Collectible Pets Only Available From Lootboxes is Wrong. Please Reconsider.

[Lambtron]

I think Laila's as an idea was abandoned in 2015 or so, and that was basically the end of it. I wish they would update it, but with everything they have planned, and everything they have promised to do already..... I doubt they have time this year. Or next year.

That explains some things. I've been checking every rotation of Lalia's since 2015, and have yet to see the return of an apparently older cosmetic there (Ceremonial Cloak of the Misty Night).

Still, quite disappointing that you've asked that question repeatedly only to be ignored. I can't speak for others, of course, but I can't be the only one who wants to see more cosmetics (especially older items) brought to Lalia's. It literally would be "shut up and take my money" for SSG.

[Boraxxe]

That explains some things. I've been checking every rotation of Lalia's since 2015, and have yet to see the return of an apparently older cosmetic there (Ceremonial Cloak of the Misty Night).

Still, quite disappointing that you've asked that question repeatedly only to be ignored. I can't speak for others, of course, but I can't be the only one who wants to see more cosmetics (especially older items) brought to Lalia's. It literally would be "shut up and take my money" for SSG.

It is kinda' strange. Lalia opens her market and never updates the stock?
I wonder...does she consider it a museum?

Well, at least she has a popular product in the 3MC Return-to tickets. Best deal going. All of my alts buy that before anything else.

[Lambtron]

It is kinda' strange. Lalia opens her market and never updates the stock?
I wonder...does she consider it a museum?

Well, at least she has a popular product in the 3MC Return-to tickets. Best deal going. All of my alts buy that before anything else.

I've checked EVERY rotation since early 2015. It's always the same. Yes, you have the desired sets like the Grey Company ranger outfit and a number of others, but it's quite limited. It just doesn't make any sense to me to not change that and add different items. They already have the assets ingame, surely it doesn't take much time to allocate them.

[why-becauseIcan]

It isnt gambling, which has been argued quite convincingly in that other thread, after which you started a new thread, with exactly the same arguments.
/sigh

https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...ootboxes/page2

The upcoming Gambling Act review is set to look at the question, with the UK's House of Lords already having weighed in to say that loot boxes should be firmly regulated as "games of chance".

Loot boxes are a video game feature involving a sealed mystery "box" - sometimes earned through playing the game and sometimes paid for with real money - which can be opened for a random collection of in-game items such as weapons or cosmetic costumes.

The new research, commissioned by the GambleAware charity, compiles existing research to examine the strength of links between the in-game random prizes and gambling behaviour. It found:

Of the 93% of children who play video games, up to 40% opened loot boxes
About 5% of gamers generate half the entire revenue from the boxes
Twelve out of 13 studies on the topic have established "unambiguous" connections to problem gambling behaviour
Young men are the most likely to use loot boxes - with young age and lower education correlating with increased uses
The report said that many games use a "psychological nudge" to encourage people to buy loot boxes - such as the fear of missing out on limited-time items or special deals.

"Many gamers do ascribe discrete financial values to loot box contents - based on purchase or resale price - suggesting that many loot boxes meet existing criteria for gambling regulation," the authors wrote.

The big spenders - the crucial 5% for the industry - can spend more than £70 or $100 a month on the boxes, the report said. But those are not necessarily wealthy people who earn lots of money.

"Our research therefore demonstrates that games developers, unwittingly or not, appear to be generating outsized loot box profits from at-risk individuals (these are likely to include both people with gambling problems or problematic patterns of video gaming) - but not from wealthy gamers," it concluded.

Source:https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56614281


Support this trash monetization while you can lol.

[Ketriana]

As someone who loves the cosmetics in LOTRO, I am also very unhappy with this decision. I don't mind buying mounts, outfits, pets, or housing items in the store (and I do so regularly) but I will never waste money gambling by buying keys. Many of the recent decisions by SSG are really concerning and and have left me reconsidering my VIP subscription: placing the new cosmetic items in lootboxes rather than on the figment vendor, a single character-only version of reward track pets/emotes, removal of reputation accelerators for barter, as well as your previous attempt to increase the figment cost of cosmetics and remove the motes-> figments conversion. I really don't like the direction that LOTRO seems to be headed and I can't see myself continuing to financially support it when it feels like cosmetic collectors are viewed as cash cows to be taken advantage of.

I hope SSG is also considering how much money they stand to lose by alienating veteran players with changes like these, rather than simply thinking we are so addicted to the game that we will continue to pay up regardless of what shady tactics are used. I've walked away from the game before and I can easily do so again if this is the direction things are headed, and I'm sure many other players feel the same way. I love LOTRO and I want it to succeed, but I'm not willing to support these monetization tactics.

[Boraxxe]

As someone who loves the cosmetics in LOTRO, I am also very unhappy with this decision. I don't mind buying mounts, outfits, pets, or housing items in the store (and I do so regularly) but I will never waste money gambling by buying keys. Many of the recent decisions by SSG are really concerning and and have left me reconsidering my VIP subscription: placing the new cosmetic items in lootboxes rather than on the figment vendor, a single character-only version of reward track pets/emotes, removal of reputation accelerators for barter, as well as your previous attempt to increase the figment cost of cosmetics and remove the motes-> figments conversion. I really don't like the direction that LOTRO seems to be headed and I can't see myself continuing to financially support it when it feels like cosmetic collectors are viewed as cash cows to be taken advantage of.

I hope SSG is also considering how much money they stand to lose by alienating veteran players with changes like these, rather than simply thinking we are so addicted to the game that we will continue to pay up regardless of what shady tactics are used. I've walked away from the game before and I can easily do so again if this is the direction things are headed, and I'm sure many other players feel the same way. I love LOTRO and I want it to succeed, but I'm not willing to support these monetization tactics.

Thanks for those words. "waste money gambling by buying keys"
This is exactly the point that many of us are trying to make.
It is despicable.

[Arantha]

and just think about it: no keys in the shop since long time, and no mithril aswell

[Ketriana]

Thanks for those words. "waste money gambling by buying keys"
This is exactly the point that many of us are trying to make.
It is despicable.

I agree. I used some of the free anniversary keys I had on bank mules to open a few boxes out of curiosity and either I'm just super unlucky or the drop rate is obscenely low on the new items. There's no way I would ever buy dozens and dozens of keys in the hope of getting one or two cosmetic items I want. SSG's decision to make the new cosmetic stuff only available through lootboxes, rather than through the rotating figment vendor as normal, is extremely shady.

I don't care about grinding instances for better gear so when I finish new story content I spend my time decorating my houses and collecting new cosmetics and pets. The decisions SSG is taking lately make me feel like the company sees players like me as foolish cash cows that can be squeezed to subsidize all the new F2P players that joined for the anniversary freebies. I want LOTRO to succeed and I have not hesitated to support the game financially, but these recent changes leave a bad taste in my mouth. I am not someone who can be tricked into gambling hundreds of dollars away on keys in hopes of obtaining cosmetics that would normally be available for barter, and the fact that SSG thinks that of players like me makes me want to cancel my VIP. I don't want to support a company that treats a portion of their player base that way.

Yes, players who don't care about cosmetics can easily say "cosmetics don't impact gameplay, so it's ok to put them in lootboxes" but this DOES impact my gameplay and that of players like me. I could say the same thing about putting BiS gear into lootboxes - it wouldn't effect me, since I don't care about having the best gear, so I could simply tell others to ignore it but I'm sure many players would be furious. It's the same thing. All players should be alarmed at monetization changes like this since it shows that SSG is happy to lock desirable items behind lootboxes. I'm sure if these tactics succeed then it will impact all sorts of players eventually. The recent changes to reputation accelerators prove this.

[Thurinuor]

I agree. I used some of the free anniversary keys I had on bank mules to open a few boxes out of curiosity and either I'm just super unlucky or the drop rate is obscenely low on the new items. There's no way I would ever buy dozens and dozens of keys in the hope of getting one or two cosmetic items I want. SSG's decision to make the new cosmetic stuff only available through lootboxes, rather than through the rotating figment vendor as normal, is extremely shady.

I don't care about grinding instances for better gear so when I finish new story content I spend my time decorating my houses and collecting new cosmetics and pets. The decisions SSG is taking lately make me feel like the company sees players like me as foolish cash cows that can be squeezed to subsidize all the new F2P players that joined for the anniversary freebies. I want LOTRO to succeed and I have not hesitated to support the game financially, but these recent changes leave a bad taste in my mouth. I am not someone who can be tricked into gambling hundreds of dollars away on keys in hopes of obtaining cosmetics that would normally be available for barter, and the fact that SSG thinks that of players like me makes me want to cancel my VIP. I don't want to support a company that treats a portion of their player base that way.

Yes, players who don't care about cosmetics can easily say "cosmetics don't impact gameplay, so it's ok to put them in lootboxes" but this DOES impact my gameplay and that of players like me. I could say the same thing about putting BiS gear into lootboxes - it wouldn't effect me, since I don't care about having the best gear, so I could simply tell others to ignore it but I'm sure many players would be furious. It's the same thing. All players should be alarmed at monetization changes like this since it shows that SSG is happy to lock desirable items behind lootboxes. I'm sure if these tactics succeed then it will impact all sorts of players eventually. The recent changes to reputation accelerators prove this.

100% agree.

[wispsong]

Thanks for those words. "waste money gambling by buying keys"
This is exactly the point that many of us are trying to make.
It is despicable.

Yes, it is. I opened 3 boxes on a new lvl 50 who had the black keys from a present. Got about 1000 motes including those from on some mediocre armor and something else forgettable. No fluff, not even from Filberts barter items which I now need for a Erebor house. For the 600 LP these keys would have cost me I could have bought a stable. Waste money gambling instead of buying what is wanted.
Sadly, some players do not seem to understand the difference between buying the item from the store and gambling for it.

[Fadil]

The upcoming Gambling Act review is set to look at the question, with the UK's House of Lords already having weighed in to say that loot boxes should be firmly regulated as "games of chance".

Loot boxes are a video game feature involving a sealed mystery "box" - sometimes earned through playing the game and sometimes paid for with real money - which can be opened for a random collection of in-game items such as weapons or cosmetic costumes.

I have followed this discussion, but so far in some countries it has been decided that lootboxes in games are in fact legally NOT gambling.
If you can translate it, this article describes the arguments and decision of the highest legal college in
the Netherlands of March 2022:

https://tweakers.net/nieuws/194156/n...herroepen.html


The arguments used by the judges are the same as described by Maartena in that other thread.
You may disagree with those arguments, some scientists may disagree, but that doesnt change the law.

It's also important to note that the research you quoted is about games where you can buy advantages
in COMPETITIVE games, that will put players ahead of others.
Hardly the practise of getting a donkey pet, but more like getting better players in Fifa.

And finally: I find it interesting that those that argue that lootboxes are unethical dont mention the real
problem: that MMORPGS are incredibly addictive and that some (a lot of) people go incredibly far to satisfy their
addiction. Including dropping out of college, spending large amlunts of rl cash on games and basically not experiencing any kind of real
life social interactions.
Lootboxes arent the problem, mmorpgs are.

[maartena]

The upcoming Gambling Act review is set to look at the question, with the UK's House of Lords already having weighed in to say that loot boxes should be firmly regulated as "games of chance".

I have followed this discussion, but so far in some countries it has been decided that lootboxes in games are in fact legally NOT gambling.
If you can translate it, this article describes the arguments and decision of the highest legal college in
the Netherlands of March 2022:

These two laws and/or law proposals however do not mean that Lotro changes, or has to change. A few things to remember:

1) SSG no longer operates officially as a business in the EU or the UK. The last time they did was before 2011 when Codemasters operated the EU servers. When they were moved back to Turbine in Massachusetts, USA, the servers and the game fell completely back under US law, and in particular Massachusetts law.

2) The PUBLISHER is now EG7, a Swedish company, but they have left the SSG company and therefore its legal status intact. The fact that EG7 now owns SSG and the gaming rights, does not mean that therefore they have to adhere to Swedish law. SSG has no business assets in Europe at all, and I would not be in the least surprised that when the decision was made NOT to operate servers in the EU was done so they do NOT have to follow upcoming loot box laws, because operating servers physically IN the EU would mean they would have a business presence there and as such would need to follow EU law. In that regard, it may have been wise - from a loot box and legal point of view - to not engage in business in the EU by moving servers there.

3) The ONLY LAWS that SSG needs to adhere to are those of the country and the state (due to the Federalist system of government in the USA) they are registered businesses in. In the United States, there are no federal laws that deal with loot boxes or gambling, this is all done by the local states. So at the end of the day, the ONLY law that matters is that of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. If Massachusetts decides on a law regarding gambling and loot boxes, THAT is when they have to change their game. There might be an argument that they also have to follow the law in New Jersey, as that is where their datacenter is, but I cannot be sure about the legal precedence there since they are not registered there as a business.

4) The fact that they can accept payments in GBP and EUR currencies, does not mean they have to be a registered business in the countries that regulate that currency. They have outsourced to a third-party payment processor who has the capacity to accept those currencies.

5) Some other games - especially BIG companies such as Microsoft (XBox), Sony (PlayStation), Electronic Arts, Epic Games, etc will HAVE to follow EU regulations on this matter if they have servers present and/or registered business presence in the UK or EU, and I think it is safe to say they do.

So at the end of the day, what countries in the EU or what the UK does regarding loot boxes, really has no bearing on SSG and what they do. If people want to use legal channels to change the laws that Lotro needs to adhere to, they will need to go to the courts in Massachusetts and file a lawsuit or motion there, or maybe convince local lawmakers and senators to take action on passing a law regarding loot boxes. As long as that does not happen, Lotro as a game does not have to change their tactics.

Here is an interesting quote from an article about a California lawsuit regarding loot boxes from January 2022: https://news.bloomberglaw.com/tech-a...o-defense-wins

"Turning to the merits, the court said loot boxes aren’t illegal slot machines under California gambling laws because they don’t offer a chance to win a thing of value.
The plaintiffs’ theory that loot box prizes have subjective value to gamers is untenable, the court said."

So courts within at least one state in the USA seem to have ruled that loot boxes are not gambling, because nothing of actual dollar value (insert euro, pound, etc) is actually obtained with them.

And as much as some of you like to believe it is gambling, the law in several countries and US states seem to disagree with you.

[maartena]

And finally: I find it interesting that those that argue that lootboxes are unethical dont mention the real
problem: that MMORPGS are incredibly addictive and that some (a lot of) people go incredibly far to satisfy their
addiction. Including dropping out of college, spending large amlunts of rl cash on games and basically not experiencing any kind of real
life social interactions.
Lootboxes arent the problem, mmorpgs are.

Yep. There was a time in my younger years I played Everquest at the elite level, raiding for 5, 6 hours at a time, giving up social events such as birthday parties for friends because it was raid night, and generally just spending most of my free time behind a computer. I still spend a LOT of time behind a computer, but I do not play as I used to..... and I don't always play the same game because I "must do dailies" or some reason. I enjoy sitting in the yard with my wife, watching movies with her, going on travels now that covid is behind us.... my life as a game has changed from "raiding pro" to..... well... "casual hobbit", more or less. I still log on most days, but I don't feel the need to like I did years ago with Everquest. In Lotro, the last time I was seriously raiding was when the level cap was 85.

If i don't do my dailies, I don't care. Hell, I haven't done them in months because I am levelling up yet another new toon! I don't have to have the latest and greatest, I don't have to have all the pets, and I don't have to have all the horses. I just enjoy the game now and the landscape, and that is fine by me!

I don't care if some things are unobtainable because they are in loot boxes, and maybe once in while I get some keys and see if I am lucky. But not today, maybe when my newest toon is 140.

And that would be my recommendation to everyone here: Just chill and play, and don't worry about what is or is not in loot boxes!

[Arnenna]

I have followed this discussion, but so far in some countries it has been decided that lootboxes in games are in fact legally NOT gambling.
If you can translate it, this article describes the arguments and decision of the highest legal college in
the Netherlands of March 2022:

https://tweakers.net/nieuws/194156/n...herroepen.html


The arguments used by the judges are the same as described by Maartena in that other thread.
You may disagree with those arguments, some scientists may disagree, but that doesnt change the law.

It's also important to note that the research you quoted is about games where you can buy advantages
in COMPETITIVE games, that will put players ahead of others.
Hardly the practise of getting a donkey pet, but more like getting better players in Fifa.

And finally: I find it interesting that those that argue that lootboxes are unethical dont mention the real
problem: that MMORPGS are incredibly addictive and that some (a lot of) people go incredibly far to satisfy their
addiction. Including dropping out of college, spending large amlunts of rl cash on games and basically not experiencing any kind of real
life social interactions.
Lootboxes arent the problem, mmorpgs are.

More word mincing.

Yes, mmorpgs are addictive, its what keeps them afloat. That doesn't mean making them even more addictive by introducing games of chance into them is a good thing. It's just more oil onto the fire. Players that feed into the general addiction of the game, do so with their eyes open. They know what they are buying and how much it is costing. Lootboxes are a different monster.

By the way, adventurers lootboxes, since the last update can contain items of gear with an ilevel of 469. That's competitive and puts players ahead of others.

[huldus]

There really isn't much to do since the game is f2p after all. I'm surprised they didn't put the pet(s) in the store to be honest - but it just shows that they know what they're doing, going for that low hanging fruit.

[Boraxxe]

What I find despicable about these lootboxes is the odds of getting what you want are atrocious.
If it was a coin-flip, that would be one thing. Keep flipping the coins and every time your odds are 50/50.

With lootboxes it's like this : You pay the dealer. He cuts the deck and shows a 6.
Now you need to choose from the remaining 51 cards and also pick a 6.

If you fail, pay again, and start over.

I can't believe anyone would try to get one of these Pets if they understood those odds.

[Fadil]

More word mincing.

Yes, mmorpgs are addictive, its what keeps them afloat. That doesn't mean making them even more addictive by introducing games of chance into them is a good thing. It's just more oil onto the fire. Players that feed into the general addiction of the game, do so with their eyes open. They know what they are buying and how much it is costing. Lootboxes are a different monster.

By the way, adventurers lootboxes, since the last update can contain items of gear with an ilevel of 469. That's competitive and puts players ahead of others.

So basically you're just using a lot of big words on a mb and whenever people show you, you are factually wrong, you call it word mincing. Ok.

As for the second point: the only reason why most people call gambling unethical is because A: its addictive, B: it can ruin people's lives.
Both equally apply to mmorpgs.
People play mmorpgs with their eyes open and buy lootboxes with their eyes open.
The addiction is in the mmorpg, not the lootboxes.
But I guess you dont call your own activity unethical because you enjoy it too much.

[Fadil]

Yep. There was a time in my younger years I played Everquest at the elite level, raiding for 5, 6 hours at a time, giving up social events such as birthday parties for friends because it was raid night, and generally just spending most of my free time behind a computer. I still spend a LOT of time behind a computer, but I do not play as I used to..... and I don't always play the same game because I "must do dailies" or some reason. I enjoy sitting in the yard with my wife, watching movies with her, going on travels now that covid is behind us.... my life as a game has changed from "raiding pro" to..... well... "casual hobbit", more or less. I still log on most days, but I don't feel the need to like I did years ago with Everquest. In Lotro, the last time I was seriously raiding was when the level cap was 85.

Same story for me. Everquest still feels like the most addictive game I played.
8 hours in Plane of Fear/ Hate, was nothing unusual.

I witnessed the start of people spending fortunes of rl money on game items, in Ultima Online.

It was not unusual people would pay 350 dollars or more for certain very special items, on Ebay.
You cant blame game companies for thinking: if people are spending so
much money on game items, we should be the ones selling them.
Thus the game stores were born.

Anyway, that's kinda off topic here.

[Uroc]

More word mincing.

Yes, mmorpgs are addictive, its what keeps them afloat. That doesn't mean making them even more addictive by introducing games of chance into them is a good thing. It's just more oil onto the fire. Players that feed into the general addiction of the game, do so with their eyes open. They know what they are buying and how much it is costing. Lootboxes are a different monster.

By the way, adventurers lootboxes, since the last update can contain items of gear with an ilevel of 469. That's competitive and puts players ahead of others.

This.

I cant believe there are people who actually defend lootboxes.

[Arnenna]

So basically you're just using a lot of big words on a mb and whenever people show you, you are factually wrong, you call it word mincing. Ok.

As for the second point: the only reason why most people call gambling unethical is because A: its addictive, B: it can ruin people's lives.
Both equally apply to mmorpgs.
People play mmorpgs with their eyes open and buy lootboxes with their eyes open.
The addiction is in the mmorpg, not the lootboxes.
But I guess you dont call your own activity unethical because you enjoy it too much.

Please don't make wild guesses about my game activity. I doubt you'd get the right forest, let alone the right tree.

If you feel that the game itself is so unethical, maybe you shouldn't play it. I at least, don't play the part that I find unethical. It's difficult to understand someone screaming that's unethical - whilst they are doing it.

Nobody has their eyes wide open when opening a lootbox. They are designed around chance. They do not know what they will get, or how much they will have to pay trying to get what they are trying to buy.

Word mincing, in the context I used it = trying to detract valid opinion from the lootbox opinion by deviating to something else.

[alwaysbroke]

...By the way, adventurers lootboxes, since the last update can contain items of gear with an ilevel of 469. That's competitive and puts players ahead of others.

The iLvl of gear is directly tied to your level when you open them so no it doesn't put you ahead.

[Arnenna]

The iLvl of gear is directly tied to your level when you open them so no it doesn't put you ahead.

Presumably if a level 140 opens one and gets i-level 469, and another level 140 doesn't, yes, you would be ahead of them.

Not talking here about level ranges, just par for par players - at the same level - with or without the highest possible lootbox gear.

[alwaysbroke]

Presumably if a level 140 opens one and gets i-level 469, and another level 140 doesn't, yes, you would be ahead of them.

Not talking here about level ranges, just par for par players - at the same level - with or without the highest possible lootbox gear.

Only if you get the piece of gear you want. Otherwise you get to destroy it for substantially less embers. Which is more common.

[Arnenna]

Only if you get the piece of gear you want. Otherwise you get to destroy it for substantially less embers. Which is more common.

There rests the point. The possibility is there, and it's a game of chance, with results that CAN put a player ahead.

[wispsong]

The gear is for barter, everything else can be gotten in game but as of now some cosmetics are only in boxes. Why? Everything in the boxes should be obtainable in game or nothing.

Same problem with instances, gear is for barter but not the fluff.