Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[Harvain]

Yeah I was thinking Bree-land tends to be..... levels 14 - 20 - starting with the Sharkey business on the Greenway and going up to Thornley's Worksite and then down to Adso's Camp, and the Buckland stuff......... Ered Luin and the Shire tend to get you to level 14 thereabouts or so.

It would then make it important, I think, for them to next give an alternative to the Lone-Lands (level 20-30) - given that Trollshaws and Evendim and ND already give some variance for the level 30 - 40 range, and of course, Angmar and Forochel and Misties actually made it quite difficult to get from level 40-45. Mostly, I'd be like using accelerators to get level 43-44 out of Evendim but barely squeezing it to then go to Eregion for slightly over-leveled quests to make up the difference.

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/zones_by_level

The Lone Lands and North Downs both cover Level 20 to Level 35.

So the "alternative" is already there and I'm in the camp of if we don't see all of the Eriador Quest Pack Content aka Epic Quest Volume I given to every Account here in 2022 or 2023, we should at the very least in 2022 have the North Downs be given to every Account.



And folks have given a lot of Feedback that the Eriador area of LOTRO has a lot of Low Level Content especially once we have the Angle here this week with Update 32.

"Filler Region" which I personally am not too keen on Filler Regions as it's akin to Filler in Shows, Anime, etc. It has no true value in the long term, usually only has a small amount of what is happening for it that will be remembered and overall is just a way for the Creator(s) of such to keep something going longer & make more Money before moving to the Main stuff that really bring their Audience.

While the 2 "Filler Regions" we will have serve 1 Main Purpose: Alternatives to Leveling, they both are offering such in 2 different styles and what they offered while being in an area of LOTRO which is Content Heavy in that Level Range. Wildwood offering Missions, Instances that were directly tied into Group Content & Gearing Process but no direct connection to the Main Game & Story being told. The Angle won't offer Missions and offer nothing else of value to the Main Game & Story being told. Sure both have a Story that slots into the World but aren't building toward anything.

Which at least to myself while it's good there are more Alternatives, I think they should be done in a way where they are building from what occurred before them & after them while having a Unique Reason(s) for existing. Don't let such places just being in the Landscape of what used to be something else or filling in a spot where the Main Journey didn't touch on just be a way to expand the Landscape.

Make every bit of New Content in the form of Quest Packs, Mini-Expansions and Expansion serve a connected purpose for furthering this version of Middle-Earth.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

There are hints that point to this new area going by the name of Yondershire.

Ooh yes, I’d forgotten about this thread. That makes a lot of sense now… to think we were all speculating about how it might connect to the Angle!

Yondershire seems a bit of a strange name, but I suppose it makes sense, given the new zone seems to include both parts of the Northfarthing and the Westfarthing (and potentially not yet the Far Downs), so Yondershire it is!

There was also a very interesting post on that thread, suggesting that this zone would come out around the LOTRO 15th anniversary in April - I think that seems a pretty good bet!

[Phantion]

Also thinking about the new Hobbit villages that this would add: from what I can see on various maps, the villages of Gamwich, Nobottle and Tighfield seem to be found in this north-western area, as well as potentially Long Cleeve and Hardbottle more directly north of Bindbole Wood.

There is also, according to the maps I've seen (not sure of the veracity of them!) an area called the North Moors, just south of Annuminas - I wonder if that will feature!

EDIT: Some maps place Hardbottle in the south, although the wikis that I have seen say it is the north (and is the place that Lobelia, who was a Bracegirdle before being a Sackville-Baggins) came from.

Map added below, with potential locations: Tf: Tighfield, Gw: Gamwich, Hb: Hardbottle, LC: Long Cleeve, No: Nobottle. Nm: North Moors (although didn't see where they might fit, based on the current LOTRO map), with GH in the south being Grey Havens.

I think your second map here is closer to the mark. I did notice on terrainmap a road going directly west and then northwest of Little Delving, which looks primed to be another connector to the area. But we don't know what the southern extent will look like.

Both of your red circles are in the right ballpark for the northernmost extent of the zone.

To what Valather89 said, I'll say I will neither confirm nor deny per what I've discovered.

To Harvain-

Thank you, yes, that's right- I think then my issue was more with ND's quest-flow. But you're right that there are alternative routes. I guess I'd just like to see............ more alternatives in that range as both ND and Lone-Lands are very Mannish regions. I think South Farthing would be a good candidate there for Hobbits, for example, and I'd even say Northern Ered Luin or even Forlindon would be good directions to expand that range for Dwarves / Stout-Axes, Elves, and High Elves.

And yes yes, there's Orthikar and Meluinen- they gave us something in ND, I know that

I think my message here is: Greater options are grander!

The game's been pretty good if your goal is to follow the Epic. But if you're more into the RPG aspect and want to do the kinds of quests that you'd more imagine your player-character doing, it's been trouble: For the life of me, it will always feel very wrong for my High Elf to run around with apple crates for Butterbur in Bree, LOL My Hobbits and Big Folk fit more in that locale

The Eglain......... yeah, a High Elf showing up at the Forsaken Inn like the Mandalorian or stranger out of town in an old western, ummmmm.............. hilarious if you don't take it seriously

Cheers!

[Valather89]

It would feel a bit weird for this new connecting area to not be designed for low level players (around level 15), since, swift travel aside, elves and dwarves would have to traverse this zone to get to the Shire and Bree-land, where the main plot starts. It would be strange for poor travellers to suddenly find level 40 goblins near the road so soon in their adventures . Maybe with an early 2000s game design, but not in 2022.

As for a substitute for Lone-Lands, the natural progression would be a zone to the south of Bree-land (South Downs?) but it all depends on whether they're saving some southern Eriador areas for very high level content, like a hypothetical Scouring of the Shire expansion, or they're okay with leaving a few of them for players under level 50.

[auximenes]

It would feel a bit weird for this new connecting area to not be designed for low level players (around level 15), since, swift travel aside, elves and dwarves would have to traverse this zone to get to the Shire and Bree-land, where the main plot starts. It would be strange for poor travellers to suddenly find level 40 goblins near the road so soon in their adventures . Maybe with an early 2000s game design, but not in 2022.

They have in the past tucked a few locations which harbored a cluster of enemies that were higher level that the overall zone, the ruined stone buildings to the NW of Weathertop in the Lonelands for example. Perhaps the connecting area here could be higher than starter level but have lower level enemies just along the road. This would allow reasonable movement for the new characters without limiting the rest of the zone.

[Fargasia]

It's so energizing seeing well-thought out proposals that make sense for the game - well done all of you!!

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

They have in the past tucked a few locations which harbored a cluster of enemies that were higher level that the overall zone, the ruined stone buildings to the NW of Weathertop in the Lonelands for example. Perhaps the connecting area here could be higher than starter level but have lower level enemies just along the road. This would allow reasonable movement for the new characters without limiting the rest of the zone.

True - although that can only stretch so far, as with the mobs at Ost Alagos (the one near Weathertop), your character is close enough in level to them to be able to run away if you hit the zone around 20ish (things might get a bit hairy, but you can survive if you move fast enough). In this case, if the zone was made into an end game one, you'd be one shotted with significant damage to spare!

[Phantion]

True - although that can only stretch so far, as with the mobs at Ost Alagos (the one near Weathertop), your character is close enough in level to them to be able to run away if you hit the zone around 20ish (things might get a bit hairy, but you can survive if you move fast enough). In this case, if the zone was made into an end game one, you'd be one shotted with significant damage to spare!

That, and as others have said, the quests in Ered Luin actually vector you toward Bree-land. I'd even say they should add vectors in Michel Delving and Duillond and Gondamon to send players to the new area since the old vectors to Bree-land basically assume that the Shire is under-level and that the portal between Ered Luin and the Shire exists.

Now, it'll be quite a long journey for a new player to get to Bree-land from Ered Luin, which is totally awesome for us who have been around and kicking for awhile, but it might be bewildering to the new player experience. They'd get the "Gondamon to Bree-Town" quest, cross into the new zone, and be like: "What's this?"

I'd also suggest that when they introduce a new area, MoL should greatly consider making a Volume 1 interlude for each new chunk of landscape. It would be a cool way to keep things on-track for the Epic while also showing players the unique roles that would be played in them.

For example, there could be vectors from Halbarad following Book 3 and from Aragorn in Rivendell to go assist the Dunedain and Elves in the Angle or something along those lines The interlude would be an optional quest-line, of course, and you could jump to do Book 4 if you wanted to do so.

But it would be a neat tie-in to get the Angle as part of the wider arc of Volume I and make those direct connections.

Similarly, I could see an interlude between the Prologue and Book 1 of the first region, maybe themed as "A Funny Thing That Happened on the Way to Bree-Land," sort to speak, and perhaps it would involve chasing Skorgrim's forces out of Ered Luin, experienced from both Shire and Ered Luin perspectives, or something along those lines.

The distance between the Prologues and Volume 1 Book 1 have always felt somewhat disconnected to me. If you are a Hobbit or a Human, you are wondering: "Woah! Whose that undead Dwarf in Ost Baranor, and how is he in league with the Nazgul?" If you are an Elf or a Dwarf, you're wondering the same about the Angmar dude Eogan, and you're wondering about Amdir and whose that?

So, the new area between the Shire and Ered Luin would be a neat opportunity for them to start to tie those plots together. For example, perhaps Eogan runs off to join Skorgrim's forces first on the way to Ost Baranor, and perhaps some might talk about the coordinated assault on Archet and what they did to a certain ranger, and so on. Something to help tie the respective Prologues closer together before landing their fusion in Bree-land, basically. It would be a neat move for them to consider, especially since they are concerned about enhancing new player experiences.

I think if you're a new player, you need to know where you're going and why you're going there, I think, and so you could follow along. I'd also say that kind of Interlude should also include some "follow the road" quests rather than 1 vector.

A Volume 1 quest I really appreciated (*I forget the book number / chapter number) was the one where you are chasing Angmar's forces across Eriador from Evendim to Tal Bruinen in the Trollshaws. It had you actually go to specific hill-tops and "see" the enemies you are chasing in the distance or learn of their whereabouts.

So I think that also would be a good "guide-rail" questing method for new players; the Interlude would not only connect the Elf, Dwarf / Stout-Axe, and Hobbit Prologues to Book 1 (*Men and Beornings could also be vectored out there via Aragorn getting word of trouble sent from Saeradan or Langlas), it could also direct the new player to specific locations in the Shire as well along the way. For example, it could send you to Gaffer Gamgee, who could start talking about the Black Riders, and to Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, who could blurt about Frodo moving to Crickhollow, and to Farmer Maggot, who would keep the Hobbits' secret and tell you those Black Riders stormed Brandywine Bridge, and off you go to Bree-land.

Anyways: my mind's on a roll. I'm very excited for what they're up to in Eriador I also think it's a pretty good idea for them to give themselves some time to work-out what the next "End-Game Epic" storyline will be.

---

I also very much agree on the need to fill-in that Far Northern Mirkwood area and complete the Forest River. When you ride around the circle, starting at the Elf-Gate, through Beorning-lands, up through Floodfells, Misthollow, up through Elderslade and Ered Mithrin, down through Dale-lands, and back across through Eryn Lasgalen, you realize that there's this HUGE chunk of terrain that's missing, including some impressive areas atop Felegoth and that whole crescent-shaped block of terrain directly west of Dale.

They do have a problem in that there's that one Forest Maze instance you get from northwest Eryn Lasgalen: the one that sends you to slay the Taurogrim Chieftain. There's also that Queen Spider instance from Thranduil that takes place north of the largest spider area.

I'd say, for those, the solution would be to just put the instances in completely separate spaces and use the game-world versions to happen after those instances, such as looking for clues in the Spider Queen's den (*maybe the Ungoledain would be searching too), and so on. It would be neat to have a zone that connects directly to Misthollow, Floodfells, Eryn Lasgalen, Dale-lands, and Ered Mithrim especially in the Oinsbridge area.

They could even have a frozen Mirkwood area involving the Frost-Horde per the fact that those northern stretches are portrayed as frozen on the World Map. Ah, I'm enthusiastic! I'm just very excited they are in that "fill-out-the-world" mode. Here's hoping Emyn Muil will be on that list as well!

I also agree with you that there --- should --- be a pass climbing down into western Evendim from the new area. I'd really love if they'd do that!

Cheers!

[Harvain]

True - although that can only stretch so far, as with the mobs at Ost Alagos (the one near Weathertop), your character is close enough in level to them to be able to run away if you hit the zone around 20ish (things might get a bit hairy, but you can survive if you move fast enough). In this case, if the zone was made into an end game one, you'd be one shotted with significant damage to spare!

One thing that can be considered is how they would do for example: The Grey Havens.

I think we already have the way such will be done: The Minas Tirith Wedding Version for the Wedding of King Elessar and Arwen Undómiel and how the Quests are based on Character Level.

Really there wouldn't be any reasons for fighting near the Grey Havens and thinking about the Tower Hills, it likely would be the same as the nearby power of the Elves ensures a safe region which also could use this same formula of the Quests being based on Character Level.

Stuff closer to the Shire "could" have some stuff involved but I guess that would be more about how such would be dealt with. The Far Downs most notable thing about them is when they are added to the Shire by King Elessar and what would become the Westmarch with it's only known town of Undertowers. Which it's only 10 Years after this is given to the Shire when many Hobbits migrate to it.

So we're several decades away (In-Game Decades from Third Age 3019) from the area between the Tower Hills and the Shire's current Western Border being a very prominent location.



Edit: And for the Grey Havens being like the Wedding of King Elessar & Arwen. It would ensure all Accounts with Characters at Level 20 & higher could participate.

As it wouldn't be so much as LOTRO ending as heralding LOTRO has reached the End of the Third Age & start of the Fourth Age.

The Grey Havens will have to be built to include everyone.

[Phantion]

One thing that can be considered is how they would do for example: The Grey Havens.

I think we already have the way such will be done: The Minas Tirith Wedding Version for the Wedding of King Elessar and Arwen Undómiel and how the Quests are based on Character Level.

Really there wouldn't be any reasons for fighting near the Grey Havens and thinking about the Tower Hills, it likely would be the same as the nearby power of the Elves ensures a safe region which also could use this same formula of the Quests being based on Character Level.

Stuff closer to the Shire "could" have some stuff involved but I guess that would be more about how such would be dealt with. The Far Downs most notable thing about them is when they are added to the Shire by King Elessar and what would become the Westmarch with it's only known town of Undertowers. Which it's only 10 Years after this is given to the Shire when many Hobbits migrate to it.

So we're several decades away (In-Game Decades from Third Age 3019) from the area between the Tower Hills and the Shire's current Western Border being a very prominent location.



Edit: And for the Grey Havens being like the Wedding of King Elessar & Arwen. It would ensure all Accounts with Characters at Level 20 & higher could participate.

As it wouldn't be so much as LOTRO ending as heralding LOTRO has reached the End of the Third Age & start of the Fourth Age.

The Grey Havens will have to be built to include everyone.

Well, they don't have to tie it to the Fourth Age stuff with Hobbits settling it. With LOTRO's main timeline, I'd much rather have the High Elven version where Gildor Inglorion and company are settled (*before wandering around Eriador where they meet Frodo before heading up to Meluinen in ND), the Tower with the Palantir that only looks to the West, and so on. It's much cooler than an extended Michel Delving in my view. The new area should cover the Hobbity aspects well enough, I'm thinking.

As for the Grey Havens, and I know I've said this before: I think it would be far better to have Tales of Yore versions of the Havens and Forlindon and Harlindon. It would mean, of course, having them on a coordinate map separate from Celondim, etc., but I think it would be worth it. A built-up, settled Lindon dealing with the War of the Elves and Sauron in the SA would be far more interesting, I think, than a late TA version, where really the only noteworthy thing that happens is Frodo sailing West (*I agree with you that, ideally, everyone would be included with that level-wise). But I'd love it for them to actually tackle the real, substantive content of those areas, all of which happens in the distant past, and High Elven characters could even be "remembering" what they actually experienced as that would technically be before the High Elf Intro chronology-wise.

They could also "cover" important events like the coming of Glorfindel and the coming of the Istari, which would be neat instances, and Cirdan giving Narya to Gandalf. I'd much rather have that stuff in-game to really soak-in and enjoy those regions as opposed to their really bittersweet, tragic Third Age counterparts with Lindon mostly in ruins, save for Mithlond, and Frodo's final voyage...

I think it really would enhance things to give players access to those regions; SA Lindon and SA Eregion, I maintain, would be awesome additions to this game.

For TA, I think Tower Hills / Far Downs would be appropriate regions for lower-levels to further help fill-in the gaps between those zones

Cheers!

[itshuntah31]

How many rivers were in the region? Is it possible that this will be a new starter region for the long awaited River Hobbits?

[Harvain]

Well, they don't have to tie it to the Fourth Age stuff with Hobbits settling it. With LOTRO's main timeline, I'd much rather have the High Elven version where Gildor Inglorion and company are settled (*before wandering around Eriador where they meet Frodo before heading up to Meluinen in ND), the Tower with the Palantir that only looks to the West, and so on. It's much cooler than an extended Michel Delving in my view. The new area should cover the Hobbity aspects well enough, I'm thinking.

As for the Grey Havens, and I know I've said this before: I think it would be far better to have Tales of Yore versions of the Havens and Forlindon and Harlindon. It would mean, of course, having them on a coordinate map separate from Celondim, etc., but I think it would be worth it. A built-up, settled Lindon dealing with the War of the Elves and Sauron in the SA would be far more interesting, I think, than a late TA version, where really the only noteworthy thing that happens is Frodo sailing West (*I agree with you that, ideally, everyone would be included with that level-wise). But I'd love it for them to actually tackle the real, substantive content of those areas, all of which happens in the distant past, and High Elven characters could even be "remembering" what they actually experienced as that would technically be before the High Elf Intro chronology-wise.

They could also "cover" important events like the coming of Glorfindel and the coming of the Istari, which would be neat instances, and Cirdan giving Narya to Gandalf. I'd much rather have that stuff in-game to really soak-in and enjoy those regions as opposed to their really bittersweet, tragic Third Age counterparts with Lindon mostly in ruins, save for Mithlond, and Frodo's final voyage...

I think it really would enhance things to give players access to those regions; SA Lindon and SA Eregion, I maintain, would be awesome additions to this game.

For TA, I think Tower Hills / Far Downs would be appropriate regions for lower-levels to further help fill-in the gaps between those zones

Cheers!

Yeah.

What I personally would like to see?

A Grey Havens Expansion which culminated with the Final Events that would be added say 1 month to 3 Months & should be 3 Months so it's the "Main Focus" after said Expansion went Live being seeing the Ship that takes Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, many other Elves and the Hobbits Bilbo & Frodo Baggins into the West. A cutscene built exactly to what Tolkien described of how that occurs. Which basically could be say Epic Quest Volume (Number here) Book (Number here) being a single Book which is the "Based on Character Level" and allows everyone Level 20 & higher to play such since the Epic Quest is Free.

The Grey Havens Expansion itself could be a "How we got here" and cover all the Events that occurred involving the Grey Havens and allowing for a lot of Content involving: Fighting that happens during the Second Age & Third Age, Glorfindel arriving, the Istari arriving, Gandalf receiving one of the Three Elven Rings: Narya, the Ring of Fire to help rekindle the Hearts & Hopes of all, etc.

Which the Second & Third Age Versions for X Content they would cover could be built in the Mordor Besieged & Azanulbizar method.

SSG could easily have this be a huge Expansion. Personally it should be THE biggest Expansion if we got to such a point it could be added.

Let the Third Age's ending, those Sailing West and the Fourth Age starting all happen with a bang.

It's still a ways off but the SSG LOTRO Team has everything available to them to ensure that it's a huge Event.

[auximenes]

True - although that can only stretch so far, as with the mobs at Ost Alagos (the one near Weathertop), your character is close enough in level to them to be able to run away if you hit the zone around 20ish (things might get a bit hairy, but you can survive if you move fast enough). In this case, if the zone was made into an end game one, you'd be one shotted with significant damage to spare!

I wasn't thinking end-game, perhaps something no more than 50. That was the Angmar cap and seems reasonable since you could run all the way up to find level 50 enemies at launch if you so desired.

That, and as others have said, the quests in Ered Luin actually vector you toward Bree-land. I'd even say they should add vectors in Michel Delving and Duillond and Gondamon to send players to the new area since the old vectors to Bree-land basically assume that the Shire is under-level and that the portal between Ered Luin and the Shire exists.
...
I'd also say that kind of Interlude should also include some "follow the road" quests rather than 1 vector.

Yeah, I think a vector to put you on the road formerly where the port door between Ered Luin and The Shire is necessary. Then put a sequence of a few 'quests' which keep the player on the road heading east towards The Shire, maybe something involving sneaking or otherwise eluding being spotted by enemies? This would be especially relevant if the area overall was significantly higher than level 20. Maybe even include an NPC escort that would help introduce that mechanic to a new player, including a 'summoning whistle' type item so the player can get the 'quest' back on track easily if they goof it up. This NPC could be higher in level than the expected PC level, the same level as the zone so that if the player does stray too far off the road they have a chance at surviving the encounter.

[Phantion]

Yeah.

What I personally would like to see?

A Grey Havens Expansion which culminated with the Final Events that would be added say 1 month to 3 Months & should be 3 Months so it's the "Main Focus" after said Expansion went Live being seeing the Ship that takes Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, many other Elves and the Hobbits Bilbo & Frodo Baggins into the West. A cutscene built exactly to what Tolkien described of how that occurs. Which basically could be say Epic Quest Volume (Number here) Book (Number here) being a single Book which is the "Based on Character Level" and allows everyone Level 20 & higher to play such since the Epic Quest is Free.

The Grey Havens Expansion itself could be a "How we got here" and cover all the Events that occurred involving the Grey Havens and allowing for a lot of Content involving: Fighting that happens during the Second Age & Third Age, Glorfindel arriving, the Istari arriving, Gandalf receiving one of the Three Elven Rings: Narya, the Ring of Fire to help rekindle the Hearts & Hopes of all, etc.

Which the Second & Third Age Versions for X Content they would cover could be built in the Mordor Besieged & Azanulbizar method.

SSG could easily have this be a huge Expansion. Personally it should be THE biggest Expansion if we got to such a point it could be added.

Let the Third Age's ending, those Sailing West and the Fourth Age starting all happen with a bang.

It's still a ways off but the SSG LOTRO Team has everything available to them to ensure that it's a huge Event.

Oh ideally yes- and in the best of all possible worlds, I agree with you! The trouble is that SSG, in past language across the years, has hinted that the "Grey Havens" would be a "light's out" event. They said something to the effect of, "We hope that will be far, far ahead in the future and hope that day won't come anytime soon," more or less.

So, what's the point of having a huge expansion if, say, it came within the final two weeks or month of the game's existence or something?

I guess I'd just really love to have.............. High Elven Gondor or Rohan or Gundabad. Their Shire. That's Lindon. Their realm in-game for however long the game lasts- and hopefully enough time to enjoy it and soak it in! I feel like every other group has their "main ancestral place" except for those; I mean, if you compare the relative size of settled Elven areas in-game- meaning, Falathlorn, Rivendell, Lothlorien, Felegoth, Meluinen, etc., and put them all together, you'd barely have half of East Rohan in comparison. SA Eregion and SA Lindon would significantly level the playing field when it comes to having different groups' main necks of the woods in-game, while keeping with the lore on Elves diminishing, etc.

Hobbits also got comparably less development, and I'm glad to see they are finally moving to expand at least some of the Farthings of the Shire into new areas; they deserve it too!

I understand why, per Scenario's live-stream, they initially made the Shire smaller out of concern for making new players less bewildered. In retrospect, I wish they hadn't: it just feels far too small compared to the rest of the game-world now. I wish they'd re-design the coordinates and help flesh out some more spaces within the Shire itself. You're not supposed to be able to see the Old Forest from a hill right next to Bywater. It makes the Hobbits' journey feel too truncated, and honestly, as a then-new-player, I was disappointed by how small the Shire turned-out to be. BUT- making new Hobbit areas bigger is another good way to compensate for that

*I'd also point out that 2 years pass between Frodo's return to the Shire and his final voyage in-story-time. We've seen how long they've stretched TA 3019!

Anyways, I'll take it either way- though I'd prefer the path of the greater longevity of playing-through and enjoying the content versus not enough time, basically


Cheers!

[Harvain]

The trouble is that SSG, in past language across the years, has hinted that the "Grey Havens" would be a "light's out" event. They said something to the effect of, "We hope that will be far, far ahead in the future and hope that day won't come anytime soon," more or less.

So, what's the point of having a huge expansion if, say, it came within the final two weeks or month of the game's existence or something?

*I'd also point out that 2 years pass between Frodo's return to the Shire and his final voyage in-story-time. We've seen how long they've stretched TA 3019!

Yeah, SSG doesn't seem like they are in a "Grey Havens" is it and where LOTRO basically is aimed to wrap up anymore, personally I think that was more Early SSG being unsure if they could build a Post-One Ring & Sauron Defeat LOTRO.

Overall especially with 2020 & 2021 the SSG LOTRO Team seemed like they were going to try and keep the return to the Shire, the Final Events of the Scouring of the Shire, the Battle of Bywater, Saruman's Death, the End of the War of the Ring and basically Third Age 3019 pretty much being wrapped up from arriving as long as possible.

Which pending any Content in April with the 15th Anniversary, it's taken 15 Years + Pre-Launch Development Time to get from roughly Pre-Frodo leaving Bag End to the Wedding of King Elessar & Arwen which is over 10 Months & might be over 11 Months.

So LOTRO really hasn't covered a year for the Main Events yet



Which would be a key thing about how things are going: The Grey Havens is unlikely to happen in my personal opinion before 2024.

It's really going to come down to if we reach the Post-Shire Events LOTRO eventually has to have in the game and how they deal with Third Age 3020 and then 9 Months of Third Age 3021 before the Third Age wraps up.

I do think LOTRO will eventually see larger time skips but at the same time I don't know if SSG would be rushing to get to the Fourth Age for the nearly Blank Canvas for building Content or not.

All indicators are the SSG LOTRO Team aren't in a hurry to move the Story along and they did state they have 15 Years worth of Ideas for LOTRO back in 2021.

With the SSG LOTRO Team really only moving LOTRO's Story forward Pre-Update 32 only about just over 4 months or roughly 130-ish Days for LOTRO's in-game Period of Time that Events take place since they took over back in Late 2016.

[Phantion]

Yeah, SSG doesn't seem like they are in a "Grey Havens" is it and where LOTRO basically is aimed to wrap up anymore, personally I think that was more Early SSG being unsure if they could build a Post-One Ring & Sauron Defeat LOTRO.

Overall especially with 2020 & 2021 the SSG LOTRO Team seemed like they were going to try and keep the return to the Shire, the Final Events of the Scouring of the Shire, the Battle of Bywater, Saruman's Death, the End of the War of the Ring and basically Third Age 3019 pretty much being wrapped up from arriving as long as possible.

Which pending any Content in April with the 15th Anniversary, it's taken 15 Years + Pre-Launch Development Time to get from roughly Pre-Frodo leaving Bag End to the Wedding of King Elessar & Arwen which is over 10 Months & might be over 11 Months.

So LOTRO really hasn't covered a year for the Main Events yet



Which would be a key thing about how things are going: The Grey Havens is unlikely to happen in my personal opinion before 2024.

It's really going to come down to if we reach the Post-Shire Events LOTRO eventually has to have in the game and how they deal with Third Age 3020 and then 9 Months of Third Age 3021 before the Third Age wraps up.

I do think LOTRO will eventually see larger time skips but at the same time I don't know if SSG would be rushing to get to the Fourth Age for the nearly Blank Canvas for building Content or not.

All indicators are the SSG LOTRO Team aren't in a hurry to move the Story along and they did state they have 15 Years worth of Ideas for LOTRO back in 2021.

With the SSG LOTRO Team really only moving LOTRO's Story forward Pre-Update 32 only about just over 4 months or roughly 130-ish Days for LOTRO's in-game Period of Time that Events take place since they took over back in Late 2016.

Right- I agree, and I truly hope you're right on this

So another "compromise" approach they could, in theory take, bringing us back to the OP on filling-in the gaps, would actually be to fill-in everything else --- but --- for the Grey Havens if they wanted to expand Eriador further before the Main Story events wrap-up. So, maybe, for example, ascending the Tower Hills but just from the eastern flanks. Maybe filling-in the gap between Ered Luin, Evendim, and Forochel is a possibility, and then Northern Ered Luin (*including Winter-Home) as a way to get over to Forlindon without touching the Grey Havens. They could do something similar rounding southwest of the Shire into Harlindon / Southern Ered Luin.

The river that's near Zigilgund that comes from the wyrm area with the hot-springs? That's the Lhun - a tiny piece of it in Forochel. So there's a lot to fill-in there too.

Actually, the nice part about that approach is that it would allow for the game-builders to establish the game-scale scope of the Gulf of Lhun first before giving it the final "crown" sort to speak at the mouth of the river.

Those would be my thoughts on world-building alternatives - and I truly hope you're right about them being less jittery about the Havens entering game After all, most of that is actually leagues upon leagues away from the Havens, and so I'd say it doesn't all need to be intrinsically tied to the Grey Havens' existence or lack thereof

The only other caveat is that Galadriel, Elrond, and company are supposed to be the last High Elves sailing West. High Elves are an in-game "race." So, that's a bit tangled, although I noticed how Gandalf's quest-text at the end of the Midsummer Wedding hinted at how they might try to compensate for that, (maybe ret-conning Elrond and Galadriel as "the last of the Truly Great High Elves" or something- that would bend the lore, but the alternatives aren't many; they've cornered themselves on this, *laughs*).

Cheers!

[Harvain]

The only other caveat is that Galadriel, Elrond, and company are supposed to be the last High Elves sailing West. High Elves are an in-game "race." So, that's a bit tangled, although I noticed how Gandalf's quest-text at the end of the Midsummer Wedding hinted at how they might try to compensate for that, (maybe ret-conning Elrond and Galadriel as "the last of the Truly Great High Elves" or something- that would bend the lore, but the alternatives aren't many; they've cornered themselves on this, *laughs*).

Celeborn & Cirdan depart Middle-Earth sometime in the Fourth Age aboard the Last Ship with Cirdan specifically leaving as no other Elves at that point showed an interest that they would ever leave.

When Celeborn & Cirdan depart, this is the last of the High Elves to depart.

So High Elves being in Middle-Earth through arguably past King Elessar's Passing in Fourth Age 120 will be a thing.

As with King Elessar's passing the last true part of Numenor also passed away and what had made up the Greatest Line of Men had peaked & bloomed once more during King Elessar's Reign so the small Golden Age of Middle-Earth where some hints of all the previous Ages were likely seen began to fade as well.

[Phantion]

Celeborn & Cirdan depart Middle-Earth sometime in the Fourth Age aboard the Last Ship with Cirdan specifically leaving as no other Elves at that point showed an interest that they would ever leave.

When Celeborn & Cirdan depart, this is the last of the High Elves to depart.

So High Elves being in Middle-Earth through arguably past King Elessar's Passing in Fourth Age 120 will be a thing.

As with King Elessar's passing the last true part of Numenor also passed away and what had made up the Greatest Line of Men had peaked & bloomed once more during King Elessar's Reign so the small Golden Age of Middle-Earth where some hints of all the previous Ages were likely seen began to fade as well.

That's true. I think I must have had Noldor on the brain. It's true that the in-game version widens the definition to encompass Sindar and other groups a bit more; having heritage based on a geography rather than specific groups (Noldor, Sindar, etc.) probably helps make things a bit more nebulous there in the game context.

Cheers!

[YamydeAragon]

The area between Forochel and Evendim was, in my head canon, is a region I wanted to suggest as ‘the Kingdom of the Gauredain’, although it was quite a big space, so I didn’t end up proposing it. However, if we are getting the gap between Evendim, Ered Luin and the Shire, that’s potentially quite a big space too (although I imagine the Grey Havens/Tower Hills won’t be included).

The Kingdom of Guaredain will be a good name for that faction & i was also thinking something along the lines. I don't expect all those suggested expanded zones to be released all at once neither. It is more viable to make several smaller updates & i know some are already on the way, while others the construction haven't being started yet. Also if the devs choose to follow the books/lore order, some areas that haven't being started yet, are more likely to be released 1st. By the way i suspect that the gap between Evendim, Ered Luin and the Shire is already installed in live servers, but surrounded by invisible walls, from what i saw at Ered Luin frontier. It is prety much the same that the devs did with Wildwood for a while.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

By the way i suspect that the gap between Evendim, Ered Luin and the Shire is already installed in live servers, but surrounded by invisible walls, from what i saw at Ered Luin frontier. It is prety much the same that the devs did with Wildwood for a while.

I had a little look on live, but couldn't see anything that stood out - the skyline perhaps looked a little different when viewed from Duillond, but I wasn't sure whether I just didn't know it that well! As for the Shire side, I couldn't see any changes (although admittedly, it was at night).

[Phantion]

I had a little look on live, but couldn't see anything that stood out - the skyline perhaps looked a little different when viewed from Duillond, but I wasn't sure whether I just didn't know it that well! As for the Shire side, I couldn't see any changes (although admittedly, it was at night).

I have a feeling we'll see the changes when U32 actually launches. I've noticed differences between Live and BR in the past BR build for those regions.

Cheers!

[YamydeAragon]

I had a little look on live, but couldn't see anything that stood out - the skyline perhaps looked a little different when viewed from Duillond, but I wasn't sure whether I just didn't know it that well! As for the Shire side, I couldn't see any changes (although admittedly, it was at night).

The hills that are close to Duillond will not let use see it but if you go northern, to the spiders area that is near the river you will notice that a lot of new terrain have being added across the river & it is all surrounded by invisible walls. There are some towers atop a hill there since several years but the area was very small & you couldn't even get close. Now you can walk to right beside them, the ruins look bigger & also the surrounding terrain that includes a little marsh & some woodlands. There seems to be more terrain in the distance but some little hills to the east block the view. I will have to check out if there was some obvious changes that can be seeing from north of the Shire, i haven't check it.

[Halphast]

One thing that can be considered is how they would do for example: The Grey Havens.
...
Edit: And for the Grey Havens being like the Wedding of King Elessar & Arwen. It would ensure all Accounts with Characters at Level 20 & higher could participate.
The Grey Havens will have to be built to include everyone.

I'd find it really strange to be a first time player and have access to the Grey Havens. It's weird enough with anyone being able to go to the Wedding, honestly seems like it all should be locked behind completing at least the wastes so the Ring has been destroyed.

Might be cool if they instanced it, though. Make a landscape-grey-havens that's what you encounter when you wander the map- set during the war of the ring, and an instanced one for the departure and end of the 3rd Age. Ugh, still feels like the game's over to include that, if you ask me. But that's been discussed before.

[Valather89]

I've been swimming for a short while along the Mitheithel river and I confirm that the Angle, while awesome and haunting, did little in order to "fill" any gap. It created more! Now I want to see even all the (placeholder) forests and hills across the river (south of Harloeg). The invisible walls hurt, haha. Same with the space that separates the Angle from Eregion. I know they aren't likely to come anytime soon, but I just had to say it.

[Natkin]

While I was attempting the "Lucky Sling-Stone" quest near Bindbole Wood/Bolestones in the Shire earlier today, I was poking around the edge of the map desperately (I could not find the deer-carcass that's supposed to be in the bear dens there, I think it's bugged, I've done the quest before), and at the north edge of the Bolestones, I kept getting the message that I was entering "Yondershire." I couldn't go very far into the zone- I could basically just see a continuation of forested hillside that went downward from where I was, and a lake (?) with a willow tree beside it, but it was interesting, I figured it must be an intended future zone. (I got stuck at the bottom of the hill by the way, and had to /unstuck, so I wouldn't recommend going down it.)