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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curuer_Bauglir View Post
    I was against the store from day 1. I was against the lootboxes from day 1. But if they’re going to have them, cosmetic things like this are exactly what belongs in them. Cosmetics don’t have any impact on gameplay the way gear does, but rather are fun things to collect. Again, I hate them, but they’re here and not going away, so what would you suggest they put in the lootboxes?
    I would suggest they do away with them completely. But, as they are here, and very likely here to stay, because undoubtedly there are players that enjoy them then they should put whatever they want in them. However, whatever they do put in them, should be obtainable in other ways for those that do not want to play the lootbox system.

    I already hear the arguments , , but, but, nobody will buy keys if they can earn the rewards in other ways.

    Nonsense. By SSG's own statements long ago, when they responded to backlash about lootboxes by removing in game earned keys, rather than removing the boxes. We're listening to players, and removing the lootbox keys from the game. We're keeping lootbox keys as a store feature though because there are players that get joy from opening them and they will want to continue to use them.
    Sometimes, no matter how hard you look, there is no best light.


  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fadil View Post
    I never said anything to the contrary, so that's just a silly statement.

    Lets face it, there's an extremely tiny group of players on these mbs, stating over and over
    that lootboxes are bad, without offering any argument for that.
    But if they feel like that, they should not buy those lootboxes, case closed.
    Actually . . .

    "No one forces you to buy a lootbox, but apparently you want to push your ideas upon others and force others not to buy them."

    Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. Trying to convince players that buying into systems like this, will just grow it into something worse because of supply and demand, is not forcing anything.

    Yes, let's face it. There is an extremely tiny group of players on these forums stating over and over that lootboxes are bad. There is an even smaller group of players stating they are good. The forum users are a very tiny percentage of the player base in game. I know more players that have left the game over lootboxes than have expressed a like for them on these boards. That has no bearing on anything, either way so forum numbers is not a sensible argument in these discussions.

    There have been valid arguments presented against them, you just refuse to acknowledge them. Your argument, that they produce revenue hasn't been denied or classed as non existent however, but it has been challenged with the fact that there are other ways to make money. More productive ways. Selling RNG can cause frustrations and distress to players aiming for an item they may never get. Adding time limits is just adding pressure - buy now or lose your chance, but don't forget, it is only chance, and low chance at that. You may pay massive amounts for it, and never get it.
    Last edited by Arnenna; May 23 2022 at 02:29 AM.
    Sometimes, no matter how hard you look, there is no best light.


  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by maartena View Post
    I actually agree with this. If there is anything that belongs in loot boxes it’s not armor that has a direct effect on your combat, but all the fluff such as pets and cosmetics.
    This is well expressed. Thank you.

    I really don't care if folks want to gamble on a chance to get stuff that has no connection to game-play.

    What is wrong is gear, and buffs, etc.

    I believe it is fundamentally wrong to offer up such items in a "slot machine" that you can keep dropping coins in with no limit.

    We should only get items, game-skills, etc, through game-play. I think JRRT would agree, though I doubt he would play our game....

    Like I told you...What I said...Steal your face right off your head.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boraxxe View Post
    This is well expressed. Thank you.

    I really don't care if folks want to gamble on a chance to get stuff that has no connection to game-play.

    What is wrong is gear, and buffs, etc.

    I believe it is fundamentally wrong to offer up such items in a "slot machine" that you can keep dropping coins in with no limit.

    We should only get items, game-skills, etc, through game-play. I think JRRT would agree, though I doubt he would play our game....
    For some players, the game isn't about high end combat, and they make do with quest gears. Their game is all about RPG, outfits, cosmetics, housing etc. That is their game play and these items are connected to it.

    All the devs need to do is keep whatever they put into lootboxes available in other ways (in game grind, later release in game, store). Those that enjoy lootboxes can play all they like with that mini game, without it being imposed on those that do not wish to engage with it.
    Sometimes, no matter how hard you look, there is no best light.


  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    For some players, the game isn't about high end combat, and they make do with quest gears. Their game is all about RPG, outfits, cosmetics, housing etc. That is their game play and these items are connected to it.

    All the devs need to do is keep whatever they put into lootboxes available in other ways (in game grind, later release in game, store). Those that enjoy lootboxes can play all they like with that mini game, without it being imposed on those that do not wish to engage with it.
    Yes. I see your point. Gameplay to me and Gameplay to others can be very different things.
    When I say "gameplay" I am referring to actions that lead to game experience points. Accomplishing tasks/quests/deeds that further the progress toward the "mission" as laid out by the developers. The "Story" of Lotro. Getting a really cool mount or having a wonderful house on an island is not furthering "my" story of Lotro. But those may be an important part of someone else's "story"

    So, how would one define what's Story-stuff and what's fluff?
    There seem to be nuances there that I am not sure I understand.

    What I do understand is that "buying" my way through the story is not a game I want to play.

    Like I told you...What I said...Steal your face right off your head.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    Perhaps you've just been ignoring it, because many people have made solid arguments for why lootboxes are bad. Putting those aside, I'll just lay out it out clear and simple:

    SSG is basically telling players who want to fill out their pet collectibles panel that you can only do this by gambling, and on top of that only for a limited time.

    Regardless of whether it's cosmetics or high end gear, putting pressure on players to gamble on a slot machine for items that are only available for a limited time is wrong. To the players who find filling out their collectibles panel as something important (and likely something they've spent years working towards), their only choice is to gamble and to do it quickly.
    It isnt gambling, which has been argued quite convincingly in that other thread, after which you started a new thread, with exactly the same arguments.
    /sigh

    https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...ootboxes/page2

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Actually . . .

    "No one forces you to buy a lootbox, but apparently you want to push your ideas upon others and force others not to buy them[COLOR=#CCCCCC][I]."
    There is no actually. I have not in any way, shape or form suggested other people are not entitled to express their opinion.
    But lets face it: this is how every discussion on this mb goes: instead of arguing the points, people engage in senseless personal attacks.
    Which creates the stuation that most players simply no longer post here.

    So lets be simple: IF lootboxes work financially (which only SSG knows), that means
    many players buy them and decide to spend their lp on keys.
    That is THEIR choice, not yours.
    If YOU believe lootboxes are evil, dont buy them.
    See how simple that is?

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by maartena View Post
    I actually agree with this. If there is anything that belongs in loot boxes it’s not armor that has a direct effect on your combat, but all the fluff such as pets and cosmetics.

    I open loot boxes from time to time maybe I buy a set of keys once every two months or so and I have had some horses and such things. That’s nice sure, but it really doesn’t bother me if I can’t complete a collection. That’s almost impossible anyways since some things can’t be gotten in game anymore.
    Here is the fun thing, you can get that armor in game by playing the game. It's not even a lucky drop game because you get currency as well with which you can buy the gear. Until now all fluff items were on a barter as well and we earn currency to buy that fluff. Sadly with this update they remove that option. Not that I like seasonal barters. I hate figment cap even more because not every barter has items I like. And when it comes to instance fluff, there is no option but RNG. Why can't we barter for these items like we can for gear?

    Items from these boxes need to be available in game or in store. This goes for hobbit gifts as well. We need more options to get our fluff, not less.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fadil View Post
    There is no actually. I have not in any way, shape or form suggested other people are not entitled to express their opinion.
    But lets face it: this is how every discussion on this mb goes: instead of arguing the points, people engage in senseless personal attacks.
    Which creates the stuation that most players simply no longer post here.

    So lets be simple: IF lootboxes work financially (which only SSG knows), that means
    many players buy them and decide to spend their lp on keys.
    That is THEIR choice, not yours.
    If YOU believe lootboxes are evil, dont buy them.
    See how simple that is?
    Let's be honest here, if I go to the store and buy something I don't buy a chance to get what I want. I go through the store, fill my cart and pay for what I just selected. Buying a key and opening a loot box is more in line with buying a lottery ticket. There is a chance I win. And since I would only open the loot box to get a particular item, the feeling is worse then getting nothing on the ticket. Disappointment, frustration.

    Game of chance. I call it gambling.

    Now I opened loot boxes with keys earned in game and at that point it doesn't bother me what is in the box. Nothing else I can do with these keys.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoRonRon View Post
    I have to assume the proper devs have washed their hands of it all rather than get involved making them fit for Lotro purpose.
    It does feel like that, doesn't it?
    Is there a change in policy for these kinds of items? Can we expect more bad news of this sort "in the near future?
    No one addressed the issue... this seems to be a hot potato & I guess they count on players' memories being short.

  11. #36
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    If I understand correctly most of the arguments against lootboxes have something to do with: If you create a slot machine then people may have a lack of self control and give in to a gambling streak. Wouldn't those same individuals still need some sort of therapy eventually? It's not like the LOTRO (optional) slot machine would satisfy them so it becomes a gateway to addiction.

    Couldn't it also be said that SSG discourages gambling by putting hard caps on useful currencies you obtain from these boxes. Forcing people to think about other methods ingame of obtaining item/currency.

    I think even limited time exclusives are okay as long as it's possible to farm LP free. Even if "limited time" is a couple month you would have enough time to farm plenty of free LP. I could understand the dilemma if limited time were a month though.
    Last edited by alwaysbroke; May 23 2022 at 12:02 PM.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysbroke View Post
    If I understand correctly all the arguments against lootboxes have something to do with: If you create a slot machine then people may have a lack of self control and give in to a gambling streak.
    Might apply to others but this was never my argument.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fadil View Post
    It isnt gambling, which has been argued quite convincingly in that other thread, after which you started a new thread, with exactly the same arguments.
    /sigh

    https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...ootboxes/page2
    I submit, it isn't gambling in the true sense of the word, meaning, officially, because the winnings are not anything of real monetary value. It is however, a game of chance, betting, rolling a dice, taking a pick out of a hat, or whatever other reference of that ilk one can think of.

    It is only the lack of monetary prize that separates it from the true definition of "gambling". The word can still be used though, to describe the game of chance. Ask any burg in the game.
    Sometimes, no matter how hard you look, there is no best light.


  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fadil View Post
    There is no actually. I have not in any way, shape or form suggested other people are not entitled to express their opinion.
    But lets face it: this is how every discussion on this mb goes: instead of arguing the points, people engage in senseless personal attacks.
    Which creates the stuation that most players simply no longer post here.

    So lets be simple: IF lootboxes work financially (which only SSG knows), that means
    many players buy them and decide to spend their lp on keys.
    That is THEIR choice, not yours.
    If YOU believe lootboxes are evil, dont buy them.
    See how simple that is?
    I don't buy them. I don't see them as "evil" I see them as unethical. A means to make players potentially (high chance) of paying over the odds for a single item that they could sell in the store for a one-off payment.

    I have never said that players that wish to buy keys should be my choice. You're getting away with yourself there. It is their choice, and any player that decides to boycott them, or encourage others to do so, is just going along with their choices too. It doesn't matter if you think it funny to see such posts, because you feel the game needs the revenue from them. It doesn't matter that you think it is "force" rather than encouragement either. It is what it is. Those that want to buy these things can. Those that want to try and persuade others how bad they are, also can.
    Sometimes, no matter how hard you look, there is no best light.


  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurelinarien View Post
    Might apply to others but this was never my argument.
    Ok, I edit my post

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoRonRon View Post
    My issue is that it's all the monetisation stuff that so poorly implemented.
    It has gotten a LOT better over the last 3 months or so..... We got a lot of stuff for free now that used to be paid stuff, such as the Premium Wallet and the Gold Cap Removal. Along with getting all pre-2013 content for free and some other things, it has improved by a LOT. There are also so many options to get Lotro Points inside the game, so the things you do still need to buy in the Lotro Store can be gotten.

    You used to have to get the riding skill for every toon, and all sorts of things for every toon..... but no more. The only thing that really may still be a thing you need is a few more milestones and the skill that shortens the time on them....

    Many improvements can still be made, but I feel they are on the right track.

    Lootboxes..... meh, every time I open some I always end up disappointed, so I try to not open any. Usually I only open some when I get a toon to the max level, and then maybe once every 2 months or so when they make lootbox changes. But I am VIP and get 500 LP a month, so I don't really have to buy LP. I only sometimes do that with a new toon for some of the necessities such as milestones.
    Moved from Riddermark to Arkenstone on 9/29/2015!
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  17. #42
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    It's a bit naïve to just let some plonker with more money than sense be dictating the direction that monetization within the game takes us. Worst is those totally unsuited to traditional MMO play, who don't really have the funds, needing what boosts they can garner from the lootbox gear (and the Valars and store nonsense) that everyone else would be flaming (gimmicks to dismiss or abuse if given away). Like that's going to make them fit in!

    "Plonkers means prizes" SSG_Bruce_Forsyth. Quote and Attribution needs citation... (i.e. it's not in the least accurate)

    Problem is that EG7 has this average dollar figure that's extracted every month from the active players to "persuade" the "investors". Not the net profits the Studio generates. Half that dollar figure and quadruple the active would come close to double profits. Except the game currently only runs well enough at halving the actives... Can't be talking about profits so much if studios aren't making any, have to highlight the positives in stead. Think sub-prime market - graphics overhaul, console and Amazon's series influence - /player_doubletake.

    Is it the intention to confuse the customer base or just a consequence of poor judgement and ignorance of the game in house? How many have their box of dice sitting on their desks and are steeped in "chance"? Percentile dice worn away with use or particular edges to give them, ironically, an edge? Every die it's own method to roll, the noob exposed by their 4-sider slide, D'Oh... My own box hasn't seen the light of day for 30 years.

    Does our empathy reach far enough to feel for the plonker or investor, when their predation influences the game so much?

    I was very, very happy to open the collections panels on a 140 alt today and see a pop up informing me of what I was seeing for the first time ever on that character. You'd be dumb to add to localised lag with pets and cloaks on show on Evernight anyway.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    I submit, it isn't gambling in the true sense of the word, meaning, officially, because the winnings are not anything of real monetary value. It is however, a game of chance, betting, rolling a dice, taking a pick out of a hat, or whatever other reference of that ilk one can think of.

    It is only the lack of monetary prize that separates it from the true definition of "gambling". The word can still be used though, to describe the game of chance. Ask any burg in the game.
    Sure, but if you look at it like that there is a ton of 'gambling' in mmorpgs .
    Every time you open a hobbit present (and yes I do that every day), you gamble. If during the festivals you spend
    your steel tokens on legendary boxes (which might give a tracery), you gamble.
    In fact if you raid or do an instance: you gamble, you might get good loot, it might suck.
    It's just RNG in a game.
    I find the loot you get from lootboxes pretty good, 6 opened gave me 4 of the items I was after
    (Housing items) and you can buy the keys with lp you gain while playing.
    Not much else to buy with lp anyway.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fadil View Post
    Sure, but if you look at it like that there is a ton of 'gambling' in mmorpgs .
    Every time you open a hobbit present (and yes I do that every day), you gamble. If during the festivals you spend
    your steel tokens on legendary boxes (which might give a tracery), you gamble.
    In fact if you raid or do an instance: you gamble, you might get good loot, it might suck.
    It's just RNG in a game.
    I find the loot you get from lootboxes pretty good, 6 opened gave me 4 of the items I was after
    (Housing items) and you can buy the keys with lp you gain while playing.
    Not much else to buy with lp anyway.
    There is a difference between those that you listed and lootboxes. Keys are not earned in game, everything else is, even that daily hobbit spin. 195 LP a spin is not really sustainable via normal playing.

    You are right about one thing though, there isn't much else to buy with LP. A bit weird really for a game that has players professing that it needs to make money for basic things such as decent servers and customer service.
    Sometimes, no matter how hard you look, there is no best light.


  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    There is a difference between those that you listed and lootboxes. Keys are not earned in game, everything else is, even that daily hobbit spin. 195 LP a spin is not really sustainable via normal playing.

    You are right about one thing though, there isn't much else to buy with LP. A bit weird really for a game that has players professing that it needs to make money for basic things such as decent servers and customer service.
    Keys are not earned in game and I don't spend LP on them. Using LP for keys encourages these practices even if I earn that in game.

    We need new items in the store and at Lalia's. An easy way would be to offer alternatives to RNG items and barter items. The ornate table for example and several Lothlorien items are on the barter and in the store. So this wouldn't be anything they haven't done before. Retired special hobbit gifts, the reward track items and the box items could be added to the store. But also instance RNG fluff once that instance is not cap play anymore. I wouldn't mind rep and festival items either since they require special currency. When I decorate a house and need a wicker chair I don't want to wait months for the ability to buy one or do the same dailies again 100 times. I have 4 stablemasters and plan on buying another once I get my Erebor housing. I love that they are racial. Why don't we have these options for barber and banker?

    We need alternatives not locks behind one activity, open fluff rewards up in different directions. And use the store on top of other options. There are ways to utilize the store and keep the RNG factors. I don't mind waiting until this figment season is over but really would like to have the opportunity to buy from the store directly.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    We need new items in the store and at Lalia's.
    Now this I agree with. Although it is unfortunate that the Lalia store was a side project from a dev that no longer works for SSG, as he was culled during one of the layoffs about 5 years ago, and Lalia's has pretty much been stagnant since then.

    It's a shame, because it certainly is a great concept.
    Moved from Riddermark to Arkenstone on 9/29/2015!
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by maartena View Post
    Now this I agree with. Although it is unfortunate that the Lalia store was a side project from a dev that no longer works for SSG, as he was culled during one of the layoffs about 5 years ago, and Lalia's has pretty much been stagnant since then.

    It's a shame, because it certainly is a great concept.
    I've been asking about this for years (also about bringing back older cosmetics as we've had the same ones on rotation year in, year out). To date, I haven't received a response from any of the staff here.
    Check out my LOTRO videos on Youtube at: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRX...jPUNAiwtrJ_eiw

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    Just my own experience, but rather than filtering lootboxes, I wait until I get 10 (the max I can fit in one mail) then offer them for free. Most times I can find someone who will take them. Sometimes it takes a day or two to find someone, but not often. So I would say there's at least a reasonably sized population of players who are willing to open lootboxes. I'm sure many people just open whatever they collect themselves, of course.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambtron View Post
    I've been asking about this for years (also about bringing back older cosmetics as we've had the same ones on rotation year in, year out). To date, I haven't received a response from any of the staff here.
    Every time I asked the question in Cordovan's stream in the past it was either ignored, or "nothing to say on that" or something along those lines. I think when the dev who created Lalia's shop left the company, it was not considered important enough to spend any more time on. Meanwhile we have gotten cosmetic weapons and shields (since 2015) and the question then was if they could add some of those to Lalia's.....but to no avail.

    I think Laila's as an idea was abandoned in 2015 or so, and that was basically the end of it. I wish they would update it, but with everything they have planned, and everything they have promised to do already..... I doubt they have time this year. Or next year.
    Moved from Riddermark to Arkenstone on 9/29/2015!
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    When you open up the 100 for the Donkey it attempts to dump a load (>3,241) of AS on you too. Clear down space if you have figured out how to. I never bothered with opening the season one 100 so maybe you all know already...

 

 
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