Transcript: LOTRO Developer Twitter Chat - Thursday March 21, 2013

[Kerin_Eldar]

Q1: Drunken_Valar – Any plans to update the stability of the game?

A1: Aaron “Rowan” Campbell
With Update 10 we hit some unexpected issues that required us to close “Flight to the Lonely Mountain” The engineering team is tracking those down, and we hope to have them fixed soon.
We’re also looking at ways to add more monitoring to the game servers to help us track down bugs. We continue to push the boundaries of our game engine with new features like mounted combat. Those are great for new gameplay, but also create new challenges for our engineers.

So, not even an ack. that U10 introduced BSODs for a good number of folks and there has been ZERO comment on it from Turbine reps. even though the thread(s) in the Tech. forum are getting longer by the day, all sans 'blue' posts.

[Verizal]

Hi Verizal, good to put a name to the fate/power changes. I'm glad that the system is going to continue to be tweaked down the road, but I do have a couple of comments.

1) +Max Power is a total trash stat for all classes and has been for some time now, and it has literally nothing to do with any current power management issues. A single slice of power on a piece of gear provides on the order of a single skill use. Power management is entirely due to the interplay between skill power costs and ICPR/power returns.

With this revamp, Max Power is not intended to act as a means of power management (as Fate is), but rather an added buffer, much like the additional power that will-users receive per level. There are plans to take a look at this stat in the near future, however, and further address how we would like to offer it.

2) Nerfing Fate in any fashion seems like a generally bad idea at this point. Lots of people have already invested quite a bit into acquiring Fate in their builds. Plus, current itemization makes it clear that Fate was meant to be an important secondary stat for all classes. Rather than change the effectiveness of the stat, I think you should instead work on tweaking skill power costs to the point where power management is balanced without making people regret their investments.

This is where I think people are deriving most of the confusion from. Yes, Fate will be seeing a reduced contribution to ICPR. At the same time, however, skill costs are being reduced as well. If a class were able to fight for 2 minutes before running out of power in u10, then the intent is to be able to have them continue to do so in 10.1. This adjustment is being made primarily to bring the stat back in line with the other primaries for the sake of skill and traits. It will still maintain its importance, and players will certainly have not wasted any time or effort investing into it.

Because I'm not entirely sure that this was clearly posted, our goals for this revamp were as follows:

- Players should be able to focus solely on dps/tanking/healing for 2 minutes in combat with a modest investment in fate (In this case, about 400)
- Players should be able to last roughly 5 minutes in combat with a modest investment in fate, while relying on a mix of less costly skills, power restoration abilities, power-related traits, etc
- Player should be able to fight indefinitely with a substantial investment in Fate

3) Ultimately, I think appropriate balance would be such that people who get reasonable levels of fate as a secondary stat (i.e. without sacrificing any of their primary stat or other priority derived stats like crit rating) should be able to achieve "infinite power" in a group setting provided they use everything at their disposal to save/return power - LM's sharing power, Captains returning power, legacies saving power, ICPR food, etc. In solo play, you should be able to achieve infinite power via sacrificing some amount of main stat for extra fate.

This is essentially what we are doing. As a solo player, you are going to have to sacrifice a good deal of other offensive/defensive stats on your gear to reach a point where power is no longer an issue. In group play, however, this requirement can off course be slightly lessened thanks to Fate/ICPR-based buffs from the various classes.

4) Raw ICPR on gear needs to be addressed. Currently, slices of derived stats come in larger quantities than you'd get out of a slice of primary stat consistently (i.e. you get much more block out of a slice of block than a slice of might, but you miss out on the other benefits of might). However, a slice of fate gives MUCH more ICPR than a slice of raw ICPR, so raw ICPR on gear is also now a trash stat. It would be nice if it scaled better with item level.

This is something that I'm aware of. With the changes coming in 10.1, the difference between the two will be lessened, but still present. For this reason, you should not be seeing any ICPR on newer gear and, in the near future, should start to see it phased out of older gear for Fate.

[Valamar]

Not saying it's bad, although I do think it would turn out that way unless the 300+ kill counts get reduced at the same time.

The major problem with the high kill-counts is the fact that various updates have dramatically REDUCED the number of available targets SIGNIFICANTLY -- the two recent Moria revisions in particular seriously impacted slayer deeds there.

[Namesse]

This is where I think people are deriving most of the confusion from. Yes, Fate will be seeing a reduced contribution to ICPR. At the same time, however, skill costs are being reduced as well. If a class were able to fight for 2 minutes before running out of power in u10, then the intent is to be able to have them continue to do so in 10.1. This adjustment is being made primarily to bring the stat back in line with the other primaries for the sake of skill and traits. It will still maintain its importance, and players will certainly have not wasted any time or effort investing into it.

Will IDOME and the minstrel tale fate contributions be restored?

- Players should be able to focus solely on dps/tanking/healing for 2 minutes in combat with a modest investment in fate (In this case, about 400)

What if I can't even get to 400 as the pRNG doesn't work in my favor; maybe by the time U10.1 rolls around I'll have acquired this level, but there's no guarantee that I will on all my toons.

[ChromiteSwiftpaw]

This is where I think people are deriving most of the confusion from. Yes, Fate will be seeing a reduced contribution to ICPR. At the same time, however, skill costs are being reduced as well. If a class were able to fight for 2 minutes before running out of power in u10, then the intent is to be able to have them continue to do so in 10.1. This adjustment is being made primarily to bring the stat back in line with the other primaries for the sake of skill and traits. It will still maintain its importance, and players will certainly have not wasted any time or effort investing into it.

Verizal, since my previous points in the thread were passed over I'm going to try and restate/reword them here.

Since you are adjusting fate, again, what are you going to do for those folks who crafted ultra rare one-shot crafting items based on the state of fate in Update 10? What if, after you make changes to fate, a different output for that recipe would have been more desirable?

In that same theme many people made non-reversible decisions on their Legendary Items based on the state of fate in Update 10. i.e. applied a Crystal of Rememberance & wrote a Minor legacy to it instead of a Power Saving Major because it wasn't as necessary as it was due to the state of fate.

These decisions were made with the assumption that you guys were satisfied with the state of fate in Beta despite people reporting it was a bit overpowered. Now you're going back on the decision and those that have made these non-reversible changes are stuck with them.

[Sandgorgan]

Verizal, since my previous points in the thread were passed over I'm going to try and restate/reword them here.

Since you are adjusting fate, again, what are you going to do for those folks who crafted ultra rare one-shot crafting items based on the state of fate in Update 10? What if, after you make changes to fate, a different output for that recipe would have been more desirable?

In that same theme many people made non-reversible decisions on their Legendary Items based on the state of fate in Update 10. i.e. applied a Crystal of Rememberance & wrote a Minor legacy to it instead of a Power Saving Major because it wasn't as necessary as it was due to the state of fate.

These decisions were made with the assumption that you guys were satisfied with the state of fate in Beta despite people reporting it was a bit overpowered. Now you're going back on the decision and those that have made these non-reversible changes are stuck with them.

Ancient Riddermark Scrolls will now be available in the Lotro store. For your convenience legacy scrolls and Legendary advancement scrolls will be on sale for 20% off.... <I wish this was sarcasm>

[Southpa]

What the heck is a "real" gamer?

To Southpa, it's anyone who plays the game the way he does. Any other avenues of play are obviously not real.

Of course they are real, but I'll not debate semantics with the likes of you - there's some paint drying that I need to watch instead...

A "real" gamer is someone who knows the ins and outs of the mechanics of the game. They have "studied" the game and the game holds very little, if any, mystery to them (I imagine this concept is difficult for some to grasp, but it exists nonetheless). They find no limitations in the games they dedicate themselves to. They don't complain that something is too hard or too exclusive, they just get everything done. They seek challenges and like to accomplish things that the majority of people who play that game don't/can't/won't ever accomplish - and not for lack of wanting.

To be fair, most games can't accommodate this type of player for long and many such players have left LotRO in the years gone by. Soon there will be a tiny smattering of them here and there, but these people don't find enjoyment in games in which one's skill in playing it means so very little in the end. LotRO wasn't always like that, but it sure is headed that way now.

So that's what I meant by a "real" gamer. And even though I said (verbatim, in original post) "real" to try to temper it a bit, good ol' Loreineth still takes it straight to heart. Beauty. lol


Edit: And for what it's worth, there are people on this forum and that I play with who fit the "real gamer" mould much better than I do - so it wasn't intended to be a chest-thumping lookatme type of post. Just calling it like I see it.

[Samsgaard]

A "real" gamer is someone who knows the ins and outs of the mechanics of the game. They have "studied" the game and the game holds very little, if any, mystery to them ...

Hmm, don't know if Southpa is praising or condemning these "real" gamers, but this comment illustrates a difficulty I have with the evolution of LOTRO, or at least, my playing of it.

I am not a serial MMO'er. I did not sign up for LOTRO (almost three years ago) because I felt a burning need to join an MMO community or escape from some other MMO community. Otherwise, I would have signed up for WoW (which my brother plays at a high level, and which would have been a great social opportunity for us).

I came to LOTRO because I am a hard-core, 30+ year Tolkien fan. I am currently re-reading LOTR for at least the 30th time. Initially, this game was fascinating because of the landscapes, the little details, and the mystery of not knowing exactly what was around the corner or how I was going to deal with it.

Unfortunately, having since "studied" the game, the mystery (well, any enjoyable mystery) is gone and it's all just mathematics now. I think often of the scene in The Matrix where Neo finally sees through the virtual world, and everything is just sequences of ones-and-zeroes, green against a black background. I don't often feel immersed in a virtual, Tolkein-esque world anymore. Mostly I feel like I'm playing a complicated mathematics game (what's my ICPR, ICH, BPE, phys mit, tac mit, resistance...at what morale percentage does this boss go into phase two...).

It's a darn good mathematics game, but do I enjoy the game more, having "studied" it to death? Hard to say, but probably not. I was probably happier as a soloer, exploring what I still perceived to be an immersive virtual world. The social experience that comes from raiding is great, but in order to be an effective raider I've had to master a lot of mechanics and become a "real gamer" per Southpa's definition, and I've lost something in the process--the mystery, the illusion. Now all I see are the ones and zeroes, and all I think about is how to make them work in my favor (hmm, if I swap this ring for that ring, my crit rating will go up and I won't lose too much tac mastery...)

[Lestache]

Hmm, don't know if Southpa is praising or condemning these "real" gamers, but this comment illustrates a difficulty I have with the evolution of LOTRO, or at least, my playing of it.

I am not a serial MMO'er. I did not sign up for LOTRO (almost three years ago) because I felt a burning need to join an MMO community or escape from some other MMO community. Otherwise, I would have signed up for WoW (which my brother plays at a high level, and which would have been a great social opportunity for us).

I came to LOTRO because I am a hard-core, 30+ year Tolkien fan. I am currently re-reading LOTR for at least the 30th time. Initially, this game was fascinating because of the landscapes, the little details, and the mystery of not knowing exactly what was around the corner or how I was going to deal with it.

Unfortunately, having since "studied" the game, the mystery (well, any enjoyable mystery) is gone and it's all just mathematics now. I think often of the scene in The Matrix where Neo finally sees through the virtual world, and everything is just sequences of ones-and-zeroes, green against a black background. I don't often feel immersed in a virtual, Tolkein-esque world anymore. Mostly I feel like I'm playing a complicated mathematics game (what's my ICPR, ICH, BPE, phys mit, tac mit, resistance...at what morale percentage does this boss go into phase two...).

It's a darn good mathematics game, but do I enjoy the game more, having "studied" it to death? Hard to say, but probably not. I was probably happier as a soloer, exploring what I still perceived to be an immersive virtual world. The social experience that comes from raiding is great, but in order to be an effective raider I've had to master a lot of mechanics and become a "real gamer" per Southpa's definition, and I've lost something in the process--the mystery, the illusion. Now all I see are the ones and zeroes, and all I think about is how to make them work in my favor (hmm, if I swap this ring for that ring, my crit rating will go up and I won't lose too much tac mastery...)

I suspect that things like the removal of Fog of War on maps and the pervasiveness of the Store probably haven't helped with your feeling of loss of immersion.

I also started playing this game because I like the Lord of the Rings world and because I figured that if I was going to try an MMO, it might as well at least be one in a setting that I'm familiar with and enjoy. I was definitely hooked very quickly, as I chose to subscribe a few days into my free trial and changed that sub to a lifetime one about a week later, but I've also lost some of the feeling of immersion that I once enjoyed so much.

I'm sure that part of it is the fact that I've been playing so long, but a larger part is - for me - the feeling that Turbine's Middle Earth has become less of a place to explore and enjoy and more of a fancy user interface for a microtransaction store. While I certainly understand that a company exists first and foremost to make profit, it doesn't really mitigate against the feeling that the need to make profit trumps the desire to produce a good product. (Nothing against the devs - I'm sure that they're doing the best they can within whatever constraints that they're given.)

Regarding your particular disillusionment - focusing on numbers and whatnot instead of exploration and enjoyment: improving a character is one of my favorite things about RPG-style games, so stuff like comparing two pocket items and trying to decide which is better is actually part of the fun for me. I can certainly understand how that'd lessen your fun, however, if it's taking away from the mystery and illusion that you enjoy.

[Andorric]

I don't know about other people, but myself, and many people in my kin/raiding group are distraught about the RNG loot system. I definitely love the fact that Master Looter and suicide lists are no longer required, but it seems like the drop rates for the class item legendary quality gear are abysmal, and drop at higher rates for some people than they do for others.

This is especially frustrating for people who are incredibly unlucky and whose only improvements to their build are in fact the class items or horse-lords items which share that same rarity.

In my raiding/instancing experience in u10.0.2 I've seen several people with multiple class items drop (some receiving the same item twice), but conversely, people who do the same amount of runs receiving absolutely nothing to show for their troubles.

This. There's actually a 2-page (currently) thread in the "Raids, Instances" forum detailing these exact problems, which you should check out and add your voice to, titled "Drop rates of FAs."

[Southpa]

Hmm, don't know if Southpa is praising or condemning these "real" gamers, but this comment illustrates a difficulty I have with the evolution of LOTRO, or at least, my playing of it.

Does it have to be either praise or condemnation? It wasn't either. It was merely my personal definition, as it was apparent I was being misrepresented yet again by someone who thinks they have me typecast.

I came to LOTRO because I am a hard-core, 30+ year Tolkien fan.

Same. Well, not quite the number of years, but Tolkien was what drew me to this game. The reason I stuck with it was because I found a sufficient challenge/reward system and a (once upon a time) very robust game system - which is now starting to feel like a watered-down representation of the original.

Unfortunately, having since "studied" the game, the mystery (well, any enjoyable mystery) is gone and it's all just mathematics now. I think often of the scene in The Matrix where Neo finally sees through the virtual world, and everything is just sequences of ones-and-zeroes, green against a black background. I don't often feel immersed in a virtual, Tolkein-esque world anymore. Mostly I feel like I'm playing a complicated mathematics game (what's my ICPR, ICH, BPE, phys mit, tac mit, resistance...at what morale percentage does this boss go into phase two...).

See, that's where part of the mystery is for some people. Tolkien lead me here, but there really was no mystery there. We've read the source material, right? However, the tangents they wrought in the first couple years of this game have not been even close to rivaled since. Mystery largely gone.

Then they have reduced many of the combat systems to the point that they are now fairly simplistic shadows of their former selves. You have devs telling Burgs and Hunters that they will need to pointedly "build for" things like tactical mitigation and make that "hard choice" when no other class really has to in any relative sense of the word. They apparently don't even understand how their game actually functions - or else they have a very confusing slant on the concept of "even playing field". Things like that leave people disillusioned. Not to mention dropping loot balls 3 updates in a row? Ugh. How about a same-day hotfix to prevent the "conspiracies" from ever getting a foothold. I mean, coincidentally, LI-related materials were on sale in the Store during that same time. Double ugh.

It's a darn good mathematics game, but do I enjoy the game more, having "studied" it to death? Hard to say, but probably not. I was probably happier as a soloer, exploring what I still perceived to be an immersive virtual world. The social experience that comes from raiding is great, but in order to be an effective raider I've had to master a lot of mechanics and become a "real gamer" per Southpa's definition, and I've lost something in the process--the mystery, the illusion. Now all I see are the ones and zeroes, and all I think about is how to make them work in my favor (hmm, if I swap this ring for that ring, my crit rating will go up and I won't lose too much tac mastery...)

Yeah, I can relate to that. But some of us were also able to find games within the game by travelling that route. Also, it used to be a better mathematics game. But face it, I haven't felt the mystery here in quite a while. Artwork aside (which is usually impressive), the writing just hasn't been anywhere near as good as what got me hooked. Couple that with the immersion breaks you guys have already spoken about and I can't blame anyone for it all to leave them wanting.

[Grimdi]

Because I'm not entirely sure that this was clearly posted, our goals for this revamp were as follows:

- Players should be able to focus solely on dps/tanking/healing for 2 minutes in combat with a modest investment in fate (In this case, about 400)
- Players should be able to last roughly 5 minutes in combat with a modest investment in fate, while relying on a mix of less costly skills, power restoration abilities, power-related traits, etc
- Player should be able to fight indefinitely with a substantial investment in Fate

@Turbine: This is the type of detailed information I'd love to see more often, ideally before such a revamp goes live. It would actually give people on Bullroarer a guideline if the changes are working as intendend, rather than guessing around (as is the case with the "are you happy" guidelines given so far). Also allows us to give feedback if that goal matches player expectations, or is completely out of sync with reality. Thanks Verizal for actually giving some useful information about what you wanted to achieve.

[SabrielofLorien]

re: New Skill Trees replacing the existing system...

There is a concept in Engineering of Continuity of Project/Product. In my days of yore, it referred to Those that remembered why something was done <that> way.

This was important because new hires did not know the architecture or design of a complex product and
needed to have their energies funneled into paths that did not require re-inventing the entire system.

Over time, employee attrition and layoffs, lead to the loss of <those who knew why>. The result was
the remainder and new managers were left to "re-invent the wheel" however best they could.

What they could do, was do what they had done in their previous positions. The very slots they had
left for this new more preferable spot. But they brought all their old baggage with them.

"This is how we did it at X."
"This is the way X handles this issue."

Of course, they were no longer at X, they are at Y and wanted Y to become X.

Without the entire structure underlying X to support these new wheels, the existing wheels tend to fall off along the way.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQKjj_FDI_M

[nornas]

This is our intent with the Fate revamp. One of our main goals is to allow players to fight infinitely, should they be willing to sacrifice some of their other offensive/defensive stats for Fate. With the changes coming in 10.1 we are by no means reverting Fate back to its previous state. It will still retain a higher contribution to ICPR than pre-u10, and this contribution will remain linear. We are simply readjusting it to the current state of itemization, where it will require more than a modest effort to reach this state of infinite fight time.

But there shouldn't be infinite fight time...! Where's the challenge in this? Kill, kill, kill, kill, no need for a break? Power + morale should both be needed for survival, not just morale. Infinite power makes this another "easy mode" part of the game. Why even have power at all anymore?

Prior to this change, I used to occasionally have power problems on my warden. That's why I have food, pots, Determination stance, and Darkness Before Dawn gambit. All of those helped offset the problem. Now I really don't have a problem and it sounds like it will never be a problem for me -- so I will have lots of health, everlasting power, almost maxed mitigations.... I'm superwoman!

Except I don't want to be superwoman. I want a challenge, and infinite power isn't helping. :/

[teck_you]

Infinite fight time aka infinite power should never be in a game it is a tipe of god mode. It makes the game so nerf mode you mind as well not play at all. If i can just fight and fight and fight where is the challenge? Yes why even have a power bar at all ? For that matter why even have a moral bar ? Why not take them both out? We don't need it since are healers have infinite power right? and can out heal the dmg are tanks take. Seems to me infinite fight time/infinite power is a fail idea and has no place in a game that's not for 2 year olds.

[Aohh]

You have to read it better.
Infinite power is there if you sacrifice something else.
With the next class revamps, you might be OOM if you are not willing to make such sacrifices.

Infinite power can only be attained at a threshold.

[flirtswithmediocrity]

With this revamp, Max Power is not intended to act as a means of power management (as Fate is), but rather an added buffer, much like the additional power that will-users receive per level. There are plans to take a look at this stat in the near future, however, and further address how we would like to offer it.......

Verizal. Thank you for stating the goals of the fate changes. More disclosure of "whys" I think will foster a better behaved forums. Building for primary stat,vitality,fate is better then the previous of building for primary stat,vitality. As a captain I look forward to having my net icpr normalized with other classes.

-Uta

[Ferthcott]

Infinite power can only be attained at a threshold.

Yup, if that means Infinite Power Guard is promptly squashed and Infinite Power Hunter is shredded by DD and/or entire group fails DPS race, then all is well. As long as relegating power management to special instances (eg. BG) only is not going to fly, that part is secure.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Just a little note here to please remember (when considering the fate changes with u10.1) to make sure the skill power costs of guardians are decreased, as we seem to currently be using power rather too fast, and requiring a pocket LM.

[Hallrandthir]

It will be interesting to see how the trait trees will work out.

By the sound of things, it must be something like what classic Diablo 2 had. I loved how it encouraged different builds.
Looking forward to more information on the subject.

[FundinStrongarm]

Q15: Midford - Can we get more news on the Player Council?

A15: Rick “Sapience” Heaton
The official announcement, information, and how to apply will be posted tomorrow.

Is there a link to this announcement? I may have missed it.

[ChromiteSwiftpaw]

Is there a link to this announcement? I may have missed it.

Pinned as a sticky in this forum. Maybe that's why you overlooked it?

Thread: We’re very pleased to announce the LOTRO Player Council!

And the URL for the web page: http://www.lotro.com/playercouncil

[FundinStrongarm]

Pinned as a sticky in this forum. Maybe that's why you overlooked it?

Thread: We’re very pleased to announce the LOTRO Player Council!

And the URL for the web page: http://www.lotro.com/playercouncil

Ugh. Thanks.

[hucklebarry]

Q6: Elemiire - Any plans for a 'combine all' and / or 'refine all' option for the Relic Master? Carpal Tunnel isn't fun.

A6: Matt “Scarycrow” Fahey
This is a very good suggestion. I'll ask around and see if it is a viable option.
--------------------------------

Is this the first time you are seeing this suggestion?

Additionally, I think there is a feeling that the issues of 'bugs' is being sidestepped. Its appreciated that bugs are fixed in every update, but that doesn't address the number of new bugs that show up with each update and the time it takes to solve them. Not to mention bugs that have been "bugged" for years and still exist. Further a known issues list that rarely lists all "known" issues and you can hopefully see why people feel this isn't being answered. Its comments like the above... that leave me feeling the suggestion forum and bug reporting tool aren't the solution.

Finally (for now ) wasn't a new pvmp map all but promised a few updates ago? And then it was scrapped? I'm confused about how something could make the announcement phase and then still not even be on the "near future" list a few years later. I'm glad you are being up front. This is much prefered. Perhaps you could address the big picture? Was this content that is sitting in an unfinished state? Has the design philosophy changed to the point that pvmp should not expect anything other than balance/tweaks in the foreseeable future?

[Armitas]

Q 34: Somehow we missed a number and skipped to 35. This is left blank for consistency with the chat.
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