CNN: Rings of Power delivers spectacle, lacks dramatic power

[LagunaD2]

There is no automatic virtue in this world. Sadly.

Except for "traditionalists", it would seem.

[Secantur]

Except for "traditionalists", it would seem.

It was actually sarcastic enough to jump straight for the opportunity to point out the Tolkien part, of the little explanation above, chiefly explaining how European literature is made for Europeans with Europeans in mind, given how much love Simon have shown for this material, compared to say, Christopher, not to speak of how convenient it is to have the "Tolkien name" at hand, in case anyone should dare to ask questions about why it looks like modern contemporary cosmopolitan Hollywood activism, as opposed to a fair rendition of the secondary world of Middle Earth, that unfortunately is soaked with all manner of pesky rules and restrictions, especially if you want to do your own thing.

Like not having the rights to most of it! Will have to do with some fillers from the "Dragon Age" series of computer games. Because originality is such a demanding mistress after all! Those pesky Knife-Ears ought to be oppressed. It's a digital cultural memory by now!

Fortunately the creators still reference Tom Shippey, the real expert that had a passion for the actual material. He had to go early. For questioning what these two Bad Robot acolytes were up to. So the Show Runners are not afraid to use people that never really was seriously involved, if it serves as an excuse to obfuscate the subject matter. Like looking into the actual experience of the two hack-writers. With the help of "Tolkien Scholar" Mariana Rios Maldonado. Also known for her “Ethics, Femininity and the Encounter with the Other in J.R.R. Tolkien’s Middle-earth Narratives”. Can't get better than this!


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[DavidmeetHal]

That must be why his grandson, Christopher Tolkien's eldest son, agreed to work on the project and be credited as "Creative Consultant".

I don't know, from what I've seen, his only skill in Tolkien lore is in family name only. Even though I disagreed with Chris on a lot of things, I never could deny that he knew his stuff. But if this son of Chris is a Creative Consultant, he either doesn't know his stuff or his input was "taken under advisement".

[Wolfhelm]

That must be why his grandson, Christopher Tolkien's eldest son, agreed to work on the project and be credited as "Creative Consultant".

The fact that you seem to consider Simon Tolkien to be an expert in his grandfather's works tells me all I need to know about the seriousness of your argument.

[LagunaD2]

The fact that you seem to consider Simon Tolkien to be an expert in his grandfather's works tells me all I need to know about the seriousness of your argument.

An ad hominem attack wrapped in an ad hominem attack - nice!

[Bauglin]

An ad hominem attack wrapped in an ad hominem attack - nice!

Do you have evidence to suggest that Simon Tolkien is an expert on his grandfather's works? If not, you're just compounding the fallacy.

[Wolfhelm]

An ad hominem attack wrapped in an ad hominem attack - nice!

Please explain to me how you consider that to be an attack on you rather than your argument?

You were actually inferring that Simon Tolkien's contribution to the production would be more substantial than just having his surname appear in the credits, weren't you?

[LagunaD2]

The Professor answered his questions personally...

For me the test of a good book was whether it could transport me body and soul out of the here and now into a magical new world, and The Lord Of The Rings certainly did that. After I finished reading it, I read it again and all the time I plagued My Grandfather with endless obscure questions about Middle Earth. What went on in the lands to the East of Mordor? Who were the four other wizards to whom My Grandfather alluded? Where were they and what were they doing? I wanted everything to be filled in. My poor grandfather. He did his best. Despite being an old man, he was endlessly patient in answering my questions.

[DavidmeetHal]

Please explain to me how you consider that to be an attack on you rather than your argument?

You were actually inferring that Simon Tolkien's contribution to the production would be more substantial than just having his surname appear in the credits, weren't you?

I would like to know this too, for I have seen no evidence that he has any expertise to be a consultant. All there appears to be is some name waving by the show’s producers, and Simon saying that he felt suffocated by the success of PJ’s trilogy.

[DavidmeetHal]

The Professor answered his questions personally...

I don’t think a young boy asking questions in the early 70s just before his grandfather passed away really makes someone an expert.

[LagunaD2]

FYI, Simon Tolkien is listed as one of four Directors of the Tolkien Estate Ltd., in the UK government registry of corporations:

https://find-and-update.company-info...42430/officers

[LagunaD2]

I don’t think a young boy asking questions in the early 70s just before his grandfather passed away really makes someone an expert.

LOL!

"No true Scotsman, er, Tolkien..."

[TesalionLortus]

If they had been truly invested in the secondary world, they would know to insert people from other Biomes. By going to those other Biomes! A radical thought, no doubt! But then they would be limited to the race of men. You see, when the Dwarves have names taken from the poetic Edda, it is because they belong in the northern hemisphere. Not the southern hemisphere. Names and history is interconnected. Because you can't have one without the other.

Except I'm sure many among us wouldn't mind if they came up with their own versions of different dwarven clans from different lands, or their own versions of peoples (perhaps even including an off-shoot of elves from a different biome) in empty spots on the map, so maybe we can have a full-on human Asian culture too somewhere. Or if they had Harfoots appear as "browner of skin" read as black, albeit being less of a focus here, and in a way that makes sense and is well-written. If they've done all that... and written well and incorporated into Tolkien's world well... why not? But nope, we've got nothing, so yes...

It is not J.R.R. Tolkien, because the show Runners fail on every level possible.

And a few more levels previously not thought possible, just for good measure.

Exactly.

[Bauglin]

LOL!

"No true Scotsman, er, Tolkien..."

What, specifically, has Simon Tolkien published that displays his expertise of his grandfather's work? His father certainly has plenty to his credit, as do Tom Shippey and Corey Olsen. What has Simon himself offered?

[Secantur]

Except I'm sure many among us wouldn't mind if they came up with their own versions of different dwarven clans from different lands, or their own versions of peoples (perhaps even including an off-shoot of elves from a different biome) in empty spots on the map, so maybe we can have a full-on human Asian culture too somewhere. Or if they had Harfoots appear as "browner of skin" read as black, albeit being less of a focus here, and in a way that makes sense and is well-written. If they've done all that... and written well and incorporated into Tolkien's world well... why not? But nope, we've got nothing, so yes...

LOTRO already did this for the Dwarves. I do not completely agree, because they all were made in the same place, by the same Vala. Which make them pretty similar by nature. More or less identical from the outset. Although then distributed across the world. In the mountains of course.

Elves are by nature long lived and born under the stars. It will be very hard to make me find the plausibility of mutations there. They have extremely resistant features, compared to humans. Same for the Dwarves. They resist outward change by the intent of Mahal their maker, for they were made in a time where Morgoth still was a threat. To the point of not being taken over by the seven rings, that was mostly given to them by an unexpectedly generous donator. Unlike the humans, who turned into Wraiths. After also receiving much generosity.

HOWEVER, I just consulted the Ambarkanta ( the shaping of the world ), and there was indeed a mountain range in the deep south. Which means it is somewhat open for interpretation. If you indeed allow for mutations. But Dwarves also live underground. So the logic behind a hefty sun-block, is questionable. They will have features more resistant to heat, over time, perhaps. But it can also be argued that they were molded in their final form from the outset. The culture might diverge somewhat, as the time passes. Because it is a different environment. Although we are talking about diehard traditionalists. And they live pretty long lives as well. So pardon my reservations. It is quite the stretch to allow for wildly divergent features. I am not talking about my desires here to be clear. I rather enjoy say, the Warhammer Dwarfs. But they come with some features that are not Tolkien ( The females ). I respect the lore, and separate the universes.

BUT DO NOTE, you are 100% right about the skin tones generally speaking. Skin *will* react to the sun, enough to provide a noticeable spectrum. This is written down lore. No problem! But a full-blown mutation is the domain of humans. Because they are more flexible. Which is not a bad thing. Apart from the short lives. Unless you get a gift of some sort.

Speaking of the humans, it is room for all the primary world mutations, because that's how it works. But it is debatable how harsh the sun is, at this time. Prior to the bending of the world. Maybe the sun still works in ways we don't understand though. You can operate with a little "creative license" here. Because it is an actual grey area, as opposed to filling in the gaps with foreign material entirely.


At the time of the Blue Wizards, you can have full-blown Eastern adventures for sure! Or Jungle-Adventures in the Deep South! And it will be totally legitimate! Imagine that!

---

[LagunaD2]

What, specifically, has Simon Tolkien published that displays his expertise of his grandfather's work? His father certainly has plenty to his credit, as do Tom Shippey and Corey Olsen. What has Simon himself offered?

This particular tangent began with the absurd claim "this TV-series is not Tolkien in any way shape or form."

I refuted that demonstrably false claim by pointing out that the son of Tolkien's original literary executor, a Director of the Tolkien Estate (which has absolute control over the original IP), is a Creative Consultant to the series.

Having demolished the nonsense about "not Tolkien in any way, shape or form" now I'm supposed to prove that he's "Tolkien enough"?

Get a grip.

[Secantur]

This particular tangent began with the absurd claim "this TV-series is not Tolkien in any way shape or form."

I refuted that demonstrably false claim by pointing out that the son of Tolkien's original literary executor, a Director of the Tolkien Estate (which has absolute control over the original IP), is a Creative Consultant to the series.

Having demolished the nonsense about "not Tolkien in any way, shape or form" now I'm supposed to prove that he's "Tolkien enough"?

Get a grip.

That is because I was talking about the original author. And how it is not enough to have relatives listed up, as a stamp of genuine intentions. Especially when it is used as a shield to hide behind, so we can't look at the bad writing, the questionable acting, or the cheap costumes. It is much better to engage in endless distractions, or singular fixations! For then they can just carry on, with the most awful spinoff ever made.


Would rather want to know how this show so accurately and passionately manage to conjure up the Secondary Creation of the Original Author. For it is clear that I do not understand the genius of these two inexperienced show runners, in some way or another. Actually in multiple ways, and layers!


( I also feel that most of this already was discussed. )


---

[TesalionLortus]

We *were* discussing the writing and the acting.

I would say the distractions are the repeated spasms of performative outrage and hyperbole over the casting, though.

The writing, acting, and just about anything else about the show could change. But the casting will not.

Except the casting and writing (and how you go about your cast in your writing) are intertwined, but you're constantly trying to prove everyone here a fool, as if you can magically separate one and the other, which is futile.

HOWEVER, I just consulted the Ambarkanta ( the shaping of the world ), and there was indeed a mountain range in the deep south. Which means it is somewhat open for interpretation. If you indeed allow for mutations. But Dwarves also live underground. So the logic behind a hefty sun-block, is questionable. They will have features more resistant to heat, over time, perhaps. But it can also be argued that they were molded in their final form from the outset. The culture might diverge somewhat, as the time passes. Because it is a different environment. Although we are talking about diehard traditionalists. And they live pretty long lives as well. So pardon my reservations. It is quite the stretch to allow for wildly divergent features. I am not talking about my desires here to be clear. I rather enjoy say, the Warhammer Dwarfs. But they come with some features that are not Tolkien ( The females ). I respect the lore, and separate the universes.

BUT DO NOTE, you are 100% right about the skin tones generally speaking. Skin *will* react to the sun, enough to provide a noticeable spectrum. This is written down lore. No problem! But a full-blown mutation is the domain of humans. Because they are more flexible. Which is not a bad thing. Apart from the short lives. Unless you get a gift of some sort.

You're right, no doubt. But something like they've done in LOTRO (which is an adaptation too) could have worked as tv adaptation and I wouldn't mind if this was extended to elves too in some shape or form. We don't know exactly what Tolkien could have meant for all of them to look like and how they developed as people, and we have centuries upon centuries of history here. There is always room for *reasonable* interpretation/theory. So any medium trying to adapt Tolkien and expand on his works has plenty of opportunities to include such things in cohesive manner, with some lore flavor/explanation. You can even experiment with a specific clan of dwarves living closer to the surface and often travelling outside, so they were exposed to sun more frequently over many years and ages. Still mining experts and dwarves at heart with love for stone and mountains but their culture changed a lot over the years *for reasons* maybe they even live amongst men sometimes but near mountains and mines. Who knows, maybe LOTRO will try to explain it in such way with deeper in-game lore and cultural history if they ever get to delve deeper into their Abnuzhu clan, for example. Would have been cool to see. And nothing ever stopped Amazon from being more reasonable as well. After all, it's not about us being hardcore purists, we can understand different interpretation or even some changes. But treating viewers like they're idiots? Not to mention fans? Serving as ###### writing where theyre not even trying? With fake societies, twisted and unbelievable?

At the time of the Blue Wizards, you can have full-blown Eastern adventures for sure! Or Jungle-Adventures in the Deep South! And it will be totally legitimate! Imagine that!

---

Oh yes. They could have just made a full-on fanfiction show in Rhun or Harad that's somehow respectable with the lore. Job well done. Everyone is watching. No one complains. There is representation. All perfect. There are some pirates and Nuemnorean ships. Some canon characters at times. Ancient evil, some orcs at the borders of Mordor, Sauron operating from the shadows and being the show's long running mystery. A character from the Western Middle-earth on a hero's journey under strange stars. Imagine that! Being THIS averagely smart. But common sense is... rare these days. Unfortunately.

[Bauglin]

This particular tangent began with the absurd claim "this TV-series is not Tolkien in any way shape or form."

I refuted that demonstrably false claim by pointing out that the son of Tolkien's original literary executor, a Director of the Tolkien Estate (which has absolute control over the original IP), is a Creative Consultant to the series.

Having demolished the nonsense about "not Tolkien in any way, shape or form" now I'm supposed to prove that he's "Tolkien enough"?

Get a grip.

What I'm reading is that you're not concerned whether a Director of the Tolkien Estate taking on the role of Creative Consultant has the competence and grit to do the job.

That said, I don't envy him - working as a consultant on a high profile project for a multi-billion dollar company is bound to be stressful. I have no doubt that us allegedly evil and moronic detractors are the last of his concerns. However, you seem to be turning a blind eye to the series' issues in order to - what, fight the good fight? Become Amazon's Herald? Honestly, it's not clear, the way you dance around so much.

[Cordovan]

After once again facing a slew of reported posts due to insults and fighting in a thread about this topic, I have cleaned up several pages. This will be the final opportunity for people in the LOTRO forums to prove they can discuss this show without resorting to insults, harassment, fighting, trolling, politics, and abusive behavior. Further issues will lead to permanent bans from some of the players here and new decision-making in our willingness to tolerate the topic of how "Tolkien" the Amazon show is.

[DavidmeetHal]

FYI, Simon Tolkien is listed as one of four Directors of the Tolkien Estate Ltd., in the UK government registry of corporations:

https://find-and-update.company-info...42430/officers

But that doesn’t make him an expert on Tolkien lore. I have seen no evidence anywhere saying that he is.

[TesalionLortus]

After once again facing a slew of reported posts due to insults and fighting in a thread about this topic, I have cleaned up several pages. This will be the final opportunity for people in the LOTRO forums to prove they can discuss this show without resorting to insults, harassment, fighting, trolling, politics, and abusive behavior.

Question, Cord: do you even read through all these posts and their context and actual lore arguments being raised? Because I don't believe anyone here offended anyone... everyone was respectful and offered constructive criticism based on storytelling merits. Reports of insults? How so? Who was insulted? Mostly everyone involved seemed very respectful of each other. The first question I would ask myself is this: are these people mature? did they participate in this discussion at all? or are they being immaturely triggered by something they don't even participate in?

Aside from maybe one instance - no insults, no infighting, no trolling (?), no fighting, no abuse, no harassment here (harassment?! where?). Like 95% of text decent debate and talk. Politics? Hard to tell but this show had literally invited irl parallels and politics so how can you say "discuss it without that" ? It's literally impossible. Hence, my suggestion to make it easier for us all: just admit RoP discussion is being tightly censored on this forum from now on. No honest debate allowed. That would be fair and honest.. and I will respect that decision, but at least be straightforward. I won't say a word anymore because there would be no point (have no interest in fake discussion where I can't feel save to say anything at all), and then problem solved. *sight*

Further issues will lead to permanent bans from some of the players here and new decision-making in our willingness to tolerate the topic of how "Tolkien" the Amazon show is.

But people can discuss how "Tolkien" LOTRO is and even throw slurs at SSG during the course of such heated talks? Why are you being aggressive about everything else like it's a kindergarten but not about bad and overly negative words directed at your own people (the beloved creators whose work I highly respect and am sad when this happens), even though some people clearly go overboard when they express their anger about the game? (which seems to happen frequently on this forum) That's what baffles me......

[DavidmeetHal]

Question, Cord: do you even read through all these posts and their context and actual lore arguments being raised? Because I don't believe anyone here offended anyone... everyone was respectful and offered constructive criticism based on storytelling merits. Reports of insults? How so? Who was insulted? Mostly everyone involved seemed very respectful of each other. The first question I would ask myself is this: are these people mature? did they participate in this discussion at all? or are they being immaturely triggered by something they don't even participate in?

Aside from maybe one instance - no insults, no infighting, no trolling (?), no fighting, no abuse, no harassment here (harassment?! where?). Like 95% of text decent debate and talk. Politics? Hard to tell but this show had literally invited irl parallels and politics so how can you say "discuss it without that" ? It's literally impossible. Hence, my suggestion to make it easier for us all: just admit RoP discussion is being tightly censored on this forum from now on. No honest debate allowed. That would be fair and honest.. and I will respect that decision, but at least be straightforward. I won't say a word anymore because there would be no point (have no interest in fake discussion where I can't feel save to say anything at all), and then problem solved. *sight*



But people can discuss how "Tolkien" LOTRO is and even throw slurs at SSG during the course of such heated talks? Why are you being aggressive about everything else like it's a kindergarten but not about bad and overly negative words directed at your own people (the beloved creators whose work I highly respect and am sad when this happens), even though some people clearly go overboard when they express their anger about the game? (which seems to happen frequently on this forum) That's what baffles me......

I'm pretty much in agreement here. Quite honestly, I really did not get the impression of harassment from either side of the debate. A little heated perhaps, but harassment? I didn't see that from anyone.

[Secantur]

Some people can only "win" debates by Proxy.

Very sociable.


Now the forum is rendered useless.


---

[Wolfhelm]

Question, Cord: do you even read through all these posts and their context and actual lore arguments being raised? Because I don't believe anyone here offended anyone... everyone was respectful and offered constructive criticism based on storytelling merits. Reports of insults? How so? Who was insulted? Mostly everyone involved seemed very respectful of each other. The first question I would ask myself is this: are these people mature? did they participate in this discussion at all? or are they being immaturely triggered by something they don't even participate in?

Aside from maybe one instance - no insults, no infighting, no trolling (?), no fighting, no abuse, no harassment here (harassment?! where?). Like 95% of text decent debate and talk. Politics? Hard to tell but this show had literally invited irl parallels and politics so how can you say "discuss it without that" ? It's literally impossible. Hence, my suggestion to make it easier for us all: just admit RoP discussion is being tightly censored on this forum from now on. No honest debate allowed. That would be fair and honest.. and I will respect that decision, but at least be straightforward. I won't say a word anymore because there would be no point (have no interest in fake discussion where I can't feel save to say anything at all), and then problem solved. *sight*



But people can discuss how "Tolkien" LOTRO is and even throw slurs at SSG during the course of such heated talks? Why are you being aggressive about everything else like it's a kindergarten but not about bad and overly negative words directed at your own people (the beloved creators whose work I highly respect and am sad when this happens), even though some people clearly go overboard when they express their anger about the game? (which seems to happen frequently on this forum) That's what baffles me......

I agree completely. Given the sensitivity of the subject I think most posters have shown a great deal of constraint.