Minstrel Changes and Feedback

[Neinda]

From what I have been told it is standard procedure and required for T3 and above now to do this. Much better than those silly little 3 minute buffs from the yellow minis abusing the system. I also heard that defilers' totems work great for keeping minis in combat to keep buffs at full strength for the start of a fight. With the new longer buffs with the latest update the stay in combat system should work even better.

Question for SSG: Since you have built in an obvious and fairly simple exploit for minis to buff prior to boss fights why did you stop minis from prebuffing?

It really makes little sense if you are going to leave the ability to stay in combat and fully implement buffs by using a few simple tricks.

Why not just let the minis prebuff or if you really don't want that you need a method to clear all current mini buffs at the same moment the boss becomes active.

Changes like this which only benefit those willing to exploit the system don't look great and ignoring and exploit as obvious and well known as this particular exploit doesn't reflect well on you as a company. Catering to the raid groups? Will you finally "discover" the exploit after a sufficient number of people complete T4/5?

[Dervacus]

Based on this thread, this will probably not be popular but...

...I haven't had any issues with healing my groups since that change. Sure, it's 'different' as far as the rotation and no pre-fight buffing, but I'm really confused as to what everyone is complaining about

*hides*

[DoRonRon]

Based on this thread, this will probably not be popular but...

...I haven't had any issues with healing my groups since that change. Sure, it's 'different' as far as the rotation and no pre-fight buffing, but I'm really confused as to what everyone is complaining about

*hides*

Could I ask if you are tracking the Anthems and keeping them up for the duration, how many also? Have you switched to Red and maintained four or five anthems over an extended solo play session going in and out of combat also? There are no doubts that the overall healing and damage has gone up if that is your only measure. The question is are you buffing your group to their optimum capabilities? The new LIs gained acceptance from the reforge hikes, so is this too... ? And if the raid is stacking hunters they are going to be hit with a lack of a War Anthem.

[Bio-Flame]

There is no question our heals are at least roughly the same if not outright better.
There's also no question that Anthems are very powerful too.


So, as far as raid performance, it's a "yes" all the way, through and through, hands down, no questions asked.



But raid performance does not tell the whole story.
The issue many players have is with the amount of boring cast and recast of Anthems that Minis now have to do.
It's not just all the keys we now have to press to achieve the same results as before, it's also that the so called "ramp-up phase" of Anthems takes sooooo damn long with soooo many key presses.


For OnnMacMahal, it's engaging. It's his opinion to which he is entited to.
THe issue is him forcing on the Mini player base a new boring playstyle that the majority of the playerbase did NOT enjoy.


Again: up until page 17, the feedback was 64% negative, with 23% mixed and only 13% positive.


It's very very low.
For the 13%: good for you.
For the rest? Well, OnnMacMahal has all the power and he is forcing this, correction, he already forced this down our throats, completely disregarding that the vast majority of the feedback was negative.


He does not care because he didn't like the way the Blue Mini played in the first place.
So, he pushed this change on players who have been playing Mini for more than a decade, just because he can.
After all, he is the boss, and we are the players that don't get his time to post here, unlike the players on discord that do get his time.


These kind of negative changes are never to the overall health of an old MMO like LOTRO, nor do they make sense from a financial point of view.
And unfortunately, over the year LOTRO has had quite a few of these kinds of negative changes.

[Bio-Flame]

Question for SSG: Since you have built in an obvious and fairly simple exploit for minis to buff prior to boss fights why did you stop minis from prebuffing?

It really makes little sense if you are going to leave the ability to stay in combat and fully implement buffs by using a few simple tricks.

Why not just let the minis prebuff or if you really don't want that you need a method to clear all current mini buffs at the same moment the boss becomes active.

Changes like this which only benefit those willing to exploit the system don't look great and ignoring and exploit as obvious and well known as this particular exploit doesn't reflect well on you as a company. Catering to the raid groups? Will you finally "discover" the exploit after a sufficient number of people complete T4/5?

This thread is dead and has been for a while.
The intention here was not to gather feedback, otherwise these changes would never have been pushed to live.


This thread is pure lip service to feedback, that is all. Unfortunately.

[Elaelin]

There is no question our heals are at least roughly the same if not outright better.
There's also no question that Anthems are very powerful too.


So, as far as raid performance, it's a "yes" all the way, through and through, hands down, no questions asked.

It's a "yes" from the raid groups until a sufficient number complete T4/T5 using the exploits built into the changes and then it will be a who cares when SSG takes the exploits away because the right people got their credit while the exploit was allowed.

[Bio-Flame]

It's a "yes" from the raid groups until a sufficient number complete T4/T5 using the exploits built into the changes and then it will be a who cares when SSG takes the exploits away because the right people got their credit while the exploit was allowed.

I agree with you.
Raiders only care for the power level of a skill or class, not if it's fun or not.
As a raider myself, when I am with my raider hat, that is what I want: more power, coulnd't care less if it's fun or not. It's not fun to do the ramp-up phase and then keeping spamming them off cool-down.
And the 15s OMH implemented won't change it.


Luckily, I have some poor sod that picked up mini, so HE has to do that boring spam-fest and I go blue RK.



The problem is, Mini was never like this. It wasn't a spammy class. Mind you, there's nothing wrong with being a spammy button smashing class (looking at you Warden).
It's just that Mini didn't play like this.



And now it does. Despite all the negative feedback.
Why? Because OnnMacMahal wants it. He didn't like how blue Mini played. He's in the 13% category that likes how Minis are now (meaning he didn't enjoy them before).
The 13% >>>>>>> the rest of the Mini player base it seems.



This is the real blunder. Imposing his vision of the Mini, despite players being perfectly happy how Mini used to be and despite the vast majority of players (64%) disliking OnnMacMahal's version of Mini.
I feel sad because I have been playing Minis for more than a decade. Apparently, I was playing it wrong, according to SSG.
Apparently, spamming Anthems off CD is "More engaging".
After all, he is the boss, and we, the players post on the OFFICIAL forums at his request, don't get his time to post here, unlike the players on discord that do get his time.



Go figure...

[DoRonRon]

This whole thing reminds me of other systems that players may find beyond their initial ability: The general dismissal of War-steads for more than getting around in open country with a Sacrifice and with some calling it to be cancelled, failing to see what others get out of them. The Big Battle system that requires advances in it to get any chance to advance it at it's start, only gained from another player's prior advances. Some given every opportunity to learn and mount that initial hurdle but already beyond their interest and ability. No point in making an effort just to prove how wanting you actual are. "Could do it if I wanted to", "If given instruction, could raid if I wanted to". No, it's in the doing where you get Gud!

It takes some effort and practice. We are however to fire off skills that aren't necessarily the skills the situation demands other than to be able to buff anthems that are key to a raid/group environment where fights are lengthier. Are you really going to want to fire off a big 15m AOE heal coda 8 seconds into a fight for a 33% ICotC reset chance in yellow stance? No, not if that would risk heal aggro; in Blue you get to reduce it's CD with ballads in order to queue the next Anthem, whether or not a ballad is the skill required. Fully in Red we have a 50% for our single target coda to reset Crys and Calls, including ICotC but our passive to reduce the CDs of all Crys and Calls doesn't include Improved Cry of the Chorus, WAI or neglect and on a list to fix still, even if just a change to the tool tip? But it hadn't mattered so much until now because we could stack the Anthems on the way to the next pull. Once deep into the fight it's easy to refresh four Anthems by just refreshing your personal Anthem and choice of the other pair, then a fifth after another 20 seconds if you aren't using the means we have to reduce it further. If ofc you have the addons the group demands of you and have the means to monitor them, means that are not so much in the realm of a solo player per say?

Those adept at it will have those buffs up and running quicker than others, those who aren't are healing better than before without figuring out the nuances.

Practicing on my Red Mini with quick missions is about ending the first with all five Anthems up with around the same elapse time (50%) and watching them fall away waiting to hand in and for mobs to appear in the next mission. Steps than only slow the instance lock's appearance. The addition efforts to get them up and running hitting those of us in and out of combat soloing. If one shotting with a ballad we do have the game lag to help us during peak play on Evernight though: Lag-anthems ftw

Seems to be stereotypical gender bias toward those with a nurturing bent who gravitate to a healing role, not a damage role, in order to "prove" their worth to peers. Those who rush to heal a friend in difficulty when if they'd only switch build to nuke instead the job would be done in half the time.

[Hierona]

Again: up until page 17, the feedback was 64% negative, with 23% mixed and only 13% positive.


It's very very low.
For the 13%: good for you.
For the rest? Well, OnnMacMahal has all the power and he is forcing this, correction, he already forced this down our throats, completely disregarding that the vast majority of the feedback was negative.


He does not care because he didn't like the way the Blue Mini played in the first place.
So, he pushed this change on players who have been playing Mini for more than a decade, just because he can.
After all, he is the boss, and we are the players that don't get his time to post here, unlike the players on discord that do get his time.


These kind of negative changes are never to the overall health of an old MMO like LOTRO, nor do they make sense from a financial point of view.
And unfortunately, over the year LOTRO has had quite a few of these kinds of negative changes.

Dude, pls be quiet. You know you have become a meme in the community, almost on Whitedoom level? The minstrel is fine now. Ofcourse I would have done things different too, but minstrel has a 100% spot in instances, and has the same role as before. We know your opinion, so pls be quiet and let this meme page die.

[Fadil]

Dude, pls s t f u. You know you have become a meme in the community, almost on Whitedoom level? The minstrel is fine now. Ofcourse I would have done things different too, but minstrel has a 100% spot in instances, and has the same role as before. We know your opinion, so pls be quiet and let this meme page die.

This doesn’t sound as cool as you think it does, mate.
Raiding in Lotro is lame, compared to for example Wow, and the fact a bunch of 16-year-old nerds sit in a Discord server thinking they are the ####, because they raid higher tiers in Lotro, is in itself funny as hell.

Whitedoom runs a very successful social kin where hundreds of new players (needed for the game) find a spot.
That kin helps new players, people answer questions new players have, make armor for them and overall the kin (at full capacity) is a very kind group of people.
WD runs lower level raids 3x a week to allow people who normally never get to see a raid, to experience raiding.
The fact a bunch of kewl dudes on Discord look down upon that, tells me more about you than about WD or EH.

Anyway, reported and thanks for making a great argument AGAINST Lotro devs attending Ghyn’s Discord server, I guess.
If you even vaguely represent the mentality on Ghyn's, I am actually changing my mind about the usefulness of devs attending that server.

@OnnMacMahal please close this thread. It was useful once, now it’s just a clown show of 3 or 4 people whining and then others reacting angrily towards that.

[Hierona]

This doesn’t sound as cool as you think it does, mate.
Raiding in Lotro is lame, compared to for example Wow, and the fact a bunch of 16-year-old nerds sit in a Discord server thinking they are the ####, because they raid higher tiers in Lotro, is in itself funny as hell.

Whitedoom runs a very successful social kin where hundreds of new players (needed for the game) find a spot.
That kin helps new players, people answer questions new players have, make armor for them and overall the kin (at full capacity) is a very kind group of people.
WD runs lower level raids 3x a week to allow people who normally never get to see a raid, to experience raiding.
The fact a bunch of kewl dudes on Discord look down upon that, tells me more about you than about WD or EH.

Anyway, reported and thanks for making a great argument AGAINST Lotro devs attending Ghyn’s Discord server, I guess.
If you even vaguely represent the mentality on Ghyn's, I am actually changing my mind about the usefulness of devs attending that server.

@OnnMacMahal please close this thread. It was useful once, now it’s just a clown show of 3 or 4 people whining and then others reacting angrily towards that.

Was not talking about Ghyn's discord, cause haven't seen anything there about this. Even on worldchat this guy and whitedoom are a meme, and definitly inside kins. And it wasn't about raiding at all. It is just pathetic that those 4-5 people keep whining for over a month about this and trying their hardest to insult some of the devs. Minstrel was broken and was being exploided. This thread has served it's purpose, so let it die. Don't act like you are so smart, cause you just assumed a lot of things you weren't even right about.

P.S. About the discord and devs, I think it's very usefull that devs are active there. People who actually know about what they talk about are there, and not the forum people who never crossed lvl 50. Forums is great for scenario cause a lot of people who are interested and knowledgable in it are here, but for OnnMM and Orion I would say forums is to abstract and the people who have an idea what is lacking aren't here cause they can't be asked to put up with these people.

[Fadil]

Was not talking about Ghyn's discord, cause haven't seen anything there about this. Even on worldchat this guy and whitedoom are a meme, and definitly inside kins. And it wasn't about raiding at all. It is just pathetic that those 4-5 people keep whining for over a month about this and trying their hardest to insult some of the devs. Minstrel was broken and was being exploided. This thread has served it's purpose, so let it die. Don't act like you are so smart, cause you just assumed a lot of things you weren't even right about.

P.S. About the discord and devs, I think it's very usefull that devs are active there. People who actually know about what they talk about are there, and not the forum people who never crossed lvl 50. Forums is great for scenario cause a lot of people who are interested and knowledgable in it are here, but for OnnMM and Orion I would say forums is to abstract and the people who have an idea what is lacking aren't here cause they can't be asked to put up with these people.

I agree with what youre saying about this thread. But I dont find it very nice to bring up a specific player in this thread.
The fact he's a meme as you suggest tells you more about the community than about this guy.
But yeah let this thread die already.

[Neinda]

Was not talking about Ghyn's discord, cause haven't seen anything there about this. Even on worldchat this guy and whitedoom are a meme, and definitly inside kins. And it wasn't about raiding at all. It is just pathetic that those 4-5 people keep whining for over a month about this and trying their hardest to insult some of the devs. Minstrel was broken and was being exploided. This thread has served it's purpose, so let it die. Don't act like you are so smart, cause you just assumed a lot of things you weren't even right about.

P.S. About the discord and devs, I think it's very usefull that devs are active there. People who actually know about what they talk about are there, and not the forum people who never crossed lvl 50. Forums is great for scenario cause a lot of people who are interested and knowledgable in it are here, but for OnnMM and Orion I would say forums is to abstract and the people who have an idea what is lacking aren't here cause they can't be asked to put up with these people.

Name calling and insulting people for having opinions is completely unnecessary and I suspect not within the forum rules. If you prefer other forums and have higher respect for the opinions of the people in your preferred forums there is no need to be nasty to people here. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to be treated fairly and respectfully here on the forums if they are within the rules. You appear to be happy with the new mini class and I respect your choice and opinion. You are neither right nor wrong. It is your opinion. I hope you find the people that have ideas and opinions that make you happy and comfortable. I hope your day gets better and your in game experience meets your expectations. Having a different opinion and disagreeing is one thing. Insulting others for having a different opinion is a very different creature. Please consider being nice to others in the forums. Explain why you like something instead of telling others they are wrong and you are the only correct opinion. There is no self harm in it.


P.S. IMO, keeping a mini in combat using an LM or Burglar to lock an add down before the boss fight so the mini can pre buff the boss fight sort of implies an exploit. In fact it is more of an exploit than the yellow mini buffing and switching to blue before the fight. The new exploit has much greater impact but SSG knows it exists and allows it so I guess it is an allowable mechanic currently. But again, this is just an opinion. Others consider this activity a game mechanic not an exploit.

There are many things I have considered normal game play in the past that have been removed from the game because SSG felt they were exploits (mini flop to lose agro, piercing cry, yellow mini buffs, LM/cappy pets in aggressive mode, landscape raid groups, etc.). Am I happy with the changes, no and I have voiced my opinion. Do I think you are a complete loser because you happen to like the changes, no. We all have different ideas and opinions. I respect that others may not feel the same way about everything LOTRO that I feel. In the end this is just a game. Most people play a game to have fun.

[Daec]

Name calling and insulting people for having opinions is completely unnecessary. If you prefer other forums and have higher respect for the opinions of the people in your preferred forums there is no need to be nasty to people here. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to be treated fairly and respectfully here on the forums if they are within the rules. I hope you find the people that have ideas and opinions that make you happy and comfortable. I hope your day gets better and your in game experience meets your expectations. Please consider being nice to others. There is no self harm in it.


P.S. IMO, keeping a mini in combat using an LM or Burglar to lock an add down before the boss fight so the mini can pre buff the boss fight sort of implies an exploit. In fact it is more of an exploit than the yellow mini buffing and switching to blue before the fight. The new exploit has much greater impact but SSG knows it exists and allows it so I guess it is an allowable mechanic currently.

Emergent gameplay =/= exploiting

[Neinda]

Emergent gameplay =/= exploiting

LOL, my grandkids calls it "glitching" the game. The preteen set are experts at finding the glitches in the games they play and using those glitches to their advantage. I have been informed on many occasions that glitches are allowed to be used because the game makers put them there. I have done my best to explain the penalties for using glitches but they will learn in their own way.

[Hierona]

Name calling and insulting people for having opinions is completely unnecessary and I suspect not within the forum rules. If you prefer other forums and have higher respect for the opinions of the people in your preferred forums there is no need to be nasty to people here. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to be treated fairly and respectfully here on the forums if they are within the rules. You appear to be happy with the new mini class and I respect your choice and opinion. You are neither right nor wrong. It is your opinion. I hope you find the people that have ideas and opinions that make you happy and comfortable. I hope your day gets better and your in game experience meets your expectations. Having a different opinion and disagreeing is one thing. Insulting others for having a different opinion is a very different creature. Please consider being nice to others in the forums. Explain why you like something instead of telling others they are wrong and you are the only correct opinion. There is no self harm in it.


P.S. IMO, keeping a mini in combat using an LM or Burglar to lock an add down before the boss fight so the mini can pre buff the boss fight sort of implies an exploit. In fact it is more of an exploit than the yellow mini buffing and switching to blue before the fight. The new exploit has much greater impact but SSG knows it exists and allows it so I guess it is an allowable mechanic currently. But again, this is just an opinion. Others consider this activity a game mechanic not an exploit.

There are many things I have considered normal game play in the past that have been removed from the game because SSG felt they were exploits (mini flop to lose agro, piercing cry, yellow mini buffs, LM/cappy pets in aggressive mode, landscape raid groups, etc.). Am I happy with the changes, no and I have voiced my opinion. Do I think you are a complete loser because you happen to like the changes, no. We all have different ideas and opinions. I respect that others may not feel the same way about everything LOTRO that I feel. In the end this is just a game. Most people play a game to have fun.

I am not insulting anyone there, and not called anyone a loser. Merely pointing out this threat has become useless as hell.

Even the replies to my comment don't make sense, that is how toxic this threat has become. "In the end this is just a game." Exactly! So why are you guys having such a witchhunt on one person over just a game? Over f$%^&*( 16 pages or something. You are one of the people who is being toxic here Neinda, and the reason you don't see that is quite worrying. You are one of the 5 that is harrassing, so why give me that lecture? Read your post again, and evaluate to yourself, and the same goes for Bio-Flame and DoRonRon. We heard your opinions, and now be quiet like a good boy.

[Cordovan]

This thread has devolved into personal attacks and fighting between players in addition to naming and shaming and harassment, so will now be closed. It's been good to read everyone's extensive feedback (earlier) in this thread.