Revert Oathbreaker Changes @Vastin

[Hephburz-2]

At level 120 you implemented the following change;

You added a debuff/buff onto targets that had been inflicted with the Captain Skill "Oathbreakers Shame", that prevented them from having Oathies used on them again for 3minutes (the cooldown of the skill). We are all but certain this change was done as a result of the Osgiliath Red-Line Captain set, which gave Captains a chance to reset Oathbreakers Shame on Shadows Lament (which enables up to 6 Oathbreaker casts within 4.30-5minutes~ providing both Captains have the set), at the time, the stat differentiation between 105 and 120 was not so significant that you could afford to have a Captain using this set, if they had it - as I understand there are some technical issues which prevent this gear from being level-capped in the same way that other armour sets are.

This created an environment whereby 2 Red Captains (which, for a long time had been a staple to raids), were no longer welcome, and instead moved to what we see now, one Yellow Captain and one Red Captain, due to the nature of the buffs that Captains provide it is almost impossible to forgo one Captain in each group at end-game raiding content, in situations where you only require one tank, by defualt this becomes a Yellow Captain, which automatically excludes the 4 other tanking classes in the game (I'm not going to argue that reverting this change alone will fix the tanking issue, but it's a first step).

I would argue now that enough time has passed, and there is enough stat differentiation between such armour set and between the minimal requirements for T3+ raiding content, that this change should be reverted, and we SHOULD be allowed to take two Red Captains as we once did, thus allowing for two Oathbreakers, BUT, also making way for other tanks to get into content.

If not now, then at the next level cap, some serious thought should be given to reverting this change.

[Kander]

At level 120 you implemented the following change;

You added a debuff/buff onto targets that had been inflicted with the Captain Skill "Oathbreakers Shame", that prevented them from having Oathies used on them again for 3minutes (the cooldown of the skill). We are all but certain this change was done as a result of the Osgiliath Red-Line Captain set, which gave Captains a chance to reset Oathbreakers Shame on Shadows Lament (which enables up to 6 Oathbreaker casts within 4.30-5minutes~ providing both Captains have the set), at the time, the stat differentiation between 105 and 120 was not so significant that you could afford to have a Captain using this set, if they had it - as I understand there are some technical issues which prevent this gear from being level-capped in the same way that other armour sets are.

This created an environment whereby 2 Red Captains (which, for a long time had been a staple to raids), were no longer welcome, and instead moved to what we see now, one Yellow Captain and one Red Captain, due to the nature of the buffs that Captains provide it is almost impossible to forgo one Captain in each group at end-game raiding content, in situations where you only require one tank, by defualt this becomes a Yellow Captain, which automatically excludes the 4 other tanking classes in the game (I'm not going to argue that reverting this change alone will fix the tanking issue, but it's a first step).

I would argue now that enough time has passed, and there is enough stat differentiation between such armour set and between the minimal requirements for T3+ raiding content, that this change should be reverted, and we SHOULD be allowed to take two Red Captains as we once did, thus allowing for two Oathbreakers, BUT, also making way for other tanks to get into content.

If not now, then at the next level cap, some serious thought should be given to reverting this change.

Signed, pretty much the only reason it was implemented was because that set was being consistently used, now it's not anymore, the change should revert or at least change the debuff you get so a different captain can still use oathbreakers on that target. It's obvious the reason you have 1 yellow captain + 1 red captain always is because the damage support they give is kinda similar in both specs and OB would be the only reason for it to go red. If there's no OB chance, captain is 100% required as yellow so no other tanks get the role. That said, this won't address the issue of captains being best tanks with not any class being close in that role but will certainly fix a problem.

[Contrarious]

tl;dr

you just want to spam Oathbreaker's Shame and trivialize burst

[balnuir]

How do 2 red cappy spots and a tank spot get replaced by 1 red and 1 yellow cappy spot tho?

[Hephburz-2]

tl;dr

you just want to spam Oathbreaker's Shame and trivialize burst

Ok, so, no? We had two captains chaining Oathies for a total of 40s for many years before this change was implemented and it was never a problem, it only became a problem because of the aforementioned Armour set I stated in my OP, now that said armour set is no longer relevant, this change/fix is no longer necessary.

How do 2 red cappy spots and a tank spot get replaced by 1 red and 1 yellow cappy spot tho?

In all raid environments that required 1 tank, it was usually (if not always) a Gaurdian i.e. 3rd and 6th boss in Throne, and even elsewhere, you would still run often run with 2 Guardians, there were only very niche fights where you used to take or be "required" to take a Captain tank. I'm not sitting here saying reverting this change is automatically going to fix the tanking imbalance, I said as much in my OP, but it is a FIRST step, in situations that only require one tank it would no longer be the case that it would HAVE to be a Yellow Captain, because there would already be one Captain per group anyway.

[pipje1]

I agree with what is being stated in this thread, however I think you don't even have to go all out and revert the change completely to make this work.
From my point of view it might already be worth getting 2 red cappies in the raid if you make a 'second' OB in that 3 minutes just do a little less incoming damage, so let's say +25% instead of +35%?
I personally think that 40s of +35% incoming damage can be too strong in certain moments and this would be a nice middle way.

What do you guys think?
Pros and cons of doing it this way?

[Joedangod]

Pros and cons of doing it this way?

You're maintaining the status quo of guaranteeing 2 Captains in every single raid group.

Quoting this as it's relevant:

For the most part we have no problem with emergency skills - usually short term burst effects with very high healing or mitigation ratios - as long as they aren't so strong that they break encounter mechanics outright, and as long as they have small uptime ratios (longer cooldowns, short effects).

However, over the years a number of effects that were originally built as this sort of emergency skill got promoted into versions with long uptimes, sometimes through ill-considered set bonuses, trait changes, or legacies, or just a designer who didn't realize how the effects could stack or rotate faster than expected resulting in much more powerful effects than intended.

As a result there are a fair number of abilities that provide high % buffs/debuffs with high uptimes or overlapping effects that dramatically reduce the challenge of a lot of encounters when used correctly, and frankly our content designers are having a very hard time balancing encounters around them.

These kinds of effects also tend to act as 'must picks' in terms of deciding group composition, which isn't an effect we're fond of either. The 'correct' group composition can survive orders of magnitude more incoming damage than a regular one that isn't built around these effects.

So yes, we're going through and trying to tone down some of the biggest boss debuffs and fellowship buffs, either in terms of magnitude/stacking/uptime to bring them more in line with other abilities.

-Vastin

Captain needs to see its passive auras and abilities reduced in effectiveness to be more in-line with what other specs bring. Alternatively they could adjust other specs up but I think we only really have yellow minstrel and maybe...blue LM? that actually have enough overlap with red Captain to be potentially considered as the same "role". I'm actually fine with red staying as it currently is and yellow minstrel stances being raised to an acceptable, non-stacking variant of motivating speech. Blue/Yellow needs to lose the auras and passive support though.

[Zaheer]

You're maintaining the status quo of guaranteeing 2 Captains in every single raid group.

Quoting this as it's relevant:



Captain needs to see its passive auras and abilities reduced in effectiveness to be more in-line with what other specs bring. Alternatively they could adjust other specs up but I think we only really have yellow minstrel and maybe...blue LM? that actually have enough overlap with red Captain to be potentially considered as the same "role". I'm actually fine with red staying as it currently is and yellow minstrel stances being raised to an acceptable, non-stacking variant of motivating speech. Blue/Yellow needs to lose the auras and passive support though.

Out of curiosity, what exactly do you contribute to the class in this forum? The only thing I've seen so far is you stating that captain needs to be nerfed in every single way, from tanking to buffing. What's next, you stating that our DPS is too strong? Our herald needs to be nerfed?

[BinaryTertiary]

Out of curiosity, what exactly do you contribute to the class in this forum? The only thing I've seen so far is you stating that captain needs to be nerfed in every single way, from tanking to buffing. What's next, you stating that our DPS is too strong? Our herald needs to be nerfed?

contributed more than you did with 60k parses

[Zaheer]

contributed more than you did with 60k parses

Yes, that's the number that has been given to me by leonmon the wise. Could you care enough to explain to me how dps numbers are relevant to forum contribution?

[Joedangod]

Out of curiosity, what exactly do you contribute to the class in this forum? The only thing I've seen so far is you stating that captain needs to be nerfed in every single way, from tanking to buffing. What's next, you stating that our DPS is too strong? Our herald needs to be nerfed?

Herald of Hope could possibly do with a mild nerf but honestly probably better to just adjust it so that Guardian fortification gives 3% and is non-stacking with the herald. Captain DPS is fine, it's not competitive in a DPS role but it also doesn't have a DPS focused traitline so there's no reason it should be doing more damage than the respectable amount that it currently pulls whilst it offers its unparalleled group support. Blue and Yellow absolutely need their passive support dialled back as right now those two traitlines offer significantly more support than any other traitline that competes in the same role. Both traitlines are also exceptionally powerful, sure Blue doesn't see much use in raids but that's simply because it lacks ST or Burst healing, the sustained aoe heal output of that spec makes every other healer blush.

Blue Captain doesn't need buffs, it needs its power redistributed with the number of AoE HoT's being reduced and in return some on demand ST or AoE burst heals being implemented. Yellow Captain primarily needs nerfs as it simply matches or exceeds every other tank in every tank related category barring aggro, I would absolutely love to see the aggro side being brought up as the auras get removed and raidwide CD abilities get toned down (in yellow) but under no circumstances should it be receiving a buff in that area whilst it still overperforms in every other aspect.

The above is pretty reasonable but I'm sure you'll ignore that simply because you refuse to entertain the idea of the words "Nerf" and "Captain" ever being in the same sentence. We get it, you don't want other specs competing with Captain for anything.

[Zaheer]

Herald of Hope could possibly do with a mild nerf but honestly probably better to just adjust it so that Guardian fortification gives 3% and is non-stacking with the herald. Captain DPS is fine, it's not competitive in a DPS role but it also doesn't have a DPS focused traitline so there's no reason it should be doing more damage than the respectable amount that it currently pulls whilst it offers its unparalleled group support. Blue and Yellow absolutely need their passive support dialled back as right now those two traitlines offer significantly more support than any other traitline that competes in the same role. Both traitlines are also exceptionally powerful, sure Blue doesn't see much use in raids but that's simply because it lacks ST or Burst healing, the sustained aoe heal output of that spec makes every other healer blush.

Blue Captain doesn't need buffs, it needs its power redistributed with the number of AoE HoT's being reduced and in return some on demand ST or AoE burst heals being implemented. Yellow Captain primarily needs nerfs as it simply matches or exceeds every other tank in every tank related category barring aggro, I would absolutely love to see the aggro side being brought up as the auras get removed and raidwide CD abilities get toned down (in yellow) but under no circumstances should it be receiving a buff in that area whilst it still overperforms in every other aspect.

The above is pretty reasonable but I'm sure you'll ignore that simply because you refuse to entertain the idea of the words "Nerf" and "Captain" ever being in the same sentence. We get it, you don't want other specs competing with Captain for anything.

may I ask you a serious question? I warn you, you might actually not like it.

[BinaryTertiary]

may I ask you a serious question? I warn you, you might actually not like it.

yes he can parse more than 60k on a captain if thats the question

[Zaheer]

yes he can parse more than 60k on a captain if thats the question

Sadly you failed to answer my previous question, specially for you I'll repeat it

Yes, that's the number that has been given to me by leonmon the wise. Could you care enough to explain to me how dps numbers are relevant to forum contribution?

but judging from your line of posts on the forums past days, my expectations are low

[mrfigglesworth]

it sucked when obs spam was nerfed but it was a good change to stop the situation where one skill ruins content. They are continuing to bring down value of individual binary skills (you win with and lose without) like the lm lores and captain tanking op bull####(1min last stand, sotd). On a side note.....why change sotd to only be used on others?? Regardless, removing / nerfing binary skills are good things for endgame, as now content can be more likely built for all tanks, dps, and support.

On the other end, content devs going to have less excuses to put out decent content.....