The State of the Captain

[Joedangod]

If you don't think it's counter intuitive to use the skill that is unlocked by consuming a battle state only when you are back in that state I don't really know what to tell you.

I mean that's not quite how it works. Again you open the states, and then just maintain them. This only gets screwed up because the players involved don't understand the state system at all and aren't tracking it. If you don't have visibility on this stuff you're not going to know how to handle it. That problem is something that can be solved fairly easily by just giving a UI element similar to RK attunement or warden gambits that tracks combat states. The top tier players are already running such UI elements, whether it be from Auras, Prime, or Gibberish.

It's pretty easy to understand, people are just stuck doing it blindfolded because they aren't really aware of any other option. Just give them a proper class resource display and solve it.

[WeirdJedi]

I mean that's not quite how it works. Again you open the states, and then just maintain them. This only gets screwed up because the players involved don't understand the state system at all and aren't tracking it.

A part of that is because when people see something become available after using a skill, they automatically think it is something that they should pursue. Most of the time, I don't pay attention or care enough to optimize my rotation. However, I sort of laughed when someone used a Valar for a tanking captain and then mentioned to me, "If Hardened State reduces damage, why would anyone use Blade of Elendil when it removes the buff?" I didn't really have a response to that since our shout is the only thing that starts the rotation and it takes the same 15 seconds as the hardened state duration. The only thing I could think of is if it was used for an emergency taunt.

[savetheroadtodoriath]

I mean that's not quite how it works. Again you open the states, and then just maintain them. This only gets screwed up because the players involved don't understand the state system at all and aren't tracking it. If you don't have visibility on this stuff you're not going to know how to handle it. That problem is something that can be solved fairly easily by just giving a UI element similar to RK attunement or warden gambits that tracks combat states. The top tier players are already running such UI elements, whether it be from Auras, Prime, or Gibberish.

It's pretty easy to understand, people are just stuck doing it blindfolded because they aren't really aware of any other option. Just give them a proper class resource display and solve it.

I would say needing 3rd party addons to track these things is just another argument that the design is counter intuitive.

And even if you are tracking them, and I am, you're still waiting to use unlocked attacks that consume Battle Readied in Red or Hardened in Yellow/Blue until you can immediately unlock the states again, consider this how the actual attacks and their related chain unlocks are completely irrelevant compared to just maintaining the states that let you use them, I don't know how anyone could call this anything but stupid design.

A part of that is because when people see something become available after using a skill, they automatically think it is something that they should pursue. Most of the time, I don't pay attention or care enough to optimize my rotation. However, I sort of laughed when someone used a Valar for a tanking captain and then mentioned to me, "If Hardened State reduces damage, why would anyone use Blade of Elendil when it removes the buff?" I didn't really have a response to that since our shout is the only thing that starts the rotation and it takes the same 15 seconds as the hardened state duration. The only thing I could think of is if it was used for an emergency taunt.

Precisely this, Blade of Elendil is laughably bad and there's almost zero reason to ever use it in Yellow but at the same time it's the "finisher" or "ultimate" of our chain. But its only real impact is a liability to those who aren't paying precise attention to timers. The actual damage and effect of the skill are nugatory.

[Mirnir]

Hello Captains! I'd like to start a discussion about the current state of the captain class. Whether you've been playing captain for years, or only recently took up banners to support and inspire your allies, how do you feel about your abilities right now? Do you wear the heaviest armour and stand directly in the face of evil, or do you anchor your allies, supporting them with words of inspiration when lights grow dim? Do you wish it were easier to encourage one specific ally in times of great need? Do you feel the strength of Elendil in your veins when striking servants of the enemy? What would you improve about this iconic class?

I still hope for the return of Blue Cappy as a desirable spec in groups. It's been too long!
And I don't think it's really all that far away from being useful. The main issue is that Oathbreakers is out of reach, and dps buffs are what most groups want from a cappy these days.

My suggestions:
Make a reduced version of Oathies as an accessible red line trait, improvable to its full power with the existing capstone trait
Add a high tier Blue line trait that further improves the healing of Words of Courage, and makes it give all its healing up front, to make it a useful spot heal - something cappy doesn't really have
Add an incoming heal % buff to blue banner
Move Shield of the Dunedain to Blue. Since it lost the ability to be used on self, it seems a little odd in yellow

[savetheroadtodoriath]

Move Shield of the Dunedain to Blue. Since it lost the ability to be used on self, it seems a little odd in yellow

This would be nice.

[Zaheer]

Captain has the worst burst damage in the game, so. You're going to do far more damage and hit far more targets and faster just with Warden's Surety of Death/Deso/Brink than a comparable rotation on Captain.

Captains have 2 AoEs, they both do low damage and have low numbers of targets. Sure it's slow...but there's no burst here lol.

I'm talking image of what it once was, you don't seem to know what its identity was. Allowing a ST dmg class to go AOE only blurs the identity more and this should not happen.

[savetheroadtodoriath]

I'm talking image of what it once was, you don't seem to know what its identity was. Allowing a ST dmg class to go AOE only blurs the identity more and this should not happen.

There is no such thing as a single target class anymore and if Captain was the only one then it'd be fundamentally gimped compared to every other class, which is obviously undesirable.
And even in the past Captain was not the single target class, we always had AoE, Burg was 99% ST though and it compensated for it by having massive DPS, which Captain never ever had.

[auximenes]

CPT's lost some of their flavour when they normalised the weapon speeds. The slow, sort of clunky animations and skill plays were intended because CPT's were typically using a slow halberd or 2H sword and when weapon speeds were part of the damage equation the slower the weapon the harder it hit, combine the hard hit with crits/dev crits and they really hit hard, just not often. It's just not the same after losing the weapon speed factor.

[savetheroadtodoriath]

CPT's lost some of their flavour when they normalised the weapon speeds. The slow, sort of clunky animations and skill plays were intended because CPT's were typically using a slow halberd or 2H sword and when weapon speeds were part of the damage equation the slower the weapon the harder it hit, combine the hard hit with crits/dev crits and they really hit hard, just not often. It's just not the same after losing the weapon speed factor.

It'd be nice if Halberds had a reason to exist again. A significant class weapon passive to Halberds would be great, as is everyone uses swords nowadays which removes an interesting part of gearing and makes us generic like everyone else.

I want to equip my Captain's Arm cosmetic again, it was so iconic.

[Zaheer]

There is no such thing as a single target class anymore and if Captain was the only one then it'd be fundamentally gimped compared to every other class, which is obviously undesirable.
And even in the past Captain was not the single target class, we always had AoE, Burg was 99% ST though and it compensated for it by having massive DPS, which Captain never ever had.

please stop talking bs, I play captain since MoM release and I know it was never about AoE, we never had serious strong direct AoE. The redline captain has always been about burst. The class should remain ST, if you go change it up into AOE you damage its identity.

You want to stay Battle Readied in Red.
You want to stay Battle Hardened in Blue.

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Ite...g_Healing_Buff
https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Ite...ed_Damage_Buff

I never use Pressing Attack or Devastating Blow on Captain in Red unless I have Battle Shout or Shadow's Lament to immediately get back into Battle Readied stance, anything less is seriously gimping your damage, which is already low enough as it is.
It's very weird and counter intuitive gameplay, like you don't want to use Blade of Elendil which is unlocked by consuming Battle Readied...unless you are in Battle Readied.

this is false, battle states operate indefinitely, it doesn't matter what line you're in, you use them regardless.

[Belechael]

I read a lot of things about what people want about the captain that they can find IN OTHER CLASSES. So, problem solved!

The captain class has the feature of the Battle States. This has been from the start what makes the captain unique. In order to do things to their max, or at all, you need to cycle through your actions in a specific way.

I am not saying that this is a perfect system, and it can be improved, with lets say another action to start the cycle in the tanking line, as many have said so far. I don't forget that the minstrel's original system has been scrapped since a lot time ago, however the captain system is still with us, for what it's worth.

If people want another system to differentiate captain play from other classes then this is perfectly fine with me, AS LONG AS THEY REMAIN UNIQUE.

Thank you.

[savetheroadtodoriath]

please stop talking bs, I play captain since MoM release and I know it was never about AoE, we never had serious strong direct AoE. The redline captain has always been about burst. The class should remain ST, if you go change it up into AOE you damage its identity.




this is false, battle states operate indefinitely, it doesn't matter what line you're in, you use them regardless.

You're wrong but ok. I can see you're not well, you barely seem able to read.

[-Aran-]

You want to stay Battle Readied in Red.
You want to stay Battle Hardened in Blue.

I never use Pressing Attack or Devastating Blow on Captain in Red unless I have Battle Shout or Shadow's Lament to immediately get back into Battle Readied stance, anything less is seriously gimping your damage, which is already low enough as it is.

I disagree, if your rotation is correct there is no point in waiting in B-R. In fact, waiting in B-H will often be much more beneficial in both PvMP and PvE.



The "Melee Skills Critical Damage" you gain from B-H with the MoW rotation will compensate for the damage you lost from B-R.
*If you share the rotation you use, I can help more clearly.*

I am also against this idea of AoE. I think the captain has enough AoE for his current situation. I don't want it to be transformed into a ridiculous AoE class with wrong feedbacks.

[savetheroadtodoriath]

Even in the best case scenario 30% crit mag a little over 35% of the time is not better than 40% more mastery/offence, especially since the latter benefits both crits and non crits. The math here should be obvious. Ideally in red you'd want to be in both states but that's not sustainable so yes in fact you do want to wait in Battle Readied. Go ahead and post an impressive parse video if you want to prove me wrong, I'm open to the possibility.

And even discounting the particulars here, let's say you're right and Battle Hardened does more damage. So what? You're still making the same argument, that you want to wait in a particular combat state rather than use the unlocked Blade of Elendil. This is counter intuitive and unfun design. And of course this is strictly red we're talking about, in other trait lines, particularly yellow, you wait in the state until you can immediately re-enter it every single time in your rotation.

And how can you be against more AoE? Don't you tank on Captain, you can't just rely on Elendil's Roar which has a 30s CD. Being able to hit all the trash mobs with Pressing Attack/Routing Cry is a problem because of their extremely low target counts, even with a gold tracery it tops out at 9 and 8 respectively.

[-Aran-]

Even in the best case scenario 30% crit mag a little over 35% of the time is not better than 40% more mastery/offence, especially since the latter benefits both crits and non crits. The math here should be obvious. Ideally in red you'd want to be in both states but that's not sustainable so yes in fact you do want to wait in Battle Readied. Go ahead and post an impressive parse video if you want to prove me wrong, I'm open to the possibility.

And even discounting the particulars here, let's say you're right and Battle Hardened does more damage. So what? You're still making the same argument, that you want to wait in a particular combat state rather than use the unlocked Blade of Elendil. This is counter intuitive and unfun design. And of course this is strictly red we're talking about, in other trait lines, particularly yellow, you wait in the state until you can immediately re-enter it every single time in your rotation.

And how can you be against more AoE? Don't you tank on Captain, you can't just rely on Elendil's Roar which has a 30s CD. Being able to hit all the trash mobs with Pressing Attack/Routing Cry is a problem because of their extremely low target counts, even with a gold tracery it tops out at 9 and 8 respectively.

I'm not saying that B-H does more damage. I say that B-H must be active before SL for a continuous and dynamic rotation. Using the SL(MoW) Rotation with B-R will mean you wasted 1 DB/PA and this will cause you to lose more DPS in total for the extra damage you gain.
Also, BoE should always be used just before DB/PA. Only when MoW is active BoE is bypassed and DB/PA can be used.

[ertr]

Much of this is probaly going to echo what other people have already said, but here we go anyway.

I like the Captain and have it as my main character, but the class has its problems.


A couple of recent(ish) changes to the Captain really reduced QoL.
* The new 5 minute duration on Motivating Speech is highly annoying. You have to keep remembering to refresh it from time to time during longer combats.
* The reduction in range for Noble Mark sucks. It is one of the few ranged abilities Captains have, and was very useful for pulling mobs. It was apparently reduced due to being considered too good or something - but I have not heard of any player thinking it was too good. On the contrary, Noble Mark is widely considered the weakest of the Mark abilities.

It would be nice if the Yellow line had a "big" opener attack like Shadow's Lament in Red or Valiant Strike in Blue.

Tanking captains have a hard time keeping aggro against multiple foes due to the low number of AoE abilities. Would be nice if there were at least more ways of generating AoE aggro, even if not AoE damage.


I would love for Captains to be able to use bows just like Guardians or Champions. Useful for pulling, and useful for doing at least some damage with auto-attacks when (for whatever reason) you are unable to engage in melee. I also would like it for purely aesthetic reasons.
(Now someone will say something about our banners already taking up the ranged weapon slot. I have an idea for that, but it is probably trickier to implement than it sounds: Make captains have banners as their Legendary Item instead of emblems (adjusting stats on banners as appropriate). That way you free up the ranged slot for bows. Banners are kind of iconic for captains, unlike emblems.)

Somewhat improved heralds would be nice. Especially the Archer who is supposed to do more damage than the other Heralds, but the difference in damage is too small to matter.

[Joedangod]

I would say needing 3rd party addons to track these things is just another argument that the design is counter intuitive.

...no, it's an argument that the base UI which was built ~2007 is probably in dire need of an update to 2022 standards.

And even if you are tracking them, and I am, you're still waiting to use unlocked attacks that consume Battle Readied in Red or Hardened in Yellow/Blue until you can immediately unlock the states again, consider this how the actual attacks and their related chain unlocks are completely irrelevant compared to just maintaining the states that let you use them, I don't know how anyone could call this anything but stupid design.

Because it flows exceptionally well. Proper battle-state management is the core aspect of the class, removing that from Captain is akin to removing gambits from Warden. It is the mechanic the class is founded upon.

Battle-states work fine in red/blue. They just fall flat in yellow because you can't cycle properly due to lack of openers.

[Thurinuor]

I am playing my captain since 13 years now and I like this class a lot. But it has some problems:

- The captain is a very slow class. Doing deeds (kill 300 orcs) takes ages
- The Strength of Morale (race of man) is a joke. It heals 3000 morale. I have more than a million. So this trait is completely useless - and its cooldown is an hour!
- Since the last revamp the animation of Shadow's Lament doen't fit to the moment where damage is made (you make instantly damage but the animation need 2 seconds to finish, this feels wrong and does not make fun)
- Heralds are moving very crazy when they have to speed up to follow me
- The captain once was a good healer but this is not the case anymore
- Motivating Speech has a cd of 5 minutes - this is terrible, please give it at least 10 or 15 minutes
- Telling mark only increases the damage to 3% - it maks more sense to use a regular skill instead of this one
- It's really annoying that every party member has to be called solo with the summoning horn. It would great to have an interface where you can choose the players you want to call (it takes ages to summon 12 or 24 players!)

I am looking forward to positive changes of the captain. Thanks a lot!

[NailFelagund]

A lot of interesting points have already been raised, and I would like that more experienced cappies make a comprehensive list of all the fixes for the 3 specs, but here is my impression:

1. Increase DPS in red line. Speed up the animations.
2. Improve the healing potency in blue line.
3. Make yellow cappy a bit more fun to play.
4. Rework the pets. (I personally would get rid of them, but there are people who enjoy playing with a pet, I suppose).
5. Rework shouting skills animations (it's fluff, I know, but they are all kinda same).

Now, obviously, these are some general statements and I don't pretend to know what exactly the best way is to improve the 3 specs, so I would like the pros to join the convo and perhaps expand on this.

[Cafat]

Hi,

Apart from the blue line anomalies: https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...ling-anomalies

Would be nice to know what is the vision behind the captain roles and what we should expect from them.


The thing is, yellow line is able to fulfill a "core role" as a tank, while it provides great support for the group, this is unfortunately not true for red and blue.

This is a big issue which causes disappointment and really limits player experience.


In my opinion, both red and blue line should be able to fulfill its core role (dps and heal) from solo landscape to high end raids, just like yellow does as a tank.


Personally, I did enjoy playing blue, I like the theme, the mechanics and the fact that the class is a melee healer and it gets collateral dmg, the problem is that:

-several skills are still not scaled or bugged
-skill set is not in line with instance mechanics (burst heal to counter periodic, uncureable two shotting bleeds ect.)
-ST to AOE HPS proportion seems too much in favour of AOE, because of this, and the above point, in 6/12 man, tank dmg and random burst on dps gets out of hand even on mid tier.

I don't think that a class rework is needed here, just some fixes and some tweeks (WoC could be a candidate for ST burst).

[Thruili]

The biggest problem with Captains I see right now is their dps. Questing is extreme slow and tedious, doing dailies in Gundabad is a chore where you got killed faster by the mobs than you could kill them in red. Interestingly if you use tank gear, you could survive several mobs, but in dps gear you were pretty much dead. This has changed some weeks ago, when I had the impression, the battles in Gundabad were nerfed though it was never stated in the patch notes.
Even in raids other classes do like four times the dps of a red Captain. I could just as well be a cheerleader at the sideline to support my fellowship/raid, as my dps is way too low. It should be about doubled, so a red Captain can support the raid not only with buffs/rezzes but also some nice off dps, while also making questing more fun.
Tanking for the most part is fine, though I wonder whether a tank needs access to a double rezz.
I once tried blue line and failed healing miserably with decent gear, while a badly equipped Minstrel healed so much better. Maybe I am bad at healing with a Captain, but I feel the heals could be improved especially in blue.

Apart from class imbalance I would also like to see some changes to a Captain's buffs:
Telling Mark should be restored to 10%, as 5% is really low compared to a Warden's Marked/Diminished Target, especially against highly armoured mobs (50% mitigations) where Wardens can effectively increase incoming damage by about 20% to 40% (in yellow with double Marked Target).
Relentless Attack only gives 79200 Critical Rating and 37800 Mastery which corresponds to about 1% critical chance and 3% damage. Compared to To Arms with 25% and Standard of War with 20% (or Anthem of War with 12%), this buff is really weak. I would like to see it give a good buff to critical chance which goes over cap.
Blade-brother's Call is a nice damage buff but the uptime could be longer.

For the yellow Captain:
In Harm's Way can no longer used in conjunction with Last Stand as the durations no longer match without risking the Captain's life. The incoming damage on the Captain during in Harm's Way should be way more reduced while increasing the cooldown, or the durations of both skills should be adjusted to save the Captain from dying.
I would prefer some defensive stats on Watchful Shield-brother like mitigations instead of Mastery.
Shield of the Dúnedain should be available on red and even more blue line, as a Captain cannot use it on him- or herself. Without self-targeted usage, it is useless as a yellow capstone skill.
Improved Sure Strike's tooltip should be corrected to buffing Physical Mitigation instead of Armour Value.

Cry of Vengeance should not be usable while jumping/being kicked just like Motivating Speech and Muster Courage require standing/running on the ground to prevent players from being resurrected on the entrance of the instance and missing the rest of the fight.

[savetheroadtodoriath]

...no, it's an argument that the base UI which was built ~2007 is probably in dire need of an update to 2022 standards.



Because it flows exceptionally well. Proper battle-state management is the core aspect of the class, removing that from Captain is akin to removing gambits from Warden. It is the mechanic the class is founded upon.

Battle-states work fine in red/blue. They just fall flat in yellow because you can't cycle properly due to lack of openers.

No-one said to remove battle states, only to make skills like Blade of Elendil more worthwhile. You'll also note asking for another way to get into Battle Readied in Yellow is like the first thing I asked for.

So many bored people on this forum who just like to be disagreeable, lol.

[Joedangod]

No-one said to remove battle states, only to make skills like Blade of Elendil more worthwhile. You'll also note asking for another way to get into Battle Readied in Yellow is like the first thing I asked for.

And nobody said that anyone said to remove battle-states. The quoted post clearly said "battle-state management". Holding open both states as we currently do shouldn't go away, it's the core mechanic of the rotation for blue/red and it works very well as is. You started off with complaining that you don't consume states until you can re-enter them, that's the bit we like doing.

[auximenes]

Please, whatever Dev attention CPT's eventually get, don't remove heralds. They are a core to the CPT identity. Heralds absolutely need some tweaking, their pathing especially.

[Joedangod]

Please, whatever Dev attention CPT's eventually get, don't remove heralds. They are a core to the CPT identity. Heralds absolutely need some tweaking, their pathing especially.

Don't remove them sure, but making them optional by tying the mit aura to the captain itself and letting us use the heal independently of a herald would be great. Bad pet AI is just frustrating to deal with.