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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simba- View Post
    Nobody is forcing you to trait Seize the moment if you don't enjoy it my dude. Just act like it's not there or play another class?
    Nobody is forcing me to swap stances either, but I'm not interested in playing a class to 80% of its potential. And I do play another class, but the moment warden looks remotely playable again, I'll be right back on it.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osglinthor View Post
    I said it should be encouraged, only reason it isnt "dancing" now as you say is because only 2 dots are usefull in ranged stance>adroit lasts long enough> and momentum buff isnt worth doing twice in rotation(it can be for some extremly rare aoe fights).

    Its competly irelevent what their itention with stm was when they made it. Its how its used now. If it doesnt change your playstyle then all I can say is you are mediocre warden no offense.
    It changes your rotation drasticly and makes it far more interactive where you are swaping order of bleeds depending on procs> choosing between refreshing existing mighty blow/powert attack and choosing when to go for next proc based on masteries CD. Far superior rotation than cycle trough borderline same rotation/masteries use red line has and have offered for ages.
    And would only be made better with proposed changes. I dont care if you dont like it. I am simply stating a fact what would be better for class concerning its DPS role.
    I'm sorry if you can't admire the beauty in simplicity and intuitiveness. You are down the path of a never ending chase for "complex" (read: convoluted) gameplay. Best of luck to you fella.

  3. #53
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    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carved View Post
    I'm sorry if you can't admire the beauty in simplicity and intuitiveness. You are down the path of a never ending chase for "complex" (read: convoluted) gameplay. Best of luck to you fella.
    Never ending chase? I doubt, considering it would only need few changes already sugested to finish it off. And especialy considering class warden was based off is already doing fine job at that. But if you enjoy simplicity you are welcome to continue playing any other class that isnt warden since warden should never be that.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simba- View Post
    It's 45 second cooldown with teal tracery. Are you sure we are playing the same game?
    Woops, sorry you are correct. Please disregard my comments about that skill.

    I'm returning to the game after a long break, so I'm not quite familiar with the new legendary items system and changes to skills that have occurred. I recall it being 2 minutes in the past and was using the information in this page: https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Warden_Skills to see that it was 2 minutes, but it seems like that Wiki page also needs an update.

  5. #55
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    I got into the Warden way back in early Mines of Moria. We had a Warden in my kin and the way he played the class and the way it operated always seemed so different and fascinating to me. I loved the idea that the class seemed adept at melee and ranged, at bleeding and healing, etc. I later bought MoM, rolled a Warden, and it became not only my main, but my favorite class in any MMO. I've been a die-hard blue line Warden since MoM, and continue to roll around in Blue because I chose to believe that it will return to its former greatness. I agree with most of what has been said thus far in the thread, but would also posit the following:

    1.) Defiant Challenge. This was our original (Actually useful!) panic-button. In its glory days it set mitigations to 90%, activated a damage reflect, and force-taunted an area for 10 seconds, at the cost of a long cooldown. I liked this version of it far more than what we have now. The current Defiant Challenge has made much of the original art of tanking obsolete as Defiant Challenge essentially must always be kept up for the mitigations and the aggro-lock. I guess what I'm saying is that the skill has become both mandatory and boring. A complex rotation of gambits has been replaced by a button. The old DC could prevent a raid-wipe if used cleverly as you could go from off-tank to God Mode and give the group time to recover. The new DC might need to be saved for a few more seconds to grab some adds, but generally you just need to remember to push it.

    2.) Avoidances. I would love if we could actually BPE things that matter again. I'm not sure why the game has moved so far away from one of its mechanics, but doing so has detrimentally effected Wardens disproportionately to any other class. Rather than continuing to just bandage the class with more mitigation buffs, I would really like to see BPE's fill that incoming damage gap that exist between Wardens and other tanks.

    3.) Self-Heals. Our heals need a way to scale better with more difficult/ larger content. This has always been the case to some extent, but the numerical damage differences between School/Library and T3 Raids is far larger than it ever was when the class was introduced. It used to be that Wardens were seen as slightly less good at Raids, and slightly better at 6-man content compared to Gaurds. Now? There is literally no reason to ever have a Warden tanking a raid. I personally like the idea of adding an effect to Conviction which, the more people it hits, applies a massive outgoing healing buff on the Warden. If you only hit yourself, or a 3-man, it won't do much, but if you hit 12 people it would massively increase your outgoing healing. Just a thought.

    4.) Ratings. Start phasing out +rating values and start adding +% values. It will be less work in the long-run and make the class more viable.

    5.) Damage Tanking. Originally, and for a long time, Wardens had astounding survivablity, but really couldn't kill things very well while using that survivability. I used to be able to 1v3 lower ranked Creeps in the Moors, but if they decided they just wanted to walk away, I really couldn't do much about that. I used to rush into Keeps in the Moors, straight through Creep raids, aggroing the entire Keep, and then survive for a minute or two. I didn't really accomplish anything by doing this, my Morale-Leaches and the reflect from Defiant Challenge wasn't going to kill anything, but it sure was fun to do. Drop blue-line DPS substantially, add threat leaches/generators back, and buff survivability. This is ultimately more easily balanced than trying to keep Wardens as some sort of squishy DPS tank hybrid creature.

    6.) Assailment. I love what the Yellow line has become. For years it was always just a meme. I do however, have three issues with it. First of all, it feels slow, awkward, and clunky unless you are full-red and using Adroit Maneuver, or specced Yellow. Secondly, I remember the ranged gambits actually throwing javelins once upon a time. Currently, my Warden flails his arm, evidently using The Force, and things die in response. Lastly, the Gambits in Assailment used to be more fleshed-out than they currently are. What happened to things like the damage reflect and three hits from Ranged Wall of Steel? I miss having unique effects on the old Ranged Gambits.

    7.) Gambit Chains. No one has mentioned these yet, but they would solve a lot of problems if they were fully implemented. When Gambit Chains where first thought up, they were an answer to a problem Wardens have had since inception: There was never a reason to use most tier 2 or 3 gambits. Currently though, the chain effects are not worthwhile for the time it takes to get them (or just period, really) and the system feels half finished. I would really like to see most gambits associated with a chain, and have T5 Gambits added. For instance, Shields up, Shield Mastery, and then, I dunno, Big-Boi Shield of Not Dying, or something.... Onslaught, Wall of Steel, Swingy-Swingy Slappy Spear. It's a big, big, ask, but I would really love to see it. If nothing else, the chains that do exist really need to have worthwile, useful, long-last effects, otherwise they are essentially just a slimy peeling band-aid.

    8.) The Boot. Put Daze effect back plz. I like kicking Hobbits in the face and then watching them space out for 2 seconds.

    9.) Never Surrender. In its original form, it saved us from certain death one time. Now, while its toggle-able, its unreliable... especially in raids when it is most needed.

    I think most of my other issues have been addressed by other posters in the thread, and I generally agree with what I've seen. The above are just issues I wanted to mention in addition to what has already been said.

  6. #56
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    Echoing some requests others have also raised in this thread:

    1. It would be nice if the skill "Forced March" was changed to work like the Hunter's skill "Find the Path" so that the effect of the skill is temporarily disabled while in-combat, but once out-of-combat the effect of the skill is automatically re-activated again.

    2. I would like to see Assailment Stance improved. With the +10 Range Tracery, I was hoping to try some new interesting builds and play styles on Warden in Assailment Stance. The damage in Assailment Stance feels quite low to me when compared to the damage that can be done by using red-line and "In the Fray" Stance. Perhaps damage could be increased for Assailment Stance generally, or maybe some more damage-over-time gambits could be added for Assailment Stance.

    Right now, I think the only damage-over-time gambits in Assailment Stance are Ranged Unerring Strike, Ranged Fierce Resolve and Ranged Exultation of Battle. To me these seem quite few in number when compared to the number of damage-over-time gambits available in "In the Fray" Stance.

  7. #57
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    Let me start off by saying that while Warden is my favorite class and the first one I've reached max level with, I am by no means an expert in it. I've played a lot of it over the past 4 years since switching to Brandywine, but I have only recently started doing group content in any reasonable fashion. As such, I'll mostly be leaving balance out of this, and focusing mainly on minor things I think would make warden more interesting and/or intuitive.

    Firstly, I've seen this mentioned a few times before, but I feel it's worth repeating. Warden has so many completely useless skills. When I do actually use ambush, I'd much rather follow it up with a gambit builder than critical strike, since it deals more damage in addition to making progress toward my next rotation. I think the only time I've ever purposefully used the melee offensive strike line is for the class deeds (I don't play yellow warden, so I can't really say for the ranged versions). And while potency itself is an amazing feature of the warden, I wish the gambits themselves were a bit more useful (why is the defensive strike buff a 10% proc chance when it isn't even that big to begin with?) I would love to see the warden's underused skills and gambits see some love to make them actually worth considering, whether that be through buffing what they currently do or giving them additional or different utility to make them more interesting.

    Second, I wish shield spikes had more of a use on Warden. Guardian gets a good amount of use out of shield spikes, both because of the high skill damage of their shield skills and the utility of guaranteed fortification buffs from critting in blue line. Maybe I'm missing something about how shield-spikes work on warden, but warden's shield attacks don't really do enough damage to make an additional 8% crit chance all that useful. Maybe giving a similar crit effect to warden's shield skills would help make them a bit more impactful, though I'm not sure how easy that would be without upsetting the balance of the class.

    Third, the way morale tap scaling works is kind of weird. From what I've seen (though this could be wrong), neither the damage nor healing scales with physical mastery, and healing doesn't scale with the damage dealt, which feels a bit odd for a type of skill themed around draining health from your enemies. I think there are some other weird interactions with traits and traceries, but I'm not confident enough to say anything about that. I know there might be some balance concerns to keep in mind, but giving at least a bit of scaling to the morale tap and linking the damage and healing might make them both more useful and intuitive.

    Finally, I find it weird that a class whose main stat is agility doesn't have an in combat move speed buff, and that the only tanking class that doesn't have one also happens to be the tank class whose main stat is agility. To me, agility screams not only evasion and avoidance (which the Warden has plenty of) but also nimbleness and speed. Having a way to increase the warden's speed while in combat would make them fit that fantasy of an agile frontline warrior a lot better in addition to making wardens feel like they're not missing out on yet another tool present in other tanks' arsenals.

    Overall, I find the warden to be extremely fun and unique, even if there are a lot of problems with their kit. I love both damaging and tanking on a warden, and would love to see both be viable. Just don't listen to the people calling for the defining feature of the warden to be removed :P

    -Deveson, Level 140 Warden

    EDIT: Oh, and one more thing. I don't really think Battle Memory is OP enough to require a morale cost, and with morale costs being pretty much phased out back when they removed them from LM it would be nice to see this go.
    Last edited by Solkadas; Aug 23 2022 at 08:17 PM.

  8. #58
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    Oct 2019
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    Red face Never Surrender Rework

    i played mostly Yello till 130 cap and yes i loved the stance dancing when seize the moment procc'd and hunters and RK loved me for the induction reduction.
    but i have now parked my Warden as a crafter and the shield and spear gather dust mainly because my blood pressure goes through the roof when Lag screws my gambits over

    i do not have much to add to what the more experinced players have said, so i will add what has not been mentioned yet

    Never surrender only procc'd once moral drops below 15%. but if the boss hits you for 30% of your health then it does not procc and you die

    my Suggestion: make never Surrender a clickable emergency skill where it gives a 10 sec damage preventing bubble and restores 30% ( up to 50% if a tracery were available ) moral on bubble expiry
    the cooldown could also be reduced by trait or tracery

    another change i would like to see is the Moral tap health leech increased. maybe it could be increased exponentially for every additional mob affected?

    perhaps the builders in Blue line could give a 3 sec group buff: shield gives mitigation buffs. fist gives attack speed buff and spear gives damage buff. these could tier up or down if relevant builder not used after 3 or 5 seconds.

    but most of all PLEASE KEEP YELLO WARDEN.... and fix the LAG!!

    ps...do most of you here know that yellow does not immediately mean being ranged? just as much as you can also use ranged gambits in red specc.
    Last edited by fealegwe2; Aug 24 2022 at 04:13 AM.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by fealegwe2 View Post
    ps...do most of you here know that yellow does not immediately mean being ranged? just as much as you can also use ranged gambits in red specc.
    I actually use Assailment Stance (Ranged) in red-line sometimes. Probably not ideal, but it's still pretty fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Regero View Post
    1.) Defiant Challenge. This was our original (Actually useful!) panic-button. In its glory days it set mitigations to 90%, activated a damage reflect, and force-taunted an area for 10 seconds, at the cost of a long cooldown. I liked this version of it far more than what we have now. The current Defiant Challenge has made much of the original art of tanking obsolete as Defiant Challenge essentially must always be kept up for the mitigations and the aggro-lock. I guess what I'm saying is that the skill has become both mandatory and boring. A complex rotation of gambits has been replaced by a button. The old DC could prevent a raid-wipe if used cleverly as you could go from off-tank to God Mode and give the group time to recover. The new DC might need to be saved for a few more seconds to grab some adds, but generally you just need to remember to push it.
    I would LOVE for something like the old Defiant Challenge to be added somehow. It actually required skill and some thought put into when to use that skill, because it could make the difference between surviving or dying in a fight.

    I remember being able to solo Fornost: Wraith of Fire T2C back in the day, and I think there's some videos of it and other solo instances by Gorelal/Cornwollis (not sure if he is still playing). It was both some of the most fun and great challenge I've had in any MMO. When Defiant Challenge was changed to the new version, it killed a lot of the fun of LOTRO for me.

    Maybe the old version was a bit OP, but it still would be great if a weaker version could somehow be added. The current Defiant Challenge sadly just feels like a spam whenever available skill.
    Last edited by Atomos; Aug 24 2022 at 04:57 AM.

  10. #60
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    I don't know if OnnMacMahal has a way to play the original Warden as it was with the release of the Moria expansion. But I think it would be great, if he could look at the class as it originally was as it represented what the Warden was all about most purely. That is a unique kind of agile tank, where everything (damage, healing, thread) works over time without cooldowns.
    That doesn't mean I want to go back to the old days, as there wasn't any range stance and the class had problems too. But in my opinion, looking at the original Warden would be a good start to get at the essence of the class, which should be kept in mind foremost when working on making the class a viable tank again.
    Last edited by FrasierWCrane; Aug 24 2022 at 08:50 AM.

  11. #61
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    Mar 2017
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    The #1 thing you could do to help wardens would be to fix the server lag / responsiveness. A smoothly played warden relies on executing gambits quickly and precisely.

    It's an amazing class, very unique and it's a ton of fun to play it.

    It's one of my top favorite classes in all the MMO's I've played, I have a thing for unique classes and Warden is def in the top 3.

  12. #62
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    Jun 2012
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    Wardens are fine in yellow line

    I'm a warden main for endgame raiding since lvl 130 cap and have been doing tier 5 content since that cap only doing dps.

    personally I think wardens are where they need to be, they have a higher skillfloor then most other classes and they reward the player for spending alot of time practising different gambits and rotations. expecially Yellow line with Ceize the Moment makes it a fun puzzle to figure out what bleeds to apply and what to prioritize. it gives skill expression. I think warden is not in the best spot right now due to the current raid being HEAVILY focused on ranged damage and adds rather then beefy bossfights where your bleeds will ramp up (not saying there are no phases in between addwave where this still is the case) however, right now they seem to be a supprting class to the hunters. keeping up adroit manouvre is currently your most important job next to making sure ur marked/deminished targets are up. you still deal a hefty amount of damage if played correctly though some burst damage increases would be a quility of life change.

    Personally I also like that you have to swap between ranged and melee gambits so that the rotation doesn't feel verry static, even if redline still is a entirely set rotation.

    for blue line; YEH its bad mmmkay, they aren't tanky enough from the getgo and requieres a long setup before you have your mitigations gambits back up. i would like if these gambits would last longer so that during tanking next to doing those mit gambits you can also throw in some extra healing ones, wich suck hard. tho only make those longer durations exclusvie to blue so that the dps wardens will not become gigatanks with damage. that would suck on the ettenmoors balance.

    some skills I think requiere a rework:
    Fire at will: this skill is basicly useless as a trait and to use. it has a long animation and it barely gives a bonus, +% damage for X seconds would make it worthwhile to use for a burnphase.
    Dodge this: does less damage then your accidentily hit "theboot" not worth using at all
    wages of fear: this thing deals no damage, even from behind. yeah it can be used to proc Seize the moment, but it would really waste your time
    Shield piercer: the boss never blocks anymore so having a -blockchance is bad. if were to reduce some other kind of mitigation it would be worth to use, in this state don'T even put it on your skillbar.
    Javalin of deadly force: fun concept, though hard to actually use to full extent. don't trait this.
    Snap shot: any of the snapshots procs in yellow line are kinda useless and nerfing your damage, a cool way to change this would be a snapshot and then choose of completed gambits. How cool would it be to use a snapshot: wardens triumpf since otherwise you don't use it, or like resolation, unerring strike, conviction, restoration. that would be really dope to make snap shots impactfull, yet not overpowered.

    OH and this is for all the warden mains!:

    People want a warden SPEAR USE damage trait/passive! alot of people prefer the animations of the spear, and changes things up from the sword use that is on competetive players.
    a spear passive for warden would make sense since the gambit builders say spear aswell. i know redline gives a little more bleedchance on spearuse, but thats not enough and not for all lines.


    pleaseee make spear use best in slot for damage and swords for defensive since that gives parrychance :-)

    glad to see u back Orion, take care

    Kind regards,

    Alesar, warden of Landroval

  13. #63
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    Sep 2021
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    I love the uniqueness of the gambit system. Especially the Yellow line is very enjoyable to play for me. Red and blue line are fine too but not as viable in a raidsetting as Yellow I feel like. That is fine for me because not every class needs to have 3 perfectly balanced traittrees and for questing, 3-6 man instances and low tier raids all lines are good enough to play. Since I played red warden in the past and right now yellow warden a lot in t3+ raids I would like to give some suggestions on how to balance things out from that perspective without having to reinvent the class. Though I don't know in which direction the class is supposed to go according to the developers, I personally would like to see the warden as a half DPS half damage support class. I feel like the class should shine DPS wise when there is a big target and your bleeds can tick for a long time but not in other scenarios. For that the warden needs some more bleed dmg because equally skilled hunters, champs and brawlers do ~20%-30% more even in that scenario.
    As others also mentioned "Fire at Will" is not in a good state right now. I would rather give the skill a percentage based masterie bonus instead of a flat number that no fellowship member can work with since it's not permanent.
    If the warden should function more like a supporter then consider making the induction buff of "Adroit Manoeuvre" a raidwide buff instead of a fellowship one.
    "Wages of Fear" is also not in a good place right now. Maybe increasing the positional damage bonus would make it worth using or connecting it with an in-fight movementspeed if you hit someone from behind.
    Warden traceries are a topic on it's own so I won't go into that here but giving them some love and attention is defenetly necessary.
    Overall I love the class and don't want to see its core identety (gambits) reworked like some of you suggested.

  14. #64
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    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramor-1 View Post

    I personally would like to see the warden as a half DPS half damage support class. I feel like the class should shine DPS wise when there is a big target and your bleeds can tick for a long time but not in other scenarios. For that the warden needs some more bleed dmg because equally skilled hunters, champs and brawlers do ~20%-30% more even in that scenario.
    Heavly disagree with this. Considering in current raid its borderline like that and it feels like ####. Not being able to brust at all leaves you out of so much content and is just terrible design as we can see. Where one is being picked up mostly for marked/diminished and induction buff. Class (dps spec obv) should be toned more towards DPS. And there are already ways to implement this just by changing existing gambits values mostly. Could open up room for ST/AoE brust easly and it doesnt have to be as strong as other classes provided their sustained ST/AoE then isnt as strong as wardens.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by alearon View Post

    personally I think wardens are where they need to be, they have a higher skillfloor then most other classes and they reward the player for spending alot of time practising different gambits and rotations. expecially Yellow line with Ceize the Moment makes it a fun puzzle to figure out what bleeds to apply and what to prioritize. it gives skill expression. I think warden is not in the best spot right now due to the current raid being HEAVILY focused on ranged damage and adds rather then beefy bossfights where your bleeds will ramp up (not saying there are no phases in between addwave where this still is the case) however, right now they seem to be a supprting class to the hunters. keeping up adroit manouvre is currently your most important job next to making sure ur marked/deminished targets are up. you still deal a hefty amount of damage if played correctly though some burst damage increases would be a quility of life change.
    Yes, high skill floor yet doing 30%% less dps than a hunter on a dummy which is further increased in a raid environment closer to at least 50% dps difference. Content not favouring wardens is not an excuse, warden as a dps is too weak right now and only thing that is keeping it viable is mit debuffs/adroit. Red and yellow are both in a need of getting a slight damage boost to match hunter or simply nerf hunter which is better. Warden as a dps role is unfortunately just not rewarding anymore
    https://youtube.com/channel/UCBcdIjDwllgbFdW57bQlmLA
    Watch me make records on dummies from time to time.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simba- View Post
    Yes, high skill floor yet doing 30%% less dps than a hunter on a dummy which is further increased in a raid environment closer to at least 50% dps difference. Content not favouring wardens is not an excuse, warden as a dps is too weak right now and only thing that is keeping it viable is mit debuffs/adroit. Red and yellow are both in a need of getting a slight damage boost to match hunter or simply nerf hunter which is better. Warden as a dps role is unfortunately just not rewarding anymore
    I highly agree with you. there is a 30% gap even between high skilled/trained players. compared to other dps classes it is more of a support rather then a high DPS sustained class that could compare to Hunters. they really overdid hunter traceries compared to warden ones wich really have like bad overall traceries too... they should give them a dps boost for sure. in both red/yellow

  17. #67
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by alearon View Post
    I highly agree with you. there is a 30% gap even between high skilled/trained players. compared to other dps classes it is more of a support rather then a high DPS sustained class that could compare to Hunters. they really overdid hunter traceries compared to warden ones wich really have like bad overall traceries too... they should give them a dps boost for sure. in both red/yellow
    bring back the Ranged damage tracery

  18. #68
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    I agree with a lot of the previous posters. Warden tanking needs some major work and I, for one, have been waiting for years for it to happen. That being said, between the earlier posts in this thread, and the old thread in the Bullroarer sub-forum, there are many great ideas for you to parse through that would get Wardens in a much better position, so I'm not going to add anything further on that.

    As for making the Yellow trait line an "Extra" line, I have no problem with going that route. Ranged and Melee are determined by what stance you are in, so it won't make a huge difference. The only catch is the Yellow set bonuses would be lost unless you added them in as traits. So we'd stand to lose some Mit debuffs, ranged damage bonus, ranged attack duration decrease, and a few javelin skills unless they are added somewhere else.

    A couple of other points that were brought up, that I would like to add a "vote' for:

    1) Make "Forced March" an automatic skill like Hunter's "Find the Path". Just a QoL fix here, but it would sure be nice to not have to click it EVERYTIME after being in combat.

    2) I'm an old school Warden purist and would love if you could add a class damage bonus for spears, to at least make them equal to swords wielded by Man and High Elf Wardens. The same has Captains getting plus 5% Halberd damage with the passive skill "Improved Halberd Training", Wardens currently have the passive skill "Master Spear Training" which gives a plus 2% to spear damage, so if you just buff that percentage a little, Wardens will be back in the spear business, which is a big part of the heritage of the class. Seriously, look back through the Dev Diary, everything written about the class, all the class quests, they all emphasize how spears are the preferred weapon of Wardens. With all that game lore, its beyond me why spears aren't our best weapon, but they aren't...........Let's fix that. Plus, those spear animations just look so good.
    CAANWICK - Wardenist - Make Wardens Great Again!!! / CAANJOB - The Ettenmoors' worst Burglar / CAANJAAL - Hunter
    "If you find yourself in a fair fight, you've already lost!"
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caanwick View Post
    I agree with a lot of the previous posters. Warden tanking needs some major work and I, for one, have been waiting for years for it to happen. That being said, between the earlier posts in this thread, and the old thread in the Bullroarer sub-forum, there are many great ideas for you to parse through that would get Wardens in a much better position, so I'm not going to add anything further on that.

    As for making the Yellow trait line an "Extra" line, I have no problem with going that route. Ranged and Melee are determined by what stance you are in, so it won't make a huge difference. The only catch is the Yellow set bonuses would be lost unless you added them in as traits. So we'd stand to lose some Mit debuffs, ranged damage bonus, ranged attack duration decrease, and a few javelin skills unless they are added somewhere else.

    A couple of other points that were brought up, that I would like to add a "vote' for:

    1) Make "Forced March" an automatic skill like Hunter's "Find the Path". Just a QoL fix here, but it would sure be nice to not have to click it EVERYTIME after being in combat.

    2) I'm an old school Warden purist and would love if you could add a class damage bonus for spears, to at least make them equal to swords wielded by Man and High Elf Wardens. The same has Captains getting plus 5% Halberd damage with the passive skill "Improved Halberd Training", Wardens currently have the passive skill "Master Spear Training" which gives a plus 2% to spear damage, so if you just buff that percentage a little, Wardens will be back in the spear business, which is a big part of the heritage of the class. Seriously, look back through the Dev Diary, everything written about the class, all the class quests, they all emphasize how spears are the preferred weapon of Wardens. With all that game lore, its beyond me why spears aren't our best weapon, but they aren't...........Let's fix that. Plus, those spear animations just look so good.
    Even if they bump the spear passive's damage they will be still be an inferior choice to Swords because 2% parry granted by swords is far and away the best option. Captains don't actually use Halberds either for this very reason.

  20. #70
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
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    154
    Quote Originally Posted by savetheroadtodoriath View Post
    Even if they bump the spear passive's damage they will be still be an inferior choice to Swords because 2% parry granted by swords is far and away the best option. Captains don't actually use Halberds either for this very reason.
    Changing spear to parry/evade would be really nice, parry from the sword made it the logical choice for serious content. Only the animations for sword are cringe. The spear's bleed is also rather irritating when reflects pop up.
    Brynhildn Mistress Over Fear
    Sons of Numenor, Est 2008, calls on all seeking an established, mature and friendly community! Share your path with us and help build your home in a unique Kinship where you belong! SonsOfNumenor.com

  21. #71
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    1,738
    Quote Originally Posted by savetheroadtodoriath View Post
    Even if they bump the spear passive's damage they will be still be an inferior choice to Swords because 2% parry granted by swords is far and away the best option. Captains don't actually use Halberds either for this very reason.
    It used to be that swords were by far and away the best tanking option, as GMWT gives a whopping 4% to Parry, and Spears where the better option for DPS as the bleeds where still relevant. Currently, the 5% racial for swords simply scales way better than innate spear bleeds, making swords the all-around best option. Maybe Spears could return to being the best DPS if we upped the damage buff percent on Master Spear Training and also gave them a good chance to debuff enemy resists or just bleed resists or something.

  22. #72
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    15
    Two suggestions:
    1. Increase decision making for dps-warden. At the moment a good warden just keeps up all viable dots.
    2. On another note, reduce debuff icon number. IMO warden is one of the worst offenders in raid environment.

    Results:
    less debuff icons
    different rotation for single target and aoe damage
    shorter rampup, switching targets is easier and warden more useful on adds and 3-man-instances
    less rng dependence for dps and debuffs
    a cashout-burst option in the yellow traitline (technically usable by all traitlines)
    more variation in redline gameplay
    more distinction between red (dps) and yellow (debuff)
    reduced amount of useless traits, capstones, passive traitline bonuses (you could also do this for some skills and traceries)

    Part 1
    To reduce the amount of dots on the target simply steal the idea from the loremaster “burning embers”-update, by introducing tiers. There is already a bonus dmg effect in the spear-dot gambitline, which is completely useless right now.
    The idea:
    - tier 3 gambit = weak dot
    - tier 4 gambit of the same line = renewed mediocre dot
    - tier 5 gambit of the same line = renewed very strong dot
    Obviously the dmg numbers would have to be increased significantly, because we are going down from 8 dots to 3. Icons would already be in place, to make the spear-dots more distinguishable simply make the first tier 1 drop of blood, the second 2 drops and the third 3 drops in the icon.

    Part 2
    quick sweep (red line trait):
    Decision making should be more meaningful. Quick sweep should be tne aoe option, so single target dps should suffer from using this.

    Currently: Proc small+medium sweep by using onslaught/wall of steel after power attack/mighty blow.
    New: Make power attack the baseline gambit and force the warden into a decision between single target or aoe. Continue with mighty blow -> unerring strike for a powerful single target dot OR continue with onslaught -> wall of steel. If quick sweep is traited in redline the new onslaught should consume the power attack-bleed and spread a small sweep-bleed. Using wall of steel on a target with an active small sweep-bleed should put a medium sweep-bleed on the targets around.
    This way the warden has to actually think about the rotation and has variation between single target and aoe.

    In line with this change: Currently a good warden player is simply able to keep all dots up on a target. Reduce tick-rate and dot-duration…
    … by reducing tickrate you shorten the ramp up from 4s to 3s, making switching targets easier, because you apply dmg faster.
    … by reducing dot duration the warden has to prioritize the best dots in the current situation (mainly aoe vs single target).

    New dot lines:
    piercing strike -> spear of virtue
    power attack -> mighty blow -> unerring strike
    power attack -> onslaught -> wall of steel
    brink of victory -> surety of death -> desolation

    barbed javelins (yellow line trait):
    Make barbed javelins stack tiers just like the idea above, but increase fully traited probability to 100%.
    shattered javelins-trait:
    - Currently: cash out, when reapplying same tier of barbed javelin again (really weak, never do this).
    - New: after stacking up to barbed javelin tier 5, make it an option to cash out for big burst. With such a delay this is the only way possible I see to give burst to a warden. The cash out is on a mechanical cooldown, because you have to reapply every tier again, before being able to cash out again. The cashout dmg should not be abusable, because stacking ranged and melee dots should net you more actual dps on the long run. It would only be an option for ranged only players or when trying to go for burst instead of long term dps. Cash out could be bound to one of the javelin skills (wages of fear would get a purpose?).
    - Open question: what about aoe gambits? IMO they should tier up aswell, cashout is not a problem, because wages of fear is single target.

    Marked Target tracery:
    Should be a fixed mitigation debuff increase instead of a chance to apply the debuf twice. Really annoying to rely on rng for debuffs the whole raid depends on heavily.

    General Redline traits:

    Honed Spikes: change the effect to increase something useful, examples:
    - dot critical magnitude/change
    - light dmg

    Martial fury: Instead of a chance to apply 2 dots, make it a chance to reset gambit-builder cooldown (blue and yellow already have a reset in their traitline).

    General Yellowline traits:

    Javelin of deadly force, new suggestion: after using you get a buff that increases dmg of next gambit (not just initial dmg, dots included). The more targets you hit with javelin of deadly force, the higher the dmg boost.
    Snap shot: Reduce snapshot skills to Ambush (keep 5 second knockout + 50% runspeed) and javelin of deadly force (new version mentioned above).

    You could try to make yellow an actually buff and debuff focused line, but I am not sure whether it is worth the time. Here some suggestions:

    Fire at will: change it from flat to percentage mastery buff.
    Dodge This!: Make it actually proc (you never miss with enough finesse) and add an incoming dmg or critical chance buff on the target.
    Suppression: Increase the opponent damage debuff, at the moment the dmg reduction does nothing.
    Hurry up with that!: Not really a change, but introduce some way to buff non-caster classes:
    - Piercing Javelins: melee dmg buff
    - Battering Strikes: tactical dmg buff (fire rk would benefit from induction and tactical dmg, but is not that heavy of a caster class like hunter)


    PS: I don’t play blue line, but maybe the same way dots tier up, heals could tier up?

  23. #73
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by Carved View Post
    Edit: To clarify why 'delete yellow': Warden was never a ranged dps.
    Seconded. I love seize the moment is all though.

  24. #74
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    9
    A lot of the simple issues with healing scaling and morale taps and under-powered traits etc... have mentioned repeatedly and explained very well already, so I won't bother repeating that. I'll talk about something else:

    Warden tanks have a fundamental balance issue with the other classes. Cooldowns. They don't fit with the warden's play style, but the other tanks have powerful cooldowns, while being just as good (or better) than Warden without the cooldowns. If you made the warden better without the cooldowns, then the warden would be better. It's very hard to balance cooldown tank with a non-cooldown tank.

    I have a suggestion to help: Give the warden a cooldown skill, or change the existing ones, that gives a powerful tank buff to the warden, like other tanks have, and removes the cooldown of all masteries, like seize the moment does. I like this because it fills in the hole of tanking cooldown, while also feeling true to the warden playstyle. Furthermore, it could open up a decision to made, do I blow it now to plough through my gambits? Or do I save it for the tanky buff when needed? It would just be fun too.

    Then red can have the same thing, except it gives a damage buff instead of tanky buff. Yellow's seize the moment (if yellow survives) could just reset this cooldown, so it stays very similar.

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    104
    I think one fix for a lot of what we're thinking is to make Seize the Moment a spiritual feature across all traitlines. Some trait that when proc'd drastically speeds up our rotation for a short time. This doesn't have to be something that simply resets masteries.

    Blue has the trait Counter-Attack that will reset masteries on an evade, but this can only proc once every 15 seconds. This is nice to have when it happens but it's not a rotation buster like Seize the Moment is. Bringing this down to eight or ten seconds would help speed up our rotation. I'm also open to a Snap Shot like system that gives us access to our four or five length avoidance/mitigation buff gambits.

    Red currently doesn't have any mastery reset traits but maybe something like a proc that makes the Power Attack line into an AoE skill for ten seconds. This would allow us to get bleeds up quickly and would help with the urgency issue we face. It takes us a long time to ramp up our DPS since we're a DoT based class.
    Last edited by martin93; Sep 06 2022 at 09:35 AM.

 

 
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