SHIELD Dwarf Runs through Moria Q&A - Notes on What Was Said

[Sapience]

@Pony-0
There is a single classic 3 man instance coming this Summer in U14. It is currently on Bullroarer if you want to check it out.

I'm not sure I'd call it a classic 3 man. Difficulty wise maybe, but in terms of rewards no. It's something the team had some extra time to shoehorn in and did so. I'd also caution, it's small. So again, I wouldn't liken it to what many people would consider a "traditional" or "classic" 3 man instance.

[Mar-Evayave]

*cough*

... let's keep this thread clear as it [raids] will no longer be a topic addressed in these runs.

So....

4. Can he ask the lore people if they can release what suggested naming schemes for Beornings will be so people can create placeholder characters for names that they want?
Sapience - That’s a really good idea and he will speak to them about it and see if they can’t get a post up about how you should name your Beorning.
HoarseDev - Says they're not at the naming phase yet.

I'm confused here. "create placeholder characters for names that they want" almost seems to imply that players could "reserve" names for their Beornings before the Beorning goes live, to prevent other players from taking the name(s) in question. Is that what this means? How would such a function work?

15. Some more information on swan pets. HoarseDev asked DEViled_Egg about the changes [Erika Ng, System Designer - Moochi]. According to them, new animations have been hooked up for the swan pets. They now waddle when walking and run whilst flapping if you run.

I have not had the opportunity to test U14 on BR (been way too busy), so this is the first I've heard of swan pets. How are they obtained? And why swans? Seems an unusual pet, compared to ducks or something like that.

42. Bare-chested humans because of Beornings.
Good suggestion. He'll pass it along.

How will this work for female humans? They can still be Beornings, but I personally do not want nudity to be an option in this game. In bear-form the Beornings should be covered with fur and call it good, but when in human form these humans really should be clothed. Although I have wondered if perhaps there is coding that clearly distinguishes male from female, so that the bare-chested cosmetic simply couldn't be used by female humans. My understanding was that it worked fine for dwarves because the men and women look more or less the same (presumably under their tunics as much as facial?). Any input on how this would impact humans, though, which are very definitely different under there?

[Dernudan]

I'm not sure I'd call it a classic 3 man. Difficulty wise maybe, but in terms of rewards no. It's something the team had some extra time to shoehorn in and did so. I'd also caution, it's small. So again, I wouldn't liken it to what many people would consider a "traditional" or "classic" 3 man instance.

O, well thats to bad.

[Runesi_EU]

I'm confused here. "create placeholder characters for names that they want" almost seems to imply that players could "reserve" names for their Beornings before the Beorning goes live, to prevent other players from taking the name(s) in question. Is that what this means? How would such a function work?

Create a character of any class with the name you wish to use for your Beorning. When Beornings release delete said character safe in the knowledge that your name is now available for you to use.

[Mar-Evayave]

Create a character of any class with the name you wish to use for your Beorning. When Beornings release delete said character safe in the knowledge that your name is now available for you to use.

Ahh. I see. And then, assuming you can create your new beorning quickly, anyone else would literally have to move very fast and get very lucky in order to "steal" your name. Thanks for explaining.

[Jillymala]

*cough*



So....



I'm confused here. "create placeholder characters for names that they want" almost seems to imply that players could "reserve" names for their Beornings before the Beorning goes live, to prevent other players from taking the name(s) in question. Is that what this means? How would such a function work?

Its not a function, they'd create a dummy char with the names they wish to have for the Beorning

[frickinmuck]

I'm confused here. "create placeholder characters for names that they want" almost seems to imply that players could "reserve" names for their Beornings before the Beorning goes live, to prevent other players from taking the name(s) in question. Is that what this means? How would such a function work?

It's pretty easy to do. You just create a character with the name you want - you don't even have to bother with appearance or anything like that - and then leave it there for when you want to actually use that name. When you're ready to create your Beorning, you delete the placeholder and the name becomes available again, then create your Beorning.

I have not had the opportunity to test U14 on BR (been way too busy), so this is the first I've heard of swan pets. How are they obtained? And why swans? Seems an unusual pet, compared to ducks or something like that.

They are a faction barter reward. You need to brush up on your Dol Amroth lore! Swans are very connected with Dol Amroth.

How will this work for female humans? They can still be Beornings, but I personally do not want nudity to be an option in this game. In bear-form the Beornings should be covered with fur and call it good, but when in human form these humans really should be clothed. Although I have wondered if perhaps there is coding that clearly distinguishes male from female, so that the bare-chested cosmetic simply couldn't be used by female humans. My understanding was that it worked fine for dwarves because the men and women look more or less the same (presumably under their tunics as much as facial?). Any input on how this would impact humans, though, which are very definitely different under there?

I think it would be possible to make a female version of the cosmetic that maintains some modesty. Some kind of a light halter top or something.

[anthonyx]

This is an interesting discussion (and even though the question about raids/instances may no longer be answered, that doesn't mean that these questions will no longer be respectfully asked).

This discussion also highlights for me just how much of a disappointment the Epic Battles have been from a design perspective. Given the apparent fact that the traditional raid/instance clusters in the game were being (regularly?) utilized by only a relatively small subset of the population, I can see now that the Epic Battles were partially an attempt to design a grouping system that hopefully would be more open to and utilized by a larger slice of the player base (thus providing a better ROI from a cost/benefit standpoint). Hence, several design decisions: a) Implement upscaling (no trivial task) to allow characters to join Epic Battles from level 10 (even though this makes no sense from a lore perspective); b) Design an Epic Battles-only progression system that would allow anyone -- not just super-geared raiders -- to put points back into their characters to improve Epic Battle success; c) allow useful gear to drop that would also scale by level/reward.

Each of these aspects of Epic Battles, in theory, would allow these spaces to be more appealing and more accessible to a wider range of players than the typical instance-cluster, which often requires more complicated level/prerequisite/gear mechanics. Unfortunately, the upscaling turned out to be weak at best (again, this is no trivial task), and the progression system turned out to be problematic in two ways: Because of the desire to make the Epic Battles open to nearly anybody, the Battle-specific progression system (and of course the actual Battles) doesn't have much to do with one's regular class, and -- most importantly, I think -- the progression system is too punishing for low-ranked characters, thus defeating the goal of making the Battles accessible to a wider slice of players. Perhaps U14 will help with this last point. Also, the gear mechanics turned out to be too frustrating for many players. Notice that these are structural factors -- this leaves aside the question of whether the Epic Battles are "fun" or not. I happen to think that they aren't fun in the least, but at least I think I have a better understanding of why they were designed the way they were -- as a way to introduce instanced content that could be run by a larger segment of the player base.

I totally agree with you. I think that if the EB/BB were a success then people like myself would still be interested in running them in group numbers. As it is I hate them so much that I can not stomach it enough to take my alts through (though 2 did enough for the book). Even if they would have made them more like skirmishes and our classes played like our classes do in every other situation (other then session play) I think they would have been more widely accepted. Even the tinkering they are doing now with the BB in beta is still too little too late. I really do not understand how the devs could not anticipate the overall disappointment of not having class roles in BB. But I do hope that they introduce new BB that take into account that many people want to play the same character they have had for 95 plus levels.

[Sapience]

I've cleaned up this thread and I will remind everyone of the community guidelines. Because of the nature of this thread it should be considered an official thread. Attempts to derail it will be treated accordingly.

Also, so there is absollutely no doubt of confusion here, if you feel the need to post an inappropriate comment about another member you should be aware it is most likely to be the last post you make. Such comments will not be tolerated from anyone.

[Mar-Evayave]

They are a faction barter reward. You need to brush up on your Dol Amroth lore! Swans are very connected with Dol Amroth.

I think it would be possible to make a female version of the cosmetic that maintains some modesty. Some kind of a light halter top or something.

lol I know, I know. xD I'm a bit rusty with south Gondor lore. That said, even with swans there, aren't they wild? Did people down there really keep swans as pets?

And for the cosmetic, is that even possible? For a single piece of cosmetic to give two completely different appearances, one completely gone for the fellas and one a light halter-top for the ladies? Would a halter-top even be appropriate in Middle-Earth lore?

[kickman77]

Create a character of any class with the name you wish to use for your Beorning. When Beornings release delete said character safe in the knowledge that your name is now available for you to use.

Yes but would that not be a violation of the game... its stopping someone from enjoying the game by putting a placeholder for you... it may cause another player who wants that name grief... to me this is an exploit and I don't like people doing it.

[Runesi_EU]

Yes but would that not be a violation of the game...

I doubt it, its been done in every MMO I have played in for years. Often when I start a new MMO I fill up all my character slots with the names I wish to reserve, then when I want to start an alt for real I simply delete the character with the name I want to use and then create the alt I want.

Everyone else is free to do the same, I don't see it as a big deal to be honest.

[bobbylobs]

lol I know, I know. xD I'm a bit rusty with south Gondor lore. That said, even with swans there, aren't they wild? Did people down there really keep swans as pets?

And for the cosmetic, is that even possible? For a single piece of cosmetic to give two completely different appearances, one completely gone for the fellas and one a light halter-top for the ladies? Would a halter-top even be appropriate in Middle-Earth lore?

I answered that earlier Mar but for resons i am not sure of Sapience deleted it, but no no pet swans, there isnt even any reason to think swans actually live there, the "swan" comes from the banner of dol amroth which shows a boat shaped like a swan, it comes from Amroth who threw himself into the sea after Nimrodel his love didnt show up to sail to the undying lands with him.They took that banner after that.

So swan pets is very tenuous as best, in fact pretty pathetic IMO

[frickinmuck]

lol I know, I know. xD I'm a bit rusty with south Gondor lore. That said, even with swans there, aren't they wild? Did people down there really keep swans as pets?

Did people keep huorns as pets? As far as I can see, the concept of the cosmetic pets is that pets are offered that are associated with some aspect of the content. Huorns for Fangorn, chickens for Hobnanigans, swans for Dol Amroth. Those who feel that breaks their experience of the lore have the option to disable them.

And for the cosmetic, is that even possible? For a single piece of cosmetic to give two completely different appearances, one completely gone for the fellas and one a light halter-top for the ladies? Would a halter-top even be appropriate in Middle-Earth lore?

Don't know whether it's possible, but no, I don't think that a lighter piece of clothing would be inappropriate. I have confidence in the artists' ability to create something that would fit within Middle Earth. I don't think female characters should be so heavily covered just because they're female.

[Lunasa]

@Pony-0
There is a single classic 3 man instance coming this Summer in U14. It is currently on Bullroarer if you want to check it out.

There is no classic 3man instance in U14. You can check it on Bullroarer. There is only a small, very small 3man instance with repeatable quests (I would call them "dailies" if there were not biweekly). It is not much different from the Limlight Gorge landscape dailies with the only two differences: 1) you have to take a boat to access that piece of a landscape, 2) you can do it only 2 times per week.

[Dernudan]

There is no classic 3man instance in U14. You can check it on Bullroarer. There is only a small, very small 3man instance with repeatable quests (I would call them "dailies" if there were not biweekly). It is not much different from the Limlight Gorge landscape dailies with the only two differences: 1) you have to take a boat to access that piece of a landscape, 2) you can do it only 2 times per week.

Ok, I was basing on the release notes. I have not tested out the new content yet as to not give away spoilers.

[Mar-Evayave]

Did people keep huorns as pets? As far as I can see, the concept of the cosmetic pets is that pets are offered that are associated with some aspect of the content. Huorns for Fangorn, chickens for Hobnanigans, swans for Dol Amroth. Those who feel that breaks their experience of the lore have the option to disable them.

Don't know whether it's possible, but no, I don't think that a lighter piece of clothing would be inappropriate. I have confidence in the artists' ability to create something that would fit within Middle Earth. I don't think female characters should be so heavily covered just because they're female.

True, that. Especially when the little huorn pets just look like they've been c/p and then scaled down in size, instead of made from scratch to actually look like saplings. It'd be like taking a fully-grown pine tree and scaling it down. No baby pine tree looks like an exact replica of its future older self. They look scraggly and Charlie-Brown's-Christmas-tree-ish.

The thing with females being covered properly is that it is not modern Earth and it's not Game of Thrones. It's Tolkien's Middle-Earth. Women didn't walk casually around in their underwear (or less) the way they do now. While some of them (like the elves) wore very elegant and flowing garb (very much the way the movies portrayed them, I would imagine) that wasn't shy about showing shoulders and whatnot, they were far from scantily clad. So, heavily covered? No. Modestly covered? Most definitely.

My opposition to a halter-top was more in reference to the style of clothing though. Modesty aside, is it likely that women in Middle-Earth would have worn something like that? Replace the word halter-top with the word hijab. Modesty isn't even an issue there, but is it something that women would have worn?

[frickinmuck]

True, that. Especially when the little huorn pets just look like they've been c/p and then scaled down in size, instead of made from scratch to actually look like saplings. It'd be like taking a fully-grown pine tree and scaling it down. No baby pine tree looks like an exact replica of its future older self. They look scraggly and Charlie-Brown's-Christmas-tree-ish.

They've always reminded me of bonsai huorns.

The thing with females being covered properly is that it is not modern Earth and it's not Game of Thrones. It's Tolkien's Middle-Earth. Women didn't walk casually around in their underwear (or less) the way they do now. While some of them (like the elves) wore very elegant and flowing garb (very much the way the movies portrayed them, I would imagine) that wasn't shy about showing shoulders and whatnot, they were far from scantily clad. So, heavily covered? No. Modestly covered? Most definitely.

My opposition to a halter-top was more in reference to the style of clothing though. Modesty aside, is it likely that women in Middle-Earth would have worn something like that? Replace the word halter-top with the word hijab. Modesty isn't even an issue there, but is it something that women would have worn?

Tolkien didn't write about all the bare-chested Dwarves who run around Bree, either, but we have those. I don't think I ever recall reading about a bare-chested person of any race in any of the books, but of course I don't remember every detail I came across. As for how women should be handled with regard to the potential for more bare-chested cosmetics, I'm sure LotRO's many lore experts will discuss it (in fact, they've probably already been discussing it), and come up with a solution that takes all these issues into account. Nothing gets in game without first going through the licensor, too, so it's not up to any one person to decide.

[Warmutkan]

Quick question about cosmetic topless mechanics - how do they work?

For the dwarf, for example, what does the cosmetic "show"? Is it akin to a shirt that happens to appear to be a bare chest? Or is it a lack of clothing on that part of the avatar, revealing whatever is underneath (i.e., dwarf bits)?

If it's 'clothing', would the topless version for female toons just show a male bare chest? And if it's the 'bare underneath', can I assume safely that the devs left the avatars in 'Barbie form' - incomplete, so to speak?

I play a female captain for my main but would have absolutely no interest in anything close to nudity for her.

[Sapience]

Quick question about cosmetic topless mechanics - how do they work?

For the dwarf, for example, what does the cosmetic "show"? Is it akin to a shirt that happens to appear to be a bare chest?

Correct. If you stripped all your gear off your character they'd be wearing a kind of underwear. There is no real 'nude' option. The bare chested cosmetic is simply equipped and functions like a shirt.

[Mar-Evayave]

Tolkien didn't write about all the bare-chested Dwarves who run around Bree, either, but we have those. I don't think I ever recall reading about a bare-chested person of any race in any of the books, but of course I don't remember every detail I came across. As for how women should be handled with regard to the potential for more bare-chested cosmetics, I'm sure LotRO's many lore experts will discuss it (in fact, they've probably already been discussing it), and come up with a solution that takes all these issues into account. Nothing gets in game without first going through the licensor, too, so it's not up to any one person to decide.

Well, the hobbits go about naked from time to time in private. Naked in the dark and whatnot. The hobbits are naked when captive by the wights, if memory serves, not to mention when Frodo is held captive in the tower. The latter was obviously not by choice, but I'm pretty sure there is a reference about willingly being naked in the dark. So I could totally understand hobbit fellows running around with their shirts off. And human fellas have been topless for centuries. I can't imagine elves would be too terribly different. I really don't see it being uncommon for pretty much any race for the males to be topless from time to time. Dwarves running around Bree isn't common to begin with. But if they are there, why not do whatever they might normally do at home? I just think there is a very significant difference between topless males in Middle-Earth and topless females in Middle-Earth, regardless of their race (with the exception of the dwarves).

[Moochi]

And for the cosmetic, is that even possible? For a single piece of cosmetic to give two completely different appearances, one completely gone for the fellas and one a light halter-top for the ladies? Would a halter-top even be appropriate in Middle-Earth lore?

Quick question about cosmetic topless mechanics - how do they work?

For the dwarf, for example, what does the cosmetic "show"? Is it akin to a shirt that happens to appear to be a bare chest? Or is it a lack of clothing on that part of the avatar, revealing whatever is underneath (i.e., dwarf bits)?

If it's 'clothing', would the topless version for female toons just show a male bare chest? And if it's the 'bare underneath', can I assume safely that the devs left the avatars in 'Barbie form' - incomplete, so to speak?

I play a female captain for my main but would have absolutely no interest in anything close to nudity for her.

We already have items in the game which display differently on female characters than they do on male characters. The [Tattered Hat] we often see in lootboxes is one example of this. On female characters, it is vertically symmetrical with a large feather on the left side. On male characters, there is no feather, a band and buckle is added, and the right side is rolled up.

As long as the words "bare-chested" and "topless" were abandoned in lieu of something like "Ferocious Beorning's Garb", they could deliver one item to the character, and make it display as topless for the males and something less revealing for the females and dwarves.

[Whart]

In the future, as relates to these events, the question on raids will be passed. If you'd like to continue the discussion please feel free to use the raids forum, but let's keep this thread clear as it will no longer be a topic addressed in these runs.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm really just looking for clarification, not expressing any opinion. The threads in the raids forum on this topic are mostly closed, one with a reminder about the CoC regarding reposting closed topics. Is there an allowable place for those of us who want to discuss an interest in seeing new group content to do that, or is it considered a closed topic? I just want to know where it's ok to continue the conversation if this is the wrong thread for that (or if it's just not something that we can do anymore, then that would be good to know so we don't run afoul of the rules).

Also, I think the only outstanding question that the 'raiders' have is similar to mine from earlier in the thread (which echoes similar questions by other posters in this thread and others) about how raid use is defined/measured in your percentage. I honestly don't think people are accusing Turbine of making things up when they say they 'don't trust' that number; I think what they really mean is 'we don't know how that number was derived, so we don't know what to make of it.' Your answers on future content and the reasons behind various decisions are clear, so I agree that there's no need to revisit them, but there's this one lingering tickle in the back of our minds about where that 'single digit percentage' comes from, and if it were answered as clearly as you've answered the other questions, I'd bet that most of this conversation would be done. Yes of course you'd get the odd 'but that's the wrong way to count,' but who cares about that--the answer would be out there in a clear understandable way, and that's the answer. I can't speak for anyone else, but that's the last answer I need to see and then I'd be done with the whole group issue.

[frickinmuck]

I just think there is a very significant difference between topless males in Middle-Earth and topless females in Middle-Earth, regardless of their race (with the exception of the dwarves).

The problem with this issue is that it really quickly becomes a political one, and I don't think that's a path we need to go down right now. I believe that it's an extremely offensive notion that males can run around without shirts, but females are somehow shameful and should be fully covered. There are a multitude of ways in which females can be allowed a bare-chested equivalent that is modest and not sleazy looking, and I hope they are being explored by the lore people. I trust them to handle this respectfully. And by respectfully I mean, honoring the desire for female characters to not be left out of this feature.

[Herwegur]

There are a multitude of ways in which females can be allowed a bare-chested equivalent that is modest and not sleazy looking, and I hope they are being explored by the lore people.

Please elaborate. I'm all ears!