Transcript: LOTRO Developer Twitter Chat - Thursday March 21, 2013

[Ryvick]

I have to admit. I am firmly entrenched in the NO SKILL TREES camp. No matter how you are going to try to implement it there is absolutely no way it will improve the classes and will only seek to significantly restrict them.

Every game I have played (and there have been many from WoW, Rift, and SWTOR to various others) that has had a tree based setup has been absolutely horrible with regards to attempting to appropriately balance or differentiate said trees. There is no chance this change is going to go well in LoTRO.

LoTRO already has one of the best forms of customizable trait setups out there. As people have already said this is an absurdly extravagant waste of Dev resources and time to attempt to change a fundamental precept that does not need changing.

I am severely disappointed in this proposed change.

[Jaliki55]

This is our intent with the Fate revamp. One of our main goals is to allow players to fight infinitely, should they be willing to sacrifice some of their other offensive/defensive stats for Fate. With the changes coming in 10.1 we are by no means reverting Fate back to its previous state. It will still retain a higher contribution to ICPR than pre-u10, and this contribution will remain linear. We are simply readjusting it to the current state of itemization, where it will require more than a modest effort to reach this state of infinite fight time.

Then please, please, please, please, change this for heavy classes.

My champ and captain are still consistently having power issues. Moreso on the latter, even using victory herald. I can keep my morale up, but cappy's lack decent power return, and their ICPR is really low, even with buffs, etc.

If the goal is to fight infinitely, and I'm willing to sacrifice some off/def stats, you need to reevaluate all the heavy classes.

Having farmed 80+ BFE's (before the nerf, no thanks for that, btw), the only classes that had ANY power issues were the heavy classes.

[dietlbomb]

I tried to respond to the discussions about trait trees during the twitter chat, but the chat was abruptly cut off. My question was:

Why 3 trees per class? Devs haven't found 3 roles for champs/hnts, but capts could have 4. Premature optimization?

I am interested in this. It isn't necessary that every class needs 3 trait lines or 3 trait trees. For example, champions have always had 2 roles: dps and tanking. That these roles are split into 3 trait lines is illogical. Various revamps have attempted to make one dps line optimal for single target dps and one optimal for AoE dps, but the separation of these lines has always been artificial.

The response that each class would have 3 distinct trait trees is dismaying. I would like to give the developers the benefit of the doubt, but this has the appearance of a stale, jejune system.

This is an opportunity to break free of the 3-trait-line paradigm established with the Mines of Moria expansion. It never made sense for champions to have 2 dps traitlines. Why not combine them into one big dps trait line with opportunities for individuality within that single trait line?

It doesn't make sense for captains to specialize deeply into single trait lines; the captain class is meant to be a hybrid. Why not 4 trait lines for captains?

Also, if the developers are worried about classes becoming too good at multiple roles simultaneously, the problem isn't in the traits. The problem is the legendary item system. We are able to customize multiple legendary items to complement each role, and switch among those legendary items during battle. We can't switch between traits during battle.

I'd love to see what the developers are cooking up, but I am also worried.

Other comments:

Why did it take 2 weeks to remove 1st age legendary items from the Tier 1 raid loot table? This isn't rocket science (don't answer this if you program the game in c++; I don't want to know!).

I'm so tired.

[Jaliki55]

It was a bug. Nothing more. Nothing less. Sorry, but it really is just that simple.

This is a really &&&&&& bug then.

I'm glad there's an explanation at least, however, this has happened twice now, and both times its been changed to the detriment of everyone by leaving a lucky cadre with an unfair advantage of those of us just not lucky enough to win one (80+ BFE's run here, no symbol).

I saw another comment in regards to this: Shouldn't FA's be used to help beat T2 content, instead of being a slim chance of reward for completing the harder stuff? The real reward for clearing T2 and T2C content is the titles and bragging rights?

TBH I honestly don't know whether this gets tested or not, but would a T2 raid be achievable with a SA LI (and appropriate teal gear)? Its probably that I come from a casual kinship that can successfully clear T1 runs Friday and Saturday nights, but can't clear the T2 stuff.

tl;dr: I appreciate the answer, but if it happens again, don't "fix" it, because it leaves a very sour taste in player's mouths, especially those who didn't get "lucky" enough to exploit the bug; or realize the bug is there, but don't take two weeks to "fix" it. Else yea, the conspiracy theories look VERY plausible.

[twittfounder]

as a somewhat more radical suggestion. why bother with power, ICPR, or power costs at all? or fate for that matter.

IF you have a mechanic with a limiting system...then there SHOULD be trade offs and sacrifices.

If the intended development goal is to have indefinately long fights...why bother with ICPR or power AT ALL?

How does the game look with zero power costs, no blue bars, and no limitations on a "power" front. That's certainly the way it seems to be heading.

[Lestache]

Then please, please, please, please, change this for heavy classes.

My champ and captain are still consistently having power issues. Moreso on the latter, even using victory herald. I can keep my morale up, but cappy's lack decent power return, and their ICPR is really low, even with buffs, etc.

If the goal is to fight infinitely, and I'm willing to sacrifice some off/def stats, you need to reevaluate all the heavy classes.

Having farmed 80+ BFE's (before the nerf, no thanks for that, btw), the only classes that had ANY power issues were the heavy classes.

Captains are definitely having issues, but I haven't seen any Champs having problems - I certainly haven't been. I spam Remorseless and I can't drop below 90% power unless I hit Dire Need.

[twittfounder]

And I'm sorry to call this out...but how can First Ages on T1 raids with the instsance cluster be "a bug"?

That's not a bug...that's poor version control...or changing your mind...or horrible QA...or lack of testing...or flat out lieing to the community for an answer. But i do NOT buy, for one iota, that it is "a bug".

This is content that should have been tested and retested. MONTHS AGO when it was PAID FOR.

Checked and rechecked. And for something that will definately pique the communities interest like the introduction of first ages...(by the way... we are still here and remember the Durchest "pinata" nerf). You have to do better than that. Calling it a 'bug" is an insult to people still playing the game.

Oversight? Change of mind? Mistake? We'd buy those explanations.

It's honestly bad enough that NINE MONTHS after pre-orders, expansions, and other what nots, there STILL IS NOT a fully functionaly instance cluster...folks paid for this almost a full year ago!

If it IS a "bug" it is not acceptable with as much time as you've asked for money for this content.

[Lyzau]

Q26: Nasami - Cosmetic gear slots? My LM has found some gorgeous staves, only to lose how they look because she found better quality gear. Please?

A26: Evan "Verizal" Graziano
Unfortunately due to tech limitations, this is not really an option

I appreciate the limitations, but still hope that in future you might find some way to alleviate the current issue of Legendary weapons being mass produced and boring compared to many pre-legendary weapons, and I want to be clear that I am not asking for the super ornate high fantasy weapons seen in other fantasy MMOs. LOTR has a rich heritage of unique and powerful named weapons, and it has never really felt like the legendary system has captured that, between having to constantly replace them and the lack of visual variety.

Amen to that, and +rep for saying so.
It was the most disappointing answer out of the entire #devchat.

[Ciubakka]

Since it was mentioned that there will be trees and points and what not instead of traits, are we looking at a "specc" system that some other games have? ( e.g. SWTOR, WoW, Rift )

[q945]

I'm particularly fond of our current "buffet" method of selecting class traits. It has me a little worried that the design and development teams are set on implementing class traits as trees, presumably similar to how mounted combat traits are currently chosen.

To me, this doesn't offer interesting decisions. Instead, I just make whatever choices are necessary to get to the delicious pie at the bottom of the tree. The only real decisions are what to do with the points left over.

This!

I hate skill trees! Usually you end up putting points in something you don't really want just to unlock skills further along the tree. Its the illusion of choice, not real choice (your only other option is to not spend points at all).

My other gripe is that this is a change forced on us, not chosen by us.

[radspakr]

Verizal since you are responding to this topic I figure it's a good chance to bring up the power issues most Guards are having.
Will Guards be adjusted to have better ICPR or adding more fate to our gear?

I also have to point out to the people as I've done in the past but we already practically have a skill tree for a class traits.
You're pretty much required to trait mostly one line to be any good in your role the current system is only flexible to people who trait poorly.
For instance a tank Guard would be stupid to trait too many red line traits because you'd have useless skills and lock off the capstones.
The only difference between what we have now and a skill tree is we aren't using points.

[Cliford]

I just don't see how I can possibly purchase another expansion without a multi-boss progression raid on release. Not just "instances" a multi-boss progression raid. I've been burned too many times now. Patience is at z_e_r_o. I would bet that a large share of the raiding population is asking themselves the same question. Sadly, that's like 500 people. Ugh.

Well said.

[Grimdi]

Pretty much what I was expecting from this chat, many fluff questions selected and little real info in summary. All of the "Helms Deep" answers just sound like marketing to me (pre-order coming soon?).
Sorry if that's too zynical, but that's how I feel at the moment.

[Joene]

I want to thank the LOTRO dev team for their time to answer (some) of our questions.

Too much negativity in this thread.....

[Aohh]

I just don't see how I can possibly purchase another expansion without a multi-boss progression raid on release. Not just "instances" a multi-boss progression raid. I've been burned too many times now. Patience is at z_e_r_o. I would bet that a large share of the raiding population is asking themselves the same question. Sadly, that's like 500 people. Ugh.

Well what did we learn from that twitter chat, from a development standpoint:

- Decline of PvP and raids playstyles
- Focus on the solo one.

Confirmed by Sapience that the PvP and Raid communities were not the majority, and that the development allocated takes that in account, proportionally.

The legitimate question is then:
Should others keep on subb'ing to a Single Player Game ?

[Khallan]

And I'm sorry to call this out...but how can First Ages on T1 raids with the instsance cluster be "a bug"?

That's not a bug...that's poor version control...or changing your mind...or horrible QA...or lack of testing...or flat out lieing to the community for an answer. But i do NOT buy, for one iota, that it is "a bug".

*snip*

Oversight? Change of mind? Mistake? We'd buy those explanations.

*snip*

If it IS a "bug" it is not acceptable with as much time as you've asked for money for this content.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe that the testers on Bullroarer did in fact state that FA's were dropping too rampantly for what was established as one of the most valuable items in the game since Moria. Never have FA's been so easy to acquire.

I'm glad that whatever the issue was, it was fixed, but the damage has already been done entirely.

I don't know about other people, but myself, and many people in my kin/raiding group are distraught about the RNG loot system. I definitely love the fact that Master Looter and suicide lists are no longer required, but it seems like the drop rates for the class item legendary quality gear are abysmal, and drop at higher rates for some people than they do for others.

This is especially frustrating for people who are incredibly unlucky and whose only improvements to their build are in fact the class items or horse-lords items which share that same rarity.

In my raiding/instancing experience in u10.0.2 I've seen several people with multiple class items drop (some receiving the same item twice), but conversely, people who do the same amount of runs receiving absolutely nothing to show for their troubles.

[Elemiire]

Well what did we learn from that twitter chat, from a development standpoint:

- Decline of PvP and raids playstyles
- Focus on the solo one.

Confirmed by Sapience that the PvP and Raid communities were not the majority, and that the development allocated takes that in account, proportionally.

The legitimate question is then:
Should others keep on subb'ing to a Single Player Game ?

I know I won't.

[AaylaKheledlire]

When will come the 10.1?

[Wibz]

Well what did we learn from that twitter chat, from a development standpoint:

- Decline of PvP and raids playstyles
- Focus on the solo one.

Confirmed by Sapience that the PvP and Raid communities were not the majority, and that the development allocated takes that in account, proportionally.

The legitimate question is then:
Should others keep on subb'ing to a Single Player Game ?

With this clear sign that WB are putting less resources into pvp and raids, it can only mean that many/most raiders and PvPers will leave. I certainly know people who won't be still playing at the next expansion if there is no confirmed multi-boss raid at release.

But this makes all the work on classes and skill-trees semi-redundant because you can level solo to 85 with under-level gear and almost no skill traits.


It's sad to see a game that used to have fun and challenging raid content turn into an almost purely solo/casual game on what I imagine is an accountants decision.

[Eartholloth]

But this makes all the work on classes and skill-trees semi-redundant because you can level solo to 85 with under-level gear and almost no skill traits.

Just because that is the case for you that don't mean it's like that for everyone else.

[Stealthiness]

Q31: Tulcavaryar - Any plans to help hunters and burglars get their mitigations above 40% more easily?

A:31 Matt "Hoarsedev" Zimmitti
That will be dependent on what build you choose =)

I read: All other classes can cap tactical mitigation without giving up their main stat in their main roll, except for Hunters and Burglars, because we just don't care about them.

Thank god we got Kelsan now who hopefully will vouch for us Hunters and Burglars out there.

Q38: @Honvik Any idea if you will bring in a PvP tournament system I.e 12v12 or smaller PvP warzone #devchat#lotro

A38: Derek Flippo
We have no plans to add additional PvMP content.

I read: We've done enough about PvMP when RoR hit for another 5 years, in our eyes.

U9 finally hit balance the closest we've ever seen it. When U10 hit freeps became ridiculously OP again. They should always keep an eye on the balance and tweek stuff in the moors with every update. As soon as we hit balance, they should introduce instanced pvp (6v6/12v12 battlegrounds). Then LotRO will finally be able to compete in PvP with other games and attract a lot of people to become VIP. Only in my kin I count 20 active players who would subscribe if LotRO PvP offered more than a near empty map for most of the day and a lagfest from late afternoon till midnight.

[Faitha81]

Cant believe nobody asked why they implemented this terrible loot system !

[RSmuppet]

Verizal since you are responding to this topic I figure it's a good chance to bring up the power issues most Guards are having.
Will Guards be adjusted to have better ICPR or adding more fate to our gear?

I also have to point out to the people as I've done in the past but we already practically have a skill tree for a class traits.
You're pretty much required to trait mostly one line to be any good in your role the current system is only flexible to people who trait poorly.
For instance a tank Guard would be stupid to trait too many red line traits because you'd have useless skills and lock off the capstones.
The only difference between what we have now and a skill tree is we aren't using points.

The changes to fate last update gave more power to guards and increased power costs, but our issues with power are still there. The ICPR is still a problem solo as I for one have never concentrated on fate, funnily enough.

It's not really a skill tree we have currently, yes there are pre-reqs. but for that's the point of a trait system where you are customising skills to fit a role. I think that a large part of the worry is if we get a MC style sort of thing: it's not just points it's a lot more linear than that. I do agree though that the current trait system needs some sort of tweaking as we've had the same amount of traits since 65 now, etc.

[Cavar]

Cant believe nobody asked why they implemented this terrible loot system !

Because, overall, it's not terrible. You can't honestly tell me you prefer killing 10 mobs and running to their corpses and clicking each one to loot them?

Though you probably meant it's terrible for raiding, right?

[Cerebrum_EU]

summarization of Update 11:

no skirmish
no instance
no scaled old instance
just solo endcontent.

Why everybody is talking about the community council, when not even a group is needed for the content since funny Hytbold-collect "endcontent" tokens for 40 days, and with update 11 maybe 50 days... MMORPG (massively multiple only repeating personal game)

Very disappointing view into the future of lotro. The time of raiding kins seems to be definitely over. Farming mobs is not funny at all. But I am glad that this kind of "endcontent-jewelry/gear" is not neccessary for raids, because all loot is available in tier 1, even faster or not needed. Nearly all challenges were beaten within the first weeks. Fortunately, flight to the lonely mountain is closed which delays finishing all content and artificially stretch the endcontent for barter the final set...

The only positiv aspect is that I do not have to investigate so much time for a well equipped toon in future.