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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD2 View Post
    There is nothing flawed about Elrond in what we've seen
    Not "flawed" in a way that you could point out his rude behavior or bad sword fighting skills. But the way he is immediately put into the position when he (and Gil-galad) try to get rid of Galadriel, don't believe her/ignore her... That's a flaw and being put in the negative light (sure sure, they have Elrond say she is his friend and all that, but how they frame the entire situation, with Galadriel's quest which was needless and is pretty ridiculous anyway, speak for itself). Granted, this negative impression of them doesn't work that well when Galadriel herself comes across SOOOO badly and insufferable whenever she is on screen, but make no mistake, some flawed impression when compared with Galadriel is certainly what they were going for with these males here.


    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD2 View Post
    So when women appear favorably (if you squint and ignore their less perfect aspects) it proves the show is "feminist", and when they're obviously evil and threatening, that proves it too? OK...
    Radh has already said it but you don't get. It's not about some semantics, it's about the entire balance and the balance is obviously very skewed here. Common, who are you kidding - they made female versions of Frodo and Sam, and these females will have their own wizard type. Can't get more obvious than that what the intentions are. Or that scene with Bronwyn slaying an orc? (orcs that haven't been seen for ages, and this one was some weird mole type cave-clork creature at that). There is no taking a breath here, developing the characters, Bronwyn rushing to embrace her son maybe, show some trauma after the fight, let them take a breath and exchange a few words, oh and maybe let us see the body of this orc because the scene was so shaky and I haven't seen a thing. NO. There is just... an abrupt awful cut and transition so she can immediately display the head before the stupid males and "take charge". You can't make this sh*t up how awful it feels while watching. So it's not even too subtle with many of these things, just in your face and the entire thing - apparently - is constructed around this silly premise and signaling... while good cinematography, development and lore are taking a backseat here. Briidie Sisson will be just another ingredient in this equation, no doubt. Oh and there are also rumors she (and the others) are actually elven zealots, not men, so I don't even know what to expect of THAT if that's accurate...

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD2 View Post
    There is nothing flawed about Elrond in what we've seen (apart from his social intercourse with Dorfs). Elves are not Vulcans; they have feelings, emotions and even ambitions. That he was an underling of Gil-galad who eventually (presumably thanks to serving him well) rose to become a lord in his own right is firmly rooted in the lore.
    He's overly ambitious and 'political' and he puts doing Gil-galad's bidding and hence his own advancement over his supposedly dear friend Galadriel. He's complicit in Gil-galad wanting to shut Galadriel up and make her go away. He gaslights Galadriel into thinking there's something wrong with her that can only be fixed in Valinor. So as a male character he's being shown to be manipulative and chasing power, and representing the male hierarchy which wants to suppress the Strong Female Lead.

    Don't bother bringing lore into it, they're routinely ignoring it. Elrond's heritage should make him a more significant figure from the get-go, but not here. If this were 'really' Middle-earth then Galadriel's whole bitter revenge quest would make no sense because Finrod wouldn't be truly dead, he'd have been given a new body in Valinor. She'd doubtless miss him deeply, but could take comfort in that. That would make revenge for a death less of a motive than it might otherwise be. You don't ever see 'real' Galadriel acting all crazy over the death of Finrod, although Sauron was responsible for it.

    Galadriel, obviously, is deeply flawed and one-dimensional.
    They don't see that sort of behaviour as flawed in a female character. They see it as strong and assertive. This isn't the first series with an unlikable Strong Female Lead of this kind, it's a trope; movies have been known to do this as well.

    Of the residents of the Southland village, both the inn-keeper (male) and the herbalist (female) are morally fine. That the herbalist gets more screentime is to give Arondir an (awkward) romantic interest, I suppose.
    Of course Bronwyn is, because she's a woman and she's one of the characters they've been keen to highlight. The men are unpleasant and they don't believe her about what had happened to the other village until later when she shows them that Orc's head. And then she's all very take-charge and they're meek and cowed in the face of yet another Strong Female Character. (She also seems weirdly unfazed after her ordeal - anyone normal would have been shaking like a leaf).

    The Harfoot women, while well-intentioned, are flighty and placing their people at risk through their naivete (essentially all the Harfoots, err, Harfeet?, are - as with hobbits in canon - innocent at heart, but suspicious - for good reason - of outsiders).
    Yes, and? Hobbits are kind-hearted, and Nori is young and inquisitive. That works just fine.

    Disa also comes across as a friendly ditz, and could (if one were determined to be as uncharitable as the critics) be described as a gold-digger (in both the literal and figurative senses of the word).
    She's the one who stops the silly men arguing and gets them to sit down and act like grown-ups.

    So when women appear favorably (if you squint and ignore their less perfect aspects) it proves the show is "feminist", and when they're obviously evil and threatening, that proves it too? OK...
    I said it was intersectional, not exclusively feminist. Hence the emphasis on people of colour as well. But it's not that in itself, it's the way the characters who fit the bill there are over-emphasised at the overwhelming expense of white male characters. There's an obvious agenda there, and it's all the more heavy-handed given that Tolkien included strong female characters in the Silmarillion as well as LOTR. They're wildly overcompensating.

    As for villainy, why would you imagine they'd leave that solely to the men? There's always room for a stylish female villain - like I said earlier, if she's a foil for the Strong Female Lead and will eventually be thwarted by her (and in the meantime Strong Female Villain just plain owns any man who tries to stop her) that wouldn't contradict anything. But like I said, we don't know quite what the role of Bridie Sisson's character will be and her appearance makes that all the more uncertain.

  3. #53
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    The Amazon show is a failure

    There are so many negative reviews that they are being edited off Amazon. They took a world famous story and made it politically correct with boring characters and story. Amazing how they could do so bad. The old movies were much better. I doubt the producer even read the books.

  4. #54
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    Gil-galad, and hence Elrond, have good reasons to try to get Galadriel out of her command.

    She's behaving irrationally, disobeying orders, getting people under her command killed, and accomplishing nothing.

    Whether anyone in Middle-earth knows that the Valar made an exception for Finrod is unclear. According to Tolkien, Finarfin, their father, would have known, though. Had G made it back to Valinor, she would have been able to see her father, and brother, again, and be relieved of her grief. So there was no gaslighting going on.

    Elrond didn't argue about anything with the rude, crude Dorf snowflake. Once the Dorf explained why he was being uppity, Elrond was nothing but contrite (despite the fact that Dorfs are not actually people). That Elrond would prostrate himself before an abomination created in an act of sacrilege speaks well for his humility, if little else.
    Dagoreth (Warden) and Belechannas (Lore-master) of Arkenstone

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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD2 View Post
    Gil-galad, and hence Elrond, have good reasons to try to get Galadriel out of her command.
    Yeah because her solo raid hardly makes sense in the lore anyway (Sauron being a powerful demigod and all that) + she is acting like a psycho who might hurt someone along the way. But that's like trying to look for logic behind the unbelievable concept/characterization that is all without logic.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD2 View Post
    Gil-galad, and hence Elrond, have good reasons to try to get Galadriel out of her command.

    She's behaving irrationally, disobeying orders, getting people under her command killed, and accomplishing nothing.

    Whether anyone in Middle-earth knows that the Valar made an exception for Finrod is unclear. According to Tolkien, Finarfin, their father, would have known, though. Had G made it back to Valinor, she would have been able to see her father, and brother, again, and be relieved of her grief. So there was no gaslighting going on.
    I think you're missing something huge, there: in the show's version of things there is no Kin-slaying. That means no Doom of Mandos and the High Elves aren't Exiles. So talking about an exception for Finrod is missing the point (and in any case, lore-wise how long any of the slain High Elves had to stay in the Halls depended on what they'd done and it wasn't as if Finrod had been particularly naughty like Feanor, his sons and their fanatical followers; he'd been slain saving Beren and that should have been worth some time off for good behaviour, at the very least).

    There is no hint in the show that slain Elves were re-embodied in Valinor. Elrond basically tells her that if she goes to Valinor she'll be healed of her pain, not that she'll be able to see her brother again. She's acting like her brother is really, truly dead and that would be the only thing that would make her vendetta against Sauron meaningful. It's useless to bring lore into it unless it's some bit of lore we can clearly see that the show-runners have actually stuck with. And that brings me back to what I said earlier, that the reason he's gaslighting her is that he's making her think there's something wrong with her when there's clearly a distinct possibility that Sauron is still out there somewhere, and Gil-galad just doesn't want anyone looking any more. for fear they might actually find him and cause another war. Letting her run around looking for Sauron had kept her out of his hair for a long time but once it starts looking like she might be getting somewhere, nope, pack her off to Valinor sharpish before things get out of hand.

  7. #57
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    Yes, you're right that there is very little detail about the First Age (and before) in the Appendices.

    But the show could be consistent with the missing material without actually introducing it.

    Also, two things can be true at once. It may make sense to follow-up possible leads on Sauron, but not in the reckless, obsessive way G is pursuing it. And clearly there *is* something wrong with her, even if she is right.

    In fact, she is behaving a lot like Feanor: putting her people in danger and rebelling against authority, in service of a personal vendetta.
    Dagoreth (Warden) and Belechannas (Lore-master) of Arkenstone

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  8. #58
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    A well-written take on things:


  9. #59
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    Heard some spoilers from episode 8 script/leak. Not very big spoiler but... the "mystics" (the squad of Bridie Sisson) are all women. LOL. Also, the finale is basically them saying (about the Stranger) "He is not Sauron. He is the other. Istar." Also, it would appear the stars he is looking for would be in Rhun or something, and I guess all the Harfoots will follow him to Rhun... but all of that for next season...

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by TesalionLortus View Post
    Heard some spoilers from episode 8 script/leak. Not very big spoiler but... the "mystics" (the squad of Bridie Sisson) are all women. LOL. Also, the finale is basically them saying (about the Stranger) "He is not Sauron. He is the other. Istar." Also, it would appear the stars he is looking for would be in Rhun or something, and I guess all the Harfoots will follow him to Rhun... but all of that for next season...
    You could see that coming, as there were two more of them in the background in the trailer. (I'm going to call that character Mystic Meg from now on). And they haven't been exactly subtle about the Stranger being a Wizard. As for the stars, that immediately made me think of the line "...even into the far countries of Rhun and Harad where the stars are strange."

    Like I said the other day, also predictable that the hobbits would end up going on a mission. Quest. Thing with Weirdy Beardy. And if that's episode 8 we'll then have to wait until at least 2024 to find out what happens next. (So the Next Big Thing will likely be War of the Rohirrim, which is due out in about 18 months).

  11. #61
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    I've been looking at reviews and interviews from both sides of the conflict, and it actually is a conflict. And boy, are both sides vicious. One side is saying that the white people have been entitled enough and need to be weeded out of entertainment because of white supremacy, and the other side is saying that the woke crowd cares nothing about source material and is only concerned with skin color and gender and nothing else.

    And both sides are waving the race card around. I've seen this on review sites, the Microsoft news page, and YouTube.

    Personally, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, and both sides need to dial it back a bit.

    It reminds me of the Red Scare in the 50s.


    One thing I'm wondering is why did Amazon decide to allocate a billion dollars into this? Even if it wasn't woke with an agenda and followed the lore, I cannot see how they could make back a billion bucks from a made for Amazon TV show.
    "Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your children when you wanted to."

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidmeetHal View Post

    One thing I'm wondering is why did Amazon decide to allocate a billion dollars into this? Even if it wasn't woke with an agenda and followed the lore, I cannot see how they could make back a billion bucks from a made for Amazon TV show.
    Maybe Bezos has a favorite niece who wrote a fanfic?

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidmeetHal View Post
    Personally, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, and both sides need to dial it back a bit.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidmeetHal View Post
    One thing I'm wondering is why did Amazon decide to allocate a billion dollars into this? Even if it wasn't woke with an agenda and followed the lore, I cannot see how they could make back a billion bucks from a made for Amazon TV show.
    One way to look at it is in terms of the number of subscription months.

    $1B is 67M subscription months at $15/month, or 13M subscription months per season.

    Supposing the series is on for three months a year, and people subscribe only while it's running, that would be 4M people who subscribe to watch it and keep their subs active only while it's on.

    That doesn't seem completely implausible - if the series is well-received. The first two episodes reportedly had 25M viewers. I doubt they'll sustain that (and only a minority are probably new subscribers), but it's not a bad start.

    If the people who join to watch it keep their subs year-round to watch other content, then it becomes a lot easier to pay the bill.

    And to some extent, adding Prime members will bring in other (non-video) business that they might not otherwise see.
    Dagoreth (Warden) and Belechannas (Lore-master) of Arkenstone

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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD2 View Post


    One way to look at it is in terms of the number of subscription months.

    $1B is 67M subscription months at $15/month, or 13M subscription months per season.

    Supposing the series is on for three months a year, and people subscribe only while it's running, that would be 4M people who subscribe to watch it and keep their subs active only while it's on.

    That doesn't seem completely implausible - if the series is well-received. The first two episodes reportedly had 25M viewers. I doubt they'll sustain that (and only a minority are probably new subscribers), but it's not a bad start.

    If the people who join to watch it keep their subs year-round to watch other content, then it becomes a lot easier to pay the bill.

    And to some extent, adding Prime members will bring in other (non-video) business that they might not otherwise see.
    That's a good point.
    "Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your children when you wanted to."

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidmeetHal View Post
    I've been looking at reviews and interviews from both sides of the conflict

    And both sides are waving the race card around.

    Personally, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, and both sides need to dial it back a bit.
    That's a bold claim. Could you link to one of such articles? Asking out of curiosity because honestly I read some things and even tried to talk to people (who like it) and not even once I came across a decent argument that was actually an argument. It was either 1) identity politics, but not paying attention to storytelling 2) outright dismissal of those who criticize it (or me personally) as a racist, something mainstream media/Amazon lackeys do all the time and it's all utter lies, they're just trying to divide people and the fandom 3) lack of any arguments beyond "I like it, you don't need to like it, but I like it but I can't really tell why I like it and what its merits are"

    Which makes me think the truth isn't "somewhere in the middle" at all. It's just that one side of this conflict is, in large percentage, essentially playing the devil's advocate for no good reason, as far as merits of the show go (in terms of its storytelling, cinematography and all that, which should be the subject of the discussion). They would be doing it for various reasons, some of them because of the ideology (and they indeed do not care AT ALL about writing, what matters is identity politics and representation, no matter how it's done, because the point is these people would never criticize anything that includes said representation thus their opinion is void), some because they hardly know their Tolkien so can't immediately point out all the lore atrocities and their standards for TV (apparently) are extremely low to begin with so some of the silly things on this show don't bother them in the slightest (but this doesn't invalidate our claims that the show is bad... if only people with such low standards see no problem with it), or some of them - even those who know their Tolkien - are doing it because it's the only new Tolkien thing we got atm (essentially) so they "want to stay positive, yada yada, I'm not listening, look they mentioned Feanor once, that's so cool, also I'm going to self-insert my own headcanons to explain away all the hack writing and make sense of this" but that's more like lying to yourself, they're not pointing out it's merits in a fair, constructive way, just cherry picking a few bits here and there (and fixing the hack writing with their own forced headcanons but none of this is actually showed on the screen), as if that was enough to claim this is a GOOD show. So I'm really interested to see ANY decent, well-articulated praise of the show... not to mention as an adaptation of Tolkien...

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by TesalionLortus View Post
    So I'm really interested to see ANY decent, well-articulated praise of the show... not to mention as an adaptation of Tolkien...
    theonering.net: Amazon's 'Rings of Power' is Awesome for the Casual Fan

    I don't necessarily agree with his taste in every detail, but it's a perfectly reasonable perspective.
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by TesalionLortus View Post
    That's a bold claim.
    I don't think it's a bold claim at all. Amazon itself helped frame the controversy as "good guys" vs "racists" with their initial press releases, not to mention the "selectivity" of deletions, bans and shadow-bans on the Prime Video YT channel. And never underestimate the tendency of people to entrench when they sense a fight. People can go to very strange places when entrenched, places they normally would have considered ridiculous or abhorrent.

    About half of the replies to my critical comments about the trailers fell into two categories: 1) Those who were all too eager to add "wokeness" and "feminist agenda" to the charges, and 2) those who were all too eager to call me a "bot" or "racist"... in spite of the fact that I never touched on casting decisions at all. I stopped posting eventually, not because I'd been shadow-banned a couple of times for being critical of various things, but because it became clear that very few people actually wanted to discuss the bits of lore we got in the trailers. Most just wanted to "score points" for "their side," whatever that side was (or so it seemed).

    I'm sorry that I don't have anything harder than anecdotal evidence - the media involved is... "fluid," let' say. But I suspect I'm not the only one who felt like corn being milled.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD2 View Post
    theonering.net: Amazon's 'Rings of Power' is Awesome for the Casual Fan

    I don't necessarily agree with his taste in every detail, but it's a perfectly reasonable perspective.
    Don't make me laugh please, if I wanted to dissect that one from the co-owner of One Ring net, there would be plenty to mention, for example how he mentions an eagle beaten by a Fell Beast as "good visuals" except it was split second and what we should have gotten are dragons (the Fell Beast "model" kind of came with the territory and WETA, but they hadn't put any extra effort to show cool dragon action huh? how is that impressive?).

    But overall, if it's not shilling (because you can never tell with One Ring net) I can very easily classify that one as playing the devil's advocate for no good reason because they have extremely low standards.

    The guy is like too honest about that fact...

    You know you got it right when…
    The biggest compliments I can give this series are twofold:


    I did not look at my phone the entire time. This is pretty impressive, considering the Penn State game was very close at halftime and I had relatives and friends dinging my phone and watch. The ‘tap’ of the watch was going mad at some points during the show, but I was so engaged in the show, I didn’t bother. And also…I ALWAYS look at my phone during shows.
    I usually will make myself some popcorn during shows. I’ll get up, walk away from the TV with my headphones on and watch from the kitchen. Nope – not in this case. Popcorn was only made when the first episode ended.
    You can't make this sh*t up, it's laughable. That's how low his expectations/standards are. From the most expensive tv show in history and based on Tolkien at that. (last time I checked there are lots of people who actually pause their shows if they have something else to do, whether good or bad ones, so saying a show is good because you never pause when you go for food is a laughable argument and a huge red flag about someone as a viewer)

    So no, that's not the kind of article I meant, it doesn't provide any legit points and doesn't prove that "both sides are right" and there is a balance of arguments here
    Last edited by TesalionLortus; Sep 07 2022 at 08:06 AM.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by TesalionLortus View Post
    Which makes me think the truth isn't "somewhere in the middle" at all.
    It isn't. While there are real trolls out there (because there always are), they're very much in the minority but they provide an excuse for tarring us with the same brush. Amazon did a preemptive attack on fans early on (reminiscent of what's happened before with other IPs such as Star Wars) and that set the tone. It's all a distraction from the real issues RoP has, in particular its poor writing (if it were completely stand alone, it'd still be bad). A case of "never mind the content, feel the message" if you will.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bauglin View Post
    And never underestimate the tendency of people to entrench when they sense a fight

    About half of the replies to my critical comments about the trailers fell into two categories
    That's why I said, places where discussions make sense, where it's a bit bigger wall of text, that's what I meant and what I was interested in. Key word "comment" - or tweet, or something like that. It doesn't matter whether it's RoP or discussion about whether a shop with strawberries should be opened on Sundays - it's always like this, people will offend each other and overall be rude/dismissive in one way or another, and sometimes you can't even tell what is joke (even if rude joke) and what is serious. But that's like this with everything, so doesnt prove anything in particular about RoP and which side has more merit. You gotta look at people who actually put some effort into their written texts, messages and reviews to deduct that.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by TesalionLortus View Post
    [...]

    So no, that's not the kind of article I meant, it doesn't provide any legit points and doesn't prove that "both sides are right" and there is a balance of arguments here
    Shorter version of your post (nicely summed up in the final sentence I quoted): "My opinions are the only 'legit' ones."

    Perfect example of bad-faith criticism.
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD2 View Post
    theonering.net: Amazon's 'Rings of Power' is Awesome for the Casual Fan

    I don't necessarily agree with his taste in every detail, but it's a perfectly reasonable perspective.
    "Perfectly reasonable"? The guy will seemingly swallow anything. Like he has no critical faculties at all, if he didn't notice howlers like:

    - the "climbing an ice-wall with a dagger while wearing full armour" scene. Laughably bad... even some Lara Croft style leaping about with an ice-axe would have been better than that (there's no real sense of danger there because it looks so fake).

    - the "no Elf left behind... NOT" scene

    - the "I can punch through solid blocks of ice" scene

    - Galadriel casually soloing the troll with some sword-twirling - no sense of threat to her, no real choreography (just the twirling), no weight to it at all

    - the "I'll just swim back" scene

    Sounds like the sort of guy who gets mesmerised by the pretty pictures and just sits there, brain completely disengaged. That's not 'casual', that's practically unconscious.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Sounds like the sort of guy who gets mesmerized by the pretty pictures and just sits there, brain completely disengaged. That's not 'casual', that's practically unconscious.
    It's escapist entertainment and nostalgia.

    Bottom line, the guy enjoyed the show.

    Why denigrate people whose tastes are different from yours?
    Dagoreth (Warden) and Belechannas (Lore-master) of Arkenstone

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  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD2 View Post
    It's escapist entertainment and nostalgia.

    Bottom line, the guy enjoyed the show.

    Why denigrate people whose tastes are different from yours?
    It's not tastes, it's claiming something is good when it isn't (at least no one is able to prove otherwise, as far as I looked). So it's being pretentious. I'm not saying enjoying the show is forbidden but if you can't tell why you enjoy it beyond some of the most superficial things that's like - it is NOT a good show and you're not proving that it is. As far as all the merits of writing and cinematography are concerned. I'm not interested if the guy dropped his popcorn or ate it all, I'm interested in actual merits of the show pointed out. By your logic, I might as well say the show is "good" because I watched it and had a good laugh at it, such brilliance, it was soooo good, that's proving that it was good. Yeah, right.


    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD2 View Post
    Shorter version of your post (nicely summed up in the final sentence I quoted): "My opinions are the only 'legit' ones."

    Perfect example of bad-faith criticism.
    No, a good criticism. Saying something is good and praising it with your brain totally disengaged (so how can you even claim your arguments have any merits?) is a total farce. One would think people who call themselves Tolkien geeks and fans would get that but these days it's not immediately obvious, apparently.
    Last edited by TesalionLortus; Sep 07 2022 at 09:06 AM.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD2 View Post
    It's escapist entertainment and nostalgia.

    Bottom line, the guy enjoyed the show.

    Why denigrate people whose tastes are different from yours?
    Not for being simply different, for being one of 'those' fans who just want more of something regardless of quality. Like all he wanted was some vague connection to LOTR, tick in the box, oblivious to anything else. It's a puff piece and oh look, it's on TheOneRing.net, why am I not surprised. They're access media, they'll say whatever to keep that sweet, sweet access.

    As for it being escapist - what has that got to do with poor writing and unconvincing action scenes? Arcane was escapist, a game IP adaptation, but that was sharply written and high-quality throughout (the action scenes in particular) and cost a fraction of what RoP has. Find another excuse.
    Last edited by Radhruin_EU; Sep 07 2022 at 09:28 AM.

 

 
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