Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Captain

[aardnebby]

Sorry, I haven't been in Beta so this is all new to me...

so I can choose HoH as spec to get low cost for the healing skills in it and spend additional points in LtC but to a higher cost
But then I will also get the HoH tactics buff?

And if I chose LtC as spec and get the Ltc tactics buff, all HoH skills will cost more, right?

/Azt

This is correct.

Suck it up with HoH tactics, or lose the other benefits of the HoH line and pay double cost on buying HoH skills by picking a different spec.

[Aztaroth_SWE]

Suck it up... Lol I guess so...
All-in-all I'm looking forward to the changes though, could be intresting

Ty for clarifying!

/Azt

[bohbashum]

so I can choose HoH as spec to get low cost for the healing skills in it and spend additional points in LtC but to a higher cost
But then I will also get the HoH tactics buff?

And if I chose LtC as spec and get the Ltc tactics buff, all HoH skills will cost more, right?

when you open the tree trait panal you need to choose a specelist, blue red or yellow, you are pretty much garenteed the set bonuses connected to this too.

after that you choose where to spend your points whether that be your main line (same as spec) as traits will cost 1 each or off-spec which will cost 2 each. as a general rule of thrumb most lines have about 51 traits in them but it's probably more realistic to spend 30-40 traits in your main line then the rest in an off-spec.

so yes if you want to you can spec blue and trait red, or, spec red and trait blue. either way is possible but you really need to play around with the builds to see which one is better. each will have pro's and con's but I do think hybrid builds are very viable still. because you can re-trait any time out of combat, there is no reason not to make specialist builds for fights.

[Theorl]

Banners didn't become skills. You still equip a standard in your ranged slot just like always. You just can't "drop" it anymore. (Using an equipped banner no longer does anything.) So a standard equipped gives the Captain its buffs just like before... but now you can *also* summon a herald.

We got 3 NEW skills (one per spec) that let you "throw" a banner onto an enemy target. It harms the foe and all the foes within the area, and helps your friendlies in some way while within the area. While you cast the skill on an enemy target, it is actually a stationary area of effect thing that just happens to sit where that enemy was when it hit the enemy.

The issue tough, as it stands now, is that the "planted" bonus that the Moors banner gives is gone :P It doesnt give the captain the "Buffs just like before" We actually lose whats good about the moors-banner. On beta now, its identical to a War-banner. ergo, no point in buying it.
- For those that do not know, the Ettenmoors banner gives ~1500 tact/phys mit when planted on the ground. This bonus is lost on the current beta build, and that makes the banner identical to a standard War-banner.

EDIT: Ofc, no lvl95 moors items are added yet. Hopefully they will change the stats on the lvl 95 moors banner in some way.

[Elrantiri]

The issue tough, as it stands now, is that the "planted" bonus that the Moors banner gives is gone :P It doesnt give the captain the "Buffs just like before" We actually lose whats good about the moors-banner. On beta now, its identical to a War-banner. ergo, no point in buying it.
- For those that do not know, the Ettenmoors banner gives ~1500 tact/phys mit when planted on the ground. This bonus is lost on the current beta build, and that makes the banner identical to a standard War-banner.

EDIT: Ofc, no lvl95 moors items are added yet. Hopefully they will change the stats on the lvl 95 moors banner in some way.

As much as we have lost the 1500 phys/tact mitigation we've gotten a herald with 3% mitigations, which IMO is better.

[aardnebby]

As much as we have lost the 1500 phys/tact mitigation we've gotten a herald with 3% mitigations, which IMO is better.

And lost what, 1500+ morale from banner of hope after multiplications which is what that 3% mitigations is _supposed_ to be replacing. The ettens banner has no direct replacement (much as I disagree with PvE boosting stuff only available from PvP, that doesn't change the facts).

Stop trying to snow the issue.

[Elrantiri]

And lost what, 1500+ morale from banner of hope after multiplications which is what that 3% mitigations is _supposed_ to be replacing. The ettens banner has no direct replacement (much as I disagree with PvE boosting stuff only available from PvP, that doesn't change the facts).

Stop trying to snow the issue.

And those 1500 morale are replaced/(made pretty much useless) with the massive amounts of vitality on all 86+ pieces.

[aardnebby]

And those 1500 morale are replaced/(made pretty much useless) with the massive amounts of vitality on all 86+ pieces.

Still snowing away there eh? If we kept the morale it would have scaled to be relevant to the new morale pool size.

You can't claim one bonus has been replaced by something entirely unrelated which is actually to replace something else. Basically it is lying.

[Elrantiri]

Still snowing away there eh? If we kept the morale it would have scaled to be relevant to the new morale pool size.

And how much would a "relevant amount" be?
Getting extra morale only holds any value until you have enough buffer to avoid oneshots (and quick deaths), after that you want mitigations. The changes to stats on items (big chunks of vitality) will be making a lot of difference, especially for classes that usually had very low morale to get as much mastery and crit as possible. 700-800 morale @ lvl 75 and 85 made a big difference because it'd easily be 6-12% extra max morale for glass cannons (so big AoEs like in Saruman fight wouldn't be one-shotting you), that doesn't seem to be the case in HD. Unless they increase damage from mobs a LOT, 6-12% extra morale won't have the same value it used to have because oneshots will be less of an issue.

You can't claim one bonus has been replaced by something entirely unrelated which is actually to replace something else. Basically it is lying.

Our banner planting have been replaced by heralds and yet you consider hope herald buff and PvP banner buff to be entirely unrelated?

[Celebadan]

I like some of what I see for the changes in Captain but we are now pretty bound to a couple stupid changes that I really see no merit in when it comes to raiding. Many others have pointed this out as well.

When in Hands of Healing - Why do I want to give focus to a healer? Why? Because in the end it benefits me to do more heals when I trait for it. Why do I want Song Brother on a healer when I am also traited for HoH? Unless the raid is that critical with needing the heals for that boost... I suppose again, it benefits me. In actuality, normally I give myself Relentless since the criticals boost healing as well. This is just not so well thought out to me.

When in Red Line - The DPS bonuses, which I normally apply anyway will help the party.. but it has to be done through combat and is for a short duration. These benefits for Blade Brother also apply to me to boost my DPS. In seriousness, I didn't play Captain to be a hoss at DPS. My buff choice would still, in most cases, be Relentless for the crits.

When in Yellow Line - Why am I only able to benefit my party with tanking bonuses? Why would I also focus on Shield Brother for the tank if I am also tanking? Because it benefits me? Rah rah.


My deal here is that the Captain is supposed to be a support class and not be just thinking about himself. Ok, so I get bonuses for putting buffs on others and traiting a specific way so I get them? It makes 'me' more useful but it doesn't make my use to the party as useful with buffs that accurately portray the need of the party as a whole. This is like it is catering to whiners who complained we don't do enough of one function or another and so now we are locked. The Captain wasn't meant in a raid to think about just what he/she can do. It was about what they can do for others.

My suggestion to cure this would be that it is fine to leave the 'bonuses' in trait line of full 'Song Brother' benefits in HoH or tanking in yellow etc... but that the actual Tactics return as choices for us to make prior to combat again and they have an actual duration. This has been a -very- common issue for captains to grant tactics based on people's classes... not on how -we- choose to trait. I suppose I'm going to have to adapt but it makes us actually in some ways less useful. I'm rather disappointed we can't do 'Brother' skills based on who we want to aid/protect either and now it is traited instead so we must choose the optimal one type of class (healer, dps, tank). We're going to be swapping trees mid combat if we want to even have any chance at benefiting our party in old raids.

Also, I thought they wanted to stream line each class in the game to have a function but seems they also want us to remove now fear/wound/disease/poison 1 each instead of letting each class have 3 removals of one specific target. Not that thrilled about that either.

Are captains even now going to be that useful since we can't do proper buffs at onset of combat? If I trait HoH, no longer do we give decent dps buffs etc. Also, not so thrilled about the herald #### again, but ah well, I could deal. My major worry is seriously about the first issues that many people have raised and it seems like the Captain is just now more... greedy, buffing up his function in the raid and giving perhaps useless bonuses to others who don't need them... like 'focus' on dps and tanks. This needs addressed and refined. If it doesn't happen this release, it will have to eventually or we're not going to be that good anymore, even as we benefit individually from it. It's either that or we really do learn to retrait on the fly to swap out HoH for Leader, etc so we can get the proper buffs to people as required.

[aardnebby]

Are captains even now going to be that useful since we can't do proper buffs at onset of combat? If I trait HoH, no longer do we give decent dps buffs etc. Also, not so thrilled about the herald #### again, but ah well, I could deal. My major worry is seriously about the first issues that many people have raised and it seems like the Captain is just now more... greedy, buffing up his function in the raid and giving perhaps useless bonuses to others who don't need them... like 'focus' on dps and tanks. This needs addressed and refined. If it doesn't happen this release, it will have to eventually or we're not going to be that good anymore, even as we benefit individually from it. It's either that or we really do learn to retrait on the fly to swap out HoH for Leader, etc so we can get the proper buffs to people as required.

*shrugs* I raised these points repeatedly in beta, some changes were made (now each tactics buff includes _something_ that boosts DPS) but they still focus mainly on tactical mastery for HoH and parry rating for LoM.

I wish you luck in your feedback.

[Celebadan]

I appreciate you raising the issues. I also thank you for doing a fine job in explaining things. It's sad we're not really being listened to though and it is almost as if someone who designed this actually doesn't know the class functionality as we do. Hopefully, something will change prior to release. I really hope so anyway. Other classes work better with this tree system but Captain still seems the one class that is the most broken.

[Elrantiri]

Why do I want Song Brother on a healer when I am also traited for HoH? Unless the raid is that critical with needing the heals for that boost... I suppose again, it benefits me. In actuality, normally I give myself Relentless since the criticals boost healing as well. This is just not so well thought out to me.

Well, I'd propose to put Song-brother on the tank.
Song-brother passives increases Critical Defence (good for tank) and masteries (meh for tank).
Song-brother To Arms will increase the tanks self-healing. (and AFAIK there'll be changes to To Arms)
Song-brothers call increases Tactical Mastery for a tiny bit more self-healing and damage from some skills.
Inspire morale+power heal will be at full effect on the tank.

When in Red Line - The DPS bonuses, which I normally apply anyway will help the party.. but it has to be done through combat and is for a short duration. These benefits for Blade Brother also apply to me to boost my DPS. In seriousness, I didn't play Captain to be a hoss at DPS. My buff choice would still, in most cases, be Relentless for the crits.

Well, the in-combat change is both a good and a bad thing imo. You can't buff strangers you come across, but on the other hand there's no "rebuff phase" every time you wipe or start new raid.

When in Yellow Line - Why am I only able to benefit my party with tanking bonuses?

I'm not updated on how the other classes fare power-management wise, but -10% power cost could be useful to them. I have no clue what 3% defence does, so cant comment on that. As for the parry rating it's mostly a tank thing, though some AoEs or random hits might be parried by other members in the Fellowship.

Why would I also focus on Shield Brother for the tank if I am also tanking? Because it benefits me? Rah rah.

In many fights the tank is not the only one to take damage, and Shield-brother can be a nice boost to a non-tank class when they take some damage (e.g. Ranged DPS tanking shadow boss in BG raid, healer at first boss in Bells). In raids you might also want to consider a raidsetup where both tanks are in the same fellowship so you can Shield-brother the other tank.

My deal here is that the Captain is supposed to be a support class and not be just thinking about himself. Ok, so I get bonuses for putting buffs on others and traiting a specific way so I get them? It makes 'me' more useful but it doesn't make my use to the party as useful with buffs that accurately portray the need of the party as a whole. This is like it is catering to whiners who complained we don't do enough of one function or another and so now we are locked. The Captain wasn't meant in a raid to think about just what he/she can do. It was about what they can do for others.

Indeed, the versatility of the Captain doesn't fit too well into the Specialization revamp coming with HD, but as it's coming no matter what the Beta has been about making the most of it. My hope is that the Specialization makes it easier for Turbine to balance classes and create+balance content so we can get better content than we have currently.

My suggestion to cure this would be that it is fine to leave the 'bonuses' in trait line of full 'Song Brother' benefits in HoH or tanking in yellow etc... but that the actual Tactics return as choices for us to make prior to combat again and they have an actual duration. This has been a -very- common issue for captains to grant tactics based on people's classes... not on how -we- choose to trait. I suppose I'm going to have to adapt but it makes us actually in some ways less useful. I'm rather disappointed we can't do 'Brother' skills based on who we want to aid/protect either and now it is traited instead so we must choose the optimal one type of class (healer, dps, tank). We're going to be swapping trees mid combat if we want to even have any chance at benefiting our party in old raids.

...

Are captains even now going to be that useful since we can't do proper buffs at onset of combat? If I trait HoH, no longer do we give decent dps buffs etc. Also, not so thrilled about the herald #### again, but ah well, I could deal. My major worry is seriously about the first issues that many people have raised and it seems like the Captain is just now more... greedy, buffing up his function in the raid and giving perhaps useless bonuses to others who don't need them... like 'focus' on dps and tanks. This needs addressed and refined. If it doesn't happen this release, it will have to eventually or we're not going to be that good anymore, even as we benefit individually from it. It's either that or we really do learn to retrait on the fly to swap out HoH for Leader, etc so we can get the proper buffs to people as required.

We have indeed been able to cater to the classes, but that's also because it's been very easy to do so. It's basically Relentless to healer and DPS, On Guard to tank and Focus to people we don't like. The only exception was that the tank sometimes would want Relentless.
Had Captains had the new Relentless buff in all three lines I think the very majority of Captain players would be fine about that.

That is IMO because most content is too easy and Relentless+Blade-brother allows us to complete the content faster so we can get to another lottery ticket chest for our small hope of a golden item. We've never/rarely really needed to buff survivability for the whole group apart from the occasional IHW+LS, and therefore the new Focus and On Guard seen rather useless. As I said before, I hope we'll see better and more challenging content in the future where survivability beyond the tank is actually needed, then I think our Focus and On Guard buffs will fit right in.

Also, the separation of buffs can become a nice combo if you bring more than 1 Captain in a fellowship as the buffs stack AFAIK (so you can have e.g. Focus and Relentless at the same time with a HoH and a LtC Captain).

[aardnebby]

I appreciate you raising the issues. I also thank you for doing a fine job in explaining things. It's sad we're not really being listened to though and it is almost as if someone who designed this actually doesn't know the class functionality as we do. Hopefully, something will change prior to release. I really hope so anyway. Other classes work better with this tree system but Captain still seems the one class that is the most broken.

Thank you, I did my best, and I feel the same way about being listened to at times. As can be seen there are people that feel otherwise, but *shrugs* sometimes when someone start to look at something a particular way and decide that's how they think it should be based on emotion or gut feeling I guess no logic or clear explanation will overcome that.

[dietlbomb]

I appreciate you raising the issues. I also thank you for doing a fine job in explaining things. It's sad we're not really being listened to though and it is almost as if someone who designed this actually doesn't know the class functionality as we do. Hopefully, something will change prior to release. I really hope so anyway. Other classes work better with this tree system but Captain still seems the one class that is the most broken.

I agree. The captain was supposed to be versatile and hybrid, and that is why I play one. Now it's just a class that can switch between 3 distinct roles. I don't like it.

But you should see the champion. Separating its dps role into two trees is going to be a complete disaster. That class is pretty much unplayable.

[Gilean-EU]

I did some LI testing so here's legacies as they are in Beta 6:
(OP already had a list, but I thought I posted a bit more details since I was doing this for all classes anyway )


Weapon Major

Name	Min	Max
Captain Area-effect Healing	+1%	+15%
Melee Skill Critical Multiplier	+1%	+15%
Melee Skill Power Cost	-1%	-10%
Oathbreaker's Shame duration	+1	+10
Pressing Attack and Devastating Blow Critical Rating	+359	+511
Pressing Attack Max Targets	+1	+5
Telling Mark Damage	+2%	+5%
To Arms Duration	+1	+15

Weapon Minor

Name	Min	Max
Battle States and Defeat Response Duration	+1	+5
Blade of Elendil Damage	+3%	+25%
Bleed Damage	+4%	+40%
Cry Power Cost	-1%	-10%
Defensive Strike Armour Buff	+330	+610
Inspire Damage	+3%	+25%
Make Haste Duration	+1	+25
Routing Cry Damage	+4%	+40%
Tactics Duration	+1	+15

Emblem Major

Name	Min	Max
Captain Critical Healing Magnitude	+1%	+15%
Melee Skills Healing	+1%	+15%
Noble Mark Damage	+1%	+50%
Rallying Cry Healing	+1%	+15%
Sure Strike Damage	+3%	+25%
Valiant Strike Morale Return	+1%	+10%
Vocal Skills Healing	+1%	+15%
Words of Courage Power/Morale Cost	-1%	-10%

Emblem Minor

Name	Min	Max
Bleed Pulses	+1	+9
Devastating Blow and Pressing Attack Damage	+3%	+25%
Last Stand Duration	+1	+10
Light Skill Damage	+3%	+25%
Shadow's Lament Damage	+1%	+15%
Shield of the Dúnedain Duration	+1	+10
Time of Need Buff Duration	+1	+10
Words of Courage Pulses	+1	+14

[aardnebby]

Just glancing over your list, appreciate the time that went in to it, but the following are probably bugs or badly balanced:

Both weapon legacies that give "ratings" (pressing attack/devastating blow crit rating and defensive strike armour rating) give such small bonuses that they are practically worthless at 85, let alone at 95. Furthermore (and honestly worse) there is also very little increase from 0 investment and full investment of legacy points, in fact by investing dozens of LI points you cant even double the initial value. Star lit crystals help with the first issue (increasing all ratings) but afaik they increase by a flat %, so even with 3 crystals you probably will not double your bonus with a significant cost vs practically no cost for just having it sat on the weapon.

To Arms duration is probably still overpowered relative to the others, and practically the only thing worthwhile in all three specs, except perhaps:

Melee power cost was, before the recent fate revamp, fairly essential, which makes it a band-aid for poor class balancing, rather than a "choice". I have no idea how things measure up now. But since I have ducked out of beta since my opinion is apparently unwanted I will not be bothering to test that.

WoC pulses? Seriously? Is _anyone_ planning on spending LI points on that?

I see a number of legacies that fix skills broken by the current changes IE Last Stand duration, good luck getting use out of a 7 second version if you are supposedly tanking without dying the moment it wears off)

[Elrantiri]

Both weapon legacies that give "ratings" (pressing attack/devastating blow crit rating and defensive strike armour rating) give such small bonuses that they are practically worthless at 85, let alone at 95. Furthermore (and honestly worse) there is also very little increase from 0 investment and full investment of legacy points, in fact by investing dozens of LI points you cant even double the initial value. Star lit crystals help with the first issue (increasing all ratings) but afaik they increase by a flat %, so even with 3 crystals you probably will not double your bonus with a significant cost vs practically no cost for just having it sat on the weapon.

Not that it's any help, but it's been like that as long as I can remember, and across all classes. Same goes for Stat legacies, it's legacies where you get a decent bonus with 0 points in it, but additional points into the legacy are pretty much worthless. People have been commenting on it for years and nothing has happened.

To Arms duration is probably still overpowered relative to the others, and practically the only thing worthwhile in all three specs, except perhaps:

Melee power cost was, before the recent fate revamp, fairly essential, which makes it a band-aid for poor class balancing, rather than a "choice". I have no idea how things measure up now. But since I have ducked out of beta since my opinion is apparently unwanted I will not be bothering to test that.

I think To Arms has always been very potent for a legacy (pretty much a musthave), and our new duration legacies are pretty close to that potency IMO.

WoC pulses? Seriously? Is _anyone_ planning on spending LI points on that?

With maxed legacy + golden Cappie shield you got like over a minute of HoT pulses, which is useful for leeching Renown in the moors (or at least was) :P

I think the HoTs from WoC can also trigger the "+1% crit chance on crit" buff and perhaps even trigger the "On Captain heal, 10% chance of SOMEBUFF/SOMEHEAL" items. Also, with HoH crit magnitude set bonus+legacy, some high crit rating and crit chance in HoH, the HoT from WoC might be a lot more useful than it is on Live?

Also, considering WoC is pretty much our only way of healing soldiers in Big Battles, pulses might be at least somewhat useful there?

[furtim]

The legacy changes for Helm's Deep have mostly targeted legacies that were either invalidated by the skill changes in the revamp or else otherwise problematic. WoC Pulses doesn't fit either category.

[HumphreyMilkweed]

With the changes to Captains coming, would you say they are more survivable if spec'd as a tank with new mechanics? I always wanted to make my Captain function as a tank, but he felt so weak compared to my Guardian in both damage and survivability that I always just went back to playing my Guard.

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

[aardnebby]

With maxed legacy + golden Cappie shield you got like over a minute of HoT pulses, which is useful for leeching Renown in the moors (or at least was) :P

Also, considering WoC is pretty much our only way of healing soldiers in Big Battles, pulses might be at least somewhat useful there?

I guess these are the main things, not exactly a ringing endorsement eh?

I think the HoTs from WoC can also trigger the "+1% crit chance on crit" buff and perhaps even trigger the "On Captain heal, 10% chance of SOMEBUFF/SOMEHEAL" items. Also, with HoH crit magnitude set bonus+legacy, some high crit rating and crit chance in HoH, the HoT from WoC might be a lot more useful than it is on Live?

Do they trigger if you are "overhealing" someone who is already on full morale? In my experience on live, you are either spamhealing someone and the hots never play out, or you toss them a heal as a stopgap and most of the hots are wasted because they are shortly at full health from other heals. Thus my complaint about WoC hot pulse legacy. A more useful legacy would be to increase the magnitude of heal pulse IMHO.

The legacy changes for Helm's Deep have mostly targeted legacies that were either invalidated by the skill changes in the revamp or else otherwise problematic. WoC Pulses doesn't fit either category.

... I don't even know what to say. How is that relevant at all to the fact it is a pointless legacy?

[Almagnus1]

With the changes to Captains coming, would you say they are more survivable if spec'd as a tank with new mechanics? I always wanted to make my Captain function as a tank, but he felt so weak compared to my Guardian in both damage and survivability that I always just went back to playing my Guard.

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

We're up there, as the traits do a lot, especially with our self healing. So by stats alone, we might not be as sturdy, but our self healing is on part with the wardens (if not better).

... I don't even know what to say. How is that relevant at all to the fact it is a pointless legacy?

It's not a pointless legacy.

It's got a long tail for a HoT, which means you that you don't have to heal the QQer as often because they see the HoT buff and don't need to ask for MOAR HOTS!

[aardnebby]

It's not a pointless legacy.

It's got a long tail for a HoT, which means you that you don't have to heal the QQer as often because they see the HoT buff and don't need to ask for MOAR HOTS!

If that's the sole use for it, I'm just gonna go with my first answer, since I rarely pvp or group with qqers.

Still, what do I care? Another useless legacy is frankly the smallest of our issues.

[Almagnus1]

what about the captains that cant see the rotten trees for the forest?

So how can something that gives more flexibility than the current trait system be "rotten"?

[aardnebby]

So how can something that gives more flexibility than the current trait system be "rotten"?

The trait system is more "flexible" at a cost flexibility in what we can actually do.

I now am forced to use a herald or do without.

Now the x-brother skill is based on what spec I choose, rather than what is suitable for the situation. And the same for my tactics skill. And which former "legendary" traits I have...

It is misleading to speak of a more flexible trait system, when our options have been so limited.