Why were Men forbidden to enter Valinor?

[LagunaD2]

This question suddenly occurred to me yesterday.

It was the Valar who came up with the idea of bringing the first-born to Valinor, to protect them from Melkor's asshat-ery.

Men, the second-born, were even more at risk, being physically more fragile.

After the rebellion of the Noldor, Valinor seems to have been closed off to everyone - even the grey elves who had not transgressed.

After the War of Wrath, elves were welcome again, but the Men who had fought against Morgoth were humiliated by the ban (in effect, racial segregation) against them.

Sauron eventually convinced Ar-Pharazon that occupying Valinor would confer immortality - but this idea is derided as another of Sauron's lies. So it wasn't that visiting Valinor would interfere with Eru's gift, either.

[Alcor]

Pure conjecture on my part, but elves were meant to live physically forever and Valinor is the place, "on earth" they can do that. Men were created to be mortal and not designed to live forever. That doesn't solve to problem of Bilbo, Frodo, Sam and Gimli getting to go and we don't know if they lived forever when they got there are were cured of their hurts (in the case of the hobbits anyway) and eventually aged and died.

As I said, pure conjecture. :-)

[Radhruin_EU]

Pure conjecture on my part, but elves were meant to live physically forever and Valinor is the place, "on earth" they can do that. Men were created to be mortal and not designed to live forever. That doesn't solve to problem of Bilbo, Frodo, Sam and Gimli getting to go and we don't know if they lived forever when they got there are were cured of their hurts (in the case of the hobbits anyway) and eventually aged and died.

As I said, pure conjecture. :-)

Men wouldn't live any longer in Valinor (if anything, it'd be too much for them and they'd die all the sooner); that was what the messengers oft he Valar told the Numenoreans. Valinor was intended for the Elves, it was part of Arda and so provided a place for them to go, still bound to the world because that was their fate. The fate of Men was different - following their death, the spirits of Men left the world entirely and went somewhere else, to a place known only to Eru Iluvatar (by implication, some analogue of Heaven) where they'd live eternally. The Elves on the other hand were tied to the fate of the world and its eventual destruction. Elves got hugely extended lives in the world (they weren't actually immortal, they just aged really, really slowly) and even after their bodily death they could be reborn in a new body and live again, but that would only go on so long as the world lasted and so it wasn't forever. So the deal was that Valinor wasn't 'meant' for Men, it wasn't suited to their nature and they wouldn't be able to withstand the experience for long so they were kept out. (Also, it was hallowed ground so no mundane oiks allowed - they'd only make the place untidy).

If you're wondering about Frodo, he'd only have got as far as Tol Eressea (an island within sight of Valinor) where things weren't quite so intense and he could live out his life after having his hurts healed. It's Tolkien's version of Avalon (the city which stood on Tol Eressea was called Avallónë, which rather gives the game away). But just like Avalon, it's still mystical as all get out so you'd have to have done something extra-special to get an invite, so to speak.

[Alcor]

Men wouldn't live any longer in Valinor (if anything, it'd be too much for them and they'd die all the sooner); that was what the messengers oft he Valar told the Numenoreans. Valinor was intended for the Elves, it was part of Arda and so provided a place for them to go, still bound to the world because that was their fate. The fate of Men was different - following their death, the spirits of Men left the world entirely and went somewhere else, to a place known only to Eru Iluvatar (by implication, some analogue of Heaven) where they'd live eternally. The Elves on the other hand were tied to the fate of the world and its eventual destruction. Elves got hugely extended lives in the world (they weren't actually immortal, they just aged really, really slowly) and even after their bodily death they could be reborn in a new body and live again, but that would only go on so long as the world lasted and so it wasn't forever. So the deal was that Valinor wasn't 'meant' for Men, it wasn't suited to their nature and they wouldn't be able to withstand the experience for long so they were kept out. (Also, it was hallowed ground so no mundane oiks allowed - they'd only make the place untidy).

If you're wondering about Frodo, he'd only have got as far as Tol Eressea (an island within sight of Valinor) where things weren't quite so intense and he could live out his life after having his hurts healed. It's Tolkien's version of Avalon (the city which stood on Tol Eressea was called Avallónë, which rather gives the game away). But just like Avalon, it's still mystical as all get out so you'd have to have done something extra-special to get an invite, so to speak.

Thanks for that. I always appreciate your posts on matters of lore. I thought that Frodo et al would only make to an island within sight of Valinor, but could neither remember its name nor if me recollection were correct.

[Halphast]

If you're wondering about Frodo, he'd only have got as far as Tol Eressea (an island within sight of Valinor) where things weren't quite so intense and he could live out his life after having his hurts healed. It's Tolkien's version of Avalon (the city which stood on Tol Eressea was called Avallónë, which rather gives the game away). But just like Avalon, it's still mystical as all get out so you'd have to have done something extra-special to get an invite, so to speak.

It's also my understanding that Valinor would cause mortals to sort of "burn out" because of its nature. However it may have been different for Frodo et al, since having been ring-bearers extended their youth/lives. Lorien (not Lothlorien) was the place of healing hurts in Valinor so it always made sense that Frodo would have spent time there, and iirc Lorien was pretty far inland on mainland Valinor.

Earendil freely wandered around, making his way alone all the way to Tirion and wasn't instantly killed or burned out, so it doesn't seem like Frodo/Sam would have to be immediately confined to Tol Eressea for the rest of their lives. There's also the question of how time flows and how it's perceived in Valinor, if it flows at all. Even in Lothlorien Frodo and his friends were confused about the passage of time, and Legolas said "Time does not tarry ever, but change and growth is not in all things and places alike."

I don't think Tolkien had it in mind that Frodo sailed away and very quickly died in Valinor- otherwise it would be disturbing and morbid for Sam to finally arrive after all that span of years only to be alone because Frodo had already died.

[Radhruin_EU]

It's also my understanding that Valinor would cause mortals to sort of "burn out" because of its nature. However it may have been different for Frodo et al, since having been ring-bearers extended their youth/lives. Lorien (not Lothlorien) was the place of healing hurts in Valinor so it always made sense that Frodo would have spent time there, and iirc Lorien was pretty far inland on mainland Valinor.

That was what I was getting at, as per what the Numenoreans were told: "...there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast." It's meant to be just too much for any mortal to stand for long. If Frodo had to go to Lorien to be healed as you suggest, that wouldn't mean he'd have to stay there long-term. Besides, Tolkien deliberately links Tol Eressea with the legend of Avalon and as per Arthurian myth, that was where King Arthur was taken after the Battle of Camlann to be healed.

Earendil freely wandered around, making his way alone all the way to Tirion and wasn't instantly killed or burned out, so it doesn't seem like Frodo/Sam would have to be immediately confined to Tol Eressea for the rest of their lives. There's also the question of how time flows and how it's perceived in Valinor, if it flows at all. Even in Lothlorien Frodo and his friends were confused about the passage of time, and Legolas said "Time does not tarry ever, but change and growth is not in all things and places alike."

Earendil was a Half-elf, remember.

Tol Eressea was by all accounts very beautiful, so I don't see why you'd think of living there as being 'confined'. And time still flowed in the Undying Lands as they were part of Arda. What was happening in Lothlorien was the power of the Ring Galadriel wore, to stave off the effects of the passage of time (i.e. it was antientropic), but that was deeply unnatural. The One Ring did the same thing, to cause Gollum and Bilbo to live past their natural lifespans. And you may remember that Gandalf said that mortals wouldn't really get more life that way, it would in effect stretch out what life they had so that it would end up being just miserable weariness.

I don't think Tolkien had it in mind that Frodo sailed away and very quickly died in Valinor- otherwise it would be disturbing and morbid for Sam to finally arrive after all that span of years only to be alone because Frodo had already died.

All the more reason to think that Frodo was living somewhere more tolerable for mortals, then. I don't think any mortal could cope mentally for long with a place so extremely mythic in character as Valinor.

[LagunaD2]

I find your explanation somewhat plausible, though not entirely convincing.

But this is just incorrect:

[...] Valinor was intended for the Elves, it was part of Arda and so provided a place for them to go, still bound to the world because that was their fate.

Valinor was created as a sort of stronghold for the Valar against Melkor, long before the elves awoke. There was initially nothing metaphysically special about it, except for the fact that the Valar spent most of their time there. When the elves did awaken, the Valar decided on their own (it wasn't Eru's suggestion or bidding) to bring the them there to keep them safe from Melkor too. The Valar saw no problem in the Children of Illuvatar residing among them, but later (for no reason that I can see) decided to deny Men the same opportunity.

Your "too intense" explanation is also a bit contradictory, since if Tol Eressea was a place Frodo could tolerate and find peace in, Numenorians could have done so too. And yet they were banned.

There's no indication that anything untoward occurred to the invading Numenorian host who sailed past Tol Eressea and landed in Valinor itself, either, until Illuvatar smote them and broke the world.

Finally, any explanation involving the Gift of Men being a reason seems fatally flawed. What Eru bestowed, no Ainu could take away, even if they willed it.

[Radhruin_EU]

Valinor was created as a sort of stronghold for the Valar against Melkor, long before the elves awoke. There was initially nothing metaphysically special about it, except for the fact that the Valar spent most of their time there.

The reason there was nothing initially metaphysically special about it was that the Valar lived somewhere else (Almaren) until that was destroyed when Melkor threw down the Lamps. But as soon as the Valar went to live in Valinor the place became exceedingly special: 'it was blessed, for the Deathless dwelt there, and there naught faded or withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land, nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hallowed.' (Silmarillion, 'Of the Beginning of Days').

When I said that Valinor was intended for the Elves I was referring to how the Valar set aside 'a land and a dwelling-place' (Eldamar) specifically for them, and made other changes with them in mind. The decision the Valar made was to overthrow and capture Melkor in order to save the Elves, and having done that they decided that they wanted to summon them to Valinor, both for their safety and because they loved their beauty and wanted their company. Iluvatar had made the Elves to be 'more like in nature to the Ainur' and because of that they could benefit from being in Valinor. Men, on the other hand (who hadn't awoken yet) were always intended to live brief lives in the world.

Your "too intense" explanation is also a bit contradictory, since if Tol Eressea was a place Frodo could tolerate and find peace in, Numenorians could have done so too. And yet they were banned.

Because they weren't 'meant' to be there. It wasn't the will of Iluvatar, because their fate lay elsewhere. Frodo gets an exception because it would hardly have been fair or just to leave him to suffer and die in Middle-earth after what he'd done, so they let him go there to be healed so that he could at least live out the rest of his life in peace. The Numenoreans hadn't done anything to deserve that sort of special favour so of course they weren't welcome.

There's no indication that anything untoward occurred to the invading Numenorian host who sailed past Tol Eressea and landed in Valinor itself, either, until Illuvatar smote them and broke the world.

Nobody said it would frazzle them straight away (where did you get that notion from?), the line was that 'there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast'. So not only would being there not make them deathless, the place would be too much for them so they'd be worse off than if they'd stayed at home.

Finally, any explanation involving the Gift of Men being a reason seems fatally flawed. What Eru bestowed, no Ainu could take away, even if they willed it.

It was because of the Gift of Men that Aman couldn't be their home as it could for Elves. Again, that's what the Messengers of the Valar told the Numenoreans: '...your home is not here, neither in the Land of Aman nor anywhere within the Circles of the World. And the Doom of Men, that they should depart, was at first a gift of Iluvatar.' And they went on to explain that Men were afraid of death because being under the shadow of Morgoth had put that fear in their hearts, but they really shouldn't be.

[LagunaD2]

The reason there was nothing initially metaphysically special about it was that the Valar lived somewhere else (Almaren) until that was destroyed when Melkor threw down the Lamps. But as soon as the Valar went to live in Valinor the place became exceedingly special: 'it was blessed, for the Deathless dwelt there, and there naught faded or withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land, nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hallowed.' (Silmarillion, 'Of the Beginning of Days').

Basically how all of Arda would have been, if not for Melkor's debasements.

When I said that Valinor was intended for the Elves I was referring to how the Valar set aside 'a land and a dwelling-place' (Eldamar) specifically for them, and made other changes with them in mind. The decision the Valar made was to overthrow and capture Melkor in order to save the Elves, and having done that they decided that they wanted to summon them to Valinor, both for their safety and because they loved their beauty and wanted their company. Iluvatar had made the Elves to be 'more like in nature to the Ainur' and because of that they could benefit from being in Valinor. Men, on the other hand (who hadn't awoken yet) were always intended to live brief lives in the world.

But it is established that dwelling in Valinor would not have changed men's mortality.

Because they weren't 'meant' to be there. It wasn't the will of Iluvatar, because their fate lay elsewhere. Frodo gets an exception because it would hardly have been fair or just to leave him to suffer and die in Middle-earth after what he'd done, so they let him go there to be healed so that he could at least live out the rest of his life in peace. The Numenoreans hadn't done anything to deserve that sort of special favour so of course they weren't welcome.

Frodo wasn't the only one who was welcomed. All Bilbo did, basically, was find a ring in the dark, and later give it away. I think there were Edain and Numenorians with at least as good a claim, based on fighting Melkor, and eventually Sauron.

Even a foul and disgusting Dorf simpleton was let in!

Nobody said it would frazzle them straight away (where did you get that notion from?), the line was that 'there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast'. So not only would being there not make them deathless, the place would be too much for them so they'd be worse off than if they'd stayed at home.

Moths that approach a flame are incinerated instantly. Your metaphor, not mine.

It was because of the Gift of Men that Aman couldn't be their home as it could for Elves. Again, that's what the Messengers of the Valar told the Numenoreans: '...your home is not here, neither in the Land of Aman nor anywhere within the Circles of the World. And the Doom of Men, that they should depart, was at first a gift of Iluvatar.' And they went on to explain that Men were afraid of death because being under the shadow of Morgoth had put that fear in their hearts, but they really shouldn't be.

Your argument here seems illogical. If there was no home for Men anywhere in the world, then Valinor would have been no less "home" than Numenor, Gondor, Bree or anywhere else they lived out their lives.

[Radhruin_EU]

But it is established that dwelling in Valinor would not have changed men's mortality.

That's neither here nor there. It's simply not meant for them. Hallowed ground and all that. Mortals not wanted.

Frodo wasn't the only one who was welcomed. All Bilbo did, basically, was find a ring in the dark, and later give it away. I think there were Edain and Numenorians with at least as good a claim, based on fighting Melkor, and eventually Sauron.

The Ring-bearers all got the same deal. Go figure. Also, the Edain did get a reward, they were blessed by the Valar after the War of Wrath and their kids became the Numenoreans. Except that didn't turn out too well in the end, did it? Also, the Gift of Men is kind of meant to be its own reward, as in Men get to go to a better place when they die (it's super obvious what Tolkien's hinting at there).

Moths that approach a flame are incinerated instantly. Your metaphor, not mine.

Tolkien's metaphor, not mine! It said light, not flame. Like a moth bumping up against a lantern where it's bright and hot probably isn't having a good time.

Your argument here seems illogical. If there was no home for Men anywhere in the world, then Valinor would have been no less "home" than Numenor, Gondor, Bree or anywhere else they lived out their lives.

You've missed the point: Eldamar was the Elves' intended home (an alternative name for it is Elvenhome) where they could dwell all but forever. The equivalent intended forever home for Men, after they died, was somewhere beyond the world so there was no point them looking to Valinor for that. It wasn't meant for them, they wouldn't benefit from being there (if anything they'd suffer), and all they would do would be to disturb the hallowed peace of the place (and then die anyway and make the place look untidy) so they weren't wanted there.

[LagunaD2]

You've missed the point: Eldamar was the Elves' intended home (an alternative name for it is Elvenhome) where they could dwell all but forever.

You keep saying this, but it's just not the case.

If it were their "intended" home, why did they awaken half-way across the world, and have to make a long and arduous journey to get there?

The idea of elves settling in Valinor was an emergency plan that the Valar came up with in a moment of panic. And then, after a few ages, they decided it was a good idea to give Melkor the run of the place too. How'd that work out?

Melkor: welcome

Feanor the Kin-Slayer: welcome

Hurin, Elendil, Aragorn, Eowyn, Faramir, etc: go pound sand

[Radhruin_EU]

You keep saying this, but it's just not the case.

It became their intended home once Melkor had messed with the world, so for any time after that it *was* the case,

Melkor wasn't welcomed to Valinor, he was brought there in chains and spent a long, long time being held prisoner in the Halls of Mandos. Sure they let him out eventually but that was to give him a fair chance to redeem himself and he was hardly welcomed even then. Feanor wasn't really 'welcome' either, he went to the Halls of Mandos and hadn't been seen since so as far as anyone knew, he was still in there. Obviously Namo would know but he wasn't saying.

Hurin, Elendil, Aragorn, Eowyn, Faramir, etc: go pound sand

Okay, one more time: the fate of Men after they died was to leave the world, because that was the will of Iluvatar. Wherever they went was supposed to be better because it was truly eternal, whereas Valinor would only exist as long as the world lasted.

[LagunaD2]

Okay, one more time: the fate of Men after they died was to leave the world, because that was the will of Iluvatar. Wherever they went was supposed to be better because it was truly eternal, whereas Valinor would only exist as long as the world lasted.

One more time: I'm talking about *before* they died.

[Radhruin_EU]

One more time: I'm talking about *before* they died.

Men were supposed to willingly accept the gift of death. Going to Valinor wouldn't forestall their death and would be unbearable for them after a time because it was just too much, so bright and impossibly beautiful that it'd be terrifying (with a constant feeling that the place was hallowed and unearthly and they didn't belong there - that was so strong that it nearly put off Ar-Pharazon from setting foot there). It's the old thing about how men aren't supposed to dwell in the land of the gods, that it's not their appointed place. So ultimately Men just have to accept the will of Iluvatar and deal with it.

[LagunaD2]

Men were supposed to willingly accept the gift of death. Going to Valinor wouldn't forestall their death and would be unbearable for them after a time because it was just too much, so bright and impossibly beautiful that it'd be terrifying (with a constant feeling that the place was hallowed and unearthly and they didn't belong there - that was so strong that it nearly put off Ar-Pharazon from setting foot there). It's the old thing about how men aren't supposed to dwell in the land of the gods, that it's not their appointed place. So ultimately Men just have to accept the will of Iluvatar and deal with it.

Thanks for the discussion. Your explanation is probably the best available, but I still don't find it entirely convincing.

[Dulco_Brandywine]

as u all discuss with lore, m going to provide my thought:

time and space are for mortal, even they can live longer, they have an end, and while there is no such thing for inmortal. Thus even some ring bearer would be allowed to go to valinor, the undying land, their body would annihilate/ vanish (not rot), only so, they can communicate and 'live". Without the physical body, there is no pain from the morgul blade, so it's "cured".

just ravings after some wine and 3 hours sleeping.