursing, insulting and flat-out inventing BS to the whole developer team.
It's unbelievable really. And it doesn't just happen with LOTRO. Everywhere i look whether it's the official Peter Jackson facebook, or some more private page, people are insulting each other with such ease that it scares me. Even girls speak like death row prisoners nowadays.
What has the Internet changed too?

anyway that's another issue.
The easiness that people dethrone and the will to destroy something is unbelievable.

As for LOTRO i've given them money and i still do and i plan to keep doing that.

I acknowledge the problems :
Rubberbanding, seldom lag spikes and problems with a few instances in the past (Flight, Hytbold Instances that had to be taken down).
Plus the current maintenance downtimes which a lot of people keep complaining.
I don't complain about those because i know that this year we had 2 huge changes:
1) The back end systems downtime and
2) The LOTRO Launcher dowtime.
These 2 changed quite a few things and i truly believe they're something that only happen every 6 years or so.

@Beaniemooch

I really can't understand how one can say Hobbit Presents are "a waste of time". Is 5 seconds of your time really doesn't worth a chance for something free? Such as
900silver
1.8gold
2.7gold
Heal Potions
Rejuvenation Potions
Regeneration Food

and more rare stuff like

Stat Tomes
Scrolls of Perfect Crafting Lore
etc

Is that so bad that you have to be negative about it? Do you get 900silver faster than 5seconds that makes you hate Hobbit Presents so much? I actually find HP an awesome application for getting that and not going out to farm to death for gold.
Certainly not a waste of my time.

As for the the content, yes the new raids (which i guess you refer to) are not that big as what Carn Dum/Barad Guldur/Barad Gularan were for example. No way. But then again you also got that in Moria. 2 single boss raids (Turtle and Watcher). Of course you got 4-5 awesome 6man, but i'm just saying about raids. With RoR we got 3 awesome 3men and 1 very good 6man.

Anyway i still see the point in what you say though, and you're right.

But take into consideration that less Instance dev time in RoR Instances means more time in future instances. And i really do believe that the time that should go to improve RoR Instances has went to the HD instances.
I really think that Turbine chose that road : Get the best instances in HD instead of just having 2 good instance clusters.
Guess we'll find out soon. :)

Lastly, i disagree with "Lack Of Playable Content". Even if we had no scaled instances (OD, Fornost) this year, you'd still by definition have more playable content.

Cheers!

I appreciate the original poster's sentiments and pretty much agree with all he says. While I once played LotRO almost daily for a few hours, my time is much more limited these days and so I don't have the problem of lack of content. If anything, I'm overwhelmed with how much I can do. I run nine toons and spend a lot of time crafting, deed mopping, auctioning, skirmishing, and even a bit of role playing and monster play, all when I'm not QUESTING! My main toon is still just level 82, and I enjoy taking my time leveling my toons.

So thank you, Turbine, for giving casual players like me a great game that I will never run out of content with. I only hope Turbine sticks it out for the long haul, with at least 2-3 more years and a few more expansions taking us up to level 100 and Mordor!

And for what it's worth, I LOVE the hobbit presents! Extra incentive for logging in each day :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frisco

I agree with the sentiment that while they have explicitly stated that they have more money and employ more people than in the past, we continue to get less and less content.

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Um I really don't think that's the case. I think it's totally the opposite.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nymphonic

What's weird is that when I am in the forums I feel like I'm playing a broken down MMO that's dying and when I actually play, I have a blast, even after playing for over 6 years.

I love this freaking game.

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You nailed that one right on the head, I use to browse these forums a lot, and I wouldn't play because it was just so negative, but if I'm playing and not caring what's going on here, I have so much fun.

I grow weary of these forums (good thing I copy/saved)...

Been playing since beta, part of a small kin & we still have fun & log on daily. I am currently leveling up my first Champ (shing-shing) and am liking the Moria revamp & loving Champs! I log on to get away from RL & always have a ton of stuff to do to achieve this. However...

I do think Turbine should address the raid/group/random loot issue. They seem to have dropped the ball for those that used to have large, active kins that liked to run challenging content together. I think the pendulum has swung way too far in one direction. Just my opinion and I solo 90% of the time....I think a lot of the hard feelings we see on game forums come from (what used to be) a large portion of MMO players feeling let down by their game & bored. I don't like it. I'd rather see a more balanced set of choices for different playstyles. They have also dropped the ball with performance issues (they really need to update their minimum requirements, esp for anything beyond ROI) and BUGS, old & new....

As far as hobbit presents go, meh, they don't bother me, it's like the lottery in my mind, just an extra little thing to look forward to when we log on. It's a business & YES they have to make $ to keep the game running. Duh?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vincent_Price

@Beaniemooch

I really can't understand how one can say Hobbit Presents are "a waste of time". Is 5 seconds of your time really doesn't worth a chance for something free? Such as
900silver
1.8gold
2.7gold
Heal Potions
Rejuvenation Potions
Regeneration Food

and more rare stuff like

Stat Tomes
Scrolls of Perfect Crafting Lore
etc

Is that so bad that you have to be negative about it? Do you get 900silver faster than 5seconds that makes you hate Hobbit Presents so much? I actually find HP an awesome application for getting that and not going out to farm to death for gold.
Certainly not a waste of my time.

As for the the content, yes the new raids (which i guess you refer to) are not that big as what Carn Dum/Barad Guldur/Barad Gularan were for example. No way. But then again you also got that in Moria. 2 single boss raids (Turtle and Watcher). Of course you got 4-5 awesome 6man, but i'm just saying about raids. With RoR we got 3 awesome 3men and 1 very good 6man.

Anyway i still see the point in what you say though, and you're right.

But take into consideration that less Instance dev time in RoR Instances means more time in future instances. And i really do believe that the time that should go to improve RoR Instances has went to the HD instances.
I really think that Turbine chose that road : Get the best instances in HD instead of just having 2 good instance clusters.
Guess we'll find out soon. :)

Lastly, i disagree with "Lack Of Playable Content". Even if we had no scaled instances (OD, Fornost) this year, you'd still by definition have more playable content.

Cheers!

---

I think he mean waste of time of the devs. Instead of making hobbit present, they could spend time to fixing bugs or something.

And yes i agreed that we have many many group contents, but the problem is the effect/reward system they give us atm doesnt encourage people doing those contents. GA, CD, RIFT, Moria... many many great instances and raids that took lots of time to develope are wasted now. They need to think somehow to make those popular again. Not just scale them, but make people run them, and LOVE to run it (not run with boredom). There are a few suggestions in the suggestions' box for this problem. Probably instead of make things like Hobbit's presents, they could read and think about those threads.

We have a saying where I come from...

People vote with their feet.

If you're unhappy with something then leave. No-one asks you to stay, no-one asks you to complain endlessly about how bad things are.

If things are that bad, just go... Leave! And take your negativity with you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Salvacion

So much hate gets spewed at the developers that it is a wonder official forums are even supported by the game companies to begin with.

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Back in the day they didn't, UO, E&B, DAOC, even Warhammer Online didn't originally have official forums until EA took over (UO and E&B were originally OSI, they were bought out by EA before UO was released but managed by themselves with very liuttle input from EA, and DAOC and Warhammer were GOA/Mythic Entertainment), and all stated the reason as being that forums did not represent the entire community and always ended up causing arguments. I remember GOA (the original host for both DAOC and WH:O in Europe) publicly stating that if we want forums then the fan base can provide them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nymphonic

What's weird is that when I am in the forums I feel like I'm playing a broken down MMO that's dying and when I actually play, I have a blast, even after playing for over 6 years.

I love this freaking game.

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Well said - I feel exactly the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Salvacion

Who gets mad about being given FREE stuff? It is FREE with no obligation and yet the community is in an uproar over it. Just plain silly.

-Grumfin Broadbeard

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This argument comes up again and again and it demonstrates that you have failed to grasp what some players are angry about.

It is not a question of objecting to free stuff but disliking the delivery mechanism.

LOTRO is praised by its fans for its design and aesthetics. It is a beautiful representation of Tolkien’s Middle-earth and one of the games major selling points.

The Hobbit Presents slot machine cheapens that and spoils it.

It is like going into The Hermitage, Buckingham Palace or Petra and installing a slot machine straight out of Vegas.

It is this juxtaposition between something of artistic merit and the cheap and the tawdry that annoys many LOTRO players.

I won’t dispute you on the issue of the need for F2P games to make money. However it is how developers go about it that is often the problem.

I have been giving some thought to all the negativity recently, in particular the repeated posting of the troll blog announcing "the end of LotRO". I have come to the conclusion that there is something about LotRO that inspires a rather dedicated form of hatred among some portion of the gaming community. Something certainly seems to be causing some folk to feel the need to continually attack the game in a very determined way.

Some people clearly have a particular issue with Turbine as much or even more than with the game itself. I'm not going to go there as it gets very much into the realms of subjectivity.

I think that there are issues with the game that induce negative reactions in portions of the community, and these stem from the perceived way in which the game has been developing over the last few years. As far as I can see, LotRO started out as a "classic" MMO, with the one exception that PvP was largely lacking and was tacked on as a side game in a last-minute addition.

It seems to have been well received at launch and people often comment on the quality of the early raids such as Helegrod and The Rift. Since that time, the game has followed a path that takes it more towards supporting the "solo"/"casual" style of play, and the raiding community certainly feels more than a little neglected and abandoned. Given that, it is hardly surprising that there has been a fair amount of complaint/request, especially after the announcement of a new expansion.

To this you have to add those who feel that the game has become "too easy". I see this as being part of the move towards the "solo"/"casual" end of the spectrum. It is inevitably going to make the game seem easier to those of a more "hardcore" persuasion.

Finally, you have to add in those who want to see more/better PvP in the game. They have always felt neglected, and while changes have been made, they have not always been as promised, and they have never come close to being the step-change improvement in PvP that many seem to want.

So, it would seem that there is a portion of the community that has real or perceived reasons to feel dissatisfied. However, this doesn't explain the degree of hostility that is expressed in many posts. After giving this some thought, I think it is probably explaned by the same factor that motivates so many supportive posts, namely that ths is Middle Earth, and many, many people have a deep attchment to the lore and the concept of The Lord of the Rings. This means that they come to the game with very high expectations, and depending on whether or not those expctations are met, develop strong positive or negative feelings about the game.

I don't see this as a bad thing, and even if it was, I don't see anything that could be done about it. I think that this game will inherently generate strong reactions, whatever it does. As has been noted in other threads, it is probably impossible to please all of the people all of the time. Probably the best that can be aimed for is most of the people most of the time.

Personally, I think that LotRO is firmly in that space, but if you are outside of that "most people" and "most of the time" locus, then you are going to feel very disappointed, and a few individuals will react particularly strongly against it. Essentially, LotRO has its "stalkers - spurned players who either feel the need for revenge, or who feel that if only they can get point across strongly enough, Turbine will "see the light" and their relationship will be fulfilled again.

I read quite a few game forums and from my experience, in every forum the game the forum is about is the worst ever made. If the game is a mmo it will be dead soon as well.

Mind you it's just a minority usually being that negative but it overshadows most other stuff, sadly usually constructive criticism too.
My advice to people is that if you're easily influenced stay away from any game forums.

If you think about it, it's kinda normal...

Many (I'd even daresay most) people only come to forums mostly when something is wrong. When they are happy, they spend the time playing the game, not posting, except a few "forum warriors" on both sides of the fence (negative and positive) who have more fun playing the "forum game" than the game itself.

Every official forum of a "mainstream" MMORPG I've been part of in the last 17 years has been like that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thorwyn99

I read quite a few game forums and from my experience, in every forum the game the forum is about is the worst ever made. If the game is a mmo it will be dead soon as well.

Mind you it's just a minority usually being that negative but it overshadows most other stuff, sadly usually constructive criticism too.
My advice to people is that if you're easily influenced stay away from any game forums.

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and

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Korrigan

If you think about it, it's kinda normal...

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Korrigan

Many (I'd even daresay most) people only come to forums mostly when something is wrong. When they are happy, they spend the time playing the game, not posting, except a few "forum warriors" on both sides of the fence (negative and positive) who have more fun playing the "forum game" than the game itself.

Every official forum of a "mainstream" MMORPG I've been part of in the last 17 years has been like that.

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truest thing ever written +rep

Good grief...

Just as a disclaimer, I've read the whole thing, but I will be posting my reply segmented by small parts of your post. I'm not cherry picking sentences, I'm still replying to the whole thing. Just doing it this way to make the post easier to the eye.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Salvacion

Here is a simple truth, Game companies need to make money.

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Here is an even simpler truth; game companies need to please customers to make money. If their attempted methods at making money displeases or even alienates customers instead, they won't make as much money as they would want to. It's to their best interest to come up with ways that will please more of the audience, therefore making more money.

They need to make money, so they need to provide what the audience wants.

You are thinking of it in reverse. You expect all players to be sympathetic with the company simply because "they need to make money". You expect players to ignore or tolerate what they dislike, just because the company is desperate for money.

You see, that is unconscious consumerism my friend. Turbine is a company built on profit, as you also seem to be aware. Your relationship with such companies should strictly be based on trade. You should not feel any unconditional obligation to support the company financially. They please you, you give your positive feedback and your money. They don't please you, you give them your negative feedback and don't give them your money. It is as simple as that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Salvacion

Who gets mad about being given FREE stuff?

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Your understanding of criticism is shallow at best.

If you had even bothered to read the Hobbit Presents Feedback thread, you would see that the complaints are mostly centered around two main points.

1. The fact that it is a slot machine in nature and in appearance
2. The fact that it a TP spending (read: can be purchased with real money) gambling system. In a game that is not strictly 18+ to boot.

I have yet to see anyone complain about being given free stuff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Salvacion

LotRO players, you are spoiled. You do not realize how good you have it.

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Ohoooo. That is extremely insulting to everyone who actually cares about the game but isn't pleased with the way Turbine is handling it.

I'm not going to repeat myself. Turbine is not a non-profit organization. They are offering a service. You are spoiled he says... How good you have it he says... As if this is some kind of blessing from the heavens. It's a damned video game that is driven by profit. It needs and deserves all the positive and negative feedback it gets so that the designers and developers can plan which way to go next if they want to be more successful.

You know, normally your post deserves a much longer reply. A massively fleshed out reply that would counter every single flimsy point you make. Too bad I don't care that much, perhaps someone else does. Just some friendly advice though. You should indeed stick to playing the game and not waste your free time posting on the forums...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nymphonic

What's weird is that when I am in the forums I feel like I'm playing a broken down MMO that's dying and when I actually play, I have a blast, even after playing for over 6 years.

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The description of this feeling is very familiar to how I feel. This is exactly how I feel most of the time. xD

Do not forget that if you have 100 negative people and 100 positive people, the following will typically happen:
- 10 negative people will complain
- 1 positive person will compliment

Also, LOTRO is in a doldrum between expansions. People aren't hyped, are longing for 'moar new content'. People start playing repetitive content. Circumstances that breed negativity.

Anyway, the best way to guarantee enjoying LOTRO is to just be in game and play it, instead of roaming the forums.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rainothon

Do not forget that if you have 100 negative people and 100 positive people, the following will typically happen:
- 10 negative people will complain
- 1 positive person will compliment

Also, LOTRO is in a doldrum between expansions. People aren't hyped, are longing for 'moar new content'. People start playing repetitive content. Circumstances that breed negativity.

Anyway, the best way to guarantee enjoying LOTRO is to just be in game and play it, instead of roaming the forums.

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Excellent point! Starting client now! Thanks for the tip. :)

Brilliantly argued and very well-written OP. I would also agree with those who explain the negativity as a result of happy players not coming to the Forums, and also the fact that, in my experience, all Forums are negative. However it appears to me to be an abnegation of responsibility to say that if you are happy you should just stay away from the Forums and play. If - and I fully accept this to be the case - some people complain on the grounds that they love the game and want to improve it, then it seems to me equally true that those people who love some particular aspect (quest, instance, deed whatever) should also say so in order that the devs know when they please some people as well as when they displease some people (and of course this will often be in reaction to the same thing!). So I am going to try to come to the Forums when something particularly pleases me - sort of half-years Resolution :).

The interesting point about other Forums is that while agreeing all are negative it is fascinating to consider how justified this is. Now I am not arguing that LOTRO is perfect and accept that people have genuine grievances with what they perceive to be the direction and so on. But compared with the other games I have played (and I admit to limited experience having only played 2 other MMO's in real depth) this game is spectacularly free of the worst problems of bots and gold farming and gold selling - maybe this goes on but all I can say is that I very rarely encounter it. I can therefore enjoy the world of LOTRO without being constantly hassled about gold selling sites or wondering if other players are human! These are real problems (beyond gameplay mechanics/story etc.) and should justify a much higher degree of negativity. Be thankful for big mercies in other words.

Finally on a related topic I had been mulling over I wondered about the role of Forum Moderator. On paper this would probably seem like a dream job to many gamers, but in reality it must become a bit of a nightmare; I would certainly lose my cool (and mind) after just a few hours!