Developer Diary : Hunter Class Changes in Helm’s Deep

[Cordovan_]

By Jinjaah


Hey Hunters! It’s been an honor to work on this class for the revamp and am very excited with the changes we made overall. One thing that we wanted to address was the lack of distinct feel between the various lines pre U12. The hunter overall felt like the Bowmaster was the core of the class and venturing into the other lines was being used to supplement it... (Read More)

[plapete30]

First... Begin requisite whining now..

[BackAgainAndThere]

"...to kite like no other."

Unless hunters do a lot of kiting in PvMP, I don't see how improving kiting will be that useful. I guess Bowmaster it is!

[jchudz]

So then there are now skills that are ground targeted...
Hunters can shoot on the move
and hunters have buffs attached to the ToF line

this seems familiar somehow...

[zagreb000]

After reading all the dev diaries the guardian class to me seems to be the one getting improved the most... Hunter close second... My opinion at least...

[lwk1138]

The hunter overall felt like the Bowmaster was the core of the class and venturing into the other lines was being used to supplement it.

This is all you have to read to know that the new hunter dev has no connection with the class. While Bowmaster was a viable traitline, most hunters in the know (not all but most) used huntsman. It was definitely the best end-game (Raiding) line.

Credibility lost.

[Whart]

Underwhelmed. I guess it's good to see ToF get some love, but I really don't see the point of the other changes. I play huntsman now but sounds like bowmaster will be the way to go from now on. Why exactly would I need to kite when I can kill just about anything before it gets near me?

[Inkfinger]

One thing that we wanted to address was the lack of distinct feel between the various lines pre u12. The hunter overall felt like the Bowmaster was the core of the class and venturing into the other lines was being used to supplement it. With the changes, we focused in on what made each line unique and really expanded upon it.

This however can be somewhat mitigated by investing some points into the Huntsman to get some additional induction reduction and focus generation from Quick Shot.

While the huntsman damage may feel less explosive, investment into the Trapper line to allow traps to be placed at range allow this specialization to kite like no other.

The Trapper has many options of dipping into other trees to help round out their build depending on their needs

Uhh... *cough* ?


Don't get me wrong, I actually like the changes. I actually am looking forward to playing my hunter again. I'm just not sure you accomplished what you were aiming for.

Also do you guys even bother proof reading any more, or are rough drafts the new final draft?

[Gwuryn]

Uhh... *cough* ?


Don't get me wrong, I actually like the changes. I actually am looking forward to playing my hunter again. I'm just not sure you accomplished what you were aiming for.

Also do you guys even bother proof reading any more, or are rough drafts the new final draft?

Wow! I was just about to post a reply almost verbatim to yours because I noticed the exact same thing about each line being unique and having a distinct feel, but we're able to experience all lines by adding points to them. Gee, thanks for stating the obvious in the diary and completely contradicting the initial statement.

As an editor, the blatant typos and grammatical mistakes made me cringe as I read this diary.

[LethalLethality]

So, I main a hunter and have been looking forward to this Dev Diary. I must wonder, are the mobs going to change with the class changes as well? Because if not, I see very little reason for most hunters to change what they're doing. We know Bowmaster, it's the go-to build for most hunters I've seen, and if the mobs aren't going to act any differently, why exactly would one switch from what they know to a mobile lower damage Huntsman or a CC Trapper?

Unless they remove any skills that root or stun from the trait line (Rain of Thorns, Distracting Shot) or Stances (particularly Precision) that keeps focus management much easier, I do not see a reason not to be Bowmaster now like I've always been. I never used traps as a hunter as I could kill most stuff before they got two hits in on me and I'm used to not moving to attack. I hope there's some PvE incentive to want to change.

[guydude]

I have waited for a long time to see some hope for the hunter class, to combat against the rising effectiveness of other classes in PvE and PvMP while the hunter remains at a stagnant point that has risen little since the remove of a hard Agility cap. And we are given this... A diary that summarizes what the three trait groups already do. Very little explanation of what will change, other than that traps would be buffed (but is this a universal trait tree buff, or is it only effective in Trapper of Foes?). Jinjaah does hit on this at least - that traps are effectively useless outside of open landscape. Even if you did trait for them, you're gimping yourself for DPS.

Some of the perks to this build are that among the hunter builds, they have the longest range

I did a double take when I read this part. Out of the three existing trait lines we have, none of them ever reduce our range. Not one trait does such. Is this hinting at that we are having our max ranged nerf if we aren't in Bowmaster? Or is this just a sign of the disconnect or misunderstanding that Jinjaah has? If this is actually a nerf to range outside of Bowmaster, the Hunter class as a whole is doomed.

The Huntsman is a mid-range mobile harasser

Again, please tell me this is a misunderstanding and not a nerf to max range. The point of Huntsman is to be mobile and not have the slight raw damage percentage increases that Bowmaster traits offer, not to cut your range in exchange for some minor mobility, not to mention that we have no skills that lose their induction when traiting for Huntsman, and if this remained true in HD we'd be even more nerfed. There is also no mention of skills losing their inductions for Huntsman in HD, which would still mean that Huntsman still is focused on being stationary to do damage, just like with Bowmaster. If this is true come HD, there will still be no more variety between Huntsman and Bowmaster than there is today pre-HD.

There is little distinction of what change will occur, and I have no more hope for Hunters now than before I read this Diary. If there are real, actual changes and alterations to the class, please do not hold out on the community. All this says is a brief summary of what Bowmaster and Huntsman do already, and what slight changes are made to ToF. I am disappointed in reading this, and I hope there is more than just this.

[BillyDale]

I think this seems like a good direction for the hunter and these changes could be quite interesting. I got the feeling that possibly in Huntsman the inductions will still be there but moving will not interrupt them? ("mobile-induction harasser") Also, yes there is a difference in range between Huntsman and Bowmaster. I believe that was at least hinted at before if not directly stated before this diary.

I have not played my hunter as much recently but this diary piqued my curiosity and has me excited to see where they're going with this.

[Macroscian]

Nobody enjoys kiting. Dev could simply have asked. Once.

Traps get LM debuff and cc...ok? Where's my pet? And AOE slotted in with traps, because of whatever obscure reason.

At cap, my hunters have np shooting on the move, they just can't generate Focus very well and it's really just the one ranged skill.

Low cut root, because what you really want to do is kite. Low cut massive BLEED thank you. POISON. MAJOR DPS. My goodness, where will the nerf stop?

Bye-bye AOE if I enjoy shooting stuff, that's how I read it. Bye-bye new damage, hello fiddly running around in order to kill. Everything feels much better when you take 10 seconds to kill a mob instead of 2. I can't read this without laughing out loudly and cruelly after the bit about kiting. Zero respect for or insight into my class means no respect back. There is a full thread of suggestions about improving heals and the agile rejoinder makeover provided a LOT by way of fixing that. The slow and painful tiny heal you have to slot to use is poor, easily interrupted, weak actual healing effect compared with the new 'we let you add morale to make up for loss of passives' (it heals about 1/3 of the needed effect at cap if hunter has around 7-8k morale) ---------------------------------------- the list goes ever on, as they say.

I don't get it. Do not fix! Hands off!

[LethalLethality]

I got the feeling that possibly in Huntsman the inductions will still be there but moving will not interrupt them?.

That or there are no inductions but slightly longer cooldowns, but then that would mean their skills wouldn't benefit from induction buffing legacies on LIs.

[BackAgainAndThere]

There is also no mention of skills losing their inductions for Huntsman in HD, which would still mean that Huntsman still is focused on being stationary to do damage, just like with Bowmaster.

I think what they are trying to say is that we will be able to load inductions while we are mobile.

"Being able to shoot on the move..."

We can already use damage skills that requires focus on the move, so I think they are implying "induct on the move."

[jchudz]

also come to think of it AoE and CC aren't the best of friends.... why are they tied together in the same tree?

unlesss... there's some kind of change to cc breaking that we aren't privy to yet

[WBS]

I did a double take when I read this part. Out of the three existing trait lines we have, none of them ever reduce our range. Not one trait does such. Is this hinting at that we are having our max ranged nerf if we aren't in Bowmaster? Or is this just a sign of the disconnect or misunderstanding that Jinjaah has? If this is actually a nerf to range outside of Bowmaster, the Hunter class as a whole is doomed.

Or perhaps the Huntsman gets a traited buff to maximum range on top of the passive skill? We really won't know until we see the whole thing, or the NDA is lifted on the beta. I do agree though that the statement about the Huntsman being "mid-ranged" may well mean that it'll be a nerf.

Again, please tell me this is a misunderstanding and not a nerf to max range. The point of Huntsman is to be mobile and not have the slight raw damage percentage increases that Bowmaster traits offer, not to cut your range in exchange for some minor mobility, not to mention that we have no skills that lose their induction when traiting for Huntsman, and if this remained true in HD we'd be even more nerfed. There is also no mention of skills losing their inductions for Huntsman in HD, which would still mean that Huntsman still is focused on being stationary to do damage, just like with Bowmaster. If this is true come HD, there will still be no more variety between Huntsman and Bowmaster than there is today pre-HD.

I think it's fairly obvious, and I think it may even have been stated in a previous post, that there will be a trait in the new Huntsman tree that enables the inductions from skills to build while moving.

[Aidus]

Howdy Ho!

Been Huntering since release, had the bag full of bows and all. So I have seen every modification and recreation of the hunter we have had... that being said here I go.

First, while I can't argue that "Bowmaster" seems like the core of the class if you mean at the core of the hunter when created, before the great revamp and introduction of trait lines. I can tell you that most Hunter's started running deep in "Huntsman" Trait lines starting the great "Focus-Burn" debates several years ago, and that has not changed much. 4 Bowmaster/3 Huntsman is common, 4 Huntman/3 Bowmaster is more-so. So from a historical perspective I agree, from a practical perspective not at all. Even before trait lines and red and blue traits hunters traited to hit hard and hit fast from as far away as possible, at release we were the ONLY ranged DPS and Glass Cannon.

I will be curious to see how much they have buffed the bow master line to make it worth investing in. The concept of that line makes sense but that concept for Bowmaster has always been the high damage dealer and then because it was to much damage, they stacked threat multipliers and power sucking penalties to the point that is was benched in favor of the Huntsman/Huntsman Hybrid. So if those issues arent addressed differently than in previous attempts this reincarnation of the Bowmaster will gather dust like the previous attempts have. I would love to have Bowmaster Hunters get back to the Realm of ZOMG! Crits so I hope this is handled right.

Huntsman is pretty much where I am now, properly traited and geared the induction for Swift-Bow can be lowered to less than a second. Some adaption of the Huntsman line is pretty main stream with Precision stance and the buff to the crits there being used with the crit mag buffs to make this a highly adaptable dps build. I would venture to say most raiding hunters would agree that we can do more dps longer in this build than we can in the deep bowmaster build. The mention of a "mobile induction harrasser" makes me very interested to see this build out in action for certain.

Trapper? Meh.... it has rarely been useful or regularly used for CC the limitations to great for most hunters to adopt. and frankly the CC even 5 deep in Trapper is not worth the sacrifice to get there. So for this to be a truly viable build out the CC will need to the greatly enhanced and the DPS in this line as well. Why have a hunter go CC unless they are on par or nearly on par with the other CC classes in all facets.

In short it sounds exactly like how they intend for the trait lines to be when they were introduced (less the increased Range of the Bowmaster), which means with the base range of the hunter has been changed or the Bowmaster can truly reach out and touch someone. I hope this finally allows the hunter to actually have a viable second role in groups; possibly even a more.

Can't wait to test it all out. Thanks for the update.

[bastiat1]

Seems like RockX and Jinjah know what they are doing.

[zalladi]

The hunter overall felt like the Bowmaster was the core of the class and venturing into the other lines was being used to supplement it.

*Sigh*, I am guessing you didn't play the hunter.


Huntsman sounds like it will be the most popular line, and Trapper of Foes will still be the least favourite, and undoubtedly, least useful. I still think you should have changed the idea of a ''trapper'' build entirely.

[Armaius]

This isn't specifically related to the Hunter dev diary (though the changes sound interesting - inductions on the move? Instant traps for skills? Cool.), but I'm getting frustrated with how these diaries are being handled. These are very significant changes to the classes you're proposing and putting forward and you're giving us little tiny dev diaries.

I was really expecting (and hoping) for lengthy detailed diaries (a la Orion and the Mini with RoI), showing us screenshots and giving us a detailed breakdown of each tree: what's changed and what hasn't? Show us the old traits and how they've changed. Show us the new traits, explain each one. Dev diaries are supposed to be informative - showing what's changed and explaining it in detail while building excitement for the changes. One leads to the other. Orion's dev diary got me really excited to dust off my mini because those changes sounded amazing. My reaction to reading his diary: "Oh my god! I can't wait to try this out!"

These diaries are leaving me like..."Hooray, I guess. We're changing up the classes."

You really need to be more informative and flesh these diaries out way more than a few paragraphs.

/steps off soapbox.

[Gibraisia]

I for one really like the new changes, though it does seem like the dev diary was a bit short :/

I guess what im wondering most now is, How will the hunters range be affected? I know Huntsman will have less range, but if Bowmaster is going to be the highest range, where does that leave trapper of foes?

Is it going to be a 25m, 40m, 50m build? or 25m 30m 40m.

*Note i cant imagine them giving hunters EVER less than 25m range, even for huntsman

[Lifthil]

[Bowmasters] have the longest range...

The Huntsman is a mid-ranged mobile harasser...

The Trapper of Foes...focuses on sustained damage, AoE, and crowd control...

So what exactly are the changes to range? I believe most bow skills currently have a range of 40m. Will only Bowmasters be able to shoot that far and other builds only 30m, or will 40m be the minimum and Bowmasters can spec to shoot farther?

It's a Trap!

Thank the maker!
With that in mind, will there be any changes to consumable traps? Some of them seem really nice, but they're only effective against certain level enemies and have level gaps (min level _5 / most effective against mobs _0 or lower), limiting their benefit compared to the ore used to make them (which is probably better spent elsewhere anyway).

[bastiat1]

This isn't specifically related to the Hunter dev diary (though the changes sound interesting - inductions on the move? Instant traps for skills? Cool.), but I'm getting frustrated with how these diaries are being handled. These are very significant changes to the classes you're proposing and putting forward and you're giving us little tiny dev diaries.

I think the brevity is deliberate and designed to cater to the current attention span of the casual player base.

[Whart]

This isn't specifically related to the Hunter dev diary (though the changes sound interesting - inductions on the move? Instant traps for skills? Cool.), but I'm getting frustrated with how these diaries are being handled. These are very significant changes to the classes you're proposing and putting forward and you're giving us little tiny dev diaries.

I was really expecting (and hoping) for lengthy detailed diaries (a la Orion and the Mini with RoI), showing us screenshots and giving us a detailed breakdown of each tree: what's changed and what hasn't? Show us the old traits and how they've changed. Show us the new traits, explain each one. Dev diaries are supposed to be informative - showing what's changed and explaining it in detail while building excitement for the changes. One leads to the other. Orion's dev diary got me really excited to dust off my mini because those changes sounded amazing. My reaction to reading his diary: "Oh my god! I can't wait to try this out!"

These diaries are leaving me like..."Hooray, I guess. We're changing up the classes."

You really need to be more informative and flesh these diaries out way more than a few paragraphs.

/steps off soapbox.

Agreed 100%. The guardian diary makes some vague reference to threat changes that could completely change the way MANY classes are played (including hunters), with no information whatsoever on what these changes are. Hunter diary talks about changing range, which is kind of a big deal for a ranged class, but doesn't say what the ranges will be for each line. We know they are removing skills but they don't say which ones, and they don't say which skills will be restricted to certain lines.

What's the point in releasing a diary that doesn't give us real information that will allow us to make decisions about how to set up our characters when the changes go live? If the goal is simply to make us excited somehow by doing a 'rah rah good changes coming' cheer, it's missed the mark for me. All I come away with is 'so now I need to switch to bowmaster in order to play at the usual range.' Big deal, I would have figured that out on my own.