So Orion.. Wardens?

[ANewMachine]

because Wardens are built around Gambits and any way where we would preform our roles without using them would go against the class design.

people need to stop asking for one-button skills, we're not going to get them and if we do I think NS is a prime example of what we'd end up with.

That's not entirely fair. NS needs to be a one-button skill because it needs a cooldown, or tanking and aggro becomes ridiculously easy so that no one would miss the Masteries because we'd only use NS anyway. Gambits, as of yet, don't support any cooldowns, so it needed to be a one-button skill. The problem is that Turbine apparently don't think that a long cooldown was enough to contain it, so they put stupid restrictions on it to boot.

[AltariasEU]

We are really being shunned here... Since basically the release of this class, none of the devs have actually listened to what us warden players have to say or suggest.

The only positive thing I can think of is 5 morale per vitality and the new combat system (auto attacks tick while in other animation).. These were not even aimed towards wardens specifically.

The title of this thread is pretty accurate to what most of us are thinking.. what about us?

[geoboy]

That's not entirely fair. NS needs to be a one-button skill because it needs a cooldown, or tanking and aggro becomes ridiculously easy so that no one would miss the Masteries because we'd only use NS anyway. Gambits, as of yet, don't support any cooldowns, so it needed to be a one-button skill. The problem is that Turbine apparently don't think that a long cooldown was enough to contain it, so they put stupid restrictions on it to boot.

Precisely, if it needs to be on a long CD, I don't want it. The thing I like most about gambits is that all my tools are available to me all the time. Bad enough watching the CDs on jav skills and masteries.

[Odin_of_Freyr]

I don't understand why people (not just wardens here) want all kinds of buffs, but aren't willing to give up something in return. I think that's the key, depending on how you slot your traits, you should have to give something up to get buffed in another area. That's the problem with wardens, slotting specific ways never makes the warden stand out above and beyond other classes. Yes, wardens can slot diffferent ways to improve a specific playstyle, but I think each traitline could use a revamp and buffs/nerfs/whatever to make it stand out in a more pronounced manner.


I'm saying that people have to be willing to give stuff up to get improvements especially if the class is not terrible to begin with, and I think wardens are pretty solid. I just think they lack that specific ability to fill a main role in raids that no other class can fill as well or better.

[geoboy]

I don't understand why people (not just wardens here) want all kinds of buffs, but aren't willing to give up something in return. I think that's the key, depending on how you slot your traits, you should have to give something up to get buffed in another area. That's the problem with wardens, slotting specific ways never makes the warden stand out above and beyond other classes. Yes, wardens can slot diffferent ways to improve a specific playstyle, but I think each traitline could use a revamp and buffs/nerfs/whatever to make it stand out in a more pronounced manner.


I'm saying that people have to be willing to give stuff up to get improvements especially if the class is not terrible to begin with, and I think wardens are pretty solid. I just think they lack that specific ability to fill a main role in raids that no other class can fill as well or better.

Lol, have you seen the proposed changes to creeps? How about the minstrel update? The class needs an adjustment for 6 and 12 man content. Meaning it's already subpar. There isn't a reason I can think of that you need to nerf one aspect of the class because another aspect needs a buff.

The warden is more or less unchanged since launch in moria, aside from gamewide shifts, since launch there hasn't been a reason to bring a warden instead of a guard to a raid. Other classes have had their buffs and nerfs and times of demand and rejection, but wardens have always been the last picked. The nature of raiding is such that there is less overlap in what people need to do - more specialization, and because, as you said, wardens don't do any one thing better than anyone else, there will always be another class that will be picked over a warden in a given role. When something is broken, you fix it. Buffing/nerfing is to maintain balance. There is no balance.

/rant.

[Murtanion]

I think the most important thing to note here is actually nothing.

Developer feedback/information.

There have been very minimal changes or new skills to the Warden class. Comparatively to Rune-keepers, who were released at the same time as Warden's, we have gotten next to nothing. There have been many new skills, trait revisions, and legacy tweaks for Rune-keepers. Warden's got Unerring Strike and Never Surrender.

It is pretty obvious this class is not the major focus of development. Especially when Warden's are so glaringly inefficient in any role that they play compared to other classes, except maybe corruption removal.

[qannadi]

Well, fortunately after 2 pages of Guardian whining, Orion posted on their thread. It does clarify to an extent that Champions are NOT suddenly going to be some combination of ultra-high-DPS + ultra-high-survivability + ultra-high-threat that will make Guardians useless. But it certainly doesn't address wardens. He does at the end say that he's pushing champion information first, so presumably we will hear about ours later, but obviously... Nothing for us just yet.

[Orion]

Fear not!

I have plans for Wardens too. There is not a lot of information that I can put out now, but the main issues that I can see with Wardens are as follows:

(Spear) DPS: There is an optimal gambit. One. There needs to be other options for dealing damage.

(Taunt) Tank: Tank training wheels. Most everything deals with drawing aggro. Morale taps will likely get adjusted to allow for raid tanking. (This gambit line is one that I am going to keep looking at because, in the distant future, it might warrant an overhaul.)

(Shield) Tank: Preferred tanking, very solid line, good skills...minor changes here.

Things that are on the table:

• Allowing the reduction in power for gambits to also apply to the masteries.
  Making Determination more attractive by adding some power regen and increases crit chance reduction
  Addition of effects that will allow for some Gambits to replace themselves when they are used (ex. Completing a Power Attack while under this effect would immediately fill the gambit bar with Spear, Shield, Taunt) All Gambit lines would benefit from this, the different stances would determine which gambit is altered.
  Enhancements to some of the Way of the Spear Traits/Trait Set bonuses
  Enhancements to some of the Way of the Shield Traits/Trait Set bonuses
  Enhancements to some of the Way of the Fist Traits/Trait Set bonuses

One thing that I will be up front about is Masteries. They are not likely to be turned into skills at any time soon.

[geoboy]

(Spear) DPS: There is an optimal gambit. One. There needs to be other options for dealing damage.

Sounds good.

(Taunt) Tank: Tank training wheels. Most everything deals with drawing aggro. Morale taps will likely get adjusted to allow for raid tanking. (This gambit line is one that I am going to keep looking at because, in the distant future, it might warrant an overhaul.)

I don't see where this is going, but I'm curious.

(Shield) Tank: Preferred tanking, very solid line, good skills...minor changes here.

Good.

Things that are on the table:

• Allowing the reduction in power for gambits to also apply to the masteries.
  Making Determination more attractive by adding some power regen and increases crit chance reduction
  Addition of effects that will allow for some Gambits to replace themselves when they are used (ex. Completing a Power Attack while under this effect would immediately fill the gambit bar with Spear, Shield, Taunt) All Gambit lines would benefit from this, the different stances would determine which gambit is altered.
  Enhancements to some of the Way of the Spear Traits/Trait Set bonuses
  Enhancements to some of the Way of the Shield Traits/Trait Set bonuses
  Enhancements to some of the Way of the Fist Traits/Trait Set bonuses

I do like the idea of chaining up gambit tiers, sounds awesome.
Crit defense with determination sounds good. Dump the icmr altogether, for all I care.
I can't stress enough that fist needs a major rework.

One thing that I will be up front about is Masteries. They are not likely to be turned into skills at any time soon.

At least you're all being upfront about this.

[Malephor]

Interesting. Less than what I hoped for, but more than I expected.

(Taunt) Tank: Tank training wheels. Most everything deals with drawing aggro. Morale taps will likely get adjusted to allow for raid tanking. (This gambit line is one that I am going to keep looking at because, in the distant future, it might warrant an overhaul.)

Eh...distant. Disappointing. I think overhauling the fist line could be the quickest/best way to address wardens' problems.

[forceofnone]

That's a very interesting description of the gambit lines. Odd that there isn't anything about the trait lines except that some enhancements are likely for going deep. Fist trait line needs an overhaul not just enhancements. Nobody uses it at all for anything. Isn't that the standard Turbine has used in all the other updates for when an overhaul is warranted? Of course, if I read this wrong and it is the fist trait line that might get an overhaul in the distant future, I can only say that next Thursday seems distant enough.....

[disappearingone]

Fear not!

I have plans for Wardens too. There is not a lot of information that I can put out now, but the main issues that I can see with Wardens are as follows:

(Spear) DPS: There is an optimal gambit. One. There needs to be other options for dealing damage.

(Taunt) Tank: Tank training wheels. Most everything deals with drawing aggro. Morale taps will likely get adjusted to allow for raid tanking. (This gambit line is one that I am going to keep looking at because, in the distant future, it might warrant an overhaul.)

(Shield) Tank: Preferred tanking, very solid line, good skills...minor changes here.

Things that are on the table:

• Allowing the reduction in power for gambits to also apply to the masteries.
  Making Determination more attractive by adding some power regen and increases crit chance reduction
  Addition of effects that will allow for some Gambits to replace themselves when they are used (ex. Completing a Power Attack while under this effect would immediately fill the gambit bar with Spear, Shield, Taunt) All Gambit lines would benefit from this, the different stances would determine which gambit is altered.
  Enhancements to some of the Way of the Spear Traits/Trait Set bonuses
  Enhancements to some of the Way of the Shield Traits/Trait Set bonuses
  Enhancements to some of the Way of the Fist Traits/Trait Set bonuses

One thing that I will be up front about is Masteries. They are not likely to be turned into skills at any time soon.

sounds good. Where do i sign up?

Not really where i thought things were going to head but sounds good.

Ohh yeah, is there any word on some sort of aggro management tool or dump?

[Antrius]

One thing that I will be up front about is Masteries. They are not likely to be turned into skills at any time soon.

Wow, now that is dissapointing. As long as the other changes make up for it, I can live with that I guess.

[Faithbringer]

No, matter what they do to the other traits, chances are I won't get to experience very many of the changes since I have three traits PERMANENTLY eating space in every single build I put together. Masteries as traits for good .... ugh.

[qannadi]

Thanks Orion! Definitely an interesting teaser, and some really interesting ideas. Glad you're upfront about masteries- it IS a little disappointing because it wedges us in so tightly on class traits, but I think depending on how your replacement gambits proposal works, it might allow us to unslot a mastery and still build quickly. That might free us up a little to trait a little more freely. Certainly a good idea.

[Deathbix]

Fist needs a complete overhaul, as it stands I don't know a single warden who traits it aside from experimenting.

The only thing I really ask for is viability in raids, and that won't happen unless we get an Engage type skill at the very least, especially with new raids, if a guardian dies, champ picks up aggro then the guardian engages when rebuffed - the fight can be recovered. If a Warden dies, he's dead, doesn't matter how much you rebuff, it's going to take a long time for you to climb back to the top to secure aggro - the fight most likely won't be recovered.

[Mysterion]

I have plans for Wardens too. There is not a lot of information that I can put out now, but the main issues that I can see with Wardens are as follows:

Great to hear some feedback, thanks.

(Spear) DPS: There is an optimal gambit. One. There needs to be other options for dealing damage.

WT - is that the one - can't wait to hear more

(Taunt) Tank: Tank training wheels. Most everything deals with drawing aggro. Morale taps will likely get adjusted to allow for raid tanking. (This gambit line is one that I am going to keep looking at because, in the distant future, it might warrant an overhaul.)

I really like AOE leaching - Looking forward to more information, very intriguing. I never understood the fears anyway, cower would be preferred to mobs running away from me.

(Shield) Tank: Preferred tanking, very solid line, good skills...minor changes here.

Good - may be scale the HoTs considering 8k morale pools are very common

Things that are on the table:

• Allowing the reduction in power for gambits to also apply to the masteries.
  Making Determination more attractive by adding some power regen and increases crit chance reduction
  Addition of effects that will allow for some Gambits to replace themselves when they are used (ex. Completing a Power Attack while under this effect would immediately fill the gambit bar with Spear, Shield, Taunt) All Gambit lines would benefit from this, the different stances would determine which gambit is altered.
  Enhancements to some of the Way of the Spear Traits/Trait Set bonuses
  Enhancements to some of the Way of the Shield Traits/Trait Set bonuses
  Enhancements to some of the Way of the Fist Traits/Trait Set bonuses

I hope that the gambit replacements effects aren't a consumable like our hymns. Excited to see other changes.

One thing that I will be up front about is Masteries. They are not likely to be turned into skills at any time soon.

I still don't understand the thinking behind masteries as skills as being a terrible idea. Oh well, hopefully with the level cap increase we'll get some more trait slots to be more flexible in builds. At least we can get to a capstone in its current form.


Thanks for the post Orion!

[ShammWoww]

There is an optimal gambit.

What is this optimal gambit of which he speaks? Onslaught?
I use the bleed ones as well for some decent damage too.

[rocketeer8015]

What is this optimal gambit of which he speaks? Onslaught?
I use the bleed ones as well for some decent damage too.

Unless im mistaken its Wardens Triumph.

Oh and i second the sad face for masteries staying traits, can't we atleast get them rolled into a single legendary or something? As another poster said, basically forcing us to have three traits from 3 lines slotted permanently is something no other class suffers from. Not to mention that no other class has to relearn its entire gameplay with slotting/unslotting some traits.

Also im interested which fist gambit would replace itself, considering PB is our highest fist threat skill ... Also you mention it would be decided by stances, so Recklessness is PA, Conservation appears to be Shield so probably MS or something and Determination would then be Piercing Strike?!

I don't know, anyway i look at it you have alot of work ahead of you to make this all fit together. Best of luck, we'll flame you if its not perfect .

[greendragoon100]

Fear not!

I have plans for Wardens too. There is not a lot of information that I can put out now, but the main issues that I can see with Wardens are as follows:

Thank you for taking the time to respond. It is greatly appreciated. I would like to float a few thoughts and ideas. I don't expect everything here, this is just food for thought.

(Spear) DPS: There is an optimal gambit. One. There needs to be other options for dealing damage.

This sounds good. It would be nice if, like other aspects of our class, or DPS is driven through self buffs. So in an ideal setup, we would throw up damage boosting buffs and then hitting on the actual damage dealing skills. Buffs in general should last at least 30 seconds. 10 seconds isn't long enough to be viable unless the buff is big. I also like the idea of stacking damage. It would be nice if while traited in spear we could fill a secondary DPS roll.

(Taunt) Tank: Tank training wheels. Most everything deals with drawing aggro. Morale taps will likely get adjusted to allow for raid tanking. (This gambit line is one that I am going to keep looking at because, in the distant future, it might warrant an overhaul.)

As is if we are tanking, we are in shield. I don't really see what you can do to change that. May I however float a counter suggestion. A fist traited warden could fill an off-tank/secondary aoe dps roll. Our Fierce Resolve gambit line, like the morale leech line, now affects multiple targets. This roll is ideal for when a warden must take on lots of weaker mobs.

The Precise Blow/Piercing Strike line would remain our primary single target threat generator, however things would get rebalanced. Precise Blow would have reasonable instant threat. Piercing Strike would have the same, but also have some ToT. Finally Spear of Virtue would generate less immediate threat, but generate close to as much ToT than could be generated by spamming Piercing Strike in the same amount of time. The idea here is to use the longer gambit for battles. I also think Defiant Challenge could use some rethinking, but I don't use it enough to comment on it further.

(Shield) Tank: Preferred tanking, very solid line, good skills...minor changes here.

The Shield line is in good shape as evidenced by the fact as most wardens run traited shield.

Things that are on the table:

• Allowing the reduction in power for gambits to also apply to the masteries.
  Making Determination more attractive by adding some power regen and increases crit chance reduction
  Addition of effects that will allow for some Gambits to replace themselves when they are used (ex. Completing a Power Attack while under this effect would immediately fill the gambit bar with Spear, Shield, Taunt) All Gambit lines would benefit from this, the different stances would determine which gambit is altered.
  Enhancements to some of the Way of the Spear Traits/Trait Set bonuses
  Enhancements to some of the Way of the Shield Traits/Trait Set bonuses
  Enhancements to some of the Way of the Fist Traits/Trait Set bonuses

I think it would also be worth taking a look at our stances. Right now Conservation is the most commonly used stance, seconded maybe by recklessness for those trying to eek out a little more DPS. Most people after a certain level stop using Determination after a certain level. The defense of Conservation outweighs the morale regen of Determination. Recklessness' big drawback isn't the defensive debuffs, but the lost power regen of not being in Conservation. There needs to be better reasons for being in other stances.

One thing that I will be up front about is Masteries. They are not likely to be turned into skills at any time soon.

I respect your position, however allow me to make the following argument and then I'll shut up. At the higher levels, any truly effective warden uses masteries. They reduce our power consumption and speed up building gambits. In order to be truly effective, a warden must have all three masteries no matter what build they are using. This is because even when focusing on spear gambits, they will chain together as many of the masteries as they can to complete the gambit even if they are from the other lines.

As a result, almost all successful builds start with the same three traits. Couple that with the fact that the last four traits are needed to reach a capstone and you'll find that there isn't a lot of room to customize. This leads to only a few good trait builds with not a lot of variety. Pretty much every other class is allowed to reach a capstone and still sprinkle their build with traits from other lines.

Masteries are just to important to the way a warden plays at high levels.

[opurt]

(Taunt) Tank: Tank training wheels. Most everything deals with drawing aggro. Morale taps will likely get adjusted to allow for raid tanking. (This gambit line is one that I am going to keep looking at because, in the distant future, it might warrant an overhaul.)

Until Wardens get a force taunt like Engage to vault them to the top of the aggro list, they will never be viable raid tanks. There are just too many fight mechanics and situations that necessitate this skill in a raid. Until then they are nothing more than glorified off-tanks.

[geoboy]

I wouldn't mind if our ToTs changed.

PB - upfront threat, no ToT - +10% threat for 20s
PS - Upfront Threat, small tot
SoV - Large ToT

Until Wardens get a force taunt like Engage to vault them to the top of the aggro list, they will never be viable raid tanks. There are just too many fight mechanics and situations that necessitate this skill in a raid. Until then they are nothing more than glorified off-tanks.

I don't mind not being able to recover from a death, it's being unable to manipulate threat at all that gets me.

[disappearingone]

You know, its really early to tell just what all this means but after rereading Orions post i have to wonder if the Dev's really even keep a finger on the pulse of the Warden community? After all very little of the issues discussed over and over on these forums were commented on.

Not to say what Orion said was bad just not what you would expect with all the threads that have sprung up as of late.

While im thinking about it too, I hope that "Addition of effects that will allow for some Gambits to replace themselves" bit is controllable or i see it being very frustrating at times.

[Varenthor]

Very entertaining... and promising. Fist is an interesting idea making it a viable tanking line for new players. Cuts down on the amount of horrible wardens. But I'd rather it be our avoidance tanking line. But the mastery thing is sad.... very very sad. Can you pretty please make them one trait???? PLZ??!?!?!?!?!?!

[Reximus]

I respect your position, however allow me to make the following argument and then I'll shut up. At the higher levels, any truly effective warden uses masteries. They reduce our power consumption and speed up building gambits. In order to be truly effective, a warden must have all three masteries no matter what build they are using. This is because even when focusing on spear gambits, they will chain together as many of the masteries as they can to complete the gambit even if they are from the other lines.

As a result, almost all successful builds start with the same three traits. Couple that with the fact that the last four traits are needed to reach a capstone and you'll find that there isn't a lot of room to customize. This leads to only a few good trait builds with not a lot of variety. Pretty much every other class is allowed to reach a capstone and still sprinkle their build with traits from other lines.

Masteries are just to important to the way a warden plays at high levels.

They are the way a Warden plays NOW, but maybe imagine a world where building gambits fast might not be as important to effective gameplay, or you have alternate ways to quick build gambits. Then the masteries become more of a perk for the trait line then a need to try and compensate for other issues with the class. Especially since Orion seems to be suggesting that successfully completing gambits might become its own gambit builder.

It would be a decent amount of work for them to move those Masteries as they are impacted from other areas, certainly I could see from a development side that they put those in different trait lines with the idea you probably wouldn't get them all, and now that they have some years worth of play data they have a different understanding of the need to quick build gambits, they seem to be looking at a different kind of solution.

Anyhow, just some food for thought on why it might not be high on their list.