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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD2 View Post
    Galadriel faced the same animus from the people on the raft, and Elrond from the Dorfs. Nothing to do with skin color.
    You need to look a bit more closely at that scene: whose idea was it to let her onto the raft? One of the women (and the other one chimes in eventually in the background: 'Pull her up', she says). And who said they should leave her in the water? The men. Who gave her water (the woman who insisted they rescue her), and who took it away? (One of the men). It's not all about skin colour, it's intersectional.

    The problem comes when it's revealed she's an Elf, the face of their oppressors and they all react against that. Guess what was earlier shown to be responsible for that oppression and hence this animosity? The same system that's pushed Galadriel aside, and guess who's being used to represent that, and what they are? White. And male. In case you've forgotten, the whole idea of showing the Elves as an occupying force keeping Men under surveillance and control is made up for the show and has nothing to do with Tolkien.

    With Elrond and Durin it's the silly boys being macho over nothing until it's all settled by Disa. (Another character they made a huge fuss about in the promo material). And when Galadriel gets to Numenor, seems she's going to form common cause with Miriel (another of those characters about whom a big fuss was made in the promo material) except they're both doubtless going to be obstructed at some point by old white dude Pharazon.

    Galadriel is hardly without flaws, for starters. They've made her a bitter, war-mongering, Ahab-like shrew who places no value on the lives of those under her command.
    But she's the Strong Female Lead and so she's Right All Along. Shows like this don't care if Strong Female Lead is unlikable, she's got to be tough and take-charge even if she's abrasive, insubordinate and generally insufferable, Go watch Star Trek Discovery, same damn thing there.

    As for Elrond being a poor friend, it's because he's playing politics first and foremost, more concerned with his own advancement, keeping in with his boss and doing his dirty work (having persuaded Galadriel to go, which was what Gil-galad wanted to keep things quiet). He's gaslighted Galadriel by making her think there's something wrong with her, something broken that could only be fixed in Valinor when really she's so driven because some inner instinct is screaming at her that Sauron is coming for them all. Which of course he is. The idea appears to be that Gil-galad knows that evil's still out there and he doesn't want to risk her rousing it in the same way that the return of the Noldor had led to catastrophic war. What he doesn't know (although he probably should) is that Sauron isn't going to just sit quietly somewhere forever and is subtle and sneaky. It's the Cassandra thing, Galadriel's showing accurate foresight that something awful is going to happen unless they do something to stop it but nobody's listening. (But the Elves knew that foresight was a thing, so they shouldn't be so quick to shush her for making waves - but that would be a Tolkien thing, and this of course ain't Tolkien).

  2. #27
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    projection, the mental process by which people attribute to others what is in their own minds.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mund View Post
    Radhruin, you're the one bringing your own gross politics to this show. The show itself is just depicting characters in a way appropriate to the story, some of whom happen to be not white. At the end of the day you're complaining that some characters in a fantasy show are black. Grow up.
    One black person in the race that has otherwise white characters is a sore thumb. They could have easily put them in one race, maybe dwarves or hobbits to make it more believable. Why not make Durin black instead of the elf?

  4. #29
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    The somewhat funny thing is that actual prehistoric human nomadic groups tended to have an extremely diverse look. Except for skin and hair - both dark most likely - their facial features and body types could be all over modern races range and beyond in one small group.

    So ironically Amazon could do a Black hobbit tribe with a few white actors and be historically accurate. As Miiddle Earth is our world after all.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    One black person in the race that has otherwise white characters is a sore thumb. They could have easily put them in one race, maybe dwarves or hobbits to make it more believable. Why not make Durin black instead of the elf?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bakenellan View Post
    The somewhat funny thing is that actual prehistoric human nomadic groups tended to have an extremely diverse look. Except for skin and hair - both dark most likely - their facial features and body types could be all over modern races range and beyond in one small group.

    So ironically Amazon could do a Black hobbit tribe with a few white actors and be historically accurate. As Miiddle Earth is our world after all.
    It’s not the fact that there are non white actors that gets me. Tim Russ played Tuvok in Star Trek Voyager, and Billy Dee Williams played Harvey Dent in the 1989 Batman and no one blinked an eye.

    What I don’t like is the chest thumping and back patting that Amazon and the cast is doing, it’s like they are acting like they overthrew some kind of white supremest government.

    You never see Morgan Freeman or James Earl Jones doing stuff like that when talking about their films.

    Quiet frankly, some of the cast in Rings of Power seem borderline bigots to me.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidmeetHal View Post
    It’s not the fact that there are non white actors that gets me. Tim Russ played Tuvok in Star Trek Voyager, and Billy Dee Williams played Harvey Dent in the 1989 Batman and no one blinked an eye.

    What I don’t like is the chest thumping and back patting that Amazon and the cast is doing, it’s like they are acting like they overthrew some kind of white supremest government.

    You never see Morgan Freeman or James Earl Jones doing stuff like that when talking about their films.

    Quiet frankly, some of the cast in Rings of Power seem borderline bigots to me.
    And they're not really great actors/characters either. Arondir? Quite boring. Bronwyn? Eh. Hobbits? So-so or annoying. Disa? I guess she is okay, surprisingly, but nothing phenomenal so far.

    Compare with Corlys in House of the Dragon - it is a blatant race swap and his hair hardly match his beard which is weird but by the end of second episode I'm hooked. Loved the acting there. Overall House of the Dragon (though it has some issues) is so much better than RoP and far better pacing.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by TesalionLortus View Post
    Compare with Corlys in House of the Dragon - it is a blatant race swap and his hair hardly match his beard which is weird but by the end of second episode I'm hooked. Loved the acting there. Overall House of the Dragon (though it has some issues) is so much better than RoP and far better pacing.
    According to the lore-monkeys they can wangle that, because we don't know who Corlys' mother was. So if she was from the Summer Isles, there you go.

  8. #33
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    Steve Toussaint, a Black actor who plays a wealthy naval commander in the current “Game of Thrones” prequel, “House of the Dragon,” spoke to this debate recently when he revealed he’s been criticized by White fans for being cast in the HBO series.

    “They are happy with a dragon flying,” Toussaint said. “They’re happy with white hair and violet-colored eyes. But a rich Black guy? That’s beyond the pale.”

    CNN: When ‘wokeness’ comes to Middle-earth: Why some say diverse casting ruins the new ‘Lord of the Rings’ series
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  9. #34
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    In that case, Corlys is far more plausible and as I said - great, engaging acting. Just felt like something about his hair didn't exactly match so looks a bit silly and off, takes getting used to.

    Either way, so tired of these articles with the authors and actors referring to racism and criticizing genuine fan critique. It doesn't take genius to notice you might be taking leaps with the source material for no other reason than identity politics and that it's bad if it doesn't really have much substance to it/good in-universe reasoning behind it. You ought to at least respect someone may not like it because they have actual reasons to, in many cases, but no, they'll of course play the racism card and act like they're victims. I respect actors for roles they play but all that noise that basically states "it's okay to come with whatever in whichever shape and form in every story as long as it brings us diversity" is despicable and narcissistic, also the reason why entertainment is getting ####t*er with worse writing and tired premises, directed by hacks, even though we should be in golden age of creativity right now.

  10. #35
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    Some thoughts:

    Michael Coren should be able to do better than that. Like saying "it's fantasy" is meaningless, as any well-written fantasy has a consistent setting and scenario, an internal logic, societies with their own norms. Diversity always has a context, which varies according to the setting rather than the real world (much less the modern one). A European-style 'medieval' setting is naturally going to have an overwhelming majority of European-looking people in it (varying according to location, who they trade with, if it's a travel hub such as a port city or not, its history etc.), and typically you'd expect European-looking people in charge. Kind of like the real thing from back in the day. There could always be exceptions (Moorish Spain was a real-life example) but they'd be written into the setting.

    That brings me to what Steve Toussaint said: with actors in popular shows these days it's hard to tell if something is genuinely their own opinion or a talking point they've been told to use, so I'm taking it with a grain of salt. That said, it's a typical soundbite, it oversimplifies and it misses the point. We're talking Westeros, there (Western European in inspiration and in terms of who lives there). We're talking hereditary nobility, not just being rich. And noble families overwhelmingly tended to arrange marriages either within their own extended family (or sometimes closer, too close even!) or with other noble families, to keep all that lovely wealth and power where they wanted it to be. That's the actual context. Being all "but these people have all this entrenched power and privilege and they don't look like me!" entirely misses the point. Of course they do. Not everyone gets to play, it isn't any kind of fair. Trying to force any sort of real-world fairness onto an imagined society that's hugely unfair on its own terms and plays favourites all the time is a weird concept and inherently contradictory.

    And as ever, complaining about not being directly represented among the nobility in a European-style medieval setting makes about as much sense as it would to complain like that about a setting based on medieval China or India.

    With RoP it's different. We've been through the whole business of where Tolkien got his ideas from before so I won't rehash that, but the tokenism the show displays is really just one symptom of the lousy way it's written - it's one of *those* shows, where the IP has been hijacked as a platform for clumsy messaging and the real harm comes from how they've mauled, mangled or outright ignored the setting and characters to tell the sort of story they want to tell, losing all the depth in the process. And don't get me started on all the nonsense the cast have been encouraged to spout to the media, because that simply reeks of Amazon's publicists telling them what to say.

    As for this:

    N.K. Jemison, an acclaimed Black fantasy and science fiction writer, has criticized Tolkien's depiction of "orcs," the dusky-hued, villainous foot soldiers who terrorize hobbits, elves and other pale-faced heroes. She said they are depicted as "faceless savage dark hordes" that exist so the good guys can "gleefully go genocidal on them."

    I am sick and tired of stuff like that being quoted not just uncritically but spun as 'withering criticism'. Orcs aren't coded to represent anyone in particular, they represent the cruelty and brutality to which all men can be reduced by war (something Tolkien had seen first-hand). The actual POCs in LOTR are treated differently, as human beings (with many being implied to be unwilling victims of Sauron's malice) and not monsters. And look at some of the biggest villains: Saruman. Wormtongue. The Mouth of Sauron. Some at least of the Nazgul. What have they got in common?

    The article's author purposely limits his choice of people who'defend Tolkien as-is to Louis Markos (a professor at Houston Baptist University) plus some guy on RedState, a conservative blog and assorted nameless people who complain about things being 'woke' (I know who he means there). Never mind all the Black commentators who've said they don't think Tolkien benefits from forced diversity, no, because that might be a bit more difficult to wave away. It's not a purely political thing, stop pretending it is.

    And as for this gem:

    "Tolkien was a White man who lived in a tweedy, virtually all-White world as a professor of Anglo-Saxon in early to mid-20th century England. But just as Tolkien wrote "not all those who wander are lost" about an enigmatic Middle-earth hero, his background could be deceiving."

    ,,.and while it goes on to point out that Tolkien wasn't racist, it'd only have been 'deceiving' to someone who'd stereotype people based on their background alone and simply assume he was. Which isn't something anyone should be doing.

    Plenty more there to pick apart but I really can't be bothered. Poorly written article, CNN, I am disappoint

  11. #36
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    Simply put, when the origins and developers of the stories are most definitely 'white' then the 'others', the 'enemies' are going to be 'black'. Or for example if the books were generated by people and stories native to central and southern Africa then the 'others' would be 'white'. It's just the way traditional stories and tales are developed.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by auximenes View Post
    Simply put, when the origins and developers of the stories are most definitely 'white' then the 'others', the 'enemies' are going to be 'black'. Or for example if the books were generated by people and stories native to central and southern Africa then the 'others' would be 'white'. It's just the way traditional stories and tales are developed.
    It depends where external threats traditionally come from and what they look like. So for Western Europe, that's east or south, with 'barbaric' peoples from out of the hinterlands or off the steppe, and civilised but warlike peoples from out of North Africa and the Near East. So that's more or less what you get in LOTR. Various peoples, various appearances.

    When it comes to the Orcs they come from another direction: under the ground, with its traditional association with darkness and death. They're meant to typically be sallow-skinned (tinged an unhealthy-looking yellowish or brownish, the sort of colour people go when they're ill) - you can extend that to them being pallid or greyish or for Uruks, like in the movies, being corpse-black (an unsettling colour as you instinctively don't associate it with anything alive, so it appears unnatural on anything that's walking around). Another trick you can use to make them look unsettling is to make their skin look like it's dry and pulled tight, like on a corpse that's started to mummify. The aim's to drop them into the Uncanny Valley so they look 'wrong'.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    ...Orcs aren't coded to represent anyone in particular, they represent the cruelty and brutality to which all men can be reduced by war
    I agree on this point- the books don't make orcs seem like black people. There were a few moments in Jackson's films where they would give certain orcs dreadlocks and really dark skin (especially Uruks). In a cast like Jackson's where every good character was white, those orcs were occasionally problematic. One thing I really like about the RoP orcs is they look much more fantasy-monster-inspired from what I've seen so far. Keeps them firmly in the fantasy realm with no human race-coding even hinted at.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halphast View Post
    There were a few moments in Jackson's films where they would give certain orcs dreadlocks and really dark skin (especially Uruks). In a cast like Jackson's where every good character was white, those orcs were occasionally problematic.

    One thing I really like about the RoP orcs is they look much more fantasy-monster-inspired from what I've seen so far. Keeps them firmly in the fantasy realm with no human race-coding even hinted at.
    Apart from what you just said about some PJ's uruks I can't imagine any "race-coding" no matter what they do - they're just orcs, nothing to insinuate here and only insane people would do that. But even what you said of some dreadlocks... they are okay - an aesthetic choice that no one should forbid because it has absolutely no association with anything super specific (there are more cultures throughout human history that used to do that, for example, many of them unrelated, and it would be no different than taking creative inspiration from something else nobody never complains about/frames as inappropriate choice, such as Egyptian pyramids or Japanese hairstyles)

    RoP orcs we've seen from trailers and posters look pretty much PJ's style, just a bit fancier and with modern polish. With the exception of the weird Mole People digging those tunnels but I guess that's not regular orcs.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halphast View Post
    I agree on this point- the books don't make orcs seem like black people. There were a few moments in Jackson's films where they would give certain orcs dreadlocks and really dark skin (especially Uruks).
    Can't say that I remember that but in any case dreadlocks aren't and never have been exclusive to Black culture. And the Uruks are not only an obviously unnatural colour, but they look and sound like what they are, something inspired by rough, brutal squaddies (who in the movies have really rough London accents, no less) and the combination of that and how their faces look puts them firmly in the same 'European' context as LOTR generally. In short, they're home-grown monsters, as it were, absolutely not meant as any sort of coded reference to non-European peoples. There was no big fuss at the time because it was really that obvious. So it's a huge stretch to call that 'problematic', you'd have to really, really want to be offended.

    RoP has ordinary Orcs, the sort who aren't happy in direct sunlight. (And it seems like this could be a plot point in what's to come).

  16. #41
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    Well, to be really pedantical there were some racist implications in how orcs were depicted, though you'll probably not notice that in the book unless yoa are looking too hard. During the debacle of the first attempt of putting LoTR to screen Tolkien rather exasperately wrote:
    "The Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the 'human' form seen in Elves or Men. They are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types." (Letters, No.210)

    So it was a deliberate play on rasist perceptions of an average contemporary European reader.
    There is also the case of Black speech really resembling a Turkish language. (I've known an Azerbajani girl named Nazgul - though to be fair another girl was named Ainur - she was from Kazakhstan, also the Turkish people)

    There is needless to say that Tolkien never thought that orcs were Mongols or vice versa. Like already pointed they are the representation of evil in men and as he wrote elsewhere, "there are orcs on both sides" (meaning WW2).

    I think it is understandable that later productions moved to use more monstrous orcish forms hardly human at all. Nevertheless it slipped into another unfortunate implication - a monstrous enemy may be assumed as a final stage of dehumanization of the opponent which happens all the time in real life...

  17. #42
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    It has always seemed incongruous to me that orcs are considered evil, but to me evil implies some kind of choice or moral agency that orcs show no evidence of having.

    It's like saying a virus (which isn't even alive) or a vicious animal that preys on people is evil.

    Like a virus or predator, orcs seem to have no way to be anything different from what they are.

    In a very real sense, they're victims deserving pity.
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  18. #43
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    You must be rather blind or extremely biased, if you cannot see that this is the work of a extreme feminist producer with a real life political agenda. She has even admitted that herself, so stop denying the critics that points to that.
    Its a script based on feelings, rather than logical buildup of characters and storylines.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranaan View Post
    Its a script based on feelings, rather than logical buildup of characters and storylines.
    Maybe you haven't noticed, but men often approach interpersonal dynamics and conflict from the starting point of logic, while women tend to do so on the basis of feelings.

    When a man relates a problem he's facing to one of his male friends, he's often looking for advice or insight on the situation or his actions.

    When a woman relates a problem she's facing to one of her female friends, she's often looking for empathy and the reassurance that her friend understands how she feels.

    Of course, these are generalizations and don't apply to all men or all women, or in all cases, but there is truth in them.

    There isn't a single valid approach to story-telling or script-writing.

    I am not suggesting that I like what I've seen of RoP, by the way. I just think the lion's share of inappropriate political noise is being injected and amplified by critics rather than the show itself.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bakenellan View Post
    Well, to be really pedantical there were some racist implications in how orcs were depicted, though you'll probably not notice that in the book unless yoa are looking too hard. During the debacle of the first attempt of putting LoTR to screen Tolkien rather exasperately wrote:
    "The Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the 'human' form seen in Elves or Men. They are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types." (Letters, No.210)
    Yes, and where he strays into racially insensitive stuff like that we quietly ignore him. He does something similar once in LOTR when it comes to how the Men of Gondor see guys from Far Harad with whom they're unfamiliar. It's to do with how the people in the story (who are proxy 'Europeans') see things but obviously nowadays you just wouldn't write like that.

    There is also the case of Black speech really resembling a Turkish language.
    Tolkien said it wasn't intentionally modelled on anything. Coincidences are always possible.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranaan View Post
    You must be rather blind or extremely biased, if you cannot see that this is the work of a extreme feminist producer with a real life political agenda. She has even admitted that herself, so stop denying the critics that points to that.
    Its a script based on feelings, rather than logical buildup of characters and storylines.
    That's why it's so feminist. I didn't know a woman produced this, but this is the point that upsets me the most. From Galadriel to Disa they all seem superior.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    That's why it's so feminist. I didn't know a woman produced this, but this is the point that upsets me the most. From Galadriel to Disa they all seem superior.
    Putting aside for a moment the question of why "superior" female characters should upset you, what about the obviously evil female villain from the trailers, played by Bridie Sisson...?
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD2 View Post
    Putting aside for a moment the question of why "superior" female characters should upset you, what about the obviously evil female villain from the trailers, played by Bridie Sisson...?
    You've already been told why, because Galadriel is Mary Sue meets Karen so she's an annoying character regardless and to have *all* the female characters being presented as superior and *all* the white male characters we've seen thus far being significantly flawed, inferior or morally compromised in some way is immensely tedious. The only men who get a pass there are the 'Elf of Colour' and the 'Hobbit of Colour', because of the intersectional thing.

    If Briidie Sisson is playing yet another powerful female character (or given the way she looks, the character ticks some other diversity box) that hardly contradicts the general point. From their point of view that might make her a preferable foil for Galadriel than yet another evil male character would be. In any case, we don't know what her role is yet.
    Last edited by Radhruin_EU; Sep 05 2022 at 01:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD2 View Post
    Putting aside for a moment the question of why "superior" female characters should upset you, what about the obviously evil female villain from the trailers, played by Bridie Sisson...?
    See below. Radhruin says it perfectly. Btw, I'm a woman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    You've already been told why, because Galadriel is Mary Sue meets Karen so she's an annoying character regardless and to have *all* the female characters being presented as superior and *all* the white male characters we've seen thus far being significantly flawed, inferior or morally compromised in some way is immensely tedious. The only men who get a pass there are the 'Elf of Colour' and the 'Hobbit of Colour', because of the intersectional thing.

    If Briidie Sisson is playing yet another powerful female character (or given the way she looks, the character ticks some other diversity box) that hardly contradicts the general point. From their point of view that might make her a preferable foil for Galadriel than yet another evil male character would be. In any case, we don't know what her role is yet.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    You've already been told why, because Galadriel is Mary Sue meets Karen so she's an annoying character regardless and to have *all* the female characters being presented as superior and *all* the white male characters we've seen thus far being significantly flawed, inferior or morally compromised in some way is immensely tedious. The only men who get a pass there are the 'Elf of Colour' and the 'Hobbit of Colour', because of the intersectional thing.
    There is nothing flawed about Elrond in what we've seen (apart from his social intercourse with Dorfs). Elves are not Vulcans; they have feelings, emotions and even ambitions. That he was an underling of Gil-galad who eventually (presumably thanks to serving him well) rose to become a lord in his own right is firmly rooted in the lore.

    Galadriel, obviously, is deeply flawed and one-dimensional.

    Of the residents of the Southland village, both the inn-keeper (male) and the herbalist (female) are morally fine. That the herbalist gets more screentime is to give Arondir an (awkward) romantic interest, I suppose.

    The Harfoot women, while well-intentioned, are flighty and placing their people at risk through their naivete (essentially all the Harfoots, err, Harfeet?, are - as with hobbits in canon - innocent at heart, but suspicious - for good reason - of outsiders).

    Disa also comes across as a friendly ditz, and could (if one were determined to be as uncharitable as the critics) be described as a gold-digger (in both the literal and figurative senses of the word).

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    If Briidie Sisson is playing yet another powerful female character (or given the way she looks, the character ticks some other diversity box) that hardly contradicts the general point. From their point of view that might make her a preferable foil for Galadriel than yet another evil male character would be. In any case, we don't know what her role is yet.
    So when women appear favorably (if you squint and ignore their less perfect aspects) it proves the show is "feminist", and when they're obviously evil and threatening, that proves it too? OK...
    Last edited by LagunaD2; Sep 05 2022 at 07:36 PM.
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