Muster in the Wardens Subforum

[LagunaD2]

This is not a role-playing channel!

It is for the dev.

[Atomos]

Some kind of response or update would be appreciated.

[Gandolf_TheOld]

Sindhol wrote:

“(2) The gambit system is great, but gambits with cooldowns are kind of self-defeating.”

Agree with the above. Building a gambit is a cooldown in and of itself.

[Osglinthor]

Sindhol wrote:

“(2) The gambit system is great, but gambits with cooldowns are kind of self-defeating.”

Agree with the above. Building a gambit is a cooldown in and of itself.

This is wrong way to go about it. Gambit build speed should be increased overall, and there is no way to include decision making and balance class properly without gambits with cooldowns(I encourage everyone including dev to check invoker in dota2 and how it was improved over years considering warden is based on it). Now this doesnt mean every gambit should have CD, but select few definitly should, gambits that could deal high upfront damage/cash out dots or hots for buffs, provide -incoming dmg buffs for tanking similar way shield tactics works(granted not much use since in recent times you cant predict stun and in those situations LM usualy covers you). This would make rotation way more fun with higher skill cap compared to where we land with masteries CD and no room for decision making wich red warden was since forever. Situation is bit better with yellow line at the moment and yet people hate on it, now sure STM rng can be bad sometimes but rotation is still far superior and actualy makes you think about masteries usage unlike red and blue. Trough tracking bleeds. Its not the best and could use improvments but reverting to static red line rotation wich will be result of no CD gambits and removal of STM(wich is 99% going to happen based on dev replies in discord and way certain people argue about it when they dont even use it properly) is a big mistake.

Example of top of my head would be making QS single target, increasing its damage and increasing damage of power attack,mighty blow,unering strike. Then you increase damage of WoS/Onslaught and Add CD of ~10 15 sec to them. Balance damage where they have higher brust>But delay your sustained damage. They end up being used for fast target switch, you get to play around with different mob morale pool if they are worth using immediatly and so on. Just one of quick examples that can work by tuning existing skills, and you avoid need of removing battle memory, avoid having to slow down gambit build speed in order to prevent wos/onslaught spam. And in same way you fix a lot of tanking issues. With strong effect gambits gated behind CD to prevent their spam and leave room for fluid gameplay.

[Gandolf_TheOld]

This is wrong way to go about it. Gambit build speed should be increased overall, and there is no way to include decision making and balance class properly without gambits with cooldowns(I encourage everyone including dev to check invoker in dota2 and how it was improved over years considering warden is based on it). Now this doesnt mean every gambit should have CD, but select few definitly should, gambits that could deal high upfront damage/cash out dots or hots for buffs, provide -incoming dmg buffs for tanking similar way shield tactics works(granted not much use since in recent times you cant predict stun and in those situations LM usualy covers you). This would make rotation way more fun with higher skill cap compared to where we land with masteries CD and no room for decision making wich red warden was since forever. Situation is bit better with yellow line at the moment and yet people hate on it, now sure STM rng can be bad sometimes but rotation is still far superior and actualy makes you think about masteries usage unlike red and blue. Trough tracking bleeds. Its not the best and could use improvments but reverting to static red line rotation wich will be result of no CD gambits and removal of STM(wich is 99% going to happen based on dev replies in discord and way certain people argue about it when they dont even use it properly) is a big mistake.

Example of top of my head would be making QS single target, increasing its damage and increasing damage of power attack,mighty blow,unering strike. Then you increase damage of WoS/Onslaught and Add CD of ~10 15 sec to them. Balance damage where they have higher brust>But delay your sustained damage. They end up being used for fast target switch, you get to play around with different mob morale pool if they are worth using immediatly and so on. Just one of quick examples that can work by tuning existing skills, and you avoid need of removing battle memory, avoid having to slow down gambit build speed in order to prevent wos/onslaught spam. And in same way you fix a lot of tanking issues. With strong effect gambits gated behind CD to prevent their spam and leave room for fluid gameplay.

How is the Warden, a melee class, released in Feb 2009, based upon the DOTA2 Invoker, a magic user, when the development of DOTA 2 began in 2009 and was released in 2013?

One could think you have your dates mixed up.

[Osglinthor]

How is the Warden, a melee class, released in Feb 2009, based upon the DOTA2 Invoker, a magic user, when the development of DOTA 2 began in 2009 and was released in 2013?

One could think you have your dates mixed up.

You are ignoring dota1 https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Version_6.10. Dev also confirmed that invoker was inspiration for warden, even tho I have learned that recently I have always compared ward to invoker. Tho where one got improved over time warden is stuck in quite bad state gameplay wise since release it seems.

[Kander]

Defiant Challenge can and should be a double-edged sword. I like it that way.


This is a bit of a contentious point amongst wardens, though.

Yeah, it's contentious because there's some kind of split in what playerbase want to get out of the warden tank.
There's people who want to return to the uniqueness and style the class had at lvl 65-85, where game was so different to current one, but that previous warden may probably still be viable and fit into current game style with proper adjustments, or at least some changes that would return to this part of the class' history and mix it well enough with current class that it is still fit to counter all the new mechanics that didn't exist back then.
There's people who want to return to the uniqueness and style the class had at lvl 95-115. Here some patches were made to the class after being a really subpar tank with trait tree changes, resulting in certainly strong points where no other class could outperform and being weaker in most of the fights in the game as tanks. This would be easier to implement maybe as it's just returning to a previous state of the class when game wasn't that much different as it is right now, but still a class that was not really performing well for most of the fights in the game.

I just look back and the last time I remember getting into a raid as a warden tank (lower tiers pugs) and not being told immediately "well, let's wait and see if we find a guard/captain/beo and if we can't you will go tank", it was lvl 85. At lvl 95 even me, having a warden tank, wouldn't like to get a good warden over a mediocre guardian. For sure wardens were viable for a few raids after lvl 95, but just worse than guards. At lvl 75 I even remember warden tanks doing T2 orthanc bosses without that much struggle, maybe guards were still favoured but a good warden was certainly better than a mediocre guard. My choice is simple, go back to when I started playing the class and when the class was strongest, and try to implement what was lost and got worse then the best way possible for current game.

[Sindhol]

Yeah, it's contentious because there's some kind of split in what playerbase want to get out of the warden tank.
There's people who want to return to the uniqueness and style the class had at lvl 65-85, [...]
There's people who want to return to the uniqueness and style the class had at lvl 95-115. [...]

I think you're right in that it's a matter of style. The pre- and post-HD versions of Defiant Challenge are both very useful to tanks, but they fit different niches: the latter is right on the edge between a skill in rotation and a cooldown, on the level of Redirect (but more powerful), whereas the former is a straight cooldown. You could add a straight cooldown to the post-HD warden, but the class would still play differently, with its cycles of high and low mitigations. Power-wise, either version could work in either era, as long as you choose the right mitigation value for DC (e.g. in the current game, you don't want it to be +40% ). I'd like a kind of hybrid: you have the post-HD DC as a rotation skill, and as cooldown, you have another DC with a longer cooldown.

What we're (almost) certainly not getting back is the pre-HD threat system, which is the real shame.

[OnnMacMahal]

Hi everyone,

Rest assured I have not forgotten about this thread. I have read each and every one of these replies, but we aren't making any significant changes to the Warden class for the upcoming release of Before the Shadow, so my attention has primarily been on work for that upcoming release.


I appreciate all the thoughtful replies here, and look forward to talking to you about our goals and proposed changes to wardens in the near future.


Just to clarify a few things up front, though:

1. We're not going to get rid of gambits
Gambits are the core identity of the class, and without them, a warden is not a warden. Gambits themselves bring some inherent challenges that other classes don't have. For example, we don't want some gambits to be locked behind a specific specialization tree. And by their nature, gambits don't have real cooldowns associated with them. Where other tanks can cycle through different cooldown skills that each have 1-minute to 3-minute cadences, warden gambits can't be designed the same way. This limitation is a design challenge, but not an insurmountable one.

2. We haven't decided if the yellow tree is going to become passive, but it is a strong candidate for becoming passive
Most players who specialize in yellow either do so because they want to primarily use ranged gambits, or they're doing so exclusively because of the benefits from Seize the Moment and Double-proc target debuffs. If yellow were to become passive, it would still maintain its orientation towards ranged gambits and support, but it wouldn't be a prerequisite barrier by virtue of its exclusive control of Seize the Moment and Focus Fire.
Again, if the yellow tree became passive, that would not mean its being 'deleted' or 'destroyed.' You would still be able to stay in Assailment stance if you wish, or if the situation demands it. But if it were to stay an active specialization, yellow would need to have a distinct playstyle and role, and at the moment it does not.

3. My original post beginning this thread was a little tongue-in-cheek. We're not ignoring years of post or feedback, but I wanted to give you an opportunity to tell us how you feel about the state of the class right now. We haven't started working on warden changes yet, but clearly many of you felt that the minstrel changes weren't announced early enough. I can't offer you a concrete timeframe yet, but we will be making changes to the warden class a little ways down the road. When I have a rough outline of what those proposed changes are, I'll make a new thread here. In the meantime, I appreciate all the feedback and discussions you've had. The fact that I haven't replied in this thread is partly because I've been busy, and partly because this was meant to be an opportunity for you to tell us how you feel about the class and the way it plays, rather than a space for me to dictate to you what the class should be.

4. That said, several of you have asked what our 'goal' for the class is. As it ever was, the Warden should be a competent main tank when specialized in Determination, and a competent damage-dealer when specialized in Recklessness or Assailment. If Assailment becomes passive, at least some of that ranged potential and group support would be available regardless of your primary role.


I look forward to talking to you more about the Warden soon!

[LagunaD2]

That's more like it.

[Sindhol]

1. We're not going to get rid of gambits

Glad to hear everything you say here.

2. We haven't decided if the yellow tree is going to become passive, but it is a strong candidate for becoming passive
Most players who specialize in yellow either do so because they want to primarily use ranged gambits, or they're doing so exclusively because of the benefits from Seize the Moment and Double-proc target debuffs. If yellow were to become passive, it would still maintain its orientation towards ranged gambits and support, but it wouldn't be a prerequisite barrier by virtue of its exclusive control of Seize the Moment and Focus Fire.
Again, if the yellow tree became passive, that would not mean its being 'deleted' or 'destroyed.' You would still be able to stay in Assailment stance if you wish, or if the situation demands it. But if it were to stay an active specialization, yellow would need to have a distinct playstyle and role, and at the moment it does not.

I agree that yellow line currently has no distinct role and playstyle, but I think that's because it's not implemented well. It's pretty obvious that it's supposed to be a skirmisher, that is, an out-fighter who can briefly dish out punishment in melee before moving back to harass at range. (In pvp, it does actually do that. Harass at range, that is.)

I would like for yellow line to lean into the "ambusher/skirmisher" concept. I don't think it should be a sustained ranged DPS line.

1. Long-range skirmishing applying debuffs and moderate bleed DPS (currently ranged DPS is very low) alternated with shorter periods of high melee damage.
2. Enhanced stealth: shorter induction, much shorter cooldown, more in-stealth speed, ability to stealth in combat. I would keep the stealth duration fairly short, though, especially in combat. Just enough time to prep a gambit.
3. Enhanced Ambush: shorter induction, usable in combat.
4. Enhanced melee burst damage, reduced melee bleed damage (move to ranged bleeds).
5. Enhanced damage from stealth and briefly after exiting stealth and casting Ambush.
6. Ranged gambits can put up debuffs that can be cashed out for extra burst or bleeds (depending on the gambit used to cash out).
7. Critical Strike can be made Immediate, allowing it to function as an extra animation cut post-Ambush. Alternatively, it could deliver the melee version of a stored ranged gambit (this would be technically difficult, I think, but it'd be cool).

4. That said, several of you have asked what our 'goal' for the class is. As it ever was, the Warden should be a competent main tank when specialized in Determination, and a competent damage-dealer when specialized in Recklessness or Assailment. If Assailment becomes passive, at least some of that ranged potential and group support would be available regardless of your primary role.

It's hard to say what this means. We'd like a clear purpose.

1. What is a "competent main tank"?
2. Can a "competent main tank" tank tier 5 raids? What about tier 4? Tier 3?
3. What is a a "competent damage-dealer"?
4. Is a "competent damage-dealer" a solid pick for one slot in a tier 5 raid group? Should you want to bring a second? That is, should the DPS be high enough that the class is worth bringing even if the class-unique debuffs are already present?
5. Should wardens be melee damage specialists in Assailment?
6. Should wardens be able to briefly tank raid adds in redline, if they have Defiant Challenge traited? (Cf. red burglars' Knives Out)
7. Should warden tanks have self-heals that are higher than other tanks'?
8. Should one advantage of a warden tank over other tanks be that they do significant damage with bleeds? ("Significant damage", in this case, means ~a third of what a full DPS in the same group would do. Not necessarily a warden DPS, whatever DPS is good for the instance you're running.)
9. Should a trait line have more than three significant features?

I'm really glad that there are no warden changes currently in the works. I feel that you're involving us at the right time: before work starts. Happy with that .

[Atomos]

Hi everyone,

Rest assured I have not forgotten about this thread. I have read each and every one of these replies, but we aren't making any significant changes to the Warden class for the upcoming release of Before the Shadow, so my attention has primarily been on work for that upcoming release.


I appreciate all the thoughtful replies here, and look forward to talking to you about our goals and proposed changes to wardens in the near future.

Thank you for the reply!

2. We haven't decided if the yellow tree is going to become passive, but it is a strong candidate for becoming passive
Most players who specialize in yellow either do so because they want to primarily use ranged gambits, or they're doing so exclusively because of the benefits from Seize the Moment and Double-proc target debuffs. If yellow were to become passive, it would still maintain its orientation towards ranged gambits and support, but it wouldn't be a prerequisite barrier by virtue of its exclusive control of Seize the Moment and Focus Fire.
Again, if the yellow tree became passive, that would not mean its being 'deleted' or 'destroyed.' You would still be able to stay in Assailment stance if you wish, or if the situation demands it. But if it were to stay an active specialization, yellow would need to have a distinct playstyle and role, and at the moment it does not.

I agree with this. Although yellow line is quite fun to play on Warden sometimes, I personally can't really justify it having a whole tree dedicated to it at the moment.

4. That said, several of you have asked what our 'goal' for the class is. As it ever was, the Warden should be a competent main tank when specialized in Determination, and a competent damage-dealer when specialized in Recklessness or Assailment. If Assailment becomes passive, at least some of that ranged potential and group support would be available regardless of your primary role.

This is good news. I am glad that the Warden's main tank role will not be forgotten or abandoned.

[Halphast]

Most people who play yellow are either in it to be a ranged fighter or a hybrid with red so they can get Seize the Moment. I still think blue and red should just be given their own way of resetting masteries.

As a debuffer, yellow is lackluster- I haven't heard anyone ever say they love playing yellow as a debuff class.

The easiest way to give Yellow its own identity would be to replace lesser-used Traits with additional bonuses to ranged damage. Maybe some traits that upgrade the ranged versions of gambits to add bleeds like melee counterparts. As it is those of us who play yellow as primarily ranged have only two or three really useful ranged gambits. Consider the following traits for replacement:

Fire at Will
Dodge This
Momentum
Shields Up
Hurry Up with That
Battering Strikes
Suppression
Javelin of Deadly Force

While any of the above may be said to have some small benefit in their way, replacing a few or several of the above traits with a gambit upgrade (e.g. add a bleed to ranged wall of steel- that sort of thing) could easily make Yellow a much more fun and effective ranged class without reinventing the wheel.

[Sindhol]

Most people who play yellow are either in it to be a ranged fighter or a hybrid with red so they can get Seize the Moment. I still think blue and red should just be given their own way of resetting masteries.

Traiting deep into red is separate from what people want out of yellow line. Even if you want a pure ranged warden, red still has all the DPS traits.

Anyway, I don't think the pure-ranged-warden crowd is very big. You are the only person I know who actually plays a warden as a pure ranged class, and I've never heard anyone say that they'd want to do so.

I think you're showing a bit of bias towards solo ranged-only play when you say this:

Consider the following traits for replacement:

Fire at Will
Dodge This
Momentum
Shields Up
Hurry Up with That
Battering Strikes
Suppression
Javelin of Deadly Force

Momentum and Hurry Up With That are good traits. Momentum in particular suits the warden, and is used both in red and yellow warden builds. Hurry Up With That is a rare example of a warden group buff as well as a rare example of a group-wide induction speed buff. Shields Up isn't good, especially in a DPS build, but it's only one rank for a small benefit. It conceptually fits the warden, and just because it's so cheap, it's worth traiting from blue (assuming you're going up to AoE mit debuff anyway). The rest is #### and can go/needs improvement, I agree.

The above doesn't change that I fully agree that many ranged gambits need a buff (both in damage and in debuff strength), that adding bleeds is a good way to do that (the most warden-y buff to grant), and that yellow line needs more ranged damage. A skirmisher/ambusher does need to be able to do enough damage at range to make staying there an option. It doesn't have to be the best option all the time (there should be reasons to enter melee), but it certainly shouldn't be a waste of time.

[wolfjoy]

Hi everyone,

Rest assured I have not forgotten about this thread. I have read each and every one of these replies, but we aren't making any significant changes to the Warden class for the upcoming release of Before the Shadow, so my attention has primarily been on work for that upcoming release.


I appreciate all the thoughtful replies here, and look forward to talking to you about our goals and proposed changes to wardens in the near future.


Just to clarify a few things up front, though:

1. We're not going to get rid of gambits
Gambits are the core identity of the class, and without them, a warden is not a warden. Gambits themselves bring some inherent challenges that other classes don't have. For example, we don't want some gambits to be locked behind a specific specialization tree. And by their nature, gambits don't have real cooldowns associated with them. Where other tanks can cycle through different cooldown skills that each have 1-minute to 3-minute cadences, warden gambits can't be designed the same way. This limitation is a design challenge, but not an insurmountable one.

2. We haven't decided if the yellow tree is going to become passive, but it is a strong candidate for becoming passive
Most players who specialize in yellow either do so because they want to primarily use ranged gambits, or they're doing so exclusively because of the benefits from Seize the Moment and Double-proc target debuffs. If yellow were to become passive, it would still maintain its orientation towards ranged gambits and support, but it wouldn't be a prerequisite barrier by virtue of its exclusive control of Seize the Moment and Focus Fire.
Again, if the yellow tree became passive, that would not mean its being 'deleted' or 'destroyed.' You would still be able to stay in Assailment stance if you wish, or if the situation demands it. But if it were to stay an active specialization, yellow would need to have a distinct playstyle and role, and at the moment it does not.

3. My original post beginning this thread was a little tongue-in-cheek. We're not ignoring years of post or feedback, but I wanted to give you an opportunity to tell us how you feel about the state of the class right now. We haven't started working on warden changes yet, but clearly many of you felt that the minstrel changes weren't announced early enough. I can't offer you a concrete timeframe yet, but we will be making changes to the warden class a little ways down the road. When I have a rough outline of what those proposed changes are, I'll make a new thread here. In the meantime, I appreciate all the feedback and discussions you've had. The fact that I haven't replied in this thread is partly because I've been busy, and partly because this was meant to be an opportunity for you to tell us how you feel about the class and the way it plays, rather than a space for me to dictate to you what the class should be.

4. That said, several of you have asked what our 'goal' for the class is. As it ever was, the Warden should be a competent main tank when specialized in Determination, and a competent damage-dealer when specialized in Recklessness or Assailment. If Assailment becomes passive, at least some of that ranged potential and group support would be available regardless of your primary role.


I look forward to talking to you more about the Warden soon!

> My original post beginning this thread was a little tongue-in-cheek. We're not ignoring years of post or feedback, but I wanted to give you an opportunity to tell us how you feel about the state of the class...

LOL: is that the same "We want feedback" as the already-set-in-stone mini "rework", where you still asked for feedback?

[Thruili]

I really do not like Seize the Moment, as this trait not only in my opionion destroys the feel of the class by removing the cooldowns on the masteries, but also makes the use of a plugin mandatory to know who long the buff is active and which dots are on the enemy.
I would really appreciate it, if I was able to play the Warden without this trait competitively.

[Aleziana]

I believe wardens should be the second tank after Guardian and be relevant for high tier content.

For dps class i would more suggest make range Warden to compete hunters a little bit rather than having wardens compete melee class; why? because at the moment we already have many melee classes to compete champions (the main melee class) like Brawlers so having javelins compete hunters would be a fair trade plus wardens are medium armor class and as specialized dps wardens should be close to healers (and plz don't transform it into heavy class). Javelins are also wardens selling point IMO.

So Blue and Yellow warden should be the options for high tier content while Red melee warden for solo and maybe up to 3-6mans.

Just my opinion .

[Faudyen]

It's hard to say what this means. We'd like a clear purpose.
[LIST=1][*]What is a "competent main tank"?[*]Can a "competent main tank" tank tier 5 raids? What about tier 4? Tier 3?[*]What is a a "competent damage-dealer"?

This is the question for me as well. They have already said that each class should be able to be taken as a dps on a raid. I really do think there is a disconnect between what players think a dps should be in a raid vs what the devs think should be a dps in a raid. I’m willing to be 100% wrong here but sometimes I think the devs think a dps role is purely about numbers, and that is really not true. There are other factors that go into choosing a person and class for a raid dps role.
The deverloper here has stated that yellow might be on the chopping block. Ok, great. I wouldn’t mind it going the way of brawler, mini etc. I would like to see all the gambits allowed either melee or ranged.
This tells me that blue line is not on the chopping block which leads to the question, what is a competent main tank? The entire Warden rework could be around this one topic if our dev prefers to go that route. There is a huge amount of change that would have to be done here. The work around raid bosses and BPE alone is enough for me to be willing to buy our poor dev a beer if I were to ever meet them.
As I mentioned with the dps, my guess is the word competent means something different to a developer than a player.
As for me, as a player, competent to me means, that yes, a Warden can tank a T5 raid. Competent doesn’t mean that they can tank a T2 6 man.
As a warden, maybe I have to work for it and as a Warden I’m used to that, but I should be able to do it with the proper gambit rotation. Anything less than being able to play 100% of the content in this game in a designed role means that role is not competent. That is my opinion as a player.

[Halphast]

...I don't think the pure-ranged-warden crowd is very big ... Momentum and Hurry Up With That are good traits. ...

I figured people would take exception to my list of potential traits to replace. Please bear in mind that is a broad list and they only need to replace a trait or two with a ranged gambit upgrade to make yellow a more appealing ranged class.

Even though there aren't many people who play it ranged, if a few of the debatably-useful traits were replaced with range bleeds/damage, perhaps a lot more people WOULD play it ranged. It seems like a really easy fix for yellow line. The other option for yellow would be making it a more effective debuff line, but that would require a lot more work from the ground up- and I'm not sure there's much demand for that anyway.

[savetheroadtodoriath]

#1) Add a skill that inverts the order of your current Gambit. Who wouldn't love that? It would add so much complexity and potential. You could call it Mastery Master or something.

Quoting this because I badly want it to happen. It would make Warden significantly more interesting in an interesting way.

[Regero]

1. We're not going to get rid of gambits

/cheer. I couldn't even imagine attempting that. Removing Gambits from Wardens would be like building an entirely new class from scratch. I would honestly like to see more Gambits and fewer clicky skills.

2. We haven't decided if the yellow tree is going to become passive, but it is a strong candidate for becoming passive
if it were to stay an active specialization, yellow would need to have a distinct playstyle and role, and at the moment it does not.

100% agreed! I still like the idea of Yellow line emphasizing burst/sustained DPS that relies on hard hits and crits at the cost of having ultimately less possible DPS than red. Let red deal the most DPS, but take a minute to wind up as you stack bleeds. Remove bleeds from Yellow and Assailment, but make hits harder and crits way more likely. Maybe make yellow line improve the debuffs more as well... I guess it would almost be like a ranged Burglar from the Mirkwood-era.

3. My original post beginning this thread was a little tongue-in-cheek. We're not ignoring years of post or feedback, but I wanted to give you an opportunity to tell us how you feel about the state of the class right now. We haven't started working on warden changes yet, but clearly many of you felt that the minstrel changes weren't announced early enough. I can't offer you a concrete timeframe yet, but we will be making changes to the warden class a little ways down the road. When I have a rough outline of what those proposed changes are, I'll make a new thread here. In the meantime, I appreciate all the feedback and discussions you've had. The fact that I haven't replied in this thread is partly because I've been busy, and partly because this was meant to be an opportunity for you to tell us how you feel about the class and the way it plays, rather than a space for me to dictate to you what the class should be.

I appreciate it. This has been a fun and, I think, productive thread. I liked your OP; it was more interesting and fun than "So tell me 'bout the Warden".

4. the Warden should be a competent main tank when specialized in Determination

There is nothing about that statement that I don't love. The Warden, while it CAN currently tank 3 and 6-mans, and even T1 and T2 Raids with difficulty, is currently down there with Blue Champs as far as viability goes; really not in a good place. No one actively looks for, or even really wants, a Warden tank post level 110. Given the changes in the current game environment from what it was in Moria, do you have any early thoughts on how you would go about upping survivability? BPE is less viable than it used to be, heals can be upped, but you don't want the class soloing T1 Raids just so it can be competent in T3 Raids. I guess you could throw mitigation at it, but I don't like the idea of the class losing its dependence on its traditional mechanics and just becoming a pseudo-heavy armor class.

[Gandolf_TheOld]

This is wrong way to go about it. Gambit build speed should be increased overall, and there is no way to include decision making and balance class properly without gambits with cooldowns(I encourage everyone including dev to check invoker in dota2 and how it was improved over years considering warden is based on it). Now this doesnt mean every gambit should have CD, but select few definitly should, gambits that could deal high upfront damage/cash out dots or hots for buffs, provide -incoming dmg buffs for tanking similar way shield tactics works(granted not much use since in recent times you cant predict stun and in those situations LM usualy covers you). This would make rotation way more fun with higher skill cap compared to where we land with masteries CD and no room for decision making wich red warden was since forever. Situation is bit better with yellow line at the moment and yet people hate on it, now sure STM rng can be bad sometimes but rotation is still far superior and actualy makes you think about masteries usage unlike red and blue. Trough tracking bleeds. Its not the best and could use improvments but reverting to static red line rotation wich will be result of no CD gambits and removal of STM(wich is 99% going to happen based on dev replies in discord and way certain people argue about it when they dont even use it properly) is a big mistake.

Example of top of my head would be making QS single target, increasing its damage and increasing damage of power attack,mighty blow,unering strike. Then you increase damage of WoS/Onslaught and Add CD of ~10 15 sec to them. Balance damage where they have higher brust>But delay your sustained damage. They end up being used for fast target switch, you get to play around with different mob morale pool if they are worth using immediatly and so on. Just one of quick examples that can work by tuning existing skills, and you avoid need of removing battle memory, avoid having to slow down gambit build speed in order to prevent wos/onslaught spam. And in same way you fix a lot of tanking issues. With strong effect gambits gated behind CD to prevent their spam and leave room for fluid gameplay.

You are ignoring dota1 https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Version_6.10. Dev also confirmed that invoker was inspiration for warden, even tho I have learned that recently I have always compared ward to invoker. Tho where one got improved over time warden is stuck in quite bad state gameplay wise since release it seems.

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You said dota2. Now you say dota1. Which is it?

Ok a Dev said – which Dev, when, got a link to support this? Otherwise, it is just something you pulled from some dark region of yours.

Your link goes to what looks like update notes, does mention an Invoker, but not much else identifiable to the dota Invoker class.

Even in dota the Invoker (first appearance, not even part of WoW) is a magic user, and dota is a MOBA mod for WoW. While LOTRO's Warden is a melee class and is part of an MMORPG. Looks to me to still be an apples to oranges comparison.

[Osglinthor]

Highlight added for emphasis.

You said dota2. Now you say dota1. Which is it?

Ok a Dev said – which Dev, when, got a link to support this? Otherwise, it is just something you pulled from some dark region of yours.

Your link goes to what looks like update notes, does mention an Invoker, but not much else identifiable to the dota Invoker class.

Even in dota the Invoker (first appearance, not even part of WoW) is a magic user, and dota is a MOBA mod for WoW. While LOTRO's Warden is a melee class and is part of an MMORPG. Looks to me to still be an apples to oranges comparison.

Come on man, I said to check Invoker IN dota2, and to see how it improved over the years. I never said it was first released in dota2. I linked you patch notes where you clearly can see exact date of first Invoker release. And I have no itention of diging up discord messege that has link to exact dev statement that invoker was inspiration for warden considering you dont bother to read or think about what I said in the first place. It is completly irelevent that invoker is magic user or that he is in moba they literaly use the same system.

[CasualActual]

1. Similar to the captain class yellow line, would be cool if capstone for blue made warden self heals raid wide.
2. I presume never surrender is still broken in that bosses can bypass it and kill the warden before receiving the heal. Hopefully this can get fixed.
3. Very frustrating to play the warden when the server is lagging, which is very frequent. I think you could reduce the frustration here by removing the cd on masteries.

[Sindhol]

Hi everyone,

Rest assured I have not forgotten about this thread. I have read each and every one of these replies, but we aren't making any significant changes to the Warden class for the upcoming release of Before the Shadow, so my attention has primarily been on work for that upcoming release.

[...]

I look forward to talking to you more about the Warden soon!

Alright, let's talk! What are your plans for the warden, OnnMacMahal?