Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[Scenario]

Because you're working on boats and sea travel, right? *nudge* *nudge*

Changes were made to how shadows interact with water, and with how the "sea foam" layer (also the marsh weeds in Cardoswan and slime in Carn Dum) render. Nothing to do with boats/ships, sorry!

[auximenes]

Changes were made to how shadows interact with water, and with how the "sea foam" layer (also the marsh weeds in Cardoswan and slime in Carn Dum) render. Nothing to do with boats/ships, sorry!

(I tried)

Thanks for the info.

[Phantion]

Changes were made to how shadows interact with water, and with how the "sea foam" layer (also the marsh weeds in Cardoswan and slime in Carn Dum) render. Nothing to do with boats/ships, sorry!

I see. To be clear, the things I'm describing are coming down the line in U35 as visible only during the Bullroarer beta builds currently. Say . . . a thought occurred to me.

I completely forgot we could only access 1/2 of Pelargil back in the day. The space feels so continuous now, after all. Only it seems this river didn't get the memo:

This is TesalionLortus's image from the Gondor thread that shows the "original pigmentation" of Gondor's waters.

I wonder . . . is it possible to perhaps combine the two water styles, for Gondor? To kind of give the waters a crystal-blue hue but also give them the same level of reflectivity as the river water that's coming for U35? It could keep Gondor's waters feeling more unique while also making them look far better than the more stagnant look we see here. A "middle" approach?

I don't like the idea of basically turning the Sea into a giant Nen Hithoel; it just doesn't feel right . . . for the same reason Lake Evendim's waters have their magic, Gondor's waters need their own magic.

Cheers!

[k40rne]

LOL That was my reaction just now too. Maybe they're working on how the water surface reacts to a moving boat

Seems to be the only reason you'd need to universalise the water. Hopefully we can still have a variety of colours though, too.

[Phantion]

Ye. And . . . https://www.cntraveler.com/gallery/m...-in-the-world?

The webpage I've linked to showcases lakes, rivers, and parts of the ocean IRL that do not share the "mirror, clear waters" that, while they work very well in Cardolan, Swanfleet, and Rohan, do not necessarily work so well in Gondor. The real world's waters have a diversity of hues and appearances, largely from minerals gathered along riverbeds, lake-beds, and coastlines. If anything, it makes the current Live Server Gondor waters more realistic than U35 as of Bullroarer build 4.

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

Cool pictures! If the devs want to look at some more waters, I've also made this series of real life water video posts, comparing with LOTRO recordings: https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...72#post8169272

The classic "clear mirror" water works in more places than just the ones you named (I believe works very nice in Mirkwood or Elderslade). Though the mirror *may* be a fault occasionally and maybe I wouldn't mind less mirror-ish Nen Hithoel with a special hue and maybe some more waves. Still... that reverted water change from before really did not work and neither would unique Gondor hue of the Anduin if one just dropped it onto Nen Hithoel... Btw, I had this documented with the recording footage of After and Before the change from back then, so let it serve as a visual reference/warning If one wishes to witness the "blue water invasion" again But I would certainly love to see more "hues" of waters for new places, like Phantion mentioned, assuming it's done correctly and it makes sense, so especially in these more "exotic" spaces (and, naturally, it shouldn't do away with previous waters that work).

PS: There are many unique waters in the game with unique hue/waves that sometimes go unnoticed. I recently rediscovered this nice spot in Enedwaith (or Dunland? don't remember now) - https://i.ibb.co/6RzRLLC/fff.png

[Arnand_the_Fox]

So some interesting bits from the new livestream
https://www.reddit.com/r/lotro/comme..._carn_dum_and/

KING'S GONDOR

Before Elessar tours the realm, you are tasked with searching out any lingering threats.

Areas included in U36:

• Lossarnach
• Upper Lebennin
• Lower Lebennin, ending at Linhir

U38 will include the remainder, alongside a new area called Outer Gondor (in addition to Umbar)

King's Gondor builds out each of the regions -- there's more landscape than there was in the original zones. They don't want the landscapes to just be the same thing you explored at level 100, but with a different skybox.

TBD on whether these landscape expansions will be added to wartime Gondor.

Last but not least, a tease for U38 will be in the game via a visible (but not accessible) White Mountain dwarf fortress!

From the way its described it seems like we'll be getting some White Mountains stuff along with Umbar.

*edit* watching the stream itself, the Dwarves seem to come from the vales north of Erynos. There is now a road leading north of Erynos into the vales where the Dwarves are from.

[TesalionLortus]

As usual, any work that they do is awesome, and it's great design and premise overall. I can't say that I hate these devs because I love them. But some of what I've seen in the stream is... like eh? Really? That's where the main focus lied?




Let me explain:


1. Rocks, new rocks everywhere. Gondor was relatively new space, had rocks in line with all newer spaces, including something like Vales of Anduin. When was the last time any of us heard anyone complaining about rocks in Gondor? I didn't, not once. But I heard many people complain about Gondor overall, about some different old choices made there, never once about rocks though. Not just limited to the latest thread here but also to what I've been reading on reddit, for example, whenever people mention Gondor.

But here, at least so far, the main focus was given to rocks and cliffs... Cliffside rocks, which are very specific look, and almost make Cardolan 2.0 out of Gondor mountains, but no such rocks in old Gondor yet... - just maybe TBD and since they took such care to shove those new type of rocks everywhere, meaning it might interfere with old content, NPCs and burry some objects... maybe it'll be the exact thing that disqualifies the process of bringing over these changes back to earlier Gondor landscape because that's just too much work. How does that make any sense? Why overcomplicate things when not needed? These new rocks in particular already made me afraid they won't be able to do the export, it's like a 50/50 chance or less. They've literally sabotaged themselves, seemingly, because they're playing a designer's sandbox (a parallel to modder's sandbox comes to mind...) but not thinking carefully about these choices.



2. So they've done new rocks. Consideration was given to rocks. Because they like new Swanfleet assets. What else was given consideration? Some terrain and platform technicalities, so they can put more dirt on floors. Did I see any of the Gondorian towers at least slightly tweaked? Or anything else reconsidered? From all these things I personally think could be just a little bit tweaked - or all these things I've heard so many other people mention and point out about Gondor? Not really. Nothing else was touched so far. (No wonder MoL was being so defensive under that other thread. LOL. Granted, it's still a work in progress and maybe more can be done fingers crossed, but it's already a little underwhelming because clear as day that what was given priority here, almost on a whim (because Swanfleet rocks = cool now, so we gotta have Swanfleet rocks, no matter they weren't there previously) and what wasn't (addressing any of the actual visual issues, slight flaws ever pointed out by players).



3. They're expanding the space and expanding some valleys, plus Belfalas in the future, which is one thing that they did address - kind of. Kind of because they're doing it... with dwarves, seemingly. Which is okay, since there are White Mountains dwarves, but I thought they were not in these parts? That that was purely Gondor, so close to MT, not dwarves next door? Well, either way, that they have some dwarves or entry to their halls - okay - but this seems to be mean "yeah, we expand the terrain and have dwarves in there" (again!) rather than "yeah, we expand the terrain rectifying some of these old faults and making it look like Gondor is actually much more to it than just this small piece of land between the coast and old valley" Which is... like totally missing the point??? This makes me question what they even wanna do in Belfalas, for example. My hope was they could include some more Gondor in it, actual settlements, functional. Civilization. Not just monster camps amongst old ruins and caves. Same hope I had was for these valleys. Even a small preview, with some settlements visible, but not accessible would have been enough for me, tbh. But instead I have dwarves So I can't say it's nearly as fulfilling. It's slightly better. Slightly. But doesn't rectify the actual feeling of Gondor being so compressed if it's just dwarves. Well, at least so far



4. Seems like a trivial issue now, but still, I'm gonna mention it - not just Harlond but entire outer wall now is immediately under repair IMMEDIETELY in the aftermath of the battle, visible from Pelennor After Battle? Really? (Because I doubt it's phased...). That's a giant middle finger for immersion here, making a visible change like that, given that there are still players running through the old content for the first time and even as a returning player I would say there is actually more immersion if I could see ruined walls and such after the battle, from atop MT, not some perfect renovation going on, right from the first minute. Couldn't they restrain themselves with Harlond? And outer walls? Why not? Sure they could have. Plus, by having this restoration stuff going on right there next to MT you're just creating another Thorlney Worksite situation, even though it would have been perfectly reasonable that even 2-3 months after major battle and strain on resources like that (plus troops occupied in Mordor) Gondor is no shape, so not much resources to perfectly rebuild everything straight away, even with some dwarven help (that comes a little bit too late for my liking.... if they live so close..... rather than further, closer to Anfalas.....)







Now, all of these, from general ideas to level of detail or concepts (like the idea of Gondor rebuilding) are all good and nice, on paper. But in practice the priority should be: some consistency and co-ordinational sense of care, not just treating the old landscape space like irrelevant trash not worth careful attention and consideration once you got this new copied-over "sandbox" to play with. Bringing changes over to older landscape shouldn't be "well maybe, if it's feasible, TBD" - because from the very start they should have planned their design/polish efforts in a way that would make sure it's not just "maybe, TBD" but actually more likely because possible to be done more easily (no roadblocks and self-sabotage). Also, this should be part of the timetable somewhat, and "Swanfleet-like rockification" of the old spaces and cities taken off the timetable - if it stands in the way.

Less things done on a whim, more organization to make this world shine and interconnect in matching ways please? Hey, but seeing this done like this makes me question things... maybe... bringing Azanulbizar changes to Lothlorien wasn't done out of love and some priority that giving justice to the old space is the right thing to do, to make things look in-line... Maybe... it was just "ah, ok, we have some time yet, so I'll do it!" but not really prioritized in any way. But they do prioritize visual things like some dirt on floors or having designer's fun with Swanfleet rocks (which I already expressed concern that they're VERY SPECIFIC feel of a rock so I hoped we won't be seeing them like everywhere now... and... here we go! right off a bat, in a place that did not have such rocks previously no less!)







Now, I know it turned out a bit grumpy, but that's what we're here for sometimes, to express our constructive concern. Because some of the red flags are starting to appear again in my eyes, in areas I had never previously thought it was possible, like world design, which I love wholeheartedly in this game. I wish the devs actually took that to heart and stopped playing at "sandbox" at every opportunity, which it seems they're doing, somewhat more intensified recently (and hopefully MoL doesn't appear under this post with some random "but playing at sandbox is all we've always done!" referring to their "Tolkien sandbox storytelling", which would be like disregarding the entire nuance here and comparing two completely different things).






PLUS...

A few words about the Return to Carn Dum, Scenario pretty much admitted that's how Carn Dum cluster materialized as well - specifically his pet project, a designer's sandbox if you will, at conception... to play around with the idea of "what if" and to test things out, how much of a city show offs they can be today - and then literally everything else from story to how the space will be used started to resolve all around... that pet project... rather than his pet project based on story ideas at conception and more in-line with the world itself. Now, I know Wildwood was also someone's pet project, and that was somewhat cool, but it's different in a way, since it's not harmful, doesn't really change anything, doesn't make such intensive work that's actually gonna be locked out in its own bubble. Sure, some people like the new CD and hate on the old one, okay, okay, and don't even care about existing inconsistency. Doesn't change the fact my point is valid though, because there are going to be legions of confused people or people constantly asking why they couldn't make this a part of open landscape. So now it's just there, in a bubble, with some important present day storyline attached, and maybe some missions/new innis to be added at later date (and forcefully justified narratively? so again working a bit backwards here?) since it's much more space than was actually needed for that content in the first place, since you know, quite an impressive, show-off kind of pet project. So, in theory, the amount of space/work that went into this that's actually needed to cover such a cluster - and deal with whatever the story here is - would have sufficed to create something smaller scale (but still impressive, with present-day informed design) attached to actual OG space and maybe even give the OG space some more polish, at the very least outside of instances.

Well, but what's done is done. I'm still thinking of how to best experience that space. I've been entertaining the idea of reading these quests on the wiki while standing in the old CD spaces, but that's a bit problematic to be sure and will make me miss Bill's music sooo ehhhh. Btw, the interior recreation of main keep is surprisingly on point though and like something that could easily replace ( I think) the OG one, without actually changing the impression. Sadly, it's a raid. So... a bit gatekept, as far as exploration and peace of mind goes, but we shall see. Well, Scenario did say this space was like his favorite and most nostalgic... but that gives off the wrong vibe though. It sounds a bit like Scenario could be fine with annihilating and utterly redesigning both in concept and look things he personally has no attachment too, but will only give justice (as in in-line with how those spaces actually look and feel like, out there in the world) to the ones he personally has attachment to. Not saying he is a bad designer and I would have been better, faaaar from it, but let's say, theoretically, if I was one - and happened to have a dislike for lava floors in throne rooms because it doesn't feel like a real space, a dislike newly informed or otherwise - doesn't mean I would have utterly gotten rid of the lava floor or put it into some secured sewer under the layers of floor, because I would wish to stay both faithful to what was already established and mindful of attachments of others, no cherry picking or playing favorites, at least to the best of my ability and restrain/such mindfulness are certainly skills to be practiced too. Idk. Would feel like the right thing to do for me






Anyway, that's how I feel. But maybe that's what is needed more here, the devs are amazing but maybe less sandboxy behavior and more such restraint/better prioritizing is what's lacking here? And it's not just me being whiney, it's something that can be noticed and kinda off putting, and what simply doesn't happen in some games, especially if such games pride themselves on stories and worldbuilding, and we all love this version of MIddle-earth and want to see it given justice. I will take the grand feeling of interconnectedness and world consistency over some dirt floor textures. Remember the Past Us didn't plan for some of these things regarding region maps and placement of things, and the Present Us are more mindful of that now? Well, it does feel a bit like we've got a successor, in a way - the Present Us have gone on a rampage in trying to outdo the Past Us in every single seemingly small detail but not mindful enough of the value of the Past Us to the players (and how the Past Us, like it or not, is all part of this beloved world you created).

PS: Anyway, there is still time and things yet to be built... let's make both Gondors great again!

[Arnand_the_Fox]

3. They're expanding the space and expanding some valleys, plus Belfalas in the future, which is one thing that they did address - kind of. Kind of because they're doing it... with dwarves, seemingly. Which is okay, since there are White Mountains dwarves, but I thought they were not in these parts? That that was purely Gondor, so close to MT, not dwarves next door? Well, either way, that they have some dwarves or entry to their halls - okay - but this seems to be mean "yeah, we expand the terrain and have dwarves in there" (again!) rather than "yeah, we expand the terrain rectifying some of these old faults and making it look like Gondor is actually much more to it than just this small piece of land between the coast and old valley" Which is... like totally missing the point??? This makes me question what they even wanna do in Belfalas, for example. My hope was they could include some more Gondor in it, actual settlements, functional. Civilization. Not just monster camps amongst old ruins and caves. Same hope I had was for these valleys. Even a small preview, with some settlements visible, but not accessible would have been enough for me, tbh. But instead I have dwarves So I can't say it's nearly as fulfilling. It's slightly better. Slightly. But doesn't rectify the actual feeling of Gondor being so compressed if it's just dwarves. Well, at least so far

I don't understand this complaint at all. Just looking at a map of Gondor shows places that are inhabited, or were inhabited until just as the Corsairs/Orcs struck, all over the place... like every five feet.

Every single white circle on this pic below is a fortress, city, town, village, or farming cluster, that is, or until just recently was, inhabited in Gondor(at least by Gondorians I skipped the tribal guys in the forest) How many more settlements did it need when it's already the most settlement packed area in the game by miles.

[Valather89]

I for one checked the livestream and I think those rocks really suit my personal vision for Gondor (literally land of stone). I like them.

At the end, it's all a matter of opinion.

I'm also glad they're expanding the landscape and opening up some of the narrow spaces. Someone literally asked Scenario about "revamping" the inaccessible mountains on top of the cape of Belfalas (which I brought to this thread on its very first page) and, while it's not coming with the next update, his answer seemed pretty favorable. That made me quite happy and I hope they don't change their mind, lol. That "new" valley with some dwarves helping with the rebuilding, the quarry and the dwarf fortress looks pretty awesome!

Now my main question is what do they mean by "Outer Gondor". Some people argue it's a catch-all term for Anfalas and Pinnath Gelin, and it may well be. I recall some dev (could be Scenario, or MoL, can't remember) saying months ago that he thought of that region as "Far Gondor". "Outer Gondor" could easily be just the final name they've went with for that part of Gondor. However, perhaps "Outer Gondor" is referring to something else, specifically what I've seen named as "Southguard" around here and on the announced lands map by Varghedin: the space directly south of Minas Tirith, up until the Poros river, before we're in Harondor proper. After all, if the plot is heading towards Umbar, I don't really see why we would need Anfalas for that.

Edit: but since we're also here to make some criticism, can't say I'm a fan of new versions of zones being geographically different from their older versions, and how it breaks the contiguity of the world, so to speak. I've given up on Carn Dum, but I really hope the terrain in old Gondor gets updated. Also, while I love their work, I do agree that it sometimes feels like LOTRO's development is lacking long-term planning and direction, and it's instead too driven by pet projects.

[TesalionLortus]

I don't understand this complaint at all. Just looking at a map of Gondor shows places that are inhabited, or were inhabited until just as the Corsairs/Orcs struck, all over the place... like every five feet.

Every single white circle on this pic below is a fortress, city, town, village, or farming cluster, that is, or until just recently was, inhabited in Gondor(at least by Gondorians I skipped the tribal guys in the forest) How many more settlements did it need when it's already the most settlement packed area in the game by miles.

Well, wasn't just my complaint, but the fact of how "lived-in" it is as a kingdom (compare with something like Rohan, which actually feels like a large open space kingdom). Sure, may be packed a lot in incredibly small place, but the complaint was that they compressed that part of Gondor so much that it just feels wrong and that there is just a tiny bit of "alive" territory visible between a valley and the coast. In reality, that space would have been enormous (of actual Gondor lived-in space, not dwarves) and the areas of Central/Eastern Gondor in particular didn't convey that well enough.

Anyway, that was the least of my worries. At least we got the dwarves and... maybe they still have something in store for lived in expansive kingdom for these other spaces they're expanding in the other valleys maybe

[Skohgar]

I agree that the Dwarves of the White mountains should be more western in Anfalas or Andrast so I hope this is just a small-ish satellite fort that is isolated from the rest of them due to the Paths of the Dead.
Maybe they need to traverse the actual mountains from above to reach the others if they ever were to do a white mountain region.

Mountains the could be turned down are the Belfalas Cape-West Ringlo range where some of the Ringlo and much of the Belfalas could be cut/Flattened which could lead to some more space and a slim foot hill passage through the two regions.
Also the central and a some of the western spur of mountain in Central Gondor as well which could be also turned into an accessible foothill landscape which is what I think you may be doing. This could also give reverse access to the larger Ringlo lake

I like the new rocks especially the cliffs but I also agree that they shouldn't be over used in every area of the game and stick to river side cliffs.
They should be used to just texture some of the cliffs and riversides in Gondor and leave the rest the same.
And if you were to just do that they wouldn't massively impact the playable space meaning it could be retro fitted to the older zones.
There could be problems here and there but they would be ironed out as people or a dev went through the space.

In regards to the building and wings I would say keep most of them the same unless any a particularly egregious. The only change I would make would be adding more details to some of the courtyards and building sides.

Also It would be nice if you could do a pass on every settlement as many mainly the war-torn ones are a mixture of the cracked/damaged brick and the smooth brick e.g. Lornost.

If they want to do anything with the Homesteads other than making it a NPC version of the current one I guess they would go with it being plundered by Corsairs that were left over with maybe some villagers hiding in that mountain area above.

The rebuilding of the wall is fine it could maybe be phased in after a certain level or quest like with the Mordor gate but it's out of the way enough so that it isn't a massive issue.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Now my main question is what do they mean by "Outer Gondor". Some people argue it's a catch-all term for Anfalas and Pinnath Gelin, and it may well be. I recall some dev (could be Scenario, or MoL, can't remember) saying months ago that he thought of that region as "Far Gondor". "Outer Gondor" could easily be just the final name they've went with for that part of Gondor. However, perhaps "Outer Gondor" is referring to something else, specifically what I've seen named as "Southguard" around here and on the announced lands map by Varghedin: the space directly south of Minas Tirith, up until the Poros river, before we're in Harondor proper. After all, if the plot is heading towards Umbar, I don't really see why we would need Anfalas for that.

Scenario said that the Umbar expansion would continue out and add the rest of Kings Gondor, going out to Belfalas, and Outer Gondor. His mention of Outer Gondor in that context would seem to be to indicate Anfalas.

While Harondor was part of Gondor in the past, Harondor wasn't really considered part of Gondor during this time since Gondor had basically given up all lands east/south of the Anduin some time ago. Harondor was largely controlled by the Haradrim before and during the War of the Ring. LOTR lore says Anfalas was harassed along the coast by the Corsairs of Umbar, and since this current story is headed to Umbar I think SSG would probably think it makes more sense connection wise. Rather than going to Harondor which has less connection to the Corsairs, and more connection to the Haradrim, which are two separate groups of people.

I could see the story going to Anfalas, then we sail to Umbar, deal with the Corsairs, and then the gap between Umbar and Gondor gets added after. We go back up north and deal with some political issue with the Haradrim, closing up that story in the process.

I agree that the Dwarves of the White mountains should be more western in Anfalas or Andrast so I hope this is just a small-ish satellite fort that is isolated from the rest of them due to the Paths of the Dead.
Maybe they need to traverse the actual mountains from above to reach the others if they ever were to do a white mountain region.

What Scenario showed was a signal dwarf fortress located high off in the vales. Not a sprawling mass of various dwarf settlements. Seems to be largely a one off fortress.

[TesalionLortus]

I like the new rocks especially the cliffs but I also agree that they shouldn't be over used in every area of the game and stick to river side cliffs.
They should be used to just texture some of the cliffs and riversides in Gondor and leave the rest the same.
And if you were to just do that they wouldn't massively impact the playable space meaning it could be retro fitted to the older zones.
There could be problems here and there but they would be ironed out as people or a dev went through the space.

Yeah, definitely. It's not like I hate new rocks, they're nice and have some amazing potential uses. But they're specific enough that it's just in a bad taste if they keep using them over and over again now. And yeah, literally no need to shove them into older places, including in middle of cities, that can be highly problematic to bring the changes over to older landscape. Just gentle touches in safe spaces and mostly new spaces, into those valleys, would have been enough

[miriadel]

no... not anymore dwarves.... please noooooooooo! NOOOOOOOO! *sobs in despair*

[Phantion]

Having seen the stream now, the changes are looking positive. Actually, I very much love the new rocks and find they belong perfectly in Gondor. I've visited the Alpilles in southern France / Provence, Mediterranean climate like Gondor, and they look just like that! In fact, some brilliant medieval strategies built a castle named Les Baux-de-Provence built right among the cliffs and box canyons - and it was never, ever conquered until the French Revolution did it in. No medieval ruler toppled it - and it has a prow IRL like the one in Minas Tirith, though a bit more irregular to fit the surrounding stone.

I think it all fits new Gondor very well.

And now, my pitch to Scenario on why they ought to consider integrating as many of the new changes in "old Gondor" as possible without running into old quest-pathing problems.

I'm gonna divide the updates into 3 categories:

A- New expansions of landscape not available in pre-battle Gondor.

B- Updates to terrain alongside extent landscape.

C- Updates that might interfere with older quest objects and pathing.

In reverse order:

"Category C" can probably be sacrificed the most. Extent pre-battle Gondor quests get the priority; no need to introduce new obstructions to them. Fortunately, these happen to be clustered by either "kill X mobs" out in an open field or otherwise confined to the forts, camps, and cities of pre-battle Central and Eastern Gondor. For those reasons, it should also be not as difficult to avoid running into problems with those - from what I can see so far.

"Categories B and A," I think, are paramount to get into pre-battle Gondor - though "B" will have more sensitivity to it than "A."

"Category B," for example, would include changes around places like Tumladen and Imloth Melui as well as Harlond - when it comes to new rocks in the landscape, for example. The one quest to watch-out for is that quest-giver on the current pre-battle mountain pass between Imloth Melui and Harlond that has the player's first glimpse of "Dawnless Day MT." So, that would obviously need a lot more sensitivity as far as translating changes go. But the idea of opening up those upper hills and paths just north of Harlond is a good idea so long as they don't interfere with those older quests. As with "Category C," the current quests get the priority.

Which leaves us with A.

"Category A" = it doesn't impact earlier quests. Changes in this category de facto do not. Why not? Because they don't exist in the pre-Gondor map. This means the lovely new Dwarf vale in the northern part of Central Gondor. This means expanding those vales north of the extent landscape. They don't need a ton of content in them.

Why, there's even a simple lore explanation. The leader of the White Mountain Dwarves decided to go all Durin the Third on Gondor and shut it's gates. And then wow! A diplomatic conflict to resolve between a Dwarf King and King Elessar! Now that's interesting - and I mean only in a "drama sense." There's some touchy diplomacy. Why didn't you intervene, Dwarf King? Oh, you were scared of the Oath-breakers? What was the reason? And so forth. Here: let's . . . make amends and help you rebuild your cities. Anyways . . . just basic landscape mobs, no new quest content - it could be done just as Nanduhirion was in light of "Blood of Azog."

And of course, we already know said Dwarf King might be in that kind of mindset. Why? Well . . . he didn't quite show up at Mt. Gundabad when Prince Durin called him, did he? Ah ha!

---

I know time's limited. I know resources are limited. But the best thing this Team does is keep the world consistent . . . to keep it making sense. I can understand re-imagining a smaller instance space. But re-imagining a whole part of extent landscape? I really feel that . . . Middle-earth deserves that magic of feeling like a world - and not with 2 entirely different versions of a whole region This isn't like saying: "Oh, let's have two Minas Tirith's" or "two Nan Curunir's." Those Minas Tirith's - all 3 of them - are consistent with each other, and that's the brilliance! The magic of it! It's the same city - and I can tell that, no matter whether it's been getting ready for war, or ruined, or rebuilt!!! Nan Curunir? Sure, the Ents flooded Isengard and took care of Saruman's pits. But it had the same reeds, the same road, the same stones, the same pillar - just cast down - and the same mountains. I could still tell I was in Nan Curunir - both before and after the flood.

I really hope the same will be the case for Gondor in the end And yeah, I'm fine with, "let's forget that rock formation because a quest happens there pre-battle." But hey! If there are all these new cliffs all of a sudden north of Harlond . . . they'd be there for thousands of years, tens of thousands - ever since the war of the Valar and Morgoth plopped them there, hahahaha And . . . to not encounter them in Gondor with the Dawnless Day overhead? I'm sorry: Sauron's sorcery is not - that - powerful! Hehehehe

So . . . show us the love of Middle-earth . . . no matter how long it takes, or how many updates. Please do consider translating as much as possible between the two Gondors So that . . . in the end . . . I can tell: I'm in Gondor - and I know exactly where I am in it, Dawnless Day or clear blue skies beneath a shining sun!

Cheers!

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

In the stream, Scenario says that this is being built up from post-battle Minas Tirith. Am I right in thinking this is the one from March of the King on the Mordor map? I’d kinda assumed that it would be built off the Midsummer map, given it fits the time frame better and Pelennor during March of the King has to be in a pretty unrepaired state, given it is the day after the battle (with Aragorn’s Pavilion in the middle of the plains).

From what Scenario said, I think we’re headed to Anfalas and Pinnath Gelin, rather than Harondor as part of ‘Outer Gondor’ (given they’ll be expanding further west anyway). This suggests the route to Umbar will, for the moment, be a sea one, rather than a land one. Not sure how I feel about that!

[Hierona]

In the stream, Scenario says that this is being built up from post-battle Minas Tirith. Am I right in thinking this is the one from March of the King on the Mordor map? I’d kinda assumed that it would be built off the Midsummer map, given it fits the time frame better and Pelennor during March of the King has to be in a pretty unrepaired state, given it is the day after the battle (with Aragorn’s Pavilion in the middle of the plains).

Was thinking that too, given the timeline. Post battle is in March of 3019 and the wedding is in July and we have and the cleansing on Mordor inbetween and the Battle of Three Peaks inbetween playing it of the Midsummer one would make sense a lot more. Let alone that players who are level 100 will not by accident stumble in a level 140 zone.

From what Scenario said, I think we’re headed to Anfalas and Pinnath Gelin, rather than Harondor as part of ‘Outer Gondor’ (given they’ll be expanding further west anyway). This suggests the route to Umbar will, for the moment, be a sea one, rather than a land one. Not sure how I feel about that!

Makes perfect sense tho. Rather have them do it by see and having time to focus on Umbar then do all the lands inbetween without having the time to paint in the details.

Could be cool tho if get different regions in Gondor. Would be great imo if the closed gate would be used to get into Far Anorien for example making it that a potential White Mountain zone would be possible. Also I hope we won't go in to Anfalas yet. Think Outer Gondor will be Harondor in the south and we will travel from Pela to Umbar, but that is just my speculation.

[Aleziana]

To keep the topic of the thread

It seems that south ithilien will remain a future and possible " filling the gap" region in post-war Gondor.

Edit :

Regarding Gondor. I would really like to know on how far will this re-imagined version will go.

We have so far see Central Gondor and part of South ithilien .

But what about Beacon hills in the north ?

We will also have Western Gondor re imagination? Western Gondor have already clear skies and haven't been hit by the enemies much.

So for re-imagined version of Gondor we have

Western Gondor (?)
Central Gondor (Check)
South ithilien (half check)
Anorien (check)
Far Gondor (?)

[miriadel]

by how Scenario worded it, i fear we're going to see very little landscape of actual harad, not even in the distance so no sand but more rocks... and that the bulk of it will still be Gondor and just the city of Umbar without terrain around it, not even Harondor. i hope to be mistaken tho.

[TesalionLortus]

I don't know how to feel about this, but since part of the nature of this game IS the inevitability of some *non-geographical* zone mismatches due to being set at different times (and nothing illustrates this more than Fords of Isen) = I think that sort of thing is perfectly OK and not something to stubbornly avoid now, as if it wasn't part of this game all of a sudden when it clearly is and will never be erased. They have even caused it themselves right now, with all these repairs. I can accept these repairs on the wall next to MT, though it does come a bit close for my liking and out there in the open visible from MT After Battle immediate after the battle. So it is a bit jarring whereas it didn't need to be. But okay, not as important. But that's exactly the reason why I don't understand it if the plan is to have... Western Gondor redone too and go to Anfalas from there?



Western Gondor has clear skies already - sure, some Corsair ships, but whatever, because that's no different than Rohan invaded by White Hand, Wildermore forever frozen or Elderslade occupied by orc forces even after the victory. So they could easily do the old classic:
Talk to NPC->"Now, we need to inspect things in Dol Amroth"->Be Ported to the current lvl 100 Dol Amroth, do the talking->Be ported or just be told to visit lvl 100 Morlad and some of these other settlements in relatively good shape untouched by war in Western Gondor->Be Ported to the bridge leading to Anfalas->Go to Anfalas, on the old Gondor map layer, 140 adjacent to 100, through a narrow pathway/bridge. Easy? No need to have two versions of the space. And not jarring for story. I think much easier and much less work. I don't feel like I need Western Gondor on new map, I would rather have them spend more time on polishing stuff in Gondor old and new (and bringing the changes over) rather than have alternate Western Gondor, which is a whole bag of extra work for very little.


Now, don't take me wrong - I do want them to do something with the Belfalas gap or perhaps even something more in the mountains beyond Calembel (though these have the lesser priority, since I'm sure, we can all agree upon - Western portions of Gondor actually do feel spacey enough between coast and mountains, and it's Eastern and Central that suffer). But these two things can be done without hassle, even if they don't redo Western Gondor - they have a perfect buffer with the Housing area and sure as hell I don't see any value (worth the time and effort and their priorities) in redoing the housing area too!

Also, for instance, if a new valley isn't outright open space from all sides but something accessed through a narrow pathway or two - in this case I would be fine if it's not brought over to pre-battle version for whatever reason (like roadblock, more difficulty, time constraint) assuming you at least bother to reflect a pathway leading up to it and connect the two spaces with portal connections. Now, that I have no problem with! So it's not like I'm being very demanding But please, consistency, and make the two spaces match/look mostly the same/have same rock cliffs/be continuous. And obviously, with the city example like Scenario showed, when they outright removed the mountain behind one of the cities and made it open space... now this a change that would surely need to be reflected on older map. Or did they just dynamited the space on the new one now? Surely such inconsistencies aren't a good look and feel for the world if you leave it like that...



They could easily do this:








Same story effect = much less work = more polish given to what they're doing right now and bringing the changes over where needed. And I do recommend a solution to the whole teleport confusion I talked about under this thread of suggested map connections (under Fix the terrible before/after teleport), because it would really solve the problem and come in handy in case a lvl 100 player takes a teleport - but they would still have a way to go back to prior coordinates via an immediete swift horse option rather than be stranded if that's not a two-ways teleport connection, so that's ok and viable, a safe way to set up connections then.

Then, everything would be connected, geography and rocks would match, you could travel continuously with clear skies, and Gondor would be enriched with these new lands, potentially all or some of them brought over to pre-battle Gondor in the parts that are easy enough - and connected via teleports from old map where they're not, or if they're cutting corners for time. Scenario mentioned their current work will end at Linhir I think and they still haven't touched much beyond it, so I really hope they pick the most optimal solution with this Western Gondor/Anfalas rather than pick the greatest amount of work for themselves where it isn't as crucial and leave as stranded with mismatching geography, no connections between things and overall unpolished Gondor (with unrectified old flaws).

I know time's limited. I know resources are limited. But the best thing this Team does is keep the world consistent . . . to keep it making sense. I can understand re-imagining a smaller instance space. But re-imagining a whole part of extent landscape? I really feel that . . . Middle-earth deserves that magic of feeling like a world - and not with 2 entirely different versions of a whole region This isn't like saying: "Oh, let's have two Minas Tirith's" or "two Nan Curunir's." Those Minas Tirith's - all 3 of them - are consistent with each other, and that's the brilliance! The magic of it! It's the same city - and I can tell that, no matter whether it's been getting ready for war, or ruined, or rebuilt!!! Nan Curunir? Sure, the Ents flooded Isengard and took care of Saruman's pits. But it had the same reeds, the same road, the same stones, the same pillar - just cast down - and the same mountains. I could still tell I was in Nan Curunir - both before and after the flood.

Utterly agree with everything you said in your post. A part of me wonders... why be so sloppy and do things in... reverse? As if they completely invalidated the idea of making things match from the start and thought that it's just some optional cool thing to maybe do in the spare time left, but nothing worth of consideration enough to make sure the world *will* be experienced like it's one world, no matter which point in the story it's set? Why not... do things in reverse???

Start by adding these rocks on Old Gondor map where possible and doesn't interfere with quests, objects, mechanics. (Temporarily turn off Dawnless Day, for better visibility). Give polish to old Gondor cities and such. Rectify some mistakes or flaws maybe. (There aren't any NPCs or quests hiding on roofs or walls, in these cities, or in decos, so it's all fine to apply some subtle changes, it should be fine I think). Sculpt the edges of old maps first, create entry points to new places on old maps first, so at the very least the borders are perfectly mirrored, whether the fully developed new spaces like the new valleys/Belfalas are brought over or not. Then, copy everything over to the Mordor map layer and start adding King's Gondor narrative/timeframe changes onto it, plus fully developing the geography of these new spaces like the valleys - if there is time they'll be fully brought over, if not, can be connected via teleports to have access to them from old map and still feel like it's continuous matching world. But sure as hell they wouldn't need to bother with bringing over problematic things back to old map because they wouldn't have created any uninformed problematic things to begin and all the essential geography would already be perfect match on two maps from the start. Why not in this order? I just don't get it. Wouldn't that be easier, more practical, more logical (assuming you care about some consistency), more time efficient and overall much more efficient to deliver much better outstanding matching results?






Well, regarding Umbar, I guess it doesn't bother me it's going to be like Strongholds of the North, as long as they figured out their distances and will respect proper proportions (which should be this real large distance between Tolfalas and Umbar). But yeah, sounds like they'll do a teleport after all. Or some journey on water corridor on open water space (A bay of Belfalas region, and putting out just a bunch of water in large quantity is not difficult), assuming we get these boats. But the coasts of Southern Gondor blocked off, for now. That way, they could play with some water content too, some lone ships, smaller islands etc, other than just near the coast of Umbar itself.

Plus, if we go as far as Andrast ??? Then I really expect these boats to be ready for it. Andrast is such a cool coastal shape to play with and they could do much more with boat travel regarding the coastline than they could ever do in old Gondor.

[Valather89]

Funnily enough the mention of "Outer Gondor" coincides with what can be seen on this pretty awesome map made by a fan/player that I recently saw on reddit --> https://www.reddit.com/r/lotro/comme...dated_for_u34/

I also think that you made some good points on this thread about the future updates keeping us far from anything Harad-esque, so yeah... things seem to be pointing towards Anfalas and Pinnath Gelin for the near future, not towards Harondor. Anfalas' typical landscape also seems to be more similar to what is already in the game -or will soon be-, hence requiring a less daunting amount of new assets.

Regarding Gondor. I would really like to know on how far will this re-imagined version will go.

We have so far see Central Gondor and part of South ithilien .

But what about Beacon hills in the north ?

We will also have Western Gondor re imagination? Western Gondor have already clear skies and haven't been hit by the enemies much.

So for re-imagined version of Gondor we have

Western Gondor (?)
Central Gondor (Check)
South ithilien (half check)
Anorien (check)
Far Gondor (?)

What I gathered was:
Update 36: Eastern Gondor & eastern half of Central Gondor (up until Linhir)
Update 37: something else; I remember reading about some new Further Adventures though.
Update 38: the remaining half of Central Gondor + entire (?) Western Gondor, plus Outer Gondor (whatever it ends up being). There's also the dwarf fortress tease in the new Casual Stroll. I'm not sure if Umbar is included here or if it's supposed to come later, with Update 39, but it will be a pretty huge update/expansion, regardless.

Beacon Hills and the Druadan Forest (Far Anórien) don't seem to be coming quite yet. Perhaps they'll save that update for much later, when Frodo starts his journey back to the Shire, as he crossed that region with everyone.

Without haste and at peace they passed into Anórien, and they came to the Grey Wood under Amon Dîn; and there they heard a sound as of drums beating in the hills, though no living thing could be seen. Then Aragorn let the trumpets be blown; and heralds cried: ‘Behold, the King Elessar is come! The Forest of Drúadan he gives to Ghân-buri-Ghân and to his folk, to be their own for ever; and hereafter let no man enter it without their leave!

[Arnand_the_Fox]

What I gathered was:
Update 36: Eastern Gondor & eastern half of Central Gondor (up until Linhir)
Update 37: something else; I remember reading about some new Further Adventures though.
Update 38: the remaining half of Central Gondor + entire (?) Western Gondor, plus Outer Gondor (whatever it ends up being). There's also the dwarf fortress tease in the new Casual Stroll. I'm not sure if Umbar is included here or if it's supposed to come later, with Update 39, but it will be a pretty huge update/expansion, regardless.

Yes, according to the roadmap its King's Gondor -> further Adventures called "Watching the Wing" -> Outer Gondor/Umbar

I do wonder however, how much of Anfalas they will actually add. The LORTO map has always been kinda weird in that pretty much everything south of the River Isen, and everything west of the midway point of Anafalas, has been cut off from both the Eriador map, and the Gondor map. Given that Anfalas is only supposed to be "sparsely" inhabited, I could see SSG taking that as eastern Anfalas has a few villages, while western Anfalas(not included) is just forest/wild lands. Would make it easier to do especially since Andrast is canonically uninhabited outside of a lighthouse/fort at the very tip of the peninsula(presumably to help ships going from Gondor to the Grey Havens)

In the stream, Scenario says that this is being built up from post-battle Minas Tirith. Am I right in thinking this is the one from March of the King on the Mordor map? I’d kinda assumed that it would be built off the Midsummer map, given it fits the time frame better and Pelennor during March of the King has to be in a pretty unrepaired state, given it is the day after the battle (with Aragorn’s Pavilion in the middle of the plains).

Building off of the Midsummer map might not be possible depending on where it is in the associated game "territory". If it was built near a corner or something then building off of it would require moving the Midsummer version of Minas Tirith somewhere else in the territory that would give it enough space to do everything they want to do. Which means altering every NPC, every enemy spawn, all the reference points for countless objects, quests, and other such stuff. That could very easily become a development burden they can't justify.

[provamail10]

I really like the Gondor revamp and I wish the assets could be backported to the before battle one. I also believe that making more landmass available will improve the game experience.

My main concern is that it's hard to believe that in update 38 we'll get Umbar, most of Central Gondor, all Western Gondor plus Outer Gondor in just one expansion. How could it be? Also, I'd like to ask Scenario if he can explain what he meant for Outer Gondor. Many thanks!

[TesalionLortus]

Anyone figured out yet what's changed in Mirkwood? On the stream Scenario was very adamant they do not make these map updates if there aren't any changes in the tarrain or at least some slight adjustment, so makes me wonder, clearly there must have been something? Unfortunately the Anduin still has a death wall in the middle and I didn't really see anything on a short stroll though Mirkwood