Feedback: New Player Tips for Guardians

[Drakojan]

as a lv 12 guard, what are ways to increase my aggro generation other than vexing blow, because i use that alot, but my lv 13 lm friend always steals my aggro, this is even when he gives me time to get aggro. I dunno if its cuz hes focusing on dps or not but, i dunno. help plz

[oldbustedjorn]

as a lv 12 guard, what are ways to increase my aggro generation other than vexing blow, because i use that alot, but my lv 13 lm friend always steals my aggro, this is even when he gives me time to get aggro. I dunno if its cuz hes focusing on dps or not but, i dunno. help plz

To be honest, there isn't much more you can do at L12 other than have your friend wait a bit. There also shouldn't be much content at L12 that requires a person to keep threat through the entire fight. As you get your shield skills, use them often to increase threat. In addition, don't neglect class deeds as many of them increase threat. For instance, there is a trait for vexing blow that makes it hit 3 targets (more with legacies) in 90 degree arc. Very helpful for building threat.

[SteinBrandir]

Many thanks to all for such good advice. First time playing a tank for someone who has always been ranged DPS in other games - I have decided to live dangerously for a wee while

[ScotiaMan]

I love this character so much and have tried most of them here.What are you guys suing as a rotation and I agree with allot that has been said in here.We tanks are not to worry so much about DPS but to keep the group safe and we are to have all of the aggro at all times and always and I say always protect your healer at all times.

[teviko]

READ READ READ your abilities!

Read them once.

Read them again.

Read them a third time, just to be sure.

Read them a fourth time if your bored.

There are a Guardians who don't know where their skills actually do other than: "The pointy end goes thata way --|------>

For me, at least, i find it impossible to believe that guards have trouble holding aggro post 60. With absolutely everything you need available to you by level 60, I just can't believe, other than lack of reading your skills, that guards fail, at anything.

Aside from learning how to build aggro, many guardians don't know what their opponent does or can do or what is capable of. As a Guardian, if you are not cognazant of everything around you, including multiple mobs, your positioning during a battle (turn bosses for frontal, plant your back against a wall if boss punts), what debuff a mob is going to put on you, which debuffs to cure in preference (if you have a fear and a wound, cure the fear with pots, and wound with Ignore the Pain). You must be aware of your life, your fellows lives, who the mobs are hitting, what skills to trigger in an emergency. There is alot more to do than hit 121212121312131 or some #### like that. You must know, react and be the *leader* of your group. After all, the group will be looking to you to run into a group of mobs and pull them, if you are not sure of what to do, figure it out fast, because the group is not going to assume you rolled up your guard yesterday.

If all goes wrong in a group, you will be the first to be scrutinized (even though we all know it was the hunters/champs fault). There is so much you as a tank need to manage that one little mistake will cost a group a wipe (sometimes). And its because of teh many things we need to be aware of that we are the first to be blamed. And if all goes right and at the end of the day people say "great group everyone" they are really saying: "Hey! That guard did ok! We lived (or didn't wipe as badly as they imagined)."

Very rarely we get thanked. Take what praise you can get. Because from 30-60 hunters and champions will make you cry. Groups are almost always a diverse mixture of high and low level, with you often being at the low end and your DPS being the higher end. Hold tight, take some xanax and keep pushing through, once at 60, life eases up a bit and at 65, even hunters will be less intimidating.

[Drakojan]

Most people tell me that once you get to higher levels, guards get more fun, but right now I dislike them so much, so I deleted mines in favor of a Runekeepr and a Champion. Some people told me that was a bad idea but after only having 3 aggro skills, one of them needing to block to use, at level 24, it kinda bothered me. Well, I like my Champion anyways so .

[teviko]

Most people tell me that once you get to higher levels, guards get more fun, but right now I dislike them so much, so I deleted mines in favor of a Runekeepr and a Champion. Some people told me that was a bad idea but after only having 3 aggro skills, one of them needing to block to use, at level 24, it kinda bothered me. Well, I like my Champion anyways so .

My first class was a champion, and I love them, and it really helped me to prepare to be a guardian.

At level 24, you haven't even really matured as a GUardian yet, what everyone told you was true. And worst off, if you only have 3 aggro skills at 24, you didn't trait harrasser (or didn't bother to cmplete the deed). Yes, one of them (2-3 really, at your level) require the block chain. This makes me think you went 2H (OP stance) to level up. You should really only do this after level 30 or so when your comfortable knowing what skills generate threat and your place in a group. OP stance is not for groups, its for solo play, and it in itself is pretty powerful. I could take out 3-4 mobs at a time in ND in OP stance. It was fun.

Shield Swipe, while single target, still generates threat. As does shield taunt, as does Bash, and shield smash (gained later through legendary traits). If it s ashield skill, it generates threats. Again, learn and read what your skills do, you'll find you are missing quite a few things.....

I'd re-roll your guard once you get a handle on teh champ. It will be an eye opener on just how *durable* you are.

[Drakojan]

I'll think about it thanks. I only went overpower when I soloed, and the only deed I completed was the Sting one, and i did have only 3 aggro skills. ShieldBash (need to block), Challenge (was my favorite skill despite CD), and that other one where i hit them with my shield. My friend told me RKs got nerfed bad a while ago but I didn't know about it, can someone tell me which is better RK vs. Warden vs. Guardian.
Like how complex they are, easy to learn, hard to master, stuff like that.
I like to pew pew stuff before they even get near me so I'm thinking thats RK but I dunno. I also want a class thats wanted in groups all the time. (Like a hunter, even though there are billions of them, just go in LFF, 35 Hunter wants to do GA, invite in like 2 seconds )

And no, I'm not a ####### :P. Ok maybe I sort of am. Well... I'm trigger crazy.
I'm a trigger crazy hunt-verysmartperson.

[teviko]

This thread is about tips for new guardians. And I will state again.

READ WHAT YOUR ABILITIES DO!

Drak, you were missing about 3 abilities that get aggro. PLus, you are missing about 2 or 3 almost required traits. (I mentioned harrasser).

And Drak, I'd stick to the hunter if I were you.

[Drakojan]

About sticking to hunter, I'm def doing that. But I was wondering if there are any classes that you think I would enjoy, or that you enjoy? And I guess I did have more aggro skills but didn't read as you said, and I'll most likely try Guard again at a later time. Right now trying to get Burn (hunt) through Book 4 and into Angmar.

[Viridian82]

This thread has been great. I have to say that after usually playing a dps role in most mmo's (and in a text-based game a buffer/raiser of dead.), I decided to try a guardian.. AND I LOVE IT.

The only problem is, is that I am so afraid that I will let people down in a fellowship by failing utterly at tanking. I don't want to get yelled at, but I know eventually (I am at level 27 and have managed to not do a GB run...yet.) I will have to tank.

I have practiced in skirmishes with my shield bashes, swipe, taunts and I think I do an okay job. My question is, what do I do if I fail utterly at tanking? And what should I be aware of?

What I have gotten from this thread so far is.

My job is threat, not dps -- Check!
Face mobs away from her fellows -- Check!
If you are in a group with a warden take to off-tank to protect squishy healers -- Check!

So, any other advice?

[Vysion34]

So, any other advice?

Understand that you will fail before you succeed.

The first time I ever tanked a level 60 instance in Moria with a pug group, the group disbanded when the leader said "We wont be able to do it with this group.", I knew he actually meant we wouldn't be able to do it with me tanking it.

But I learned from my mistakes and knew I would get better. Not to boast but now my friends in-game come to me when they need a tank to run an instance. I have even had puggers tell me I was good at tanking with my Guardian.

If you're determined to get better, you will.

[teviko]

This thread has been great. I have to say that after usually playing a dps role in most mmo's (and in a text-based game a buffer/raiser of dead.), I decided to try a guardian.. AND I LOVE IT.

The only problem is, is that I am so afraid that I will let people down in a fellowship by failing utterly at tanking. I don't want to get yelled at, but I know eventually (I am at level 27 and have managed to not do a GB run...yet.) I will have to tank.

I have practiced in skirmishes with my shield bashes, swipe, taunts and I think I do an okay job. My question is, what do I do if I fail utterly at tanking? And what should I be aware of?

What I have gotten from this thread so far is.

My job is threat, not dps -- Check!
Face mobs away from her fellows -- Check!
If you are in a group with a warden take to off-tank to protect squishy healers -- Check!

So, any other advice?

Don't be afraid. I know that sounds counter productive to what you said about being afraid, but that is not what I mean.

You wear heavy armor, only two other classes will do that and at those levels, are no where near competent to tank, so don't be afraid to just prance right into that horde of mobs and hit challenge. Once they are all hitting you, *trust* in your healer/s and do *your* job. If you die, its not through any fault of your own so don't stress over dying, just concentrate on performing your role and TANK.

IT's like the old joke goes: HOw do you get to Carnegie Hall?

Practice.

And read your skills and what they do.

Read them.

[ismokerocks]

Positioning, positioning, positioning!

One of the pillars of being a good guardian is all about player positioning relative to the mob. In a group, you want to face the mob away from the group. This way any frontal AoE the mob does is only hitting you the tank, and the fellow will only get damaged by full 360 AoEs.

A nice side effect of this, is that the fellowship (especially burglars) will do more damage to a mobs backside.

I do this on my guard for a different reason (using my frontal AoEs,) but you make a better argument for this tactic.

*hopes burglar friend logs on in the near future*

[Zonflux]

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...80#post5764580

A post that I made giving my perspective on threat and aggro management.

[Nemulas]

Something i wrote a year ago for absolute beginnners - most of it still applies. If I'd known this when i first started, it would have saved so much trouble :

Tanking 101
-----------

Your absolute priority in a grouped situation is to protect the healer .

Minstrels and Rune Keepers have an almost unlimited supply of heals they can cast to keep people alive. However, they cannot cast heals while moving and getting hit interrupts the casting. Captains can also heal, they can do so while running and can't be interrupted. However captains cannot heal themselves.

Every mob has his own agro table, a list of people they are in combat with, and a number denoting how much they hate each person. Doing damage to that mob , or taunting that mob, increases his hate for you. However, healing generates threat on every mob the group is in combat with, even if they are rooted, stunned, or a long way away.

example -

Elite boss hate table

1. guardian 1000 hate
2. hunter 800 hate
3. minstrel 400 hate

Melee add hate table

1. guardian 600 hate
2. minstrel 400 hate
3. hunter 0 hate

Ranged add hate table

1. minstrel 400 hate
2. guardian 0 hate
3. hunter 0 hate


In this case the boss and the melee add are attacking the guardian. The enemy archer is 15m away, out of range of the guardian's skills, so he has no hate for the guardian. The hunter is not attacking him , so he has no hate for him either, so he defaults to attacking the minstrel, who is generating threat by healing.

So, as a tank you need to spread your threat across all the mobs, so that even the ones no-one is hitting do not go for your healer . This may mean you generate less threat on the group's primary target, and it might peel off and start hitting the hunter. This is a price worth paying. Although they are not really meant to tank, a minstrel can easily keep a hunter alive while the boss beats on him, and heal you in their spare time, provided you keep the rest of the trash away so the minnie can work uninterrupted.


Ranged Mobs
==========

These guys are a problem. If they are too far away from you, then you won't build any threat and they will target your healer.

1. the best approach is to have a loremaster or burglar stun him at the start of the fight. Planning = win

2. alternatively , drag the melee mobs over to the ranged guy and fight him in melee with the others. This can be difficult, it's harder to generate threat while running and if the group don't ease up, they might pull the agro off you.

3. get a hunter to range tank it. Better it shoots at the hunter than have it interrupt your healer.


AOE mobs
=======

Some elites do frontal AOE damage - basically, all trolls. If you are fighting trolls, tell your fellowship to stand behind them at all times, anyone stood in front will take damage even if they dont have agro.

eg. Guardian is doing a perfectly good job holding agro on a troll, but 2 champions are stood alongside the guardian, taking a beating. Your minstrel has to heal 3 times as much damage (actually more than three times as much, as champions cannot block evade or parry in fervour, and have a -30% incoming healing penalty). Get behind them and hit them, champs!

eg. Guardian is holding agro on a group of 4 mobs. hunter pulls agro on one of them ( a troll) and it runs up to him. Minstrel is stood next to hunter. Minstrel starts getting interrupted by the aoe hits, group wipes. Minstrel or hunter needs to move!

Stunned Mobs
==========

Stunned mobs are not being hit, so they tend to agro the healer. So, unless it is a particularlly troublesome ranged mob, healer, or summoner, don't stun unless you have to. If you have a stunned mob, bear in mind you can still build agro on them with shield taunt and fray the edge without waking them. When you get your agro copy skill (engage) you can also use this on a stunned mob without breaking the mezz.


Skill Usage
========

Your optimum tanking skills are completely different from the optimum soloing ones.

Your main priority is skills that generate aoe threat. After that, skills that generate aoe damage (if fighting multiple mobs). After that, skills that generate single target threat.

Skills that do good single target damage, and self heals, come way down the list. These are mainly for solo.

Insta-cast skills -

Shield Blow, Fray the Edge - nice single target threat
Vexing blow (with harasser trait) modest aoe threat

block reactives -

Litany of Challenge (level 60 ) is just awesome AOE threat. Before level 60, you will need to use Shield Swipe to unlock -

Shield Taunt - nice aoe threat skill (8m range)

Parry Reactives

Whirling Retaliation always. All you other parry skills are single target dps. This is a modest dps aoe and also a threat transfer. So it's the only parry skill to use when tanking.


Don't forget to use guardian's ward every 10 seconds. This buffs your block and parry rate, reducing incoming damage and giving you access to your reactive skills more often.

Blowing Cooldowns
==============

Challenge.

This is a force taunt. It forces 3 opponents to attack you for 10 seconds, regardless of who is actually top of their hate list. It does not actualyl generate any threat by itself. So don't spam it keep it for an important moment

1) at the start of the fight

forcing 3 opponents to attack you for 10 seconds will unlock some block/parry skills, which helps you to build threat. Should not be needed if the group lets you hit the mobs for a few seconds before wading in though.

2) when the healer is getting hit

keep your eye on the minstrel's health bar. It should be full at all times, if it is not, something is hitting them, and you need to do somethig about it fast!

Guardian's Pledge
=============

A newbie error i used to make was to keep this skill for when my health was getting low. In practice, it only ever got low because my healer was dead.

Far better to pop this skill when you feel you healer might be in danger of drawing agro by healing too much. Example, while you are fighting a pair of mobs, when a patrol of 3 mobs comes along the road and agros the group. It's going to take a few seconds to build good agro, so pop pledge to stop your healer getting agro in the transition and being killed.


Target Switching
=============

This is very important , especially in the early days when you don't have many aoe skills.

You can do it manually by clicking on the mob with a mouse, or by using the [next target] hotkey.

An easier method is to assign the [select nearest target] key to [tab] or something near you W A S D movement keys, then strafe from side-to-side or circle around your minstrel, tapping [select nearest target] with the same hand you use for the movement buttons. This guarantees you hit all of the mobs at some point. The drawback is server lag dulls the speed of the target swithcing sometimes.

Go to combat options/target of my target and ensure it is ticked. This means you can see who the mob you are targeting is agroed on , which gives you an idea of how well you are doing.

Practice these skills on some low level mobs, it could save your life one day.


Backpedaling
==========

If you have agro on multiple melee mobs they will tend to form a circle around you. You cannot block or parry attacks from behind which means more damage and fewer reactives, and they aren't getting hit by your frontal aoe attacks either. So , keep moving backwards, you can even use obstacles like trees or pillars to funnel them in front of you.

As you move, the currently targeted mob could find himself at the back of this crowd of mobs that want to see you, preventing you from firing melee skills, or causing your charcter to make pointless ranged autoattacks that miss because you aren't standing still. De-equip your bow or go to combat options and uncheck "skills can enable default attack" to prevent this. However, you should also be trying to change target so that you are targted on whoever is now closest to you as well.

DPS Assist
========

Consider the situation where the group is fighting 5 mobs. You are target switching and using aoe rather than single target threat skills, so all 5 of these mobs have more hate for you than they do for the healer. However, you have 3 hunters, all shooting a different mob.

The result -

1. The mobs take longer to die , your group is fighting 5 mobs for longer.

2. Because you are spreading your threat thinner, you can't hold agro over a hunter going full bore. So each of the mobs being targeted by a hunter, peels off to the hunter. Now 3 mobs are being tanked by hunter, and only 2 by guardian. This increases the damage incoming to the group.

What is needed is for the group to nominate a "DPS assist". One of the hunters chooses the mob to the hit, and all the other hunters target the DPS assistant. If they have "target forwarding" turned on in their combat options panel, their shots will automatically target his target.

so, now we have 4 mobs on a guardian, and one going to the hunter. As one of the hutners crits, the mob will waste time running after that one, then change direction again when a different hunter pulls his agro with a critted shot. And he won't live long. The remaining mobs will stay on the guardian. The guardian will have built plenty of agro on the remaining mobs while the first was being killed, so they won't peel off.

[Lord_Calix]

@Nemulas

Rep added. =D

[Jullandar]

Recently tanking skirmish raids I have found that we seem to have a clique of "Challenge" tanks. Like Nemulas has pointed out, Challenge is not a skill to spam every time it comes out of cooldown. That is especially important when sharing tanking duties with another tank and when tanking several boss-type mobs that are best kept apart.

I've had several occasions lately where the other tanks have pressed Challenge at the most unfortunate times and brought several AoE bosses straight into the group causing a nice bit of havoc. Same with trash pulls - I've been happily tanking the lot until the other guard does a pointless Challenge, forcing all mobs turn to him for the duration and then back to me (because they're not actually working enough on generating aggro).

Lately I've just given up in such cases and switched to OP instead, until a shield is needed again. I've thrown protection on the other tank and in most cases I'm still getting the mobs back on me when their Challenge wears off. It seems OP tanking is still somewhat possible, except against the minority of players who actually know how to DPS. Post-RoI I've seen maybe 2-3 champs and 1-2 hunters who have been able to make life hard for a tank (shield or OP).

Every guardian worth their salt should take pride in generating real aggro, instead of using Challenge at every possibility.

[Happyoldguy]

I am a level 24 Guardian and I don't have, and can't find, some of the skills mentioned here.

I don't have Catch a Breath, Shield Taunt, Challenge, Thrust, or Whirling Retaliation. My trainer does not have them listed.

Where did I go wrong?

[Crazydwarf]

I am a level 24 Guardian and I don't have, and can't find, some of the skills mentioned here.

I don't have Catch a Breath, Shield Taunt, Challenge, Thrust, or Whirling Retaliation. My trainer does not have them listed.

Where did I go wrong?

Three possible issues I can imagine.
But I'm no veteran exactly so I may be way off.

1. Some trainers in the really low level zones, such as Archet, may not be able to teach you skills above level 8 or 10 or so.
Make sure you are talking to a trainer in a major town such as Bree or Thorins hall.

2. You might not be high enough level to train them.
There is a box at the top you can check to show/hide untrainable skills, if you have them shown they should say wich level they become available.

3. They might be gated by a class quest wich usually comes in the mail and points you to talk to a specific trainer.
Other trainers will as I recall also give you the same quest, wich would make this letter irrelevant.

[Elinnea]

At level 24 you should have all of those skills already. You can see the Guardian's skills, along with the levels at which they can be trained, at this site: http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Guardian.

Make sure you go to a trainer in a main town like Bree, as the poster above me says, and have selected the Active Skills tab in the training screen. If you've been playing without all those skills, I think you'll find it makes a huge difference when you get them!

[Crazydwarf]

Also make sure you havent trained them allready !

You can open you character sheet in-game by pressing "C" or clicking on the small icon on the bar.
From there you should be able to navigate to the skills tab (located below the image of your character) and there you can see what skills you posess.
It may be that you trained them, but they didnt show up on your bars due to lack of empty spaces and somesuch.

[Jusia]

I couldnt agree more with the former posts "read skills", "practise" , "test" and "threat beats dps"

I think there is one thing to remember for all new guards. Before you really get a fair chance to test your skills you need to get lev 56-58 and do the treasury and Grand Stairs instances in Moria. I know there are other pre moria areas where fs quests need guards buth truth is its very seldom you get to do them without a lev 75 in the group and then it gets hard for you to outtank them as your more than 20 levels lower. So get your tank up there. Get your deeds done. Do the class quests, learn the techniques and use some 2hander to get it going faster now and then. The "REAL" tanking first begins at end game. That is where tanks really are needed. If there is an unbalance in the game that is it. The Guards is really first needed in end game. Heals and DPS are more useful trough the whole LOTRO content. Never the less i love tanking :-) and im still learning..... (hmm)

[Spasmistic]

Give the Guardian a threat transfer skill so that off tanks such as wardens take some damage

[BitzM]

Good advice everyone.

A few things I would add:
Remember to put protection on your healer when you get it.

If all goes wrong in a group, you will be the first to be scrutinized (even though we all know it was the hunters/champs fault).

This is so true. Don't be afraid to be the "leader" and ask hunters especially to hold off a bit at first. They will thank you for it. Champions are not usually a problem because they have heavy armor and can take some damage and not die but Hunters and I would add Runekeepers can't either.

My best advice would be to encourage your group to let you or the main assist/off-tank keep aggro. If anyone else is getting attacked it cuts into your heals. A healer can keep you alive if you keep them alive. If you are trying to get aggro from a "squishy" (medium and light armor classes) that means you might not be able to keep guys off the healer. If "squishies" are being attacked it means they are taking a lot of damage per hit and needing even more healing. This means less healing for you. Do yourself and the healer a favor and encourage the "squishies" to not get aggro.

Whirling Retaliation gets and ability (I think) that transfer aggro from fellows to you IF they are within 10M. HUnters usually attack farther away than that. If the boss doesn't have AoE attacks encourage your fellowship to stay closer, this will heal with your AoE Threat skills to if they do pull aggro.

I have run 6 man groups were the Tank and main assist are the only ones taking damage and it made the whole run easy because the healer only had two people to heal and could keep up with no problem.

I would also recommend looking at Parry/Evade/Block bonuses. If you are tanking these will add up way faster than a little bit of in-combat morale regen or +50 morale. I'd take high stats in these areas over more health any day. The less a healer heals the less aggro they generate, the easier your job it. (Except for the Hunters and DPSing Runekeepers)

I also like to quick slot my shied, 1h weapon, 2h weapon, Overpower stance, and my Aggro Stance (Guardian's Threat).

Once you Finish A Shield Maiden Song using Guardian's Threat is a big bonus. You can't beat the +20% perceived threat and you can get more through traits.

You should also be the first to attack. This means you need to be in front which makes you a leader. Being a leader and tanking with your guardian go hand in hand. Leaders can't be afraid to lead by giving advice and encouraging the group. This includes telling the hunters to layoff the attacks so they don't die. This can be accomplished by encouraging the healer to only heal you and the main assist/off-tank.

LAST POINT: Many players don't understand threat and aggro. As a Tank you need to and you may also need to help explain it to the group so you can beat that challenging boss.