Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Warden

[Darlgon]

I did some LI testing so here's legacies as they are in Beta 6:



Weapon Major

Name	Min	Max
Fist-Spear Gambit power cost	-1%	-10%
Gambit Lifetap damage	+1%	+10%
In The Fray attack duration	-1%	-10%
Light Skill damage	+1%	+5%
Marked and Diminished Tgt debuff	-0.5%	-2.5%
Shield Gambit buff duration	+1	+10
Spear Gambit damage	+1%	+10%
Spear Gambit parry rating	+359	+511
Wages of Fear positional damage	+1%	+10%

Weapon Minor

Name	Min	Max
Ambush critical multiplier	+3%	+25%
Boar's Rush critical rating	+359	+511
Critical Strike critical multiplier	+3%	+25%
Hampering Javelin duration	+1%	+15%
Javelin Skills Max Range	+1	+15
Resolution damage	+1%	+10%
Shield-Spear Gambit power cost	-1%	-10%
Shield Tactics Tactical Mitigation rating	+359	+511
Surety of Death damage over time	+1%	+10%

Javelin Major

Name	Min	Max
Fist Gambit buff duration	+1	+10
Fist Gambit critical rating	+1360	+1520
Fist Gambit evade rating	+207	+359
Heal Bonus for Conviction	+1%	+10%
In Combat Power Regeneration	+48.36	+94.8
In The Fray morale regen	+102.06	+200.1
Shield Gambit Line healing	+1%	+15%
Spear-Shield Gambit damage	+1%	+10%

Javelin Minor

Name	Min	Max
Adroit Maneuver duration	+1	+10
Ambush and Careful Step Induction	-0.3	-3
Careful Step duration	+3	+30
DC Mitigations Per Target	0.2%	1.8%
Forced March Movement Speed	+1%	+13%
Javelin Skills Movement Miss Penalty	-2%	-10%
Shield Gambit Line Healing	+1%	+15%
Shield Piercer duration	+1%	+15%
Target Resist rating (Resolution)	+264	+416

Thanks for the work you are putting into those. I saw one in another class thread. I just hope you are not too disappointed when the live version looks nothing like what you are posting from beta. IF all the other stats on gear are getting hopefully rewrites, I dont see LIs being excluded.

[zashel02]

well this is stellar... now we're forced to choose between offensive legacies for threat building, and defensive legacies so after we get threat we (hopefully) wont be squashed in three shots. my burg is suddenly feeling much more survivable. i cant say i've ever seen a class broken so hard in one update. i guess this is our version of the NGE from SWG? on the plus side, this removes one of my four 85's from contestation for first to 95. good thing i know a few guards.

[Darlgon]

Changes.

Wow.. just went back and looked at that original post for this thread. TONS of red for changes. Thanks for the updates.

Am I reading this correctly tho? Bleeds are going to be light only? Not weapon type specific? (Beriland, Dwarf, umm.. cant think of them all atm.)

[furtim]

well this is stellar... now we're forced to choose between offensive legacies for threat building, and defensive legacies so after we get threat we (hopefully) wont be squashed in three shots.

Yeah, legacy distribution is not the problem with Wardens right now. If the core buffs don't work, it doesn't matter what the legacies do. If the core buffs do work, then by definition it will be possible to survive without a defensively-loaded LI and hold threat without an offensively-loaded LI.

[Gilean-EU]

Thanks for the work you are putting into those. I saw one in another class thread. I just hope you are not too disappointed when the live version looks nothing like what you are posting from beta. IF all the other stats on gear are getting hopefully rewrites, I dont see LIs being excluded.

I am fully aware that things may chance before HD goes live, but I am guessing the changes are not very big though. And most of the changes are probably going to values, not legacies itself. But only a developers know for sure Anyway, I did these because I like to plan ahead for my LI's for different characters (I choose the legacies I want and then start hunting LI's with those right legacies), and thought I could share the info with everyone

[zashel02]

Yeah, legacy distribution is not the problem with Wardens right now. If the core buffs don't work, it doesn't matter what the legacies do. If the core buffs do work, then by definition it will be possible to survive without a defensively-loaded LI and hold threat without an offensively-loaded LI.

it was more of a "well here's another thing wrong" more then "zomg this is wrong!!?!". i dont even play my warden anymore now because of these changes. those fun fornost runs will be a thing of the past.

[spelunker]

Yeah, legacy distribution is not the problem with Wardens right now. If the core buffs don't work, it doesn't matter what the legacies do. If the core buffs do work, then by definition it will be possible to survive without a defensively-loaded LI and hold threat without an offensively-loaded LI.

This is such a complete misunderstanding of the class and its legacies, I wonder if you've even looked at what the legacies actually are. I could address most of the problems with the warden class and have people 100x happier with it going into HD simply by modifying the potency of existing legacies.

We have a TON of potentially great legacies, some are certainly more important/valuable than others, and some are very situational, but almost every one has value and important potential uses. The problem is that some haven't been scaled well, some skills haven't been altered without the legacies reflecting this, some are redundant, and in almost every situation our legacies bonuses aren't nearly as potent as they could or should be. There are plenty of very helpful legacies, but now that the threat ones have been removed, there are none that are important enough to meaningfully alter how the class is played, each just make us a little better at specific things, and there are so many of them that we can get a little better at basically everything we do with the right LIs, none of them matter enough.

[Redit]

I did some LI testing so here's legacies as they are in Beta 6:

wow thanks again, I'll put this in OP just like champ and give you credit.

[furtim]

This is such a complete misunderstanding of the class and its legacies...

Let me clarify: The class needs to work with zero legacies. You can't lean on legacies as a crutch to fix a broken class.

[Darlgon]

Let me clarify: The class needs to work with zero legacies. You can't lean on legacies as a crutch to fix a broken class.

Whoot.. Legendary Items at level 1 to make the class work. ;P

[Mysterion]

Hopefully everyone has an alt they like because it sounds like wardens are SOL until update 12.1 is released. On a side note I finally leveled my warden from 75 to 76 to get into the Lifetime contest. It was still parked in Lagtrev crafting hall. It brought back a lot of fond memories grouping up as many mobs as I could train and go through the FR, Reso and EoB line. Since I had run the complete exact quest chain right before with my LM to do the same thing, I forgot how fun it was to play. With my LM I had to plan pulls and watch for pathers - not the case with the warden. I really enjoyed it.

I look forward to reading about your guys experiences post update. I'm holding off on picking up the expansion until a sale. I'll probably run my guard through the Wildermore epic line to try out the new traits (live results) but steam sales have ruined me and my 100+ game backlog means an expensive glorified quest pack isn't a high priority right now.

I actually think I'll be enjoying middle earth thanks to this sale https://www.humblebundle.com/ (it is for warner brothers games so I don't think I'm breaking code of conduct). LOTR War of the North for under 5 bucks, yup I'm going to do that. Hopefully a black friday sale will be my ticket into HD.

/tangent

Good luck and hopefully the update for the warden isn't as bad in reality as I'm imagining it is going to be.

[Darlgon]

Hopefully everyone has an alt they like because it sounds like wardens are SOL until update 12.1 is released. On a side note I finally leveled my warden from 75 to 76 to get into the Lifetime contest. It was still parked in Lagtrev crafting hall. It brought back a lot of fond memories grouping up as many mobs as I could train and go through the FR, Reso and EoB line. Since I had run the complete exact quest chain right before with my LM to do the same thing, I forgot how fun it was to play. With my LM I had to plan pulls and watch for pathers - not the case with the warden. I really enjoyed it.

I look forward to reading about your guys experiences post update. I'm holding off on picking up the expansion until a sale. I'll probably run my guard through the Wildermore epic line to try out the new traits (live results) but steam sales have ruined me and my 100+ game backlog means an expensive glorified quest pack isn't a high priority right now.

I actually think I'll be enjoying middle earth thanks to this sale https://www.humblebundle.com/ (it is for warner brothers games so I don't think I'm breaking code of conduct). LOTR War of the North for under 5 bucks, yup I'm going to do that. Hopefully a black friday sale will be my ticket into HD.

/tangent

Good luck and hopefully the update for the warden isn't as bad in reality as I'm imagining it is going to be.

See ya Myst. Enjoy the popcorn. Does this mean Beta actually wrapped yesterday?

[Mysterion]

See ya Myst. Enjoy the popcorn. Does this mean Beta actually wrapped yesterday?

Not sure, just the feeling I've gotten from the forum - can't quote anything from beta b/c NDA/CoC. I'm surprised that an open beta hasn't started to be honest. Actually, I'm not surprised at all considering the divide that the trait trees have created among the community. I kind of hope they forgo opening bullroarer up just to make the release day a single point where the non-beta/forum-frequenters learn how different the game is. I'll have GLFF up for sure all day just to see what people think.

[furtim]

Turbine has never done an open beta for expansions, as far as I know. There wasn't one for RoI. There wasn't one for RoR.

The current closed beta is not over. Bullroarer is still open. Nobody but Turbine knows whether there will be another beta build this week, but bug reports and feedback can still be submitted and will be seen.

[Mysterion]

Turbine has never done an open beta for expansions, as far as I know. There wasn't one for RoI. There wasn't one for RoR.

The current closed beta is not over. Bullroarer is still open. Nobody but Turbine knows whether there will be another beta build this week, but bug reports and feedback can still be submitted and will be seen.

Hmm, I'm too lazy to search any further than this but other people seemed to remember an open beta for RoI

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...71#post6366271

I'm also pretty sure that several friends of mine Open Beta'd SoA and F2P. I've been in every closed-beta since I've started playing so I open betas aren't completely in my wheelhouse but I'm pretty sure they've opened them up before. Not to mention open betas for raids. I'm pretty sure they opened bullroarer up for OD and Orthanc and probably IoF, the other 3 man and when they added skirms in the snow that is hard and Dol Dinnen and possibly mac client (it might still be in beta). Granted you said "for expansions" I'll leave it to you to prove me wrong (granted I don't really care if I'm right or wrong). I have no interest in arguing with a "council member", but I think there should be an open beta. And if there isn't then the true open beta will just be on the 18th.

[rannion]

Not sure, just the feeling I've gotten from the forum - can't quote anything from beta b/c NDA/CoC. I'm surprised that an open beta hasn't started to be honest. Actually, I'm not surprised at all considering the divide that the trait trees have created among the community. I kind of hope they forgo opening bullroarer up just to make the release day a single point where the non-beta/forum-frequenters learn how different the game is. I'll have GLFF up for sure all day just to see what people think.

the trait trees aren't really the issue (though the out-of-spec penalty seems a bit high), the 'content' of the traits is..

[spelunker]

open beta will just be on the 18th.

This really is the only part of the quote that matters, and for quite a few classes it is 100% accurate. Its pretty standard practice for lotro at this point, but every expansion pack seems to be released as an even more unfinished product than the last.

This time around we aren't getting a release with modest bugs and changes whose impact we are yet to fully realize (which was how RoI launched). People were concerned about the warden being in a tough spot with RoI, but I don't think the magnitude of the problems introduced by finesse and changing mitigation caps were fully understood, and likely wouldn't have been FULLY obvious until going to live anyway. The Devs thought with minor tweaks and bug-fixes launch would be alright, and with the exception of wardens this was the case (even if the full raid content wasn't ready) This time around, the Devs KNOW the class changes aren't even close to done, they know and already have updates they are working on to patch known problems with classes, but aren't going to be done in time for release. At the rate changes have been coming, we'd need weeks more before enough of the needed changes to the classes in question would be instituted and further feedback provided to get them ready for a true release.

Releasing something you think is ready, only to realize you made some mistakes and things aren't working as you intend isn't good, but its forgivable (such as RoI and wardens). Releasing something people paid for, knowing full well its not even close to a finished product is a whole different story.

For the record to all the doom and gloom about not being able to tank: Unless the as yet unimplemented stat changes really knock everyone down about 10 pegs, content is still easy enough that there isn't a need for a tank equal to what guards will likely be able to do. This doesn't justify the disparity, but warden's won't be so bad off that they can't get the job done, it will just be harder on the healer and dps will have to be more mindful, as compared to a Guard.

[Mysterion]

For the record to all the doom and gloom about not being able to tank: Unless the as yet unimplemented stat changes really knock everyone down about 10 pegs, content is still easy enough that there isn't a need for a tank equal to what guards will likely be able to do. This doesn't justify the disparity, but warden's won't be so bad off that they can't get the job done, it will just be harder on the healer and dps will have to be more mindful, as compared to a Guard.

That sounds exciting and super fun.

I haven't paid much attention to what instances are being scaled to 95 but it sounds like tanking doesn't really have much of a role in EB and going DPS is the way to go. Healing is also being described as irrelevant. So not being able to tank (possibly) is only relevant to skirmishes and old content that is scaled but ran into the ground 2 expansions ago.

The forums should definitely be fun next week. More so in general discussion or HD subforums but I still find some warden threads interesting.

[rannion]

For the record to all the doom and gloom about not being able to tank: Unless the as yet unimplemented stat changes really knock everyone down about 10 pegs

To clarify for people not in beta: on launch (and presumably not during beta, since I don't see how there's time to run another one and still incorporate what feedback there will be before launch) it will be the case that -- as i understand it, and there hasn't been too much information on this as yet -- different classes will have different mitigation/bpe/resist/PM?/TM? curves. (If this is wrong, could someone please explain it correctly? :P)

[Liltaro]

I'm pretty much guest here, since I'm not playing bunch of time, but am I reading it right? Do we still have NDA? Week before release? I don't remember, how it was with RoI or RoR, but I believe it was little more than a week.

Edit: Nvm, I'm stupid. Just found Sapience post about NDA lifted (4XI). Still, I feel that we had more information when for example RoI was starting. Even though information != understanding.

[furtim]

To clarify for people not in beta: on launch (and presumably not during beta, since I don't see how there's time to run another one and still incorporate what feedback there will be before launch) it will be the case that -- as i understand it, and there hasn't been too much information on this as yet -- different classes will have different mitigation/bpe/resist/PM?/TM? curves. (If this is wrong, could someone please explain it correctly? :P)

Actually, they're changing the curves for everyone, and there's no indication that there will be different curves by class (apart from the existing armour->mitigation differences between armour types). Specifically, you'll require more Rating points per percentage point in the resulting stat. So, just to pull some numbers out of nowhere, you might have a situation like:

Live: 5000 Block Rating -> 20% Block Chance
HD: 5000 Block Rating -> 15% Block Chance

Again, those numbers are completely made up, but that's the gist of what we've been told to expect.

[OldRanger]

So here is a request in the post HD world why not just give people the relevant derived number as the stat: Dodge = 15% rather than Dodge = 5000, now go find a web resource to know what that means. It would make things more accessible.

[Mysterion]

So here is a request in the post HD world why not just give people the relevant derived number as the stat: Dodge = 15% rather than Dodge = 5000, now go find a web resource to know what that means. It would make things more accessible.

I think the simple answer is that with rating you can more easily introduce diminishing returns as you get close to cap. With straight percentages you have a linear path from 0% block to whatever the cap is. I just wish you didn't have to hover over values to see what the percentage is. I always hate trying to buff up and then go to character panel and hover over block/parry/evade to see what the values are. There's a lua idea, stat tracker that shows your stats on panel on the screen.

[zashel02]

yea, they introduced rating with moria. things USED to be purely percentages, but they realized that 1% is always 1%, theres no room for growth there. *shakes fist at elder staff* why did you have to drop the last day before moria!!

[furtim]

There's a lua idea, stat tracker that shows your stats on panel on the screen.

That's actually a pretty good idea. It would let you see the benefits from both gear changes and temporary buffs in real time without cluttering your screen like the character panel does.