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  1. #1
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    How powerful was Numenor at its height?

    Here is a quote from Tolkien:

    “Empty and silent were all the lands about when the King of the Sea marched upon Middle-earth. For seven days he journeyed with banner and trumpet, and he came to a hill, and he went up, and he set there his pavilion and his throne; and he sat him down in the midst of the land, and the tents of his host were ranged all about him, blue, golden, and white, as a field of tall flowers. Then he sent forth heralds, and he commanded Sauron to come before him and swear to him fealty. And Sauron came. Even from his mighty tower of Barad-dûr he came and made no offer of battle. For he perceived that the power and majesty of the Kings of the Sea surpassed all rumor of them, so that he could not trust even the greatest of his servants to withstand them …”.

    At this time Sauron was in possession of the One Ring and yet decided to give up without a fight against a host of Númenoreans lead by their king Al Pharazon. Not even trusting the greatest of his servants. What mighty creatures Sauron had at his services during the Second Age surely would have been on par to dragons and Balrogs. Yet Sauron could not trust even they to stand up to the Numenoreans. How powerful is that and Sauron has the Ring? Wow!!!

    And then we have this after Sauron was captured and brought to Númenor: “… Sauron passed over the sea and looked upon the land of Númenor, and on the city of Armenelos in the days of its glory, and he was astounded …” Sauron was astonished by what he saw? The key lieutenant of Melkor who had seen and ravaged many spender cities of the Noldor astonished at what he saw in Númenor?

    Oh my gosh! What an amazing race the Númenoreans must have been at this time! In my opinion they must have been the greatest race of all peoples ever to live on Arda. I would love to see this, so I hope this fact does not get ignored by Amazon if they do end up showing Númenor before they go on that ill fated and Sauron influenced siege of Valinor. Which even it had to be a feat for Manwe chose not to directly fight them but instead petitioned Eru Iluvatar to intervene which He did and not only destroying the entire mighty fleet but sinking Númenor and changing all the world for ever after in the process.
    Last edited by welden; Jan 18 2022 at 07:40 PM.
    Welden of Elendilmir

  2. #2
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    The Numenorians at the height of their power basically were Arda's Super Power.

    Something to keep in mind was that the greatest of Sauron's Servants were the Nazgul, with the one who would later become the Witch-King the strongest pretty much whatever forces we see Sauron using in the Third Age is what Sauron had in the Second Age. There were no Balrogs or Dragons helping/serving Sauron. But all of Sauron's other Servants abandoned him when Numenor sent their Forces to help the Elves. There was even a monument well into the Third Age marking the very spot where Sauron surrendered himself and was later destroyed when that area was seized by Servants of the Enemy.

    Sauron was a very mighty Maiar and had his main might in the One Ring which at this time he still had all his Natural Strength.

    But as seen later after he loses his form and ability to shape-shift, Sauron was not invincible against numbers. It only took 1 to cut the One Ring from his fingers during the Last Alliance of Elves & Men.

    Sauron took more the strategic & tactical decision that with no armies to stand by his side, a numerically and technologically superior Enemy that would be able to wage war on multiple fronts to be taken prisoner. Which was the best choice and nearly caused what was the greatest enemy Sauron had to be fully wiped out beyond Numenorian holdings in Middle-Earth.



    And we'll see about the Amazon LOTR TV Series.

    It's hard to say where they are starting, what elements of the Second Age they'll be telling and how long it'll take them to tell such.

    The Second Age lasted 3,441 years and there are big time gaps between key events.

    For example: Sauron begins building Barad-Dur in Second Age 1,000 and it's only completed in Second Age 1,600 in the same year the One Ring is made. An example of the One Ring, the first Great Rings were made in Second Age 1,500, the Three Elven Rings in Second Age 1590 and then the One Ring in Second Age 1,600. It wouldn't be until Second Age 1,693 when Sauron attacks starting the War of Elves and Sauron and another 4 years before Eregion was destroyed and Celebrimbor died.

    So how they'll deal with time gaps will be interesting.

  3. #3
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    Corey Olsen, the Tolkien Professor, has on a couple (or more) occasions said that he thinks (speculates?) that the Numenoreans had cannon and other gunpowder technology, which is why Sauron surrendered to them and allowed himself to be taken hostage by Ar-Pharazôn.
    .

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harvain View Post
    It only took 1 to cut the One Ring from his fingers during the Last Alliance of Elves & Men.
    Good analysis in general but that didn't happen. Yes, one dude cut the ring from Sauron's hand. But that was after Sauron was defeated by Gil-galad and Elendil, Isildur basically chopped it off Sauron's corpse. The scene in the Jackson movies where Isildur cut off a bunch of Sauron's fingers while Sauron was flailing around with his big mace destroying the entire FREEP army is not the way it happened in the books and was one of the more silly changes Jackson introduced to the legendarium. That and dwarf-tossing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Altair6 View Post
    Corey Olsen, the Tolkien Professor, has on a couple (or more) occasions said that he thinks (speculates?) that the Numenoreans had cannon and other gunpowder technology, which is why Sauron surrendered to them and allowed himself to be taken hostage by Ar-Pharazôn.
    Numenoreans must have had better tech than everyone else. They certainly had better architecture and engineering. I wouldn't want to see cannons and other gunpowder weapons in my Middle-Earth fantasy stories but that does make sense. I do wonder why technology – even technology based on "magic" rather than real-world physical principles but even just basic arms and armor and clothing and transport – started at a certain level pretty much from the first iron sword forged by Elves in the dark and never advanced a single iota even thousands of years later.
    Last edited by Tralfazz; Jan 18 2022 at 09:13 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tralfazz View Post
    Good analysis in general but that didn't happen. Yes, one dude cut the ring from Sauron's hand. But that was after Sauron was defeated by Gil-galad and Elendil, Isildur basically chopped it off Sauron's corpse. The scene in the Jackson movies where Isildur cut off a bunch of Sauron's fingers while Sauron was flailing around with his big mace destroying the entire FREEP army is not the way it happened in the books and was one of the more silly changes Jackson introduced to the legendarium. That and dwarf-tossing.

    Numenoreans must have had better tech than everyone else. They certainly had better architecture and engineering. I wouldn't want to see cannons and other gunpowder weapons in my Middle-Earth fantasy stories but that does make sense. I do wonder why technology – even technology based on "magic" rather than real-world physical principles but even just basic arms and armor and clothing and transport – started at a certain level pretty much from the first iron sword forged by Elves in the dark and never advanced a single iota even thousands of years later.
    Well it was still cut from his hand, granted in the form of Sauron's body was cast down and Isildur cut the One Ring from it and then Sauron's spirit fled after dueling with Gil-Galad & Elendil, receiving mortal wounds but burning Gil-Galad and killing Elendil.

    Which shows that even with Sauron being a Maiar and arguably the single most power being on Middle-Earth at the time that his power was not akin to Melkor who was even greater.

    Hopefully we get to see such and the Amazon LOTR TV Series showing off the 3 most powerful beings on Middle-Earth at this time. Sauron, Gil-Galad and Elendil.

  6. #6
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    I was not saying Sauron actually had Dragons or Balrogs but the likes of them. Tolkien never mentions in detail what Sauron's greatest servants were at that time? Nazgul yes! We know he had them but what else? Whatever they were they must have been formable and totally devoted to serving their master. But when Sauron witnessed the full might of Numenor he knew he and his vast armies regardless of what they were comprised of stood no chance.

    I am also not sure if Sauron at the time initially knew he could corrupt the Numenoreans but that thought obviously came to him at some point while in captivity to them. I just find it interesting that even in captivity the Numenoreans allowed Sauron to keep his Ring. They obviously did not fear it or fear he could hurt them in any way with it.

    It is a sad tale though that Sauron was able to corrupt the Numenoreans into worshipping Morgoth instead of the Valar which they had remained completely devoted to for over three thousand years. Not sure why Tolkien wanted to take them into that direction? Especially considering their long-time unwavering devotion to the Valar and the immense amount of trust the Valar must have put in them? Very interesting that Tolkien would have them corrupted so easily in such a short time. Kind of makes me wonder what the state of mind Tolkien was in at that time he determined this?

    Anyway, it seems Tolkien must have questioned this choice because he hinted it through a cryptic comment made by Galadriel in saying her goodbye to Treebeard that Numenor (not specifically mentioned but it is one of the lands that lie under the sea) may one day rise again from the deep. “Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Nan-Tathren we may meet in the spring. Farewell!”.

    There is some inspiration for a different outcome for the Numoreans in the Bible and we know Tolkien was a devote Christian. I refer to the King of Salem or Melchizedek. The Bible unfortunately tells little about him. What little we know of him comes mostly from some commentary in the New Testament. We are told that Abraham honored him by paying tithes to him and that he and his city had no rivals for their inhabitants were terrible to fight against in battle. What ultimately happened to Melchizedek and his city we are never told but in the Apocrapha it is hinted that God took them into Heaven.

    This is what I wished Tolkien had done with Numenor, not allowing Sauron to corrupt them and its inhabitants taking them somewhere outside of Arda leaving only a remnant behind (Elendil, Isildur and Anarion) to continue their line and kingship in Middle-Earth. But alas this was not to be...
    Welden of Elendilmir

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by welden View Post
    I was not saying Sauron actually had Dragons or Balrogs but the likes of them. Tolkien never mentions in detail what Sauron's greatest servants were at that time? Nazgul yes! We know he had them but what else? Whatever they were they must have been formable and totally devoted to serving their master. But when Sauron witnessed the full might of Numenor he knew he and his vast armies regardless of what they were comprised of stood no chance.

    I am also not sure if Sauron at the time initially knew he could corrupt the Numenoreans but that thought obviously came to him at some point while in captivity to them. I just find it interesting that even in captivity the Numenoreans allowed Sauron to keep his Ring. They obviously did not fear it or fear he could hurt them in any way with it.

    It is a sad tale though that Sauron was able to corrupt the Numenoreans into worshipping Morgoth instead of the Valar which they had remained completely devoted to for over three thousand years. Not sure why Tolkien wanted to take them into that direction? Especially considering their long-time unwavering devotion to the Valar and the immense amount of trust the Valar must have put in them? Very interesting that Tolkien would have them corrupted so easily in such a short time. Kind of makes me wonder what the state of mind Tolkien was in at that time he determined this?
    By the time Sauron was captured, most of the Numenoreans had already gone pretty far down the path of corruption. They no longer traveled to Middle-Earth to help, but to conquer and plunder. Their last king, Ar-Pharazon the Golden was not the rightful ruler, but an usurper. They had started to greatly fear death, and was very envious of the seemingly immortal elves. They were no longer devoted to the Valar, and those few who were still loyal to the Valar and friends to the Elves were persecuted.
    This process had already been slowly going on for several centuries before Sauron was captured.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tralfazz View Post
    Numenoreans must have had better tech than everyone else. They certainly had better architecture and engineering. I wouldn't want to see cannons and other gunpowder weapons in my Middle-Earth fantasy stories but that does make sense. I do wonder why technology – even technology based on "magic" rather than real-world physical principles but even just basic arms and armor and clothing and transport – started at a certain level pretty much from the first iron sword forged by Elves in the dark and never advanced a single iota even thousands of years later.
    It's a stylistic thing: if you want to evoke warfare in a heroic age then you don't include guns because they're the antithesis of that. You want to emphasise personal skill, strength and courage. Tolkien didn't care for technology - he didn't like what the Industrial Revolution and modern times had done to the English countryside and way of life, and when he fought in the First World War he'd have seen all the horrors of modern warfare and he considered that evil (can't say that I blame him). So in Middle-earth technology doesn't progress in a realistic way, so as to preserve the feel of a timeless ancient world, and most particularly there are no guns. Both Sauron and Saruman use explosives in warfare (black powder, we might assume, as Gandalf makes fireworks) but that's because they're the bad guys, and so it's natural for them to use 'evil' technological weapons.

    If the Numenoreans had ever had guns then Sauron would have known all about it (as a former Maia of Aule he was technically gifted) and so be able to reproduce them later, and we should have seen cannon brought up against Minas Tirith, not just fancy catapults, incendiaries, bombs and some sort of 'liquid fire'. So it's more like they'd have had all the nasty toys you could have short of guns and war-rockets.

 

 

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