SHIELD Dwarf Runs through Moria Q&A - Notes on What Was Said

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Originally Posted by DanteIL

After 7+ years into the game, it is not like you are reinventing the wheel here when it comes to recipes and crafting and bartering and drops etc etc etc. I'm sure that you have tons of data from previous areas (or even on Bullroarer) on roughly how long it takes people to accumulate enough of a certain # of tokens or whatever, given the drop rates that you have implemented into the game, and how many people tend to turn these tokens in for specific items of a certain quality, etc etc.

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Did it ever occur to you that may be exactly why the prices end up being set where they are?

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

Did it ever occur to you that may be exactly why the prices end up being set where they are?

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No. The prices in Fangorn are high enough I never bothered to start grinding for a second recipe after getting the helm because I had no desire to do the content that much, especially for a single shot recipe without a guaranteed crit. I would very much like to see it lowered substantially or made a permanent recipe rather than a single shot. It will encourage willingness to do the repeatables more often rather than take one look and say "not worth my time". The only reason I even spent the 400 leaves on the Fanghorn helm is because I was mostly there by the time I finished my rep, since the quieting quests were bugged for me anyway. I ran the Hytbold scholar instance for scrolls rather than grind for 100 leaves for the newer ones, because it just wasn't interesting enough to run repeatedly for so little return. I didn't run any alts through because of the grind. I've had friends say they're not going to do the new area grind the first time through if it's even close to Fangorn numbers.

There has been enough feedback on Bullroarer and with the Fangorn recipes that I would like to see it lowered before release, not sometime afterwards when people are already burnt out and unwilling to go back.

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Originally Posted by Beaniemooch

No. The prices in Fangorn are high enough I never bothered to start grinding for a second recipe after getting the helm because I had no desire to do the content that much, especially for a single shot recipe without a guaranteed crit. I would very much like to see it lowered substantially or made a permanent recipe rather than a single shot. It will encourage willingness to do the repeatables more often rather than take one look and say "not worth my time". The only reason I even spent the 400 leaves on the Fanghorn helm is because I was mostly there by the time I finished my rep, since the quieting quests were bugged for me anyway. I ran the Hytbold scholar instance for scrolls rather than grind for 100 leaves for the newer ones, because it just wasn't interesting enough to run repeatedly for so little return. I didn't run any alts through because of the grind. I've had friends say they're not going to do the new area grind the first time through if it's even close to Fangorn numbers.

There has been enough feedback on Bullroarer and with the Fangorn recipes that I would like to see it lowered before release, not sometime afterwards when people are already burnt out and unwilling to go back.

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It's not just about availability and reward, it's about rarity. Clearly there are some things that they, for whatever reason, want to preserve as rarer and more difficult to obtain. People complain about the prices as though it should be a smorgasbord we all get to pick and choose from, but clearly that's not how it was designed. We are meant to make tough decisions about which items we want and we are meant to not be able to afford them all. If something isn't appealing enough to us, we won't put in the effort to get it. Those prices have remained where they are for a long time now, so it would seem that things are falling out about where they intended them to.

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Originally Posted by Beaniemooch

No. The prices in Fangorn are high enough I never bothered to start grinding for a second recipe after getting the helm because I had no desire to do the content that much, especially for a single shot recipe without a guaranteed crit. I would very much like to see it lowered substantially or made a permanent recipe rather than a single shot. It will encourage willingness to do the repeatables more often rather than take one look and say "not worth my time". The only reason I even spent the 400 leaves on the Fanghorn helm is because I was mostly there by the time I finished my rep, since the quieting quests were bugged for me anyway. I ran the Hytbold scholar instance for scrolls rather than grind for 100 leaves for the newer ones, because it just wasn't interesting enough to run repeatedly for so little return. I didn't run any alts through because of the grind. I've had friends say they're not going to do the new area grind the first time through if it's even close to Fangorn numbers.

There has been enough feedback on Bullroarer and with the Fangorn recipes that I would like to see it lowered before release, not sometime afterwards when people are already burnt out and unwilling to go back.

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I agree with Beaniemooch. The last token grind I did was for Hytbold. I skipped the Wildermore and Fangorn token grinds, and unless the prices are cut, I'll skip the Dol Amroth token grind too. (I don't run Epic Battles since I got through the Epic either). I value my time too much to spend it on an unreasonable amount of repetitive busywork.

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

Did it ever occur to you that may be exactly why the prices end up being set where they are?

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That's a rather astute observation.

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Originally Posted by Beaniemooch

There has been enough feedback on Bullroarer and with the Fangorn recipes that I would like to see it lowered before release, not sometime afterwards when people are already burnt out and unwilling to go back.

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I had this conversation yesterday with the dev working on making various adjustments. He's not sure what can be done or how fast, but is looking at it.

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Originally Posted by ShireDweller

I agree with Beaniemooch. The last token grind I did was for Hytbold. I skipped the Wildermore and Fangorn token grinds, and unless the prices are cut, I'll skip the Dol Amroth token grind too. (I don't run Epic Battles since I got through the Epic either). I value my time too much to spend it on an unreasonable amount of repetitive busywork.

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If there's something I want badly enough I'll grind for it, otherwise I'll move on to other content. I think that's likely how most people approach such things. I'm sure there's the odd "must have it all" person, just as there's the occasional "won't touch this just on principle" person, but most of us will fall somewhere in between.

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

...[*]Any news about cookies being lore-acceptable
Rowan - He’s not sure where cookies land on the spectrum of biscuits. So many conversations about colors of specific herbs, and getting bogged down in the details. They’ll look it up.
Sapience - He can personally recount getting coffee in the game. It involved going back through several passages of the books and saying “Look, it’s right here! They’re serving coffee!” There were a lot of discussions on both sides and they had to dig back into the lore for justification. So if they can find it in the lore, then maybe.
Rowan - But maybe cookies came from farther on. He’s not going to rule it out entirely ...

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I remember reading a passage on The Red Book about a troll that befriend a hobbit (yes! not all trolls were evil) & taugh that hobbit to cook many things specially sweet bakery. Maybe cookies where part of the recetary. ;)

Here is a segment:
The red book of Westmarch, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, Perry the Winkle, poem number 8

"...When full and tight were coat and skin,
they rested without speech,
till the old Troll said: 'I'll now begin
the baker's art to teach,
the making of beautiful cramsome bread,
of bannocks light and brown;...

...The Winkle a Baker great became,
as still is said in song;
from the Sea to Bree there went the fame
of his bread both short and long.
But it weren't so good as the cramsome bread;
no butter so rich and free,
as Every Thursday the old Troll spread
for Perry-the-Winkle's tea"

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

SHIELD Dwarf Run Q&A – Windfola

Please note: I am paraphrasing here. Anything said here is coming through my interpretation of what was said, and is subject to being corrected, so don't take all this as the final word.

If anyone who was present has any additions or corrections, feel free to post.

SHIELD Dwarf Run Q&A – Windfola

Video available here.

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This looks good to me. It was a pretty short run and a lot of very odd questions. I think everyone had one eye on the USA-Belgium match and one on the stream. So we were a bit light on questions.

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

If there's something I want badly enough I'll grind for it, otherwise I'll move on to other content. I think that's likely how most people approach such things. I'm sure there's the odd "must have it all" person, just as there's the occasional "won't touch this just on principle" person, but most of us will fall somewhere in between.

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When the content we're talking about is max-level content, there is no "other content" to move on to. Not in this game, at least.

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

Did it ever occur to you that may be exactly why the prices end up being set where they are?

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"Did it ever occur to you" is a condescending and passive-aggressive phrase that is often used to make someone feel bad for expressing a thought, and I'm sorry to see Sapience encourage this by calling this 'astute.' For the record, yes, it occurred to me, but what I was reacting to was the logic of implementing high barter prices with the foreknowledge that they might have to be adjusted due to feedback. We are always hearing so much about their vaunted 'data' on these forums -- this just seems a logical situation in which such data would be used. I understand that they probably would rather make the rewards initially less-obtainable than more-obtainable. My concern, though (again, pointing to Hytbold & Entwood), is that the adjustments often come too late, if at all.

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

It's not just about availability and reward, it's about rarity. Clearly there are some things that they, for whatever reason, want to preserve as rarer and more difficult to obtain. People complain about the prices as though it should be a smorgasbord we all get to pick and choose from, but clearly that's not how it was designed. We are meant to make tough decisions about which items we want and we are meant to not be able to afford them all. If something isn't appealing enough to us, we won't put in the effort to get it. Those prices have remained where they are for a long time now, so it would seem that things are falling out about where they intended them to.

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I think that the entirety of this quote should be prefaced with one gigantic disclaimer: "In my outsider interpretation of Turbine's internal decision processes..." This isn't to say that you are wrong, but none of us (players) have any privileged insight into exactly why things are designed the way they are, regardless of of any self-appointed forum roles.

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Originally Posted by Beaniemooch

No. The prices in Fangorn are high enough I never bothered to start grinding for a second recipe after getting the helm because I had no desire to do the content that much, especially for a single shot recipe without a guaranteed crit. I would very much like to see it lowered substantially or made a permanent recipe rather than a single shot. It will encourage willingness to do the repeatables more often rather than take one look and say "not worth my time". The only reason I even spent the 400 leaves on the Fanghorn helm is because I was mostly there by the time I finished my rep, since the quieting quests were bugged for me anyway. I ran the Hytbold scholar instance for scrolls rather than grind for 100 leaves for the newer ones, because it just wasn't interesting enough to run repeatedly for so little return. I didn't run any alts through because of the grind. I've had friends say they're not going to do the new area grind the first time through if it's even close to Fangorn numbers.

There has been enough feedback on Bullroarer and with the Fangorn recipes that I would like to see it lowered before release, not sometime afterwards when people are already burnt out and unwilling to go back.

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With Fangorn it was also very difficult to know if it was intentional or not for a long time. I think Fangorn is the only place I've seen where three different ixp runes were available at the same barter price - which is why I just always thought the were placeholder values that were never updated.

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Originally Posted by DanteIL

"Did it ever occur to you" is a condescending and passive-aggressive phrase that is often used to make someone feel bad for expressing a thought, and I'm sorry to see Sapience encourage this by calling this 'astute.' For the record, yes, it occurred to me, but what I was reacting to was the logic of implementing high barter prices with the foreknowledge that they might have to be adjusted due to feedback. We are always hearing so much about their vaunted 'data' on these forums -- this just seems a logical situation in which such data would be used. I understand that they probably would rather make the rewards initially less-obtainable than more-obtainable. My concern, though (again, pointing to Hytbold & Entwood), is that the adjustments often come too late, if at all.

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I have to agree with DanteIL because I see (him/her) as only expressing an opinion which is what forums are all about! It is hard to resist however, being arguementive or even condescending when OUR opinions do not match the opinions expressed by others. I know this because I am as quilty in this as anyone else! But I am trying to be fair and considerate to all sides of the issue and hopefully I can extend this attitude beyond the walls of this forum.

As to the matter of pricing these recipes I am neutral. I do however, empathize with people who have expressed concerns like DanteIL. I understand the need for rarity but there is a fine line that it seems is too often crossed when 'having fun' is sacrificed for the sake of keeping stuff rare or gated! Shouldn't "having fun" always be the priorty since that is precisely why most if not all of us are here? Just a thought...

Jorlan

It's always odd when people who allege an implied rudeness respond to that perceived rudeness with blatant, intentionally insulting rudeness.

If there was anything hurtful in my response, it was certainly not by design. I was making what was to me a rather bland observation. Too often we read into the statements of others, that which we expect to see. If you reread that same statement in multiple different ways, you can see that there could be any number of possible intentions behind it. In the interest of harmony it's generally better to give people the benefit of the doubt, or else ask for clarification.

In any case it sounds like the prices are being looked at, so there may be some relief in sight for those bothered by the issue.

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

It's always odd when people who allege an implied rudeness respond to that perceived rudeness with blatant, intentionally insulting rudeness.

If there was anything hurtful in my response, it was certainly not by design. I was making what was to me a rather bland observation. Too often we read into the statements of others, that which we expect to see. If you reread that same statement in multiple different ways, you can see that there could be any number of possible intentions behind it. In the interest of harmony it's generally better to give people the benefit of the doubt, or else ask for clarification.

In any case it sounds like the prices are being looked at, so there may be some relief in sight for those bothered by the issue.

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I see no "blatant, intentionally insulting rudeness" in the responses to your post.

The passive-aggressiveness of the phrase "did it ever occur to you" is well-known among people who concern themselves with communication theory.

Check out the well-regarded "Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense" books for examples of how to spot similar phrases, and other ways to express yourself if your intent is to be, as you put it, 'rather bland". I'm sure you wouldn't want to offend anyone again, intentionally or otherwise, in the future.

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Originally Posted by ShireDweller

I see no "blatant, intentionally insulting rudeness" in the responses to your post.

The passive-aggressiveness of the phrase "did it ever occur to you" is well-known among people who concern themselves with communication theory.

Check out the well-regarded "Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense" books for examples of how to spot similar phrases, and other ways to express yourself if your intent is to be, as you put it, 'rather bland". I'm sure you wouldn't want to offend anyone again, intentionally or otherwise, in the future.

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There are many aspects of speech and turns of phrase that people use negatively but, like I said, my intent was not what it was characterized to be. My statement was made with zero ill will. I don't think there's anything to be gained by spinning other people's comments that way. I could see if I was truly being inflammatory or rude but the statement was an innocuous one that didn't deserve the drama.

Let's just get back to the topic at hand.

This thread is for the discussion of the Q&As Frick and others are kind enough to transcribe. It is not for the discussion of how you think each other mean or don't mean something or how you interpret the intention of each others posts. Back on track so I can avoid having to clean this up.

Am I getting confused, shouldn't there be a SHIELD run like on now? I checked server time (says 2.30pm). I am in the UK, am I reading the info wrong somewhere?

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Originally Posted by Ranatuor_Erutron

Am I getting confused, shouldn't there be a SHIELD run like on now? I checked server time (says 2.30pm). I am in the UK, am I reading the info wrong somewhere?

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Yep, there was - it just ended awhile ago. It was only about a half hour or so. The transcript will be up soon.

Weird, I've had Twitch on this whole time, nothing. Maybe I've got an old link?

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Originally Posted by Ranatuor_Erutron

Weird, I've had Twitch on this whole time, nothing. Maybe I've got an old link?

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The correct link is here. It could be that you did have the incorrect one because I seem to recall it changing a long while back, pretty early in the TTHTI runs.

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

The correct link is here. It could be that you did have the incorrect one because I seem to recall it changing a long while back, pretty early in the TTHTI runs.

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Yep, entirely my own fault, I didn't use your link, used one in my favourites which is to Sapience's Twitch, not the LOTRO Twitch. I've been waiting here for it to come on lol. Oh dear, was going to ask about boats too! Bah!

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Originally Posted by Ranatuor_Erutron

Yep, entirely my own fault, I didn't use your link, used one in my favourites which is to Sapience's Twitch, not the LOTRO Twitch. I've been waiting here for it to come on lol. Oh dear, was going to ask about boats too! Bah!

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We got boats! Huge Ships! Big purple sails. We got it all!

I just want to give a HUGE shout out to Orodbril, who is doing German translations of the SHIELD transcripts for our fellow German players. Awesome, thanks so much!! :D

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

I just want to give a HUGE shout out to Orodbril, who is doing German translations of the SHIELD transcripts for our fellow German players. Awesome, thanks so much!! :D

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Thanks! I already did it partially with the Hobbit runs, but not until the 10th or something and the last 5ish runs I didn't had enough time for and it created a backlog, so I skipped them. So, I've been doing those kind of translations for a while now starting with BR-Release Notes since U12. Thank you for the shout-out! ;)

Orodbril

PS. @ Sapience I would prefer the current schedule, otherwise it could be hard to keep up, not only the translations, but also the transcripts, especially when they are as long as the Eldar one, which was much shorter in time than the Hobbitruns, but it hasn't really less questions than those.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

We got boats! Huge Ships! Big purple sails. We got it all!

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Hehe! We wants player boats (kinda like mounts) so we can goes sailings and fishings ;)