TRANSCRIPT: Twitter Dev Chat August 21, 2013 - Class Changes

[PKCrichton]

A8a: Deviled_Egg: Legendary traits are now a part of each trait tree, and are available for purchase at the end of the tree. #LOTRO
A8b: There is also a Legendary Passive bonus that depends on your specialization.#LOTRO
A8c: This will be unlocked when you spend a certain number of points overall. #LOTRO

Question around the Legendary Traits. It was stated above that our Legendary Traits are now part of the trait trees and there are Legendary Passives bonuses that are tree dependant. So does that mean that those Legendary Traits that gave us skills are now mixed into the trees so as an example a LM's Ent's Go To War would be in their DPS tree while Friend of Eagle's would be in the Heal/Pet tree and our Sword and Staff is a passive thats boosts will change based on our other traiting?

[spelunker]

sounds like you just want a screenshot tbh.

Not in the slightest. They could say absolutely nothing about any specific class changes, or showing pictures of a skill tree up till Beta starts, and i couldn't care less. What we've heard however, explains very little about how class trait trees will work in any sense.

[Tallon617]

You misunderstood, I think. We will still have a red line and war speech, I suppose.

That aside, what REALLY worries me as a minstrel is the 'hybrid' potential that I have. I always trait 4 yellow (for max anthem duration, min anthem cooldown) and 3 blue for +crit heals, +healing on crit heals and no induction Raise the Spirit.

Now, say one of the blues that I like to trait is the last one on the tree, therefore requiring me to spend many points to unlock it, taking from my ability to trait other yellows.

Furthermore, let's assume I traited red to go DPS in the moors, but suddenly things get ugly and I need to drop War Speech and heal, for what I understand, I will not have all of my healing skills available and vice versa. This is bad.

My Lore Master is my next 'main', and I worry about being limited to some skills depending on how I trait.

I don't really understand what motivated them to fix something that isn't broken.

I didn't say they were taking away the DPS line I'm saying I don't want to be forced into one line or the other. I trait 4 red and 3 blue which makes me a hybrid. I did this because frankly I like to make my piercing cry stun and I like the boost to my armor etc. But I also want to be an effective healer when I need to. The skill trees have the potential to eliminate doing such things because we're going to need points to unlock whatever skills. This reads to me as being no different than how SWTOR and WoW do their skill trees. You need x amount of points to obtain x skills. If this is what they are doing then are they planning to refund the money paid for the skills we bough from our trainers? This just seems like a bad idea to me. The system isn't broken and this system is what makes LOTRO unique but now it's going to be like any other game it seems

The other thing that I'm confused about is the paying silver to switch specs. So if I want to change my spec in the field I have to pay for it? I don't think I understood that correctly.

[TinDragon]

The other thing that I'm confused about is the paying silver to switch specs. So if I want to change my spec in the field I have to pay for it? I don't think I understood that correctly.

You have to pay silver now, though it sounds like the silver cost is only for changing the physical traits around (where the points are actually spent). Switching from build to build appears to be free. (At least, that's how I read it.)

[frickinmuck]

While skills you no longer have access to on changing specs are removed from your toolbar, they are returned to the same locations when you switch back into the spec. I'd think you shouldn't have to re-arrange your toolbars too much, if at all.

At least, that's how it's functioning as of 5 seconds ago on my internal build. I needed to double-check.

Ooo - please no! I absolutely hate the mounted combat bars. I like to have a specific skill in a specific place based entirely on that individual build. For example, as a hunter, I may use rain of arrows a lot in one build, but only peripherally in another. That may totally influence (i.e. change) where I want rain of arrows placed on my bar. I would hate it if I had nicely laid out my yellow line build bar so that rain of arrows was on the far top left, and then swapped over to my red line build where I needed it front and center, only to find it in the far top left, where I'd placed it during yellow line play.

[TinDragon]

Ooo - please no! I absolutely hate the mounted combat bars. I like to have a specific skill in a specific place based entirely on that individual build. For example, as a hunter, I may use rain of arrows a lot in one build, but only peripherally in another. That may totally influence (i.e. change) where I want rain of arrows placed on my bar. I would hate it if I had nicely laid out my yellow line build bar so that rain of arrows was on the far top left, and then swapped over to my red line build where I needed it front and center, only to find it in the far top left, where I'd placed it during yellow line play.

That's why they added multiple sets of bars for skills! You can use one set for your yellow setup, and one set for your red setup.
He's saying that if you retrait and lose a certain skill (like Distracting Shot, which may be yellow line only or something), and then retrait later and get that skill back, it'll go back to exactly where it was on your bar before you lost it.

[Rhuvor]

Not in the slightest. They could say absolutely nothing about any specific class changes, or showing pictures of a skill tree up till Beta starts, and i couldn't care less. What we've heard however, explains very little about how class trait trees will work in any sense.

Hey, I'm way more clued in than I was before this Twitter question and answer session.

[frickinmuck]

That's why they added multiple sets of bars for skills! You can use one set for your yellow setup, and one set for your red setup.
He's saying that if you retrait and lose a certain skill (like Distracting Shot, which may be yellow line only or something), and then retrait later and get that skill back, it'll go back to exactly where it was on your bar before you lost it.

Yeah, I guess I will just have to wait and see how it's implemented on BR or after release. I distinctly remember having skills placement nightmares on my war-steed bar (haven't mucked about with those bars in awhile, so I can't recall the specific issues). I am a customization junkie and I like to have everything just so. I just hope there will be an ability to have complete control over the bars or I will be annoyed.

But now that I reread his comment I think I understand. It should be all good.

[Kruelle]

How will LM's get changed to keep their current Hybrid potential as they are?

My LM is my main, and reading this, it sounds like my moors build will be completely unavailable. My moors play style, i use almost every single one of my skills in longer fight (raid/group vs raid/group) and when 1v1, i use a good amount of them. Will i still be able to throw tar down, SI half my group, Melee/ranged debuff half the enemies, while over half of my traits red line, and so im still able to put out good dps, with WL stacked on me, and beacon of hope doing 1k+ with an opportunity to save a life with a crit? What will happen to my 1v1s where i need one of my skills but its not there? How will this affect my Yellow line for CC in raids? will I still be able to have my Ents go to War, and DPS skills along with the debuffs? can i still heal other raid members? Will CC even be necessary with the continuing trend of the game getting easier and easier (IE SoM, LM's/Burgs stuns were beyond valuable, while now any erebor raid t1 can be done EASILY with no stuns, roots etc.)?

This leaves me many questions, and i hope that somehow with the more 'advanced' classes, they leave a lot of the skills or combine them so that it doesnt make some freeps "underpowered" while others insanely "overpowered".

[Ithrien]

and beacon of hope doing 1k+

Dear god. I hope you are talking about a crit on a Beacon HoT...

[TinDragon]

My LM is my main, and reading this, it sounds like my moors build will be completely unavailable. My moors play style, i use almost every single one of my skills in longer fight (raid/group vs raid/group) and when 1v1, i use a good amount of them. Will i still be able to throw tar down, SI half my group, Melee/ranged debuff half the enemies, while over half of my traits red line, and so im still able to put out good dps, with WL stacked on me, and beacon of hope doing 1k+ with an opportunity to save a life with a crit? What will happen to my 1v1s where i need one of my skills but its not there?

You know, before I was against losing a lot of skills on LM. With that argument though, I'm all for it. Really, using the second most overpowered class in the Moors as an example of why you shouldn't lose skills is not a good idea if you want to actually keep those skills.

[bohbashum]

Not in the slightest. They could say absolutely nothing about any specific class changes, or showing pictures of a skill tree up till Beta starts, and i couldn't care less. What we've heard however, explains very little about how class trait trees will work in any sense.

we do seem to be getting a broad design look at it and no hard facts. but I'm sure thats due to it being very much still in the design, develop and bug fixing process. sure the core deep questions might not even be able to be answerd. and if they could be, it would mean nothing without context of how the whole system works in synergy

I think those sort of things you could go on forever asking. but having just 5mins of playing it you'll figure out most of it in seconds. even a screenshot of showing all whatever points spent, how the tree looks (where icons are and such you asked), if there are any dependencies if it's a loose tree (like, must have banana gun unlocked to get apple grenades), and how these "bonuses" work next to the real tree side. most of those deep questions could probably take too long to answer compared to just seeing it.

[Ithrien]

You know, before I was against losing a lot of skills on LM. With that argument though, I'm all for it. Really, using the second most overpowered class in the Moors as an example of why you shouldn't lose skills is not a good idea if you want to actually keep those skills.

Using "power in the moors" to decide what skills should/n't be available to any class in PvE is not a good idea either.

[Kruelle]

You know, before I was against losing a lot of skills on LM. With that argument though, I'm all for it. Really, using the second most overpowered class in the Moors as an example of why you shouldn't lose skills is not a good idea if you want to actually keep those skills.

No freep class in the moors right now is "overpowered" or "underpowered", they all have theyre roles and theyre specialty creeps that are easier to kill. Sure, an LM can be hard to kill with 3 WL's on him, but what do you say about a warden, who can do 2k bleeds and their leeches? What about RK's with their switching between glass lightning cannon/glass fire cannon (fasin) and insane healing output? how about a mini that can survive awhile? A hunters dps when built good is insane, champs have good dps while having really nice resists if built right, etc; though this is not the time to argue that, im just saying that for MY LM's play style, it'll be difficult without some of those skills that are used on a regular basis.

Dear god. I hope you are talking about a crit on a Beacon HoT...

I meant a normal beacon of hope, non crit, in red line trait, would do about 1k (havent logged onto my lm in awhile so this may be completely inacurate.)

[Kruelle]

Using "power in the moors" to decide what skills should/n't be available to any class in PvE is not a good idea either.

I personally PvE with the same skill trait as i PvP (mostly out of lazyness to retrait every time i swap over), but in PvE you should essentially be doing what an LM does in PvP on a much less intense scale (my opinion). An LM in a PvP group has to Debuff, Damage, Heal, SI, Etc, and in PvE he should be doing all those same things to make it easier on the rest of the group. I find PvP a way to Test your PvE abilities with much more of a challenge now with the instances getting easier and easier.

[TinDragon]

No freep class in the moors right now is "overpowered" or "underpowered"

Compared to creeps, they're all overpowered, and LMs/wardens definitely have advantages over the rest of the freep classes (LMs big one being the Water-lore skill, but by itself that wouldn't do it). You're deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

[Ryvick]

As expected this is just further fomenting my displeasure at the change from a Free Form trait system to a Bull-Pockey Tree system.

Every single tree system out there forces a player to get through some, if not mostly, weak traits/skills to get to the moderately good things. I say moderately good because in the face of "fairness" Devs are forced to futilely attempt to balance each tree so as to make them all some absurdly balanced form of BLAH! I'm not saying balance is a bad thing, I am saying it is far easier to balance a Free forming set of traits and allow us to form our own setup.

Every time there is a level increase the Devs will again need to completely re-balance the trees in order to accommodate more points being added into a fixed number system. I have seen it happen during every single expansion in other games with trees and it WILL happen here.

Add in that every class will only have a few skills basic to the class and a number of skills unlocked in the trees (which some will have and others will Not) and you have a royal recipe for disaster!

So sad to see this giant pile of Bull-Pockey about to blow up in the Devs faces!

[ManticoreFalco]

The devs have apparently had similar issues rebalancing the free-form trait system as we level up given that they haven't added to it (aside from tweaking some of the traits) in almost 5 years.

I don't entirely disagree with you, just pointing this out.

[Marswarlord]

The worst MMO's are the ones with tree systems. What a joke. Can't wait for Elder Scrolls.

[bohbashum]

You're deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

1v1 vs a hot spamming warden is tottly balanced

it's balanced because I rolled a warden, the warden is king in 1v1, therefore should always win 1v1's

the warden isn't so good in raid fighting, he can't aoe slow, or has one of the best -inc healing debuffs, nor can it aoe fear, dot like a crazy monkey and it's cooldown can't be exploited to mitigate 90% damage for way too long

the warden also has one of the worst ranged dps next to champion and guardian. and can't stack dots that can crit high rank creeps for 1k per tick for 21(?) seconds

./sarcasm_off...

I think you have a point. but you didn't mention minstrel crazy self healing ability or overly bubbly champion. I am also happy to see hybrid classes gooing down a notch. I'd be happy to see my warden be more focused in it's lines. even just playing warden in ONLY the dps stances you find the class much better balanced. in PvE it's much easier to balance content to classes. maybe we'll see that at a later date... but people always surprise us in finding close to "bad" classes very useful at there roll. there was a tank warden was the "####" class, but many made it amazing in SG and such. I'm sure they can't underpower them worse than that while players were still very dedicated to the warden.

I expect people to cry nurf at every little thing. but as a whole, it'll probably be much better balanced. many class have just not kept up as well as others.

I'm also sure why some rolls have gone out of date is because of the undemanding instances. CC seems to be missing lately, and we don't normally plan every trash pull like we used too, something is wrong. so *maybe* this is a nurf to us, to make instances harder, but classes more fun and have more dpeth in choice. utimatly focusing on the group acting like a group rather than a tank, healer, and 4 dps which seems to be the case for 70% of the 6mans

[spelunker]

we do seem to be getting a broad design look at it and no hard facts. but I'm sure thats due to it being very much still in the design, develop and bug fixing process. sure the core deep questions might not even be able to be answerd. and if they could be, it would mean nothing without context of how the whole system works in synergy

I think those sort of things you could go on forever asking. but having just 5mins of playing it you'll figure out most of it in seconds. even a screenshot of showing all whatever points spent, how the tree looks (where icons are and such you asked), if there are any dependencies if it's a loose tree (like, must have banana gun unlocked to get apple grenades), and how these "bonuses" work next to the real tree side. most of those deep questions could probably take too long to answer compared to just seeing it.

The same thing could be said for what they've told us thus far. None of it could be more clearly explained than we'll be able to figure out (those of us who can read tooltips and character sheets) when it goes live. All we've really learned is that we will have points to spend, rather than a limited number of slots to fill. Knowing how many skills will be gated behind traiting, what type of tree system will be used, and how much room for specialization or hybridization, or other options we might have will give us a much clearer view on how this will play out on live, without giving away any class specific secrets, or other changeable or sensitive information. I'm not really interested in exactly how many points we have to spend, I want to know what percentage of total traiting across all trees will we be able to fill. Mounted combat trees let us fill over half of all traits, which is VASTLY different from if we would only be able to fill, say 20% of available trait slots.

[Rimmer_Dall]

I just threw a bean bag on my jump to conclusions mat......it landed on the line between epic fail and puppies and rainbows.

....now i gotta dig out my wheel of speculation.

[Peresbert]

Will going fully down a tree(s) yield more or fewer gambits overall?

Now to quote Turbine Devs: Q19: @greendragoon Is there going to be any effort to streamline the Warden's massive (and convoluted) abilitiy list? #LOTRO
A19: DeviledEgg In short, yes. Some gambits are being trimmed, some are being placed in different specialization.
A19a: The total number of gambits will be decided by how you choose to specialize.

[Reximus]

Then put a little more thought into your responses then that. Your response was worded in such a way that someone could easily think this was a possibility, guess its a good thing I did not reply. Would really hate to have the community manager go out of his way to make me look like an ###. Reading too much into everything a dev posts is like breathing on gaming forums and you should know better then that.

You don't need the Community managers help, you are doing fine on your own.

More than enough thought was put into the reply, considering they haven't given thought to the topic past HD.

And the over reading into dev posts is a long time terrible habit that has resulted in countless whine threads from terrible people holding devs to unrealistic standards "divined" from a dev post like a charlatan divines ones future from tea leaves. Like rotten children, they need to have their hand slapped and be told no on a much more frequent basis, for the greater good of human civilization if no other reason.

[spelunker]

Now to quote Turbine Devs: Q19: @greendragoon Is there going to be any effort to streamline the Warden's massive (and convoluted) abilitiy list? #LOTRO
A19: DeviledEgg In short, yes. Some gambits are being trimmed, some are being placed in different specialization.
A19a: The total number of gambits will be decided by how you choose to specialize.

So in other words, turbine did not answer this, and you felt the need to show where they didn't answer it, to continue not answering it.