Lord of the Rings The Rings of Power

[Halphast]

... these interviews have nothing to do with the mess the show is imo. It's all over the place. There is not one character I feel connected to. Scenes look very staged. And then there is Galadriel ...

Here's the point that matters. By now there are enough issues with the show, that the color of the actors' skin hardly matters anymore. Let's stop talking about that.

[Echoweaver]

The Numenoreans were supposed to have become obsessed with death and trying to gain more life. (Having them freak out over immigrants instead seems like a clunky political allegory which doesn't work when there's only one Elf and she can't wait to leave). They didn't want Elves around because they'd be a constant reminder of their status (in their own eyes) as second-class citizens in the world. Giving the Numenoreans an inferiority complex based on that so they want to somehow prove a point to the Elves would work because later on, they can save the Elves from Sauron and be all "Not so high and mighty now, are we?" and start casually exploiting the riches of Middle-earth like they own the place.

I'd definitely like to see this expressed more clearly. I'm ok with a bunch of craftsmen being intimidated by the skills of ancient elves, but that's a small corner of the actual Little Man's Syndrome we have here.

It seems better for them to be grumbling about elves withholding secrets from them to keep them from being equals or somesuch. Perhaps the secret of deathlessness itself. I think that's what drove them to eventually attempt to visit Valinor.

It's also interesting that, at this point, we have hostility to elves but not Valar, which you've pointed out. My suspicion there is that we're going to see the re-alliance of elves and men for whatever military action they're planning for the next episode(s), and from that point everything will deteriorate.

Possible, but in that case what's the urgency to build the forge by the coming Spring? And we haven't seen a character who could be in that role. (They like mysteries and hinting at things as a substitute for plot).

No matter where Annatar is, I don't understand what the time limit would be for completing the forge. Elves don't seem to have a time limit on anything.

Plot twist: the real Celebrimbor is already dead and that *is* Sauron, that's why his hair's so carefully coiffured

At that point I will bow to your superior criticism and commence hate-watching.

[LagunaD2]

In the book, it's the Valar that the Numenoreans first begin to resent. They eventually turn against the Eldar because they think of them as spies for the Valar.

And the Numenorean fish seems to have rotted from the head down, as it were, with the kings no longer peacefully laying down their lives when their time came, but instead clinging to life through the debilitation of old age. The kings' subjects then followed their bad example.

[Radhruin_EU]

Here's the point that matters. By now there are enough issues with the show, that the color of the actors' skin hardly matters anymore. Let's stop talking about that.

Tell you what, if there's no more nonsense with Arondir and if they manage to remember to make the bad guys diverse as well, you got yourself a deal.

[Echoweaver]

Tell you what, if there's no more nonsense with Arondir and if they manage to remember to make the bad guys diverse as well, you got yourself a deal.

Most of the bad guys won't be human, though, right?

I guess Al-Pharazon is a sort of bad guy, but he won't deliver his people to Sauron intentionally. On the scale of Tolkien evil, he doesn't rank all that high.

As SSG has pointed out many times, in canon orcs come in a variety of colors. So far the orcs we've seen seem to be a sort of uniform grayish in this show. OTOH, I'm not sure that a broader spread of orc colors will have the same effect.

There's some interesting conversation to be had here about casting diversity this decade, but I'm kind of avoiding engaging in it because stuff like this takes about two posts to descend into true grossness on almost any forum and particularly on video game forums.

The truth is that if the show is good, the skin tones won't matter. If the show is bad, the skin tones really won't matter. No matter what you think about the choices, they just don't matter in any substantive way to the quality of the show. Once there's a lot more of it out to evaluate, MAYBE it's a subject worth returning to.

[LagunaD2]

I guess Al-Pharazon is a sort of bad guy, but he won't deliver his people to Sauron intentionally. On the scale of Tolkien evil, he doesn't rank all that high.

Oh, but he will. And he does.

Arguably the most evil man who ever lives, in fact...

[Radhruin_EU]

Most of the bad guys won't be human, though, right?

There'll be nine Nazgul to find at some point (if they get that far) and if we get to see them at some point before they go all see-through, that'd be indicative.

I guess Al-Pharazon is a sort of bad guy, but he won't deliver his people to Sauron intentionally. On the scale of Tolkien evil, he doesn't rank all that high.[/quote]
Forcing Miriel to marry him wasn't exactly nice (that was some GoT-level nastiness, right there), and later he lets Sauron build a huge temple to Melkor and carry out human sacrifices, and that his own fault for being so proud that he thought he could keep Sauron prisoner. So horrors like that and everything the King's Men got up to both in Numenor and Middle-earth was ultimately on him, plus all the deaths that happened in the Downfall.

The truth is that if the show is good, the skin tones won't matter. If the show is bad, the skin tones really won't matter. No matter what you think about the choices, they just don't matter in any substantive way to the quality of the show. Once there's a lot more of it out to evaluate, MAYBE it's a subject worth returning to.

If the show's good that'll typically include doing diversity in a naturalistic way that fits with the setting (like House of the Dragon is) rather than the sort of tokenism or unaccountable diversity that RoP has. Shows that do 'random' diversity are usually bad and are trying to make up for that by getting positive press just for diverse casting. Wheel of Time was just the same.

[Echoweaver]

Oh, but he will. And he does.

Arguably the most evil man who ever lives, in fact...

Whut? Which text is that from? Not the essay published in the Silmarillion.

He takes Sauron prisoner and brings him back to Numenor, where Sauron plays serpent to Numenor's Eve and convinces her to eat the apple. The island of Atlantis combined with the book of Genesis.

There'll be nine Nazgul to find at some point (if they get that far) and if we get to see them at some point before they go all see-through, that'd be indicative..

Good point. My money is on Halbrand being one of them.

Forcing Miriel to marry him wasn't exactly nice (that was some GoT-level nastiness, right there), and later he lets Sauron build a huge temple to Melkor and carry out human sacrifices, and that his own fault for being so proud that he thought he could keep Sauron prisoner. So horrors like that and everything the King's Men got up to both in Numenor and Middle-earth was ultimately on him, plus all the deaths that happened in the Downfall.

Fair. Saying he was sort-of band was way too kind.

I guess your callout to GoT seems about right. It's a Game of Thrones kind of baddie rather than a destruction of all that is good and beautiful kind of baddie.

If the show's good that'll typically include doing diversity in a naturalistic way that fits with the setting (like House of the Dragon is) rather than the sort of tokenism or unaccountable diversity that RoP has. Shows that do 'random' diversity are usually bad and are trying to make up for that by getting positive press just for diverse casting. Wheel of Time was just the same.

Random diversity isn't the only way to do it, but it's fine. It has zero effect on the story.

The bad guys are the ones so offended by it that they can't let it go when it literally doesn't matter at all.

[LagunaD2]

Whut? Which text is that from? Not the essay published in the Silmarillion.

He takes Sauron prisoner and brings him back to Numenor, where Sauron plays serpent to Numenor's Eve and convinces her to eat the apple. The island of Atlantis combined with the book of Genesis.

He thought he could use an ineffably evil spirit of malice and deceit to overthrow the Valar and gainsay the will of Eru, and despite unmistakable warnings, in his wickedness he compassed the annihilation of his island and (almost) every soul on it.

He was not only the most evil man who ever walked Middle-earth, but also the most foolish.

[Pontin_Finnberry]

He thought he could use an ineffably evil spirit of malice and deceit to overthrow the Valar and gainsay the will of Eru, and despite unmistakable warnings, in his wickedness he compassed the annihilation of his island and (almost) every soul on it.

He was not only the most evil man who ever walked Middle-earth, but also the most foolish.

Um I thought that Sauron's Doing he taught the people of Numenor many things leading Ar-Pharazon and the people against the Valar, which they already didn't like, Sauron just pushed that even further.

[Radhruin_EU]

Random diversity isn't the only way to do it, but it's fine. It has zero effect on the story.

It may well have an effect on the sense of story if you have a complex setting that doesn't reflect modern society. The only reason it doesn't matter in RoP is that they've taken a complex setting and mashed it flat so now it doesn't evoke much of anything except 'fantasy' and loose associations with LOTR.

Generally, though, expecting to see modern-style diversity everywhere a story takes you would be like being a tourist who complains whenever things aren't just like they are back home. The story's there to evoke a different place, time and culture, not reflect some arbitrary notion of "what the real world looks like" from the perspective of one modern urban culture (when not even the real world looks like that everywhere, as diversity means something different everywhere you go).

[TesalionLortus]

The story's there to evoke a different place, time and culture, not reflect some arbitrary notion of "what the real world looks like" from the perspective of one modern urban culture (when not even the real world looks like that everywhere, as diversity means something different everywhere you go).

In my place it means seeing a black man like once per month, or two, or three, or longer, depending on where you are... you'll have more luck in major hubs of course, anywhere else try you luck for a year or much longer. You may have more luck with Asians though, but it doesn't mean you're going to see them every single day either. And you won't find any politician with visible features of other ethnicity, for example. Go and try to find a non-tourist European in Asia too. Or Middle-east. LOL. The only reason such diversity exists in US and some other Western countries (outside of modern day transportation and increased exchange of peoples and cultural interactions, with immigration surges) is the colonial history, and for black people - mainly the enslavement practices of some of these colonial powers. And US in particular is at the crossroads of ethnicities from both Americas, and that of course dates back to conquistadors and what happened back then, with the colonialism of Americas. That's why such diverse populations exists today in some of these places... but that's hardly everywhere and hardly "a 21st century norm" (it's not).

Now, Amazon had a chance to do something great and mirror at least some of the problems, nuances and troubling history of the real world in a real, meaningful way - without any shallow endeavor to "reflect a real world", but merely by adapting a proper story and its premise, with room for a lot of humane, gentle, inclusive diversity at certain hubs and actual appreciation of other cultures in their show (see, THAT'S Tolkien). But instead they decided to have shallow token diversity (mainly aimed at shallow, "woke," ideologically motivated, narcissistic US citizens) and did away with the colonial aspect of Numenorean history completely... plus they're bad writers with more important agendas than good story so they prefer to have this "easy." History doesn't matter, there is no nuance and things don't evolve/accelerate over time. Ar-Pharazon just woke up one day and decided it's a cool idea to play emperor, with ideas of tributes and far away military ports, like a mustache swirling cartoon villain, like it's a game