Transcript: LOTRO Developer Twitter Chat - Thursday February 21,2013

[jcmanda]

Q23 MrWarg - Can you give us any more information on the major class revamps taking place later in the year? #LOTRO
A23 Jared – Our goal is to reduce the hybrid-homogenized nature of our classes while bringing definition and excitement to the primary role of each line. #LOTRO

Well, I'm already edging toward that door, and this is more than a gentle nudge in that direction.

Sounds like corp-speak for "No more generalization or customization within classes" to me. Of course, taken with other statements about the itemization that RockX is working on, and the trend since stat-cap was removed, it's really just the "final reveal" that fools nobody who's been paying attention.

This game is going to get insanely boring.

[jcmanda]

All Weavers and Wargs are female. And no I'm not kidding or making it up.

I think you just called a good many of the monster players a bad word! :P

[avengingbananaslug]

Please god do not take away the multiple roles characters can have. I would never have made a minstrel if it couldn't DPS because I am not a fan of healing and slow DPS. When I was leveling my champ pre-warspeech and overpower days I could never find a healer or tank for anything because no one made either minstrel or guardian since it was soooo slow to level and those that did got snatched up by kins.

I still don't enjoy healing but I do it occasionally if my kin really needs it. My kin wouldn't even have me to do that if it weren't for the warspeech/good dps capability though.

[Thoronthor]

Oh and for those wanting female creep classes, just a little trivia. All Weavers and Wargs are female. And no I'm not kidding or making it up.

uhm spiders are female, true.
But if you check with Berephon he will tell you wargs are male or both at best. Like my son already said, he has the title SON of Grimmjaw, and that's been that way since launch.

[MrWarg]

I would never have made a minstrel if it couldn't DPS because I am not a fan of healing and slow DPS.

Forgive my impertinence but this makes little sense to me. You don't like healing, but you choose a class that is primarily geared towards healing in this game?

[avengingbananaslug]

Forgive my impertinence but this makes little sense to me. You don't like healing, but you choose a class that is primarily geared towards healing in this game?

Minis are a very underrated dps class and very good at soloing in the Moors, which is mostly how I like playing there. People might want them to heal, but there is no reason they can't DPS most stuff (I've DPSed almost all the hard content on my mini). I chose a mini specifically because they had good dps with the self-heal capability, had some good AoE damage, aren't overly burdened with inductions (which I dislike. I love kiting) and while I like my champ I've grown to love the long range DPS. Minstrel is just the most fun DPS class for me to play for that reason.

There is a valid reason why there are a lot more minstrels now and that is war-speech. While minstrels might need some nerfs while in War-Speech it should come at the expense of self-healing imo and not DPS. This, whether people like it or not, is now primarily a solo based game and therefore imo every class should have solo playability.

[monk_tbd]

Forgive my impertinence but this makes little sense to me. You don't like healing, but you choose a class that is primarily geared towards healing in this game?

Not everyone plays the same style.
I happen to like healing on my mini more so than dpsing in a group setting but I would not want to give up my solo dps on it either.

I appreciate that it does not make sense to you but nonetheless it is a valid playstyle if someone finds it fun. Whether there a lots of chances in a group to run a mini in a dps setting is another story but not necessarily the main reason why people choose minis to play.

[Cerebrum_EU]

Q26 @BhorisThe Spider – One of the reasons for Audacity was to introduce ‘seasonal’ armour sets for the moors. When is the next season? #LOTRO
A26 HoarseDev - A little after u10… 10.1 or 11 methinks. Weapons hopefully as well.#LOTRO

Does this mean audicy +3, or additional sets for each class.

[xDementedx]

I think people are worried about compatibility with
a) gold caps (both the F2P limit of 2 gold and the normal upper limit of 9999 gold), and
b) server transfers.

There are also the role play reasons mentioned and people also probably have other reasons.

Thank you for bringing that up because I was also confused by this answer.

These reasons are true but there are limitations on characters per account and the wallet upgrade is something that must be bought. The server transfers and gold cap are also a limitation on their end. So I can see why Turbine doesn't want to go forward with this as it will cost them resources for something that is merely a quality of life improvement. In terms of role play, there are other things role players I'm sure let slip by and combining their money would just be another one. But Turbine's answer is clear and I too can deal with this if their resources can be put towards content instead.

[Will.]

Ahum, what does this mean exactly? "Transparent" and "user friendly"? I really, really don't want threat meters...

Then you'll love . . . Threat Metres! (It's British!) Cause, honestly, that's about the only way you can interpret "transparent" and "user friendly" in the context of threat. I'm not excited about it either.

Is it me or are they crazy for considering hytbold a success. Sorry but that stupid town was the most boring waste of end game iv ever done.

Pretty much.

But it could be considered a success in that it forced people to continue logging in every day in order to progress for over a month while Turbine worked on the first set of instances. So instead of people getting to 85, having nothing meaningful to do, not logging in, realizing not logging in isn't all that bad, finding another hobby, and not returning to LoTRO when the first half of the delayed instances finally arrived they continued logging in for at least 20 minutes a day, kept LoTRO "on the brain", and were still engaged in the game when 9.1 arrived. So in that sense, it was a success.

But, yeah, the Hytbold rebuild was the most boring thing I've ever experienced in an MMO. I'd rather camp Bloodtalon for 6 hours--and not see him!--than do another round of Hytbold dailies. At least then there'd be the opportunity to interact with other players, maybe meet someone new, make a friend, share a laugh. Remember? Remember when MMOs were about sharing experiences with other people? No? I'm not surprised.

I'm not opposed to the idea of more "Hytbolds" as long as they aren't the only option like Hytbold was for the first couple of months.
Hytbold dailies are very repetitive and there's a lack of variety with the quests.
The reality of Hytbold at least for me turned out to be dissapointingly average compared to how it was hyped.
Combining something like Hytbold with Warbands would be a good way to implement a future Hytbold.

Disappointing is the word I'd use too. When I first heard about it, I thought of the old EQ2 pre-expansion events like rebuilding the spires (or LoTRO's ring lore event) where everyone would contribute in some way towards the server-wide progress of rebuilding Hytbold. The actual event was brutally boring. I did it once. That was more than enough. If there had been more variety in the dailies that might have made it more palatable, but I'm pretty sure most courts of appeal would rule it unconstitutional under the prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.

[Evalaine]

BQ9 Brya - Can you share any ideas you're considering for the housing revamp? Will we be able to get more storage?
BA9 Just ideas for this month but… more/better storage, better item placement rules, ways to display armor/weapons.
We’re evaluating our options and will keep you posted. - HorseDev

Most of my vault space is consumed by cloaks because I like to save them for the unique artwork. A way to implement a "cloak rack" or other way to display these in housing would solve more then one issue for me.

[MrWarg]

Minis are a very underrated dps class and very good ...

I am fully aware that Minstrels are a good DPS class, but that isn't really what I was asking. Rather I am interested in why someone who doesn't like healing would choose a healing class to dps with rather than simply go for a class that has dps as their primary function? Perhaps I am thinking too logically.

Not everyone plays the same style.

I fully agree that everyone is entitled to play in any way they wish (within the rules), but again that isn't really what I was asking. My question is not a commentary on the chap's playstyle; I am genuinely interested to know why he picked Minstrel to dps with.

NOTE: I have shortened both the above quotes purely for the sake of brevity, I am replying to both as full posts.

[bastiat1]

I really really really hope that Helms Deep is a multi-boss progression raid. The raiding community is completely on edge right now. We've had 6 months of solo-end game, followed by old instance revamps with terrible end-game loot drop rates. We are about to get three new Turtle raids- hopefully Watcher raids, but more likely Turtle.

Every raider I know is looking for another game with strong PVE end-game. There are a lot of things that we like about LoTRO relative to those other games, and one of those primary features is the complexity of the skill, trait, legacy systems. Sadly, it looks like Turbine intends to dumb down that complexity too. Oy vey.

[monk_tbd]

I am fully aware that Minstrels are a good DPS class, but that isn't really what I was asking. Rather I am interested in why someone who doesn't like healing would choose a healing class to dps with rather than simply go for a class that has dps as their primary function? Perhaps I am thinking too logically.

I'd say you got a pretty good idea of why from avengingbananaslug before.

So a list maybe consisting of:

- Moors.
- Ability to kite.
- More "oh &&&&" skills than a RK and a bit sturdier.
- Musical aspect of the class.
- Since RoI amazing self heals.

The tool set of a mini is pretty complete at least PVE wise.
You can do burg like crashing a camp to flop to just take out the boss.

[Thronst]

Hytbold was a success?

Maybe it's because I'm not much of a soloer, and I have encountered differing opinions on my server, though the general consensus is that it was an intolerable grind with virtually no reward. Most characters (myself included) would only complete Hytbold on their main, and then just do dailies to get the armour for their alts. It's a nice idea, but it was too drawn out and repetitive and past 20 days, became a chore you tried to rush and get over with.

Please, if ever you create another Hytbold-like area, do not make it a 40+ day grind, and at least add some variety and make a decent reward. As it is, there is almost no incentive to do hytbold on any further alts.

[Lestache]

Hytbold was a success?

Maybe it's because I'm not much of a soloer, and I have encountered differing opinions on my server, though the general consensus is that it was an intolerable grind with virtually no reward. Most characters (myself included) would only complete Hytbold on their main, and then just do dailies to get the armour for their alts. It's a nice idea, but it was too drawn out and repetitive and past 20 days, became a chore you tried to rush and get over with.

Please, if ever you create another Hytbold-like area, do not make it a 40+ day grind, and at least add some variety and make a decent reward. As it is, there is almost no incentive to do hytbold on any further alts.

I think it was a success in the terms that others have mentioned already: namely, that whatever metrics Turbine has show that tons of people were and are doing the Hytbold quests.

That, of course, ignores the fact that it was basically the only thing to do at level 85, so it was a success in much the same way that Eastern Rohan was by far the most successful area in the game in terms of getting people from level 75 to 85.

[Armitas]

Q26 @BhorisThe Spider – One of the reasons for Audacity was to introduce ‘seasonal’ armour sets for the moors. When is the next season? #LOTRO
A26 HoarseDev - A little after u10… 10.1 or 11 methinks. Weapons hopefully as well.#LOTRO

Please no. These seasons don't represent anything for us other than an unnecessary hoop to jump through.

The hoop is right above us so when we jump up through it we just land back to the same place we started. It's not like leveling or raiding where there is actually something better on the other side of the hoop. All your doing is knocking us backwards and saying come forward again.

Unless there is something to add to each season please keep those seasons for level cap increases. If I may suggest, build a moors *sub traitline, one that builds with each season and helps make it easier to balance freeps between pvp and pve, rather than relying almost exclusively on the creeps to make that balance. Put a carrot on the end of the stick, otherwise it's just a stick, and sticks hurt.

*parallel to our current one.

[S-S-S]

I personally really like the idea of a new trait "Tree" system, versus the current trait system. WoW had a "Tree" type system that worked for years. They recently changed it to that of a line and it has received a lot of negative feedback. Tree's allow for a much larger amount of benefits per trait type. For example, one could use 2 yellow and 5 red as a champion. This really doesn't leave many options for traits. Whereas a tree, you may be given 50 points, and you can get 50 smaller benefits. Or you could go 25 yellow, 25 red. etc. A tree allows for a much larger span of options to customize your character.

Honestly, the reason WOW dumped the "tree" system for talents is because it was bloated and did not work.

Most of the talents were on the order of "Each rank grants you +1$ bleed damage" or "Each rank grants a 0.2 second reduction in the cast time of your Lightning Bolt Spell". The majority of the talents in the WOW trees were liekthis, and every class had a cookie cutter spec that had only a few available points free for customization. If you didn't spec dorrectly, your performance suffered, greatly and any decent rad group would refuse to take you.

the latest WOW revamp baked all the "no brainer" choices into the classes and specializations, they hapen automatically now. What is left are real choices. the system isn't perfect, but it is FAR better.

Do i think turbine should do things the same way in LOTRO? Nope, I don't play LOTRO to be on WOW. having the ability to save "specializations" (Trait setups) and having some method to swap between them however, that i can get behind!

[Delaney]

I don't expect to be thrilled by all the upcoming changes, but I do think overall the movement is in a positive direction.

Stat/Class changes: The stat changes are a pain, but I can live with them especially since they're a precursor to class changes. My main (a burg) will still lose a nice chunk of crit, but if this is a tradeoff for actually being able to choose to be a useful utility/debuffing class again as opposed to being forced into a weird-single target melee DPS role to be considered effective, I'll happily make that switch. (I still don't understand why a class described in the character creation info blurb as being masters of debuffing and as having stealth skills can't actually stealth when in a debuffing stance, but that's another thread.)

Class changes will upset some people and please others, always. I feel that burglars have been neglected and directionless for a very, very long time, so I welcome a change since there is at least the potential for improvement. Others may not feel their class or even any class needs a change, but I would strongly disagree with just about any blanket statement on the subject. There's no one person who can remotely claim to speak for all the players. This actually goes for any of the topics raised.

All that being said, I do hope each class gets to keep (or regain) a distinct "flavor" while having some latitude within the class traits for customization.

Traits vs. trees: I like LotRO's trait system quite a bit. But unfortunately, my preferred trait line for burgs has been broken/underpowered/less viable for so very long that it doesn't matter how good the overall system is. It would thus be hard for me to argue against anything that makes it more useful again.

If trees are upcoming, as suggested by HoarseDev's answer to my question (thanks for answering, by the way), then I would greatly prefer trees we could shape ourselves, rather than the predetermined MC paths. Being able to personalize one's character to a preferred style of play has always been a strength of the game and it would be a real blow to lose this.

Loot: I enjoy raiding quite a bit and belong to an awesome independent raid group. I also love the new looting system. I'm not sure why it's a bad thing when more than more person can win the big ticket item. It might break the pecking/supremacy order of DKP systems, but you could still apply that to the important non-BoA items. For other folks, it's nice knowing you actually have a shot at winning something useful even if you haven't had the time to run the same raid forty-seven times.

Hytbold: It got a bit grindy in the end, though not intolerably so. Anything in this game will become so if you do it long enough. I was pleased by having a non-raid alternative to obtaining a worthwhile armour set and even more impressed by the ability to obtain armour for other alts. As something different at end-game, I personally do think it was successful. People do have different opinions about this and they're not all bad.

If nothing else, it sounds like it should be an interesting year.

[K_C]

BQ9 Brya - Can you share any ideas you're considering for the housing revamp? Will we be able to get more storage?

BA9 Just ideas for this month but… more/better storage, better item placement rules, ways to display armor/weapons.
We’re evaluating our options and will keep you posted. - HorseDev



Since shields can't be used as cosmetics, it would be great to decorate a wall with all the shields I've kept in storage just because I didn't want to retire them to the trash. Too much great artwork in these for limited use.

[Aohh]

Hytbold was a success?

- ofc it was. We had nothing else to do until the recycle dol guldur cluster got released...


Talent trees?

- no thanks. Old WoW trees and current Swtor trees do not allow any real customization. You are expected to spend a fixed amount of points to unlock the indispensable ability, and there are not much points left for going original.
There is a reason why Blizzard got rid of them.
There is a reason why many consider traits as superior to that flawed tree system. We can play 3 blue and 2red 1 yellow and still be viable. Impossible with trees.

[SabrielofLorien]

I've only played 2 MMOs: LOTRO and SWTOR so I don't have a lot of experience in the area of talent/skill trees.

LOTRO: I can cherry pick what I want for my Class but for the war steed I have to spend points in a line to get something useful like WS Agility (near the top) so I don't get motion sick every time I ride the horse.

SWTOR: is like the War Steed. I have to spend points in a line to get to the next buff level. If there's something at the top I would like I have to take all the junk underneath to get to it.

I really hope we keep the Pick Your Own List without restrictions. The War Steed should be changed to Pick Your Own without being tied to any other segment.

Without it, there's much less individuality in setup. Everyone will do exactly the same cookie cutter setup.

It would be nice to be able to save off different configs so you don't have to sort thru the list again but if that meant giving up the Pick Your Own List, I'd rather not have that option.

[Silverangel]

The classes in LotRO are the most unique, great thing about the game in terms of gameplay. It doesn't make sense to do a major overhaul of the best thing in the game, and moreover when almost no one wants this. Players like the classes just fine. Agree with above post that I don't play LotRO to play WoW. I really, really don't want my LM or RK to lose a bunch of skills and functionality.

LotRO has to have a way to swap roles, though. And also hoping this somehow converts the burglar into something wonderful, or the captain into something I'd want to pick up again.

[Adanamir]

A few thoughts on traits and customisation. As a few people explained in detail, the current trait system indeed offers far greater flexibility than a tree-based system would. If I have to compare with the mounted combat trait lines, the main difference is that in mounted combat, you have the option to assume roles, but they remain basically the same within the same class. Yes, you have some flexibility as you can switch roles on the fly, but there is no more flavour than that.

The beauty of the current system is that you have the option of sub-customisation within a given role. Yes, it doesn't always work optimally, and some traits remain more valuable than others. However, this system provides for far more variety than having only three uniform roles. Furthermore, hybrid builds are actually the best thing about LOTRO, as they allow players to experiment. I don't mind specialisation and classic roles; however, I enjoy the freedom of being able to play the way I like. Yes, I may be as effective as someone who specilises in trait line, but I'll be having fun, which I think is the most important part of any game.

It is quite sad to see that we finally get the option of switching trait sets (as in mounted combat), but having our choice reduced considerably.

[SabrielofLorien]

A few thoughts on traits and customisation. As a few people explained in detail, the current trait system indeed offers far greater flexibility than a tree-based system would. If I have to compare with the mounted combat trait lines, the main difference is that in mounted combat, you have the option to assume roles, but they remain basically the same within the same class. Yes, you have some flexibility as you can switch roles on the fly, but there is no more flavour than that.

The beauty of the current system is that you have the option of sub-customisation within a given role. Yes, it doesn't always work optimally, and some traits remain more valuable than others. However, this system provides for far more variety than having only three uniform roles. Furthermore, hybrid builds are actually the best thing about LOTRO, as they allow players to experiment. I don't mind specialisation and classic roles; however, I enjoy the freedom of being able to play the way I like. Yes, I may be as effective as someone who specilises in trait line, but I'll be having fun, which I think is the most important part of any game.

It is quite sad to see that we finally get the option of switching trait sets (as in mounted combat), but having our choice reduced considerably.

Are the Devs really going with a fixed tree?

That would be bad. In the past my LM has been asked to load up X or Y or Z+A traits for a run. If it's all fixed, I'll end up all blue or all red or all yellow just to get something at the top. Oh... that would be unfortunate.

Who would want a LM for CC if they had to go to the top of the tree to get a longer mez,stun but lost all their power donations or SI protection on the way to the top of the tree...

As I pointed out in a previous posting, I had to do that with the War Steed to get the turning and agility options and I have nothing in the other 2 branches. I'd really be <sad panda> if they did that to my toons.

Can't say as I understand most of the <stuff> they put out anyway but I sure hope this really not on the docket.