TRANSCRIPT: Twitter Dev Chat August 21, 2013 - Class Changes

[Svella]

The single-most important question I was looking to have answered is: Why do the classes need a revamp?

Whenever I log in my captain for crafting purposes, I look at around 50 (mostly) nondescript icons and cannot fathom how I understood that mess three years ago.
That's why I play a warden now. A couple of builders, a couple of javelin skills plus just a handful of utility skills. The gambits are stored in my brain by muscle memory and don't clutter my quickbars.

[Rainothon]

I kind of figured that might happen with whatever one I mentioned as an example. It happened to be the class I was fixing a bug with at the time of writing the post.

Wait? You use burglars to fix bugs with?

[Rainothon]

Thanks for the twitter dev chat, it was very informative at this stage. Good to read about the design vision behind the class changes. I can see the sense behind it and I think that it can work out especially great for min-maxer kind of players.

I do share the concern for those who wish to be more a jack of all trades. It would be great if it were possible to make jack of all trades builds also distinct in more than just their versability. I deliberately use the word distinct instead of powerful. I feel that much of class enjoyment comes from the class being distinctly different, having defining abilities. The system of trees tends to place these at the top of the tree, making jacks of all trades loose out on (most of) them. Maybe consider adding one or more distinct abilities for those who invest spreaded across the trees?

Looking forward to read about the design vision of the class changes in a more elaborate form in a developer diary.

Looking forward to future chats to go into more detail, can we at one point in the future expect dev chats for each class?

* passes some cookys over, while patting the thiefsy burglar on his hand, whispering: 'save some for Jinjaah' *

[Thranthir]

If possible could we get a little bit more information about the following..?

Q12: Zombielord: Will retraiting still require our character visiting a bard/class trainer? (Hope not) #LOTRO
A12: Jinjaah: Nope! Respeccing your trait tree can be done on the fly so long as you are out of combat. #LOTRO
A12a: Deviled_Egg: The process is similar to how you re-trait in Mounted Combat #LOTRO

Will this mean players will be able to respec during instances whenever they're out of combat?
This will be very useful and saves a lot of running back and forth through the instance when you want to try a new tactic with different builds.. though it might also bring in some balancing issues.. although it's already sort of possible these days by leaving the instance, go to a bard, respec and enter the instance again..

Will it also be possible in the Ettenmoors while out in the field or do we have to be inside GV or Grams?
I can imagine that chasing a group of freeps into a keep, having to back up a bit because of NPC's and after resetting or killing the NPC's find out that the freeps have respecced within the keep to full healing or dps and thus changing the possible power these freeps might bring will be pretty frustrating for creeps..

[bohbashum]

Seems, i will hate this change with passion, as all it will do for me will make me have LESS options in game, that currently.

lets not confuse number of skills with choice. they do not have to be connected at all. for example warden doesn't have many skills, but with combinations of gambits the warden has the largest amount of choice out there.

just because the adverage skill number is ~20, that could mean that with differant combinations of foundational rotation could change skills more than you would think. atm, some classes surprising don't have that many viable skills. hunter for example can live or maybe ~6 skills. thats bad, really bad... change that to many ~13 rotational skills, 7 "cooldowns" ish skills (longer than 1 min) and you have a lot more viaty what your common rotation is. while still getting deep play with mixing and matching core skills to fit into the situation.

so expect mechanical changes to the class too, what skills actually do, skills combined together but need to be unlocked to do different things, and not just reduced skills.

[Hatter_of_Bree]

lets not confuse number of skills with choice. they do not have to be connected at all. for example warden doesn't have many skills, but with combinations of gambits the warden has the largest amount of choice out there.

just because the adverage skill number is ~20, that could mean that with differant combinations of foundational rotation could change skills more than you would think. atm, some classes surprising don't have that many viable skills. hunter for example can live or maybe ~6 skills. thats bad, really bad... change that to many ~13 rotational skills, 7 "cooldowns" ish skills (longer than 1 min) and you have a lot more viaty what your common rotation is. while still getting deep play with mixing and matching core skills to fit into the situation.

so expect mechanical changes to the class too, what skills actually do, skills combined together but need to be unlocked to do different things, and not just reduced skills.

Im ok with ~20 skills.

What i said with 'less choice' is the hinted situation that players have some skills tied to some traits in trees, and with limited point pool to spend on three (also hinted at in dewchat) one will miss out some skills, if these are at the upper levels of all three trees, as opposed of today situation to us having all the skills except epic. Returning to the gambits, its like having only 1/3 of gambits buildable at any time, instead of all gambits. And also forcing players to invest in tree for each situation. Today, even if i have set up traits for one situation, i can still do other roles and have other skills available. Not so after the rewamp.

[Peresbert]

Q19: @greendragoon Is there going to be any effort to streamline the Warden's massive (and convoluted) abilitiy list? #LOTRO
A19: DeviledEgg In short, yes. Some gambits are being trimmed, some are being placed in different specialization.
A19a: The total number of gambits will be decided by how you choose to specialize.

So in other words, turbine did not answer this, and you felt the need to show where they didn't answer it, to continue not answering it.

May I first state that every warden I have talked to in-game understands what this means. Gambits will trimmed to make it easier to manage. Your gambits will also be split between specializations. The number of gambits you will have at the end of the tree will be determined by your specialization and those gambits will be streamlined for their specialization. They are making it simpler for you to play by cutting out the pork and giving you the bacon. So out the "X" many you have now, I suspect you'd have around "1/3X" after you spend your points. Most will be towards your main line, but I'm sure they'd let you pick up "Gambit Z" from another line. You can also have another spec tree ready to change into when OOC so you can switch from Tank to DPS and back again as much as you want while you are playing.

Now to address everyone:

Things like this will balance classes finally. You may cry but you must remember how easy things are now. Want it to continue down this path? No class should be a fellowship on its own. 6-mans should need 6 men with each of the 6 having their own role. Raids need to be difficult with each class having to do their own thing near perfect on T2&3. Everyone cries for harder content but our classes have become overpowered and in my mind do need to be retooled. Its hard to make the tier of content you want when the classes have gotten out of control.


P.S. This is my honest opinion from observing all that is happening in the game. I still think LM will be greatly hurt by this and will take a long time to figure out. To everyone who says I am dead wrong and/or this is all Devs fault anyway must remember goods/services (whatever you view it as) like this are made to what the consumer wants. What they have added to, and taken from, the classes over the years has been based on first player feedback, then alpha and beta feedback. If you are so adamant against everything going on now, you could have expressed your opinion in a thoughtful and thorough fashion. One opinion doesn't matter, but if you can outline your points and persuade people into what you believe by making reasonable points (not tinfoil hat ones) then you can gain some ground and get noticed. It does happen, and when you do it a professional way it will be more likely you, and those supporting you, would be taken seriously.

[Rothan117]

I love how so many people already "hate" the new system that we haven't even seen yet, either due to their own misunderstanding of the devs' comments or "because every other game with trait trees sucks".

How about we give it a chance first, and then react accordingly based on facts rather than conjecture?

Conversely, if everybody sits quietly without raising any questions, concerns or giving input and it goes live as a total broken mess and hordes of people leave, it will be too late. Or even if it works but a lot people hate it and leave, it will not be good for the game.

At the rate "facts" are being released, by the time folks have those, it will be far too late to effect any meaningful input or change. But then from the tone of the devs, it is already long past the date where the players have any meaningful input and it is a done deal except for some minor tweaks around the edges. Conjecture is all people have, the facts will come after release and at that point it is take it or leave it.

[bohbashum]

What i said with 'less choice' is the hinted situation that players have some skills tied to some traits in trees, and with limited point pool to spend on three (also hinted at in dewchat) one will miss out some skills, if these are at the upper levels of all three trees, as opposed of today situation to us having all the skills except epic. Returning to the gambits, its like having only 1/3 of gambits buildable at any time, instead of all gambits. And also forcing players to invest in tree for each situation. Today, even if i have set up traits for one situation, i can still do other roles and have other skills available. Not so after the rewamp.

I would actually say retraiting for each situation is a good idea. adding some depth we've really lost. we still have lotro open ended system here, simply retraiting with silver (the only real money sink we have at times). so if you get save slots, and moveing skills on the task bar is little, I don't see much damage done.

they need to make all 3 trait lines viable. we already have skill gating in place, this is probably just more of it. it sucks that a red burglar feels 70% good enough to debuff. as long as each line is fun in there own way, again I see no damage done.

why should a red captain be great at healing?
why should a red champion be great at aoe?
why should a red minstrel be great at healing himself?

some thing need skill gating for some balance, between the lines. it's very cookie cutter at times with builds. while you could go 1/2 traits differant, you still feel like you could have whole weeks of play sessions in one line and not need to change. is that good depth of customisation? no. while we might be going into a more cookie cutter set up, at least the other trait lines will be viable and classes more diverse in options. can do anything, but not all at once.

remember that the biggest balancing facter is not what it can do, but what it can't do. you need to have trade-offs. and some skills just don't fit into certain lines if they want to move into more pure classes/rolls.

[andracy]

another annoying stuff i think it will happen ... with all have learned the skills positions on our bars. Now let imagine how we receive the skills when we reset and use the points from warsteed traits. All the skills will take random positions on our skill bars. That will happen every time when we will reset the new skill tree. So even if we do that in an raid between pulls we will still have to rearange the skills everytime, right?

[TinDragon]

another annoying stuff i think it will happen ... with all have learned the skills positions on our bars. Now let imagine how we receive the skills when we reset and use the points from warsteed traits. All the skills will take random positions on our skill bars. That will happen every time when we will reset the new skill tree. So even if we do that in an raid between pulls we will still have to rearange the skills everytime, right?

RockX commented on that in this very thread. Go read his post.

[dietlbomb]

I just remembered something else that was nagging me about the trait trees. We will be getting something on the order of 50 trait points to spend per configuration. Each configuration will have 1 choice of a specialization and grant approximately 7 to 15 skills. Having to spend 50ish points to unlock 15 skills has the risk of being needlessly complicated.

[TinDragon]

I just remembered something else that was nagging me about the trait trees. We will be getting something on the order of 50 trait points to spend per configuration. Each configuration will have 1 choice of a specialization and grant approximately 7 to 15 skills. Having to spend 50ish points to unlock 15 skills has the risk of being needlessly complicated.

I assumed it was like that because some skills are now also acting as traits, so in addition to "Now for Wrath" being a trait, "Valiant Strike" is now also a trait, just one that grants a skill instead of a bonus. I think that's why the devs haven't been more specific with the number of skills yet, since you can choose to dabble in more skills, or in more boosts.

[BigBack]

Greetings....

I asked a bit earlier in this thread about passive class and racial skills referencing the 2% damage bonus to weapons. I haven't seen a dev response as of yet and I was just wondering if a dev or Sapience could discuss how passive and racial skills will be affected with the class changes? Or at least confirm that a note was taken and this will be addressed in forthcoming information.

Will we still have to earn some of these passives and racial skills via killing mobs or will they be present in the new trees somehow instead? I really, really want a 2h hammer bonus for my Captain!

Thanks,
Jeremy

[pvdtheking]

Well to me things sound very much like turbine have ripped off the rift.....that said i can see the advantages of the changes (champs/cappys tanking for example). I am however a bit pissed off at the fact we...as subscribers only get 2 builds for free and have to buy the 3rd.....another way of making money i suppose, but it is unfair to subscribers. Maybe f2p people should only get 1 build?...if theyre getting 2 then paying/lifers etc should get 3!

Ill use my champion for example....i use a cross between 3 red/3 yellow/1 blue atm...how will this effect which skills i get access to? To me the changes sound like they will force people to go all red/yellow/blue and not a mix between them.....my burg is another that mixes, heck my guardian also....5 blue/2 yellow iirc. If we dont spend the correct ammount of points in the blue line for example we wont get access to the legendary skills....your stopping classes being flexibile in raids/instances if they must stick to one trait line.

Limiting the amount of skills - yeah this is fine for idiots...people in lotro aren't dumb and its pretty insulting to think you believe we cant handle more than 20 skills at the same time, you will also be denying people access to skills they use in-game all the time...for example an lm traited red for solo levelling may not have any stuns/roots (as they would be yellow-line) they also may no be able to heal they're pets as thats a blue-line skill....that put with the fact we only get 2 builds saved (without spending money) again limits people!

Meh....things are gonna take a lot of getting used to....im a big believer in the phrase 'if it ent broke...dont fix it!'...lotro isnt broke, but may just end up that way come helms deep. I said helms deep would make-or-break lotro for me, in terms of instances/raids (end-game content), but these changes may do it also. Hope it doesnt end up hat way.

[Grimdi]

I asked a bit earlier in this thread about passive class and racial skills referencing the 2% damage bonus to weapons. I haven't seen a dev response as of yet and I was just wondering if a dev or Sapience could discuss how passive and racial skills will be affected with the class changes? Or at least confirm that a note was taken and this will be addressed in forthcoming information.
Will we still have to earn some of these passives and racial skills via killing mobs or will they be present in the new trees somehow instead? I really, really want a 2h hammer bonus for my Captain!

I'd say with the silence on that topic so far: don't expect changes. There isn't enough racial stuff to justify its own tree, and fitting the different racial features into each class tree in a meaningful way is a bit tricky too, as some features (like dwarf block bonus) are plain useless for certain classes. And revamping racial traits doesn't seem to be on the agenda for HD.

[Vandervahn]

...
Ill use my champion for example....i use a cross between 3 red/3 yellow/1 blue atm...how will this effect which skills i get access to? To me the changes sound like they will force people to go all red/yellow/blue and not a mix between them.....

You trait rainbow at the moment and with that give up a lot of specialization already. The Twitter chat states that you will be able to branch out as well instead of specializing. So I dont see why this sounds any different for you.

[Rufkin]

Members of the LOTRO team answered over 40 questions during a recent live developer chat on twitter. The focus was on the Class Changes coming with Helm’s Deep this fall.
Q3: Leixy: Using war-steeds as a template, how will trait points be earned and spent on trait trees? #LOTRO
A3: HoarseDev: You’ll earn a point every other level. You’ll also earn points from some deeds. #LOTRO
A3a:You’ll choose a specialization at an early level that will grant specific bonuses and affect the cost of traits as you spend them #LOTRO

I thought I was going to like the change to trait trees, until this is what I gathered from the transcript. Besides the trait points that you receive every other level, you will be required to earn trait points by completing old skill trait deeds in order to max out a character. OR THIS, will it be possible that the number of trait points we earned to be a larger number than the number we will be allowed to spend?

Do you mean to tell me that those skill traits deeds, the most obnoxious grind in the game, are going to be required in order for me to max out my already maxed out character?!

I respectfully request that the Devs publish a list of exactly what deeds we will be expected to complete for trait points if we will need all of said deeds to bring our characters back to 85 when the expansion releases.

Otherwise, here is an example of what I foresee, my son's level 85 loremaster that has only completed the skill trait deeds that he wanted to equip, is going to be severely gimped with this expansion. He won't have access to all the skills he already does, let alone all the skills necessary to be competitive at level 85. So we either need to finish those deeds that will grant trait points before the expansion, or we need to reconsider buying the expansion at all.

[TinDragon]

Well to me things sound very much like turbine have ripped off the rift.....that said i can see the advantages of the changes (champs/cappys tanking for example). I am however a bit pissed off at the fact we...as subscribers only get 2 builds for free and have to buy the 3rd.....another way of making money i suppose, but it is unfair to subscribers. Maybe f2p people should only get 1 build?...if theyre getting 2 then paying/lifers etc should get 3!

You're confusing builds with trait lines. In theory, all three trait lines are free to everyone, as they stand now. The two "builds" that everyone gets for free is two slots to save your trait setups in, so one build can be your AoE build and one can be your single target build, or something along those lines. You can purchase more of those, but it doesn't give you access to any more traits, it just gives you access to more slots to save different configurations in. Most people don't ever retrait, so two is already one higher than a lot of people will need.

Do you mean to tell me that those skill traits deeds, the most obnoxious grind in the game, are going to be required in order for me to max out my already maxed out character?!

If you've already done the deeds, you get the points automatically. If you haven't done the deeds, then your character isn't maxed out right now.

[mr_toad]

Interesting tweets, the new skill system has me cautiously optimistic. More than anything else, I think/hope the devs behind this realize what a monumentally important task they have on their hands and not to screw it up. As someone who only plays hunter, the few hunter tidbits released so far seem very promising.

Very entertaining to see all the complaints and doomsaying. Any massive change like this is going to be massively disruptive to the forum feng shui. I predict that the loudest complainers will play LOTRO the most when Helm's Deep launches.

And Turbine, I expect you to have this game perfectly optimized for my $300 Celeron laptop with integrated graphics, 5400 rpm hard drive, 2 gig of ram, and a dialup connection. Hurry up and fix your lag already, sheesh!

[morrowbreeze]

Its your game made for us to play in. As I see it, changes are made to try to improve game quality (sometimes successful). I accept that. My hunter Hobbit could use a revamp for the better. As long as I find this game fun to play You wont get any arguments. Nevertheless, lag is a major problem at the highest levels.

[Namesse]

Considering the viability of 3 distinct roles for each class, the thought of building 3 LIs (x2?!) for each character to be truly effective at each role kind of makes my stomach tighten, not to count an armour set to complement it.

Regardless of what a group wants, I'm not going to set my captain up as a tank because I'm not prepared to do that role, ever, with proper LIs and armour (not to mention even carrying around 2 armour sets in my bags, just in case I need to switch roles).

That's ok with me, I don't build for those roles today, but for those who get excited about captain tanks or hunter cc, you might want to ponder what it will take to be truly effective in those scenarios.

[TinDragon]

Considering the viability of 3 distinct roles for each class, the thought of building 3 LIs (x2?!) for each character to be truly effective at each role kind of makes my stomach tighten, not to count an armour set to complement it.

Regardless of what a group wants, I'm not going to set my captain up as a tank because I'm not prepared to do that role, ever, with proper LIs and armour (not to mention even carrying around 2 armour sets in my bags, just in case I need to switch roles).

That's ok with me, I don't build for those roles today, but for those who get excited about captain tanks or hunter cc, you might want to ponder what it will take to be truly effective in those scenarios.

Captain may have been a bad example for you to use. It's one of the few classes that's already set up like that. :P On my main captain, I have 9 distinct LIs for different roles (2 healing, 2 buffing, 2 DPS, and 2 tank, plus the bridle). In addition to the tank gear I carry around (which takes up a bag on its own) I also carry around 8 other pieces of armour to improve my buffing and healing. (Normally I wear 4 Hytbold Healer and 2 Perseverance, but I also carry around 4 Tognir for the Motivating Speech buff and 4 pieces of Hytbold Charge for the +5% on Revealing Mark.)

[Sthrax]

You trait rainbow at the moment and with that give up a lot of specialization already. The Twitter chat states that you will be able to branch out as well instead of specializing. So I dont see why this sounds any different for you.

Right now, while you do lose some specialization and the ability to slot some legendaries, you are not actively penalized for that choice. The new system is designed to actually penalize you for not specializing (trees outside your specialization have a heavier cost AND you lose skills from those trees that you currently can use).

This is an Lotro NGE, and this game really can't afford that.

[TinDragon]

The new system is designed to actually penalize you for not specializing (trees outside your specialization have a heavier cost).

I have read pretty much every bit of information released about the class revamps and have never seen a dev state that trees outside your specialization have a heavier cost. Can you cite your source?