We really need a damage boost from Beorning's skills.

[Hurshid]

Now beornings have problems with damage. Mostly, in raids Beornings take in as the main AOE heal. The damage level of beornings is extremely low, while even Captains give out much more damage.

[Knight19]

I hate to ruin the dream here but bears were never really intended to be a dps class. As much as the class description claims they are damage/support that has never really been the case. The real question is why would you try to force yourself into a dps roll when bears are such incredible tanks and healers? If you want a decent heavy melee dps class they have champs for that

[Hurshid]

champ good tank and good dps solo aoe ! bear doesn't have one!
the problem is that in all classes the damage is large, but in the bear it was not increased

[Zohal]

champ good tank ...

Ummm, like Captain is a good ranged dps? Or Warden a good healer? Or Hunter a good support class?

[RudieR]

Beornings DPS is very lacking nowadays, especially since the recent Fate fix. Landscape and leveling wise they are fine, however, in a raid they are not. I primarily heal as Beorning and consider that its primary role, but I wouldn't be opposed to making the class a viable damage dealer.

With 600k critical rating, 710k physical mastery, 216k finesse and the 4 DPS set pieces from T2+ Remmorchant, I'm averaging merely 75k dps on a 3 minute parse on the house training dummy (specced for both -15% physical mitigation from bees yellow line and +15% incoming damage from armour crush blue line). Before the fate fix this was higher, but still not nearly as much as hunters/champs/burgs/rks.

[AaronIU]

Beornings DPS is very lacking nowadays, especially since the recent Fate fix. Landscape and leveling wise they are fine, however, in a raid they are not. I primarily heal as Beorning and consider that its primary role, but I wouldn't be opposed to making the class a viable damage dealer.

With 600k critical rating, 710k physical mastery, 216k finesse and the 4 DPS set pieces from T2+ Remmorchant, I'm averaging merely 75k dps on a 3 minute parse on the house training dummy (specced for both -15% physical mitigation from bees yellow line and +15% incoming damage from armour crush blue line). Before the fate fix this was higher, but still not nearly as much as hunters/champs/burgs/rks.

A few contributing factors are glaring here, you’re 150k shy of mastery cap, and fairly low on crit rating/magnitude. These two factors alone probably compensate for a good portion of the damage you’re missing. Compounding that is probably a sub-optimal rotation. Rotational changes on most classes can vary from “average” to “good” to “near-perfect” and the difference in dps is STAGGERING. With literally just practice over and over and over with rotational changes I went from ~106k to ~116k to 133k to 153k. Very little gear change was made, just optimizing rotation. Sure, Warden dps rotations are a bit complex but it highlights the difference in rotational proficiency.

[mrfigglesworth]

A few contributing factors are glaring here, you’re 150k shy of mastery cap, and fairly low on crit rating/magnitude. These two factors alone probably compensate for a good portion of the damage you’re missing. Compounding that is probably a sub-optimal rotation. Rotational changes on most classes can vary from “average” to “good” to “near-perfect” and the difference in dps is STAGGERING. With literally just practice over and over and over with rotational changes I went from ~106k to ~116k to 133k to 153k. Very little gear change was made, just optimizing rotation. Sure, Warden dps rotations are a bit complex but it highlights the difference in rotational proficiency.

any vid to show this range of parse on 3 min dummy would be appreciated.

[AaronIU]

any vid to show this range of parse on 3 min dummy would be appreciated.

I never took a video of my early parses, I surely can’t unlearn rotational proficiency to video it now. Warden dps rotations have a lot of factors to coordinate for efficiency. Sub-optimal mastery usage is a major cause for low parses, for instance. This may be an extreme example for Beorn which is much simpler, but it does highlight the need to optimize rotations and skill usage.

[mrfigglesworth]

I never took a video of my early parses, I surely can’t unlearn rotational proficiency to video it now. Warden dps rotations have a lot of factors to coordinate for efficiency. Sub-optimal mastery usage is a major cause for low parses, for instance. This may be an extreme example for Beorn which is much simpler, but it does highlight the need to optimize rotations and skill usage.

I may have misunderstood you. You're saying you do 130k plus dps on warden or bear?

[Omen_Kaizer]

I may have misunderstood you. You're saying you do 130k plus dps on warden or bear?

He's saying he got that range of numbers on Warden and is using it--with caveats that it's not totally apples to apples--to make the point that there may exist a range of bear dps parses based on different bear dps rotations. He's saying the dude may still have room to improve even if he gets to stat cap (or, better, stat caps minus scrolls food and red cappy buffs w/o blade brother)

[Hurshid]

UP !

[Hurshid]

inflict damage equal champion!
weak dots and total damage

[AaronIU]

He's saying he got that range of numbers on Warden and is using it--with caveats that it's not totally apples to apples--to make the point that there may exist a range of bear dps parses based on different bear dps rotations. He's saying the dude may still have room to improve even if he gets to stat cap (or, better, stat caps minus scrolls food and red cappy buffs w/o blade brother)

Thank you for summing that up. Yes, I was trying to highlight that (yes I understand the classes are not the same) but, rotational optimization and proficiency matters more than just gear and stats once you reach a certain point. Rather than take the easy route and say "hey ssg, boost our dps" look at what you can do to improve your class knowledge and performance. I say this because I've seen some good dps numbers from other Bears, and if you work to bridge the gap of where you are vs where they are, you can likely get close to those numbers as well.

[Hurshid]

@AaronIU
when creating the character of Beoring, the role is written - damage!

then he must deal damage like a champion!
Beorning role - damage
Champ role - damage

questions?

[RudieR]

A few contributing factors are glaring here, you’re 150k shy of mastery cap, and fairly low on crit rating/magnitude. These two factors alone probably compensate for a good portion of the damage you’re missing. Compounding that is probably a sub-optimal rotation. Rotational changes on most classes can vary from “average” to “good” to “near-perfect” and the difference in dps is STAGGERING. With literally just practice over and over and over with rotational changes I went from ~106k to ~116k to 133k to 153k. Very little gear change was made, just optimizing rotation. Sure, Warden dps rotations are a bit complex but it highlights the difference in rotational proficiency.

I agree with what you're saying. My rotation however is, although by no means perfect, quite optimalised after years of trying to maximise its output. In some ways it is similar to the rotation in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxxXSTlF6D0. And yes, I'm well aware that I'm not capped on physical mastery (I parsed with five mitigation virtues). Nevertheless, it still gives a general indication of the numbers that people realistically can expect with similar numbers.

I say this because I've seen some good dps numbers from other Bears, and if you work to bridge the gap of where you are vs where they are, you can likely get close to those numbers as well.

Agreed. But post-Fate fix you cannot reach those numbers anymore, partially because Beornings rely heavily on critical damage due to their 40%-45% cirtical hit chance. The damage from Ferocious Roar + Brutal Maul combo has been halved as a consequence of the Fate fix, which is by far the most damaging contributor in a dps parse. Min-maxed Beornings could average 90k-100k DPS before the raid was even released.

While I don't mind either way, I think a damage increase is warranted if the developers want to consider Beornings as a viable DPS class. Perhaps by applying the same approach as the increase to base heals that accompanied the Fate fix.

[Hurshid]

@RudieR YES ! said everything as it should

[Anoregon]

@AaronIU
when creating the character of Beoring, the role is written - damage!

then he must deal damage like a champion!
Beorning role - damage
Champ role - damage

questions?

Yeah, it's pretty odd that the game itself lists Beorning as a "Damage/support" class, does not list healer at all, but so many people seem content for healer to be the only viable endgame role for them.

[AaronIU]

I agree with what you're saying. My rotation however is, although by no means perfect, quite optimalised after years of trying to maximise its output. In some ways it is similar to the rotation in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxxXSTlF6D0. And yes, I'm well aware that I'm not capped on physical mastery (I parsed with five mitigation virtues). Nevertheless, it still gives a general indication of the numbers that people realistically can expect with similar numbers.



Agreed. But post-Fate fix you cannot reach those numbers anymore, partially because Beornings rely heavily on critical damage due to their 40%-45% cirtical hit chance. The damage from Ferocious Roar + Brutal Maul combo has been halved as a consequence of the Fate fix, which is by far the most damaging contributor in a dps parse. Min-maxed Beornings could average 90k-100k DPS before the raid was even released.

While I don't mind either way, I think a damage increase is warranted if the developers want to consider Beornings as a viable DPS class. Perhaps by applying the same approach as the increase to base heals that accompanied the Fate fix.

I never looked at Bear tooltips before and after the Fate change, but I was pretty well versed with how fate affected dps. I don't see Brutal maul as a skill, can you post what tooltips you have (sorry my Beorning is just a low level atm). Maybe I could help to understand how fate did or didn't affect your skills.

I've repeatedly tried to get the Devs to compensate damage for passive amounts of fate, which is something they did for RK.. but have refused to do with other classes. They have done a bit of work to compensate heals for the loss of fate, but failed to do so for warden even after this long. I really have no faith in their ability to accept feedback and process raw data that we've given them.

As far as that video goes, that was posted in Dec, which is pre-raid and very early in the update while a lot of people were very far from stat caps and not a lot of fate was stacked.. you can't really take those numbers as a standard to ask for class balance.

Warden is considered a tanking class.. and well... ya.. you see how that works for them. There's no real legitimate reason for a bear to have raid capable dps, best healing, and best tanking... (arguable with mechanics vs cappy). THat is class disparity, not balance.

[RudieR]

I never looked at Bear tooltips before and after the Fate change, but I was pretty well versed with how fate affected dps. I don't see Brutal maul as a skill, can you post what tooltips you have (sorry my Beorning is just a low level atm). Maybe I could help to understand how fate did or didn't affect your skills.

I've repeatedly tried to get the Devs to compensate damage for passive amounts of fate, which is something they did for RK.. but have refused to do with other classes. They have done a bit of work to compensate heals for the loss of fate, but failed to do so for warden even after this long. I really have no faith in their ability to accept feedback and process raw data that we've given them.

As far as that video goes, that was posted in Dec, which is pre-raid and very early in the update while a lot of people were very far from stat caps and not a lot of fate was stacked.. you can't really take those numbers as a standard to ask for class balance.

Warden is considered a tanking class.. and well... ya.. you see how that works for them. There's no real legitimate reason for a bear to have raid capable dps, best healing, and best tanking... (arguable with mechanics vs cappy). THat is class disparity, not balance.

Brutal Maul = Relentless Maul. The tooltip changes from Relentless Maul to Brutal Maul once you have spent 20 points into red line. Regarding the video, I referred to it purely for rotational purposes, not for the damage numbers whatsoever. It shows for instance animation cutting with Vicious Claws, which is one of those niche things that not everyone is aware of.

To give you an example how fate affected this particular skill: before the fix, Brutal Maul - after using Ferocious Roar, which guarantees a critical hit for all 4 ticks - did ~240k damage per hit for me. After the fate fix, this was reduced to ~120k damage per hit.

[AaronIU]

Brutal Maul = Relentless Maul. The tooltip changes from Relentless Maul to Brutal Maul once you have spent 20 points into red line. Regarding the video, I referred to it purely for rotational purposes, not for the damage numbers whatsoever. It shows for instance animation cutting with Vicious Claws, which is one of those niche things that not everyone is aware of.

To give you an example how fate affected this particular skill: before the fix, Brutal Maul - after using Ferocious Roar, which guarantees a critical hit for all 4 ticks - did ~240k damage per hit for me. After the fate fix, this was reduced to ~120k damage per hit.

Thanks for clarifying that about the skill. So, Fate had zero effect on melee non-tactical skills (i.e. champ/burg/etc) outside of it's typical x2.5 crit rating. This crit rating component was not change, however, what was changed was Fates ability to drastically increase the DOT component (think warden bleeds), Tactical melee (think Warden light damage) and Tactical ranged (think RK) damage. I don't know the ins and outs of Brutal maul, but it's listed as a melee skill, so likely it' wasn't affected the way you thought it was effected by Fate (correlation =/= causation). For instance, warden bleeds; the initial hit was not affected by Fate, the non-critical hits of the DOT was not affected by fate (to the same magnitude) however.. the critical hits were affected by a magnitude relative to the amount of Fate that was present. Most people who didn't know that Fate had this effect stacked a passive amount of Fate 10-15k while some saw what fate was doing and stacked 40K (where it was a pretty hard cap on it's effect but some people didn't see that and stacked to 60k) of course the hard cap part is still up for debate that no one can prove each other wrong now. Either way, at a near passive amount of Fate your crit hits could increase by ~30-50% of their non-fate values. A 80k bleed could hit for ~120k with enough fate but this is somewhat off subject... what I'm trying to say is, FATE didn't double critical hits. When they nerfed fate, certain warden skills were also grossly affected Spear of Virtue secondary bleeds went from 50k to 3k every 4s. This had nothing to do with fate, but rather a calculation in the weapon dps scaling and I see that as the likely issue here too, rather than Fate.

[Omen_Kaizer]

Thanks for clarifying that about the skill. So, Fate had zero effect on melee non-tactical skills (i.e. champ/burg/etc) outside of it's typical x2.5 crit rating. This crit rating component was not change, however, what was changed was Fates ability to drastically increase the DOT component (think warden bleeds), Tactical melee (think Warden light damage) and Tactical ranged (think RK) damage. I don't know the ins and outs of Brutal maul, but it's listed as a melee skill, so likely it' wasn't affected the way you thought it was effected by Fate (correlation =/= causation). For instance, warden bleeds; the initial hit was not affected by Fate, the non-critical hits of the DOT was not affected by fate (to the same magnitude) however.. the critical hits were affected by a magnitude relative to the amount of Fate that was present. Most people who didn't know that Fate had this effect stacked a passive amount of Fate 10-15k while some saw what fate was doing and stacked 40K (where it was a pretty hard cap on it's effect but some people didn't see that and stacked to 60k) of course the hard cap part is still up for debate that no one can prove each other wrong now. Either way, at a near passive amount of Fate your crit hits could increase by ~30-50% of their non-fate values. A 80k bleed could hit for ~120k with enough fate but this is somewhat off subject... what I'm trying to say is, FATE didn't double critical hits. When they nerfed fate, certain warden skills were also grossly affected Spear of Virtue secondary bleeds went from 50k to 3k every 4s. This had nothing to do with fate, but rather a calculation in the weapon dps scaling and I see that as the likely issue here too, rather than Fate.

Beat me to it about fate. Never ever affected crit magnitude of melee and ranged crits. Just bleed tic crits (regardless of source for whatever reason) and tactical source crits. Bears got a lot of bleeds that would have been affected but Maul doesnt make sense. #### happens though, maybe it was coded different than other melee skills. But I like your idea that if they broke the proc dots from Spear of Virtue in U26 unrelated to fate they could have just broken Bear skills unrelated to fate too. Or like they hit Captain GW and CA bleeds when they buffed our Blade of Elendil in 26.1.

But, to correct Aaron, initial hits of "tactical melee" like the Warden's Brink or Surety weren't affected regardless of them doing light damage; that's just tactical type, not tactical source (turbine shouldnt have used the same word for two things). Just the light damage dot tics, like the bleed tics from Unerring, etc. Same with Captain's Shadow's Lament (light damage) never having been wffected by fate.

[Soragrim]

Thanks for clarifying that about the skill. So, Fate had zero effect on melee non-tactical skills (i.e. champ/burg/etc) outside of it's typical x2.5 crit rating. This crit rating component was not change, however, what was changed was Fates ability to drastically increase the DOT component (think warden bleeds), Tactical melee (think Warden light damage) and Tactical ranged (think RK) damage. I don't know the ins and outs of Brutal maul, but it's listed as a melee skill, so likely it' wasn't affected the way you thought it was effected by Fate (correlation =/= causation). For instance, warden bleeds; the initial hit was not affected by Fate, the non-critical hits of the DOT was not affected by fate (to the same magnitude) however.. the critical hits were affected by a magnitude relative to the amount of Fate that was present. Most people who didn't know that Fate had this effect stacked a passive amount of Fate 10-15k while some saw what fate was doing and stacked 40K (where it was a pretty hard cap on it's effect but some people didn't see that and stacked to 60k) of course the hard cap part is still up for debate that no one can prove each other wrong now. Either way, at a near passive amount of Fate your crit hits could increase by ~30-50% of their non-fate values. A 80k bleed could hit for ~120k with enough fate but this is somewhat off subject... what I'm trying to say is, FATE didn't double critical hits. When they nerfed fate, certain warden skills were also grossly affected Spear of Virtue secondary bleeds went from 50k to 3k every 4s. This had nothing to do with fate, but rather a calculation in the weapon dps scaling and I see that as the likely issue here too, rather than Fate.

Critical magnitude from brutal maul, bash/slash/serrated edge dots were actually affected by fate. Beorning's dps sadly is non-existing since the nerf.

[mrplaneswalker]

Thanks for clarifying that about the skill. So, Fate had zero effect on melee non-tactical skills (i.e. champ/burg/etc) outside of it's typical x2.5 crit rating. This crit rating component was not change, however, what was changed was Fates ability to drastically increase the DOT component (think warden bleeds), Tactical melee (think Warden light damage) and Tactical ranged (think RK) damage. I don't know the ins and outs of Brutal maul, but it's listed as a melee skill, so likely it' wasn't affected the way you thought it was effected by Fate (correlation =/= causation). For instance, warden bleeds; the initial hit was not affected by Fate, the non-critical hits of the DOT was not affected by fate (to the same magnitude) however.. the critical hits were affected by a magnitude relative to the amount of Fate that was present. Most people who didn't know that Fate had this effect stacked a passive amount of Fate 10-15k while some saw what fate was doing and stacked 40K (where it was a pretty hard cap on it's effect but some people didn't see that and stacked to 60k) of course the hard cap part is still up for debate that no one can prove each other wrong now. Either way, at a near passive amount of Fate your crit hits could increase by ~30-50% of their non-fate values. A 80k bleed could hit for ~120k with enough fate but this is somewhat off subject... what I'm trying to say is, FATE didn't double critical hits. When they nerfed fate, certain warden skills were also grossly affected Spear of Virtue secondary bleeds went from 50k to 3k every 4s. This had nothing to do with fate, but rather a calculation in the weapon dps scaling and I see that as the likely issue here too, rather than Fate.

Aaron, mate.

You're telling a bunch of guys who play bear what a skill is supposed to do. They're telling you what the skill actually does.

Before the fate fixes, beorning was parsing for more, after it was parsing for less.

Perhaps taking a moment to listen to what the people in this thread are trying to explain would be a good idea. You're right that fate doesn't have an impact on "melee" damage. However you neglect that all healing is technically tactical "damage" and beornings damage is actually routed through the tactical system because they have the capacity to heal in a certain spec. (their skills do not follow the normal rules of melee & tactical skills).

[Hurshid]

+ the execution is broken

[RudieR]

Aaron, mate.

You're telling a bunch of guys who play bear what a skill is supposed to do. They're telling you what the skill actually does.

Before the fate fixes, beorning was parsing for more, after it was parsing for less.

Perhaps taking a moment to listen to what the people in this thread are trying to explain would be a good idea. You're right that fate doesn't have an impact on "melee" damage. However you neglect that all healing is technically tactical "damage" and beornings damage is actually routed through the tactical system because they have the capacity to heal in a certain spec. (their skills do not follow the normal rules of melee & tactical skills).

Yeah this. Most people are aware that the fate fix technically shouldn't have affected Beo dps so much. But the day that that patch went live (Update 26), Beo dps got gutted. It probably was one of those unintended side effects.

+ the execution is broken

Almost forgot about that skill. Execute has been broken ever since the Beorning revamp ~2 years ago. I believe it was intended to do 100% more damage than what it does now, but even then it would be a waste to spend trait points on it because losing all your wrath doesn't make up for one hit that does less damage than 1 tick from Brutal Maul. The idea behind the skill is nice though, so I hope it will be fixed one day.