Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Warden

[bohbashum]

You are aware of the combat analysis plugin, right? I really hope they never do it, but all the tech to do so already exists in player created tools. The biggest challenge would simply be creating an appropriate and non-laggy UI for it.

Heal aggro used to be worth 50% of damage aggro. While I haven't done any testing, I see no reason why they wouldn't continue on with heal threat being worth some fraction of regular damage threat.

plugins working across cliants though. one only I can really think of is ettenmoors PvMP+ where, if it see's certain text in the chat tab, it updates and shows it on the map for a certain time.

it *could* be done the same but that would mean player A's plugin would constantly be sending messages of his dps value to a chat to have player B's plugin reading it and compare to his own dps... I suspect for a start the time gaps between data sent would need to be pretty high as to not just create lag and being muted from the chat channel as you can be.

my tests on healing aggro were a little weirder than that. only heals that healed (no over-heals). about 5/12 (closer to 4/12 than 6/12) actual aggro. and those didn't scale well over time, my healer aggro scaled slower than my own (as I dealt more aggro and/or time went on, the healer dealt less). and lastly the ONLY way to measure actual heals is by measuring taken per-second, not healed. these can be warped by in-combat moral regain and are always a few steps behind.

I guess you could make a vertual "red zone" of a bar where you *might* lose aggro as a plugin.

but again, it's possible, but I doubt people will and it won't nearly be as useful as other games because of these hurdles.

[Darlgon]

possible but I doubt it.

you'd need to have clients work together to par up information. I guess it could do this over text in the chat tab but then anyone who wanted to would need to have a chat tab dedicated to the plugin.

as well, we still have heal aggro (and seriously we have no idea how it works really or how to record it well) and there are still some multiples out there that don't have exact numbers connected to it (guardians still have an undamaging aggro skill). it's also kinda fuzzy how taunts work when you have aggro, sometimes it increases your aggro, sometimes decreases, and over numerous tests I don't see any clear reason to why.

possible, but I doubt we'll see it.

Depends on how they worked it. Sigh.. tried to figure on a spreadsheet, but that will take some time. Suffice to say, if threat expires over time, or subtracts from the highest threat person in the group, which could be the warden, then adds to warden threat, a warden could loose ground.

[spelunker]

plugins working across cliants though. one only I can really think of is ettenmoors PvMP+ where, if it see's certain text in the chat tab, it updates and shows it on the map for a certain time.

it *could* be done the same but that would mean player A's plugin would constantly be sending messages of his dps value to a chat to have player B's plugin reading it and compare to his own dps... I suspect for a start the time gaps between data sent would need to be pretty high as to not just create lag and being muted from the chat channel as you can be.

my tests on healing aggro were a little weirder than that. only heals that healed (no over-heals). about 5/12 (closer to 4/12 than 6/12) actual aggro. and those didn't scale well over time, my healer aggro scaled slower than my own (as I dealt more aggro and/or time went on, the healer dealt less). and lastly the ONLY way to measure actual heals is by measuring taken per-second, not healed. these can be warped by in-combat moral regain and are always a few steps behind.

I guess you could make a vertual "red zone" of a bar where you *might* lose aggro as a plugin.

but again, it's possible, but I doubt people will and it won't nearly be as useful as other games because of these hurdles.

Combat analysis used to have a functionality to let you see what everyone else you were grouped with also running the plugin were doing for heals/damage/dmg taken/power restore, etc.

[WhimsicalPacifist]

plugins working across cliants though. one only I can really think of is ettenmoors PvMP+ where, if it see's certain text in the chat tab, it updates and shows it on the map for a certain time.

it *could* be done the same but that would mean player A's plugin would constantly be sending messages of his dps value to a chat to have player B's plugin reading it and compare to his own dps... I suspect for a start the time gaps between data sent would need to be pretty high as to not just create lag and being muted from the chat channel as you can be.

my tests on healing aggro were a little weirder than that. only heals that healed (no over-heals). about 5/12 (closer to 4/12 than 6/12) actual aggro. and those didn't scale well over time, my healer aggro scaled slower than my own (as I dealt more aggro and/or time went on, the healer dealt less). and lastly the ONLY way to measure actual heals is by measuring taken per-second, not healed. these can be warped by in-combat moral regain and are always a few steps behind.

I guess you could make a vertual "red zone" of a bar where you *might* lose aggro as a plugin.

but again, it's possible, but I doubt people will and it won't nearly be as useful as other games because of these hurdles.

I thought about this very thing in conceptualizing the theoretical plugin. I reached the same conclusion of using in game chat. It's not just PvMP+ that is able to read ingame chat, the same functionality exists in Palantir 2.0 which monitors if the player name ever comes up in the chat. The trick is indeed in having the DPS's plugin ping their total damage done when aggro switches back to the tank via the threat copy. The only thing I am having trouble with is determining if there exists within the LUA a means of determining if aggro is established.

1. Could be solved with the damage log determining if a person has aggro. (Laborious filters need to be established for stuns, environmental damage), problematic in situations where aggro equals instagib.
2. Something of a handshake protocol could be used. Tank plugin pings when they use their threat copy, DPS automatically pings their total damage done, Tank plugin calculates the running total. Again the problem is determining which DPS has aggro. Having all DPS ping their damage would be the best solution. Also no need for custom channels, this would work in /say.
3. This would have to be something used by at least the tank and top DPS.
4. For the sake of minimizing the increasing error induced by lag between pings, the pings can be timestamped. This can be used to reduce, but not eliminate, the difference between the percieved threat total that the DPS gives and the actual known by the client.

[Skinnymac7]

So I guess the minimum range removal isn't tied to the assailment tree?

[spelunker]

So I guess the minimum range removal isn't tied to the assailment tree?

no, there is no minimum range for any skill when in assailment, regardless of how you are traited. Also regardless of traiting, when in assailment stance and a melee attacker hits you, you will get a stacking "harried" debuff that reduces your damage by 5% (stacking 5 times, to 25%) and lasts 10s, i think.

In my opinion, the way this was handled was the absolute best thing Deviled_Egg did for the class.

[Darlgon]

I am stealing this from another thread because the person would probably not appreciate the derail.. Here in the warden forums, its expected. The OP asked to post if you liked your classes.

from "great - chuffed - meh - ohgodwhy!" I'll rate my 6 classes

Burglar - Great! can't wait! probably my new main!

Minstrel - chuffed, needs some tweaks but for the most part I'm happy with the core changes. yellow line all the way though.

captain - Great! probably some of the most controversial but for tbh, once I got into, I really started to like it. only get better in group play.

Lore-master - Meh, the class never really has been my thing in the first place and the red line doesn't interest me. I like the new yellow and blue but doubt he'll see much action

Hunter - Great!, I'm seriously chuffed with some of these. I don't understand some of the negativity around some of these changes.

warden - ohgodwhy! I'm not happy at all with how it's turning out. I'm question it's viablity as a tank and class and even wonder if they understand the boundries and fun in the gambit system.

so yeah, imo, 4/6 I'm very happy about. it's very clear some classes will be much happier than others.

Bohba, just a reminder. The class creator, Graalx, moved on from the game. The only dev that I KNOW who got the class besides him, Orion, (even if we disagreed on some of the vision), has been moved on to bigger and better things. He not only got the class, he tried to recognize our community spirit and gave Turbine the best possible PR boost a community could have after the debacle that was RoI, by actually communicating with us. We have had HOW many devs who did not get the class assigned for one or two XPacs and then gotton a new dev? Just praying that sooner or later we may get another one that understands wardens are a very unique class in MMOs.

(Editing this post to correct one glaring mis-statement. RockX seemed to really get the class and engaged the community also. Sorry dude to have left you off the list. I just happened across an older post and went, "Dang, missed him.")

[Marrsil]

For me the warden made a huge improvement during the beta phases.
Beta 1 was a mess going worse to 3 and since then I'm happy with the red line. Fortunately the clicky finishers were removed, they were realy disturbing.

I have to say that I play my warden solo most the time and always red traited. So the problems with the tank spec don't affect me.
The red line is more viable even if not on par with captain or hunter but better than on live.

[Darlgon]

The red line is more viable even if not on par with captain or hunter but better than on live.

Ok.. I am confused. Captain is a support class, never has had DPS that I know of. Hunters are purely DPS, so how can we be on a par with both? Or, do you mean as far as stability as a class?

[Darlgon]

Stealing from the guard class thread again:

i think someone was saying the cap for BPE at 95 was 16k exactly, but they are changing the current caps by level. i cannot recall the exactly numbers, but it's something like 1-30 caps at 15%, 31-85 at 20%, 86-95 at 25%
they said they will readjust the numbers later so that it's a bit more of a smoother transition from 1-95 and that the lower levels probably wouldn't see any changes (most likely because it's hard to cap at that level anyway). i'm not sure if the ratings themselves have been adjusted or if they have, in what way.

Say WHAT? A sliding scale by level? Oh, SOOO many ways for them to make Heavy or Med Armor tanking OP or useless respectively.

[bohbashum]

Say WHAT? A sliding scale by level? Oh, SOOO many ways for them to make Heavy or Med Armor tanking OP or useless respectively.

they will be changing a lot about how stats work, this isn't the end of it...

from what I know (and I have a nice thread of it on beta but can't copy and paste) is that the ratio of rating to percentages will be decreased dramatically.

the quote goes along the lines of "The goal going forward it to instead force classes to decide which particular stats will provide most benefit for them, potentially only allowing them to approach all relevant caps with some of the best gear in the game."

expect to see BPE and mitigations much, much harder to cap.

[Darlgon]

they will be changing a lot about how stats work, this isn't the end of it...

from what I know (and I have a nice thread of it on beta but can't copy and paste) is that the ratio of rating to percentages will be decreased dramatically.

the quote goes along the lines of "The goal going forward it to instead force classes to decide which particular stats will provide most benefit for them, potentially only allowing them to approach all relevant caps with some of the best gear in the game."

expect to see BPE and mitigations much, much harder to cap.

Make sure you have a copy to tweak and bring out when it goes live.. P

[furtim]

Ok.. I am confused. Captain is a support class, never has had DPS that I know of. Hunters are purely DPS, so how can we be on a par with both? Or, do you mean as far as stability as a class?

It's possible Marrsii made a typo and meant "Champion".

However, all classes with a DPS specialisation -- which includes the Captain, believe it or not -- got their numbers buffed to be within a few points of one another. The new Captain can put out ~2k DPS against a single target at level 88. I don't know what the Hunters or Champs can do, because none of them are posting parses. XD

However, I will say that Captain DPS is only effective against a single target. Champs completely blow us out of the water for AoE. So despite the number balancing, there are still noticeable differences between the classes who can DPS. I'm not sure what the Warden's strength as a DPSer is. Bleeds, obviously, but I don't know whether that makes them better at single-target DPS, AoE DPS, or what.

[bohbashum]

Make sure you have a copy to tweak and bring out when it goes live.. P

no point really. we've not even seen how it'll work out in beta.

I had to delete the quotes from developers and any tests of aggro testing on the aggro thread and it's not as factual as I'd like. with stat changes, we could talk about it all we want but we really need to see the maths before we can speculate.

right now, without stat changes lotro will be broken will how easy content will be. however, simply taking off my armor and imagening what stats might be like, content is much better balanced in a weird way. we'll see.

[Darlgon]

right now, without stat changes lotro will be broken will how easy content will be. however, simply taking off my armor and imagening what stats might be like, content is much better balanced in a weird way. we'll see.

You mean, like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6LPPTdJlKo

[bohbashum]

You mean, like this?

obvious exploits aside, yes :P

[spelunker]

obvious exploits aside, yes :P

the thing is, that isn't an exploit, its an incredibly poorly thought out trait. I can 100% (well, maybe 98%) duplicate that result myself, by hand doing nothing other than using skills and mechanics as they are intended, hotkeys, and 2 fingers. Perhaps you can call it a semantic argument to not call it an exploit when it is clearly a game-breaking mechanic, but that is just someone using a trait to its fullest capacity. The problem in this case lies with a Developer instituting a trait that they gave little thought to the potential impact of.

[Vulcwen]

Actually, it is an exploit/bug, inductions (the trait causes that 100% absorb/reflect effect while inducting) have diminishing returns on it, so he should just finish that induction in 2-3s. What he is doing is resetting the induction at some way (which normally can only be done by moving, meaning you have some time without induction). This doesn't make the trait less OP, but I'm sure they will fix this issue before live. The point is that it shouldn't be possible to be stuck in an induction all of the time.

Edit: it seems that ESC interrupts your own induction and that I missed it all the time, it doesn't invalidate my point that it shouldn't be possible though.

[spelunker]

Actually, it is an exploit/bug, inductions (the trait causes that 100% absorb/reflect effect while inducting) have diminishing returns on it, so he should just finish that induction in 2-3s. What he is doing is resetting the induction at some way (which normally can only be done by moving, meaning you have some time without induction). This doesn't make the trait less OP, but I'm sure they will fix this issue before live. The point is that it shouldn't be possible to be stuck in an induction all of the time.

I suggest you look for another way to stop an induction without moving. There is indeed a way that instantly stops an induction, has no animation, and allows a new induction to start the instant you hit said induction's keybind. It isn't an exploit and has been around since the game was released.

[furtim]

Semantics, maybe, but an exploit that hasn't been fixed is still an exploit. It just hasn't been a priority before, since there wasn't any benefit to putting yourself into an infinite induction loop.

[spelunker]

Semantics, maybe, but an exploit that hasn't been fixed is still an exploit. It just hasn't been a priority before, since there wasn't any benefit to putting yourself into an infinite induction loop.

Again, how is it an exploit? What I'm talking about (breaking an induction without moving) is definitely intended, restarting the induction quickly just comes down to how fast you click the skill. The problem is the potency of the trait Deviled_Egg made, not how someone can end an induction, as this would have a very meaningful impact on how induction classes play.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the fast/immediate skill exploit that has been a major topic of discussion in the PvMP forums.

You players of induction classes really don't know how to break an induction without moving?

[bohbashum]

warden thread.

[Darlgon]

warden thread.

ROLF. Sorry Bohba, even tho I am finding it informative.

Come to think of it, is this actually an indication that a number of the wardens in the forums have surrendered to the fact that the class will be broken until the next update? (Even tho, I must admit, I used to see a lot of "warden" posters in the LM threads.)

[bohbashum]

Come to think of it, is this actually an indication that a number of the wardens in the forums have surrendered to the fact that the class will be broken until the next update? (Even tho, I must admit, I used to see a lot of "warden" posters in the LM threads.)

your probably right.

the feedback forums on beta is kinda a running joke atm. spunkler summed it up nicely with a certain .GIF



and that .GIF is extremely appropriate. you can figure out the rest...

warden doesn't look like it'll be finished, playable, viable or fun for live. we'll once again be a broken class and be *fixed* in a later patch.

the LM exploit or whatever you want to call it (without clearly insulting devs/designers please) is an huge issue, but it's an LM issue. it's like thinking too much on a bug. it's a bug, it's good you've found it, don't think about it too much. if it's not fixed, THEN, it becomes a super serious issue you can throw your dummy out over. but it's a beta issue, one of many, leave it there for now and don't get too wound up like some people are. if your going to flip out over every exploit and bug in beta claiming it's completely the devs intention to mess up and not just a mistake, you might as well never play an online game again.

[Gilean-EU]

I did some LI testing so here's legacies as they are in Beta 6:



Weapon Major

Name	Min	Max
Fist-Spear Gambit power cost	-1%	-10%
Gambit Lifetap damage	+1%	+10%
In The Fray attack duration	-1%	-10%
Light Skill damage	+1%	+5%
Marked and Diminished Tgt debuff	-0.5%	-2.5%
Shield Gambit buff duration	+1	+10
Spear Gambit damage	+1%	+10%
Spear Gambit parry rating	+359	+511
Wages of Fear positional damage	+1%	+10%

Weapon Minor

Name	Min	Max
Ambush critical multiplier	+3%	+25%
Boar's Rush critical rating	+359	+511
Critical Strike critical multiplier	+3%	+25%
Hampering Javelin duration	+1%	+15%
Javelin Skills Max Range	+1	+15
Resolution damage	+1%	+10%
Shield-Spear Gambit power cost	-1%	-10%
Shield Tactics Tactical Mitigation rating	+359	+511
Surety of Death damage over time	+1%	+10%

Javelin Major

Name	Min	Max
Fist Gambit buff duration	+1	+10
Fist Gambit critical rating	+1360	+1520
Fist Gambit evade rating	+207	+359
Heal Bonus for Conviction	+1%	+10%
In Combat Power Regeneration	+48.36	+94.8
In The Fray morale regen	+102.06	+200.1
Shield Gambit Line healing	+1%	+15%
Spear-Shield Gambit damage	+1%	+10%

Javelin Minor

Name	Min	Max
Adroit Maneuver duration	+1	+10
Ambush and Careful Step Induction	-0.3	-3
Careful Step duration	+3	+30
DC Mitigations Per Target	0.2%	1.8%
Forced March Movement Speed	+1%	+13%
Javelin Skills Movement Miss Penalty	-2%	-10%
Shield Gambit Line Healing	+1%	+15%
Shield Piercer duration	+1%	+15%
Target Resist rating (Resolution)	+264	+416