No Longer Optional - Quest Guide Necessary for Newer Quests (Ringlo Vale Epilogue, etc.)

I've said for years that the "Quest Guide" feature was the quintessential moment where this game went full-on "easy mode". . . instead of having to read what NPCs were telling us, apply it, and find objectives using their directions, our navigational skills, the map, and some perseverance, we were instead given a feature where we click the NPC, click accept, rotate to point towards the magical arrow on our radar, and proceed forward. Questing can essentially be done on auto-pilot.

Now, whenever someone objected to the trivialization of the game's content like this, people would say: "If you want a challenge, just turn it off!" The fundamental problems with that advice/solution aside, such a thing isn't even possible any longer. . . because more and more, the quest designers themselves have become dependent on the Quest Guide feature. And whereas they used to have NPCs provide verbal/dialog to help us find objectives ourselves, now they no longer do so in a great many cases.

I just stumbled upon what appears to be the best example of this so far. . . the Epilogue: Restless Souls - Ringlo Vale. You are sent to retreive five items. However, you're not told anything about where they might be except "somewhere in Western and Central Gondor". . . that is it. In the pre-Quest Guide era, you can bet there would have been some story/dialog to lead us in the right direction and possibly to other NPCs who might provide further clues. Here and now? Nothing. Just, "go find this stuff". . . and five Rings appear across the map of Western Gondor.

Try doing that without the Quest Guide! :rolleyes:

I realize the Quest Guide isn't going anywhere. People want their easy mode. But can we at least preserve the ability to accomplish quests without using it to a reasonable degree?

This is only the most recent and egregious case I noticed. There are many others (the River Sisters spread across Central Gondor comes to mind).

Now, for those who want to intentionally miss the point and say: "You wanted a challenge! Go find that stuff with the Quest Guide turned off. . . there's your challenge! You can't ask for more challenge and then whine that it's too hard!" The point is that there was a "reasonable" level of engagement on the part of the payer to find objectives prior to the Quest Guide making it all trivial. Note that I'm not asking for quest objectives to be brutally difficult to find with no guidance or landmarks (that was not how quests used to be pre-Guide).

Best,

H

That quest also triggered my "damn, that's lazy writing" in another way -- the total "my character is acting like an idiot and a jerk to everyone" parts of the quest. One of the dead guys who refused to follow Aragorn asks you to retrieve the items that were pledged as collateral for his oath, so you do.

1) So, um... Collateral. He handed over those items, voluntarily, with the understanding that he wouldn't get them back if he broke his oath. That's what collateral means. Now he's whining that he wants to get them back after twice breaking his oath? Shut up, whiner, you signed up with team evil, and you want team good-guy to give back the collateral for your oath not to join team evil? Why am I running this quest again?

2) Ok, so I'm questing to get these relics of his, from the second age. Like, a second age crown. Which is in the throne room at Dol Amaroth. Which I just saunter in, pick up, and walk out with. What kind of sketchy thief am I supposed to be playing? I thought I was the hero here? I don't even get a chance to mention to the people in charge of Dol Amaroth that I'm walking off with the darn CROWN that's been passed down since the SECOND AGE? No, I'm just going to steal it from them, because a dead guy asked me to? And then I go rob the nice elves nearby, again not bothering to ask them for the item or even mention that I'm taking it. And I rob some apothecary shop that has no justification for why it has a second age gem that almost certainly costs more than the entire value of the rest of the shop, but that's ok, I'm stealing it for a holy mission of helping out a bad guy who swears he's not going to do evil THIS TIME, and I believe him, because he's only broken his oaths and served Sauron twice, so who am I to be suspicious when he asks for a set of important ancient relics?

3) Ok, here's your items back, bye! Um... I really have no reason to believe this guy isn't going to assemble these five items into a horrible destroy-the-world device or something. I only have his word that they belonged to him in the first place, I never asked anyone else about them, they don't have any ancient family crest or something on them... There's no sense of closure or feeling that this actually resolves anything. The quest for the items came out of the blue, you hand them over, and he's gone. It felt slapped together, unrelated to anything else except by the very thin thread of the name of the NPC that hands you the quest.

That quest just made me want to scream at the computer when put next to the resolution of Jajax's story arc, which was humorous and interesting, and actually felt like we got the resolution that Jajax deserved (even if it would have been cute to put him on the Inn League/Ale Association circuit). He's sailing off, his story is over unless we have an expansion that goes southward to Harad/Umbar or something and we meet him down in the southlands.

I found it rather amusing that a wood ship blocked a harbor... Which itself is made of stone and non burnable stuff... and that no one was like... hey, lets get this fire Rk to blow it up. >_>

Or fire fire arrows on it... Oh look, ship on fire, and now not blocking harbor. Better yet send me to said ship and talk to guy? WHAT... no... burn it!!!!

That was pretty much 1st quest to knock me out of game, and go.. "look this is just really stupid"


I do miss old questing style, reminded me alot of Morrowind. Even with quest tracker thou... some give you this huge area to go thru...and not give better directions.

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Originally Posted by Hurin

I've said for years that the "Quest Guide" feature was the quintessential moment where this game went full-on "easy mode". . . instead of having to read what NPCs were telling us, apply it, and find objectives using their directions, our navigational skills, the map, and some perseverance, we were instead given a feature where we click the NPC, click accept, rotate to point towards the magical arrow on our radar, and proceed forward. Questing can essentially be done on auto-pilot.

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Couldn't agree more. At the time, I suggested some kind of "iron man" mode that would reward the player with a title, an incentive not to use the quest-tracker, etc. I'd still like to see something like this.

My "easy mode" moment was when they started labelling *everything* with floaty-names. I still recall in the early days, trying to find potatoes amidst tall grass. You had to practically stand on top of them to see them.

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Originally Posted by Sito_Origami

My "easy mode" moment was when they started labelling *everything* with floaty-names. I still recall in the early days, trying to find potatoes amidst tall grass. You had to practically stand on top of them to see them.

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You never had to do this. Hit the delete key. You would select the potato or whatever, hit the shortcut for follow to get close enough, hit the shortcut for use to pick it up - activate it - whatever.

You could run around pressing delete. Or run a macro that pressed delete for you. All you had to do was watch to see if you got a lock on something interesting.

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Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

You never had to do this. Hit the delete key. You would select the potato or whatever, hit the shortcut for follow to get close enough, hit the shortcut for use to pick it up - activate it - whatever.

You could run around pressing delete. Or run a macro that pressed delete for you. All you had to do was watch to see if you got a lock on something interesting.

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Thank you for missing the point in such blinding fashion. I hope it didn't take too long for you to type that. Next time, use a macro?

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Originally Posted by Sito_Origami

Thank you for missing the point in such blinding fashion. I hope it didn't take too long for you to type that. Next time, use a macro?

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It will soon be 35,000 posts.

It's like white noise. Just not as educational.

This, unfortunately, is only getting worse. Am currently doing the Pelennor Aftermath quests. Absolutely no textual guidance whatsoever. . . just "go find. . ."

Turgon, Ingold, Furlong, (etc.). Excellent examples. But even IDing the bodies of the brothers could have benefited from a "the bodies of the fallen are being prepared for burial but a short walk northeast of this camp."

The nature of quests now: 1. Click Accept. Turn towards dot. Click glowing items. Turn towards dot. Click Finish.

And trying to complete quests the old fashioned way is hardly possible anymore. You pretty much have to use the "dot."

The designers are apparently assuming the "dot" will be used. So they don't bother to furnish textual directions like they used to prior to the "dot" or immediately upon its introduction (in keeping with the claim that it would be "optional").

--H

P.S. There is a time and a place for "just find this but I have no idea where it is" type quests (and other cues and clues can be used in those cases). . . this does not strike me as one of those time. Rather, it strikes me as designers assuming nobody has the quest tracker turned off.

well, on the one hand you are kind of right - some directional hints on the whereabouts and some thinking, and you wouldnt need a quest tracker.
On the other hand: if the quest giver knows so much detail, he usually wouldn't need you to pick the item up, unless it is some orc dirt or laundry he/she has no time to do oneself.
So the kind of vague references on where you are supposed to search make it kind of realistic to me, else any peasant would already have stumbled upon that awesome relic/whatever.
Thus a quest tracker, representing your supernatural edge as a hero, is ok to me, text references or no (besides, I personally wouldn't want to spend an entire evening just to complete one quest).
But yeah, it would be nice if the quest dialogues at least would pretend you read them in full, and offer something more substantial on the whereabouts..

I'm with DeadlyGazebo on this! Not all of my characters would actually <do> some of the stuff that is required to best succeed in the game. Every time I find myself having to do them ( because sometimes you can't really get around it), it breaks the story a little more for me. I care a little less each time about my character's story and about Middle Earth in general. I thought the quest tracker was a complete cheat the moment it came out. I realize, after years of using it ( because you just do!), that it is the tiny wrench in the works that is slowly deteriorating my immersion and fun.

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Originally Posted by Rapunzel666

On the other hand: if the quest giver knows so much detail, he usually wouldn't need you to pick the item up, unless it is some orc dirt or laundry he/she has no time to do oneself.
So the kind of vague references on where you are supposed to search make it kind of realistic to me, else any peasant would already have stumbled upon that awesome relic/whatever..

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Not asking for excruciating detail. Just, "in the forest to the west, along the mountains." In some cases, just a cardinal direction would be nice.

What we have quite often now is. . . nothing. And in the most egregious cases, we're told to look in "Western and Central Gondor" (etc.). There is *no* way some of these quests would ever be completed without the help of the in-game GPS.

--H

Questtexts seem to have no priority at all in this game anymore it seems. I totally feel with you all (besides Yula who just didn't get it).

A totally different problem, but still related to questtexts is, that they only fix obvious text errors months later, in most cases with the next big update. When everyone already played through the whole content so that everyone remembers it as 'another update with texts full of bugs'. Like there was anything that would be easier to fix than plain text. I just don't get it, why they allow people to test things and get like 100 german loca bugs for u19 in each of those 4 weeks of beta and not fix any of it and instead let everyone experience bad-written texts for months after which most players are done with it and remember it in exactly that state... thats just sad.

And yet it gets worse. . . throughout Mordor.

Example: Searching for the four Dwarf Expeditions in Mordor. . . "There are four expenditions. Find them.". . . is essentially all the written instructions given.

Those writing the quests no longer seen to assume that anyone is eschewing the Quest Quide functionality. As predicted. :(

Not using the Quest Guidance is no longer a realistic option. Actually, it ceased being one a long time ago. Which is a shame.

--H

I was amused, and appalled, at one of the quests into Nargroth, which had instructions in it's summary text to Find the skull, using the descriptions given in your quest log. Including the green text being in green. Just to make it stand out.

And then, just to add to the fiasco: while I was doing other quests in that dungeon, after I'd collected the skull (using the descriptions in the quest log!), somebody else sent me a tell, asking where to find it...

Rabokhor, high priest of the Order of the Eye, can be found in Dor Amarth.

You should find and defeat Rabokhor.

*sigh*. . . time to turn on the GPS! Because Dor Amarth is an entire region, and he ain't where you'd expect him to be.

:mad:

Old way. . .

"I am the Minstrel of Felegoth. But alas, I seem to have lost my harp, my goblet, my box, and my vase which I need to perform aright. I must have left them behind in my drunken stupor last night. When I partake of wine, I tend to frequent the gardens, the hunter's hall. . .

New way. . .

"I am the Minstrel of Felegoth. But alas, I seem to have lost my harp, my goblet, my box, and my vase which I need to perform aright. [Go to the gold rings on your map and find them.]"

It just keeps getting worse. :(

--H

P.S. Having said that, Felegoth is absolutely perfect! The world-builders deserve a raise!

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Originally Posted by Hurin

I've said for years that the "Quest Guide" feature was the quintessential moment where this game went full-on "easy mode". . . instead of having to read what NPCs were telling us, apply it, and find objectives using their directions, our navigational skills, the map, and some perseverance, we were instead given a feature where we click the NPC, click accept, rotate to point towards the magical arrow on our radar, and proceed forward. Questing can essentially be done on auto-pilot.

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Questing is supposed to be the easiest content in the game. After you finish mundane quests, you can do other things that require group coordination, skill, and the like.

I keep the tracker turned off as much as I can. Very immersion breaking.

"Hail, brave adventurer! Our homestead was attacked by orcs who came in the middle of the night. Could you find them and end this menace to my family? I know not from whence they came, but maybe if you follow that big glowing arrow in the sky..."

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Originally Posted by valkrye

Questing is supposed to be the easiest content in the game. After you finish mundane quests, you can do other things that require group coordination, skill, and the like.

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This misses the point. It's not about "easy" or "mundane". . . it's about engagement (or a total lack thereof). Once upon a time, you at least had to read the quests, and the quests contained pertinent information that you needed to heed and use. . . now, as I said (and you quoted), it's just, click NPC, click accept, turn towards arrow, travel, click, turn towards arrow, click [etc.], turn towards arrow. Click NPC. Click Finish.

What's worse, when the magic GPS was introduced, we were told it would be optional. But as predicted, they stopped providing the requisite quest text to many quests that made solving them without the magic GPS feasible. Meanwhile, we're all magically heading straight to our targets in the middle of all of Gondor's/Mordor's/Mirkwood's vastness. . . gosh we're lucky. :rolleyes:

Hello Everyone!

Heh, I was just reminded of a Bingo quest (if I remember correctly), that is in Wildermore (heh, if I remember correctly). It did not have an arrow, on purpose, and the items were fairly close to where you were, but I recall folks nearly screaming about having to blindly search all of Wildermore for these items (and where is our arrow?).

For myself, I do like to find things on my own when I can, but I'm pretty certain when I started nearly seven years ago the arrow was already there. i'm just used to it I guess. Now one thing the game still had in April of 2011 was "Fog of War" for the map. It was neat heading off towards an area and seeing mountains or lakes appear on the map, and you knew where you'd never explored, because that part of the map was blank. Then one day, after an update, the whole map was done. I still kind of pine for the old way (or hey, make it an option to have FoW).

Regards... Blunte

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Originally Posted by Blunte

I still kind of pine for the old way (or hey, make it an option to have FoW).

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They didn't remove FoW because people didn't like it. But because of technical limitations/problems with the tech. Or, possibly, because it was labor intensive to continue implementing it in each region (it also kept breaking, re-cloaking everyone's maps even after exploration).

So, making it an "option" isn't really, well, an option. ;)

Ah, I understand now. While I miss it, if it wasn't working properly, then it's probably best gone. I was pretty new when it stopped, so I hadn't had those problems yet.

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Hurin

They didn't remove FoW because people didn't like it. But because of technical limitations/problems with the tech. Or, possibly, because it was labor intensive to continue implementing it in each region (it also kept breaking, re-cloaking everyone's maps even after exploration).

So, making it an "option" isn't really, well, an option. ;)

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I'm updating the wiki as I play through, and some Dor Amarth quests have added directions since launch

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Originally Posted by Hurin

They didn't remove FoW because people didn't like it. But because of technical limitations/problems with the tech...

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The way I remember it, this is one of those things that everybody complained about until it went away. The Quest Guide was similarly asked-for (and then, sometimes, asked to go away). Once fog of war did disappear, though, it would have been very difficult to bring it back, so it's more or less gone for good these days.

MoL

The contrast of the coloured quest rings on the map is sometimes so bad, I can't see where to go anyway. Just circle the quests until you don't see where the current quest is supposed to lead you!