Where do we go from here?

[ithinkiamserious]

You are right, this is a nerf to creepside. I'm sure Orion has already planned to give classes like defiler a ranged interrupt to dismount freeps on horses so they cant just get away. Or at least I would hope so.

Creep are getting a buff to help them run away easier. =)

Defilers don't need a ranged interrupt to dismount. Creepside already has many ways to do this.

[Ameranth]

Creep are getting a buff to help them run away easier. =)

Defilers don't need a ranged interrupt to dismount. Creepside already has many ways to do this.

Only BA has a ranged interrupt, the rest are melee. Defiler has no interrupt at all.
Spider has no interrupt either but does have cc, though they need to be fairly close to the target since it will move about 12-15m farther away before the induction ends which can cause the skill to fail.

That's it for dismounts when creeps are doing the chasing, and without a dismount it's over before it begins.

For creeps trying to get away, it's just impossible. Even with the increased March speed freeps will still gain 1.5 mps when chasing creeps, and as soon as one gets to within 50m they can dismount and toss an attack to knock creeps out of March, increasing the gain for the rest to 4.4 mps. That's not even counting all the slows and stuns freeps can toss, like challenge which is a 50% slow that can't be cured and has unlimited duration.

No OOC run speed bonus will change the situation unless it's fast enough to match mounted speed or is a bonus that doesn't end in combat, and with either one the moors is over because nobody will ever be able force an engagement unless both sides want to fight. For pvp to work freeps need to be faster than creeps, but at the same time creeps need a way to move around the map in a safe but limited fashion.

[ithinkiamserious]

Only BA has a ranged interrupt, the rest are melee. Defiler has no interrupt at all.
Spider has no interrupt either but does have cc, though they need to be fairly close to the target since it will move about 12-15m farther away before the induction ends which can cause the skill to fail.

Reavers and wargs have sprint they can use.

For creeps trying to get away, it's just impossible. Even with the increased March speed freeps will still gain 1.5 mps when chasing creeps, and as soon as one gets to within 50m they can dismount and toss an attack to knock creeps out of March, increasing the gain for the rest to 4.4 mps. That's not even counting all the slows and stuns freeps can toss, like challenge which is a 50% slow that can't be cured and has unlimited duration.

If you think it's easy to catch creeps, then you should try shuffling on freepside sometime and get back to me. Typically far more freeps are caught and go down on their retreat than creeps when they are retreating.

Spiders and bas can drop slows with no inductions that you don't have to be in combat to use and both of these are very effective.

The group run speed buff from wls is much higher than for hunters, even when hunters trait it to the max (which is almost never done). Bears can't use almost all of their skills while their run boost is activated. For freeps to mount they have to stand still and use an induction skill, whereas all creep run boosts can be activated while the group is moving. Creepside has many mobility advantages, even if they didn't have maps.

[Kate00]

Creepside has many mobility advantages, even if they didn't have maps.

While i'm laughing at this ... explain just how defilers are supposed to chase down and dismount mounted freeps.

[Ameranth]

Reavers and wargs have sprint they can use.

At a 2.08 mps advantage over a mounted freep, for a limited time. Before it expires a Warg can catch a freep who started 41.6m away, and a Reaver just 16.7m away. Outside of those ranges there's no point hitting the skill.

Spiders and bas can drop slows with no inductions that you don't have to be in combat to use and both of these are very effective.

The only inductionless slow BA has is a 20m range. They can drop snares while running away but the animation is very obvious so you just go around them. They only apply if you run over them.

Spiders have no inductionless cc except for a ground effect dropped at their feet. Again, only useable while being chased and easy to go around.

In any case all creep cc can be cleared, and freeps have multiple ways to clear effects on short cooldowns.

The group run speed buff from wls is much higher than for hunters, even when hunters trait it to the max (which is almost never done). Bears can't use almost all of their skills while their run boost is activated. For freeps to mount they have to stand still and use an induction skill, whereas all creep run boosts can be activated while the group is moving. Creepside has many mobility advantages, even if they didn't have maps.

You're talking about freeps trying to escape on foot from a losing fight. I'm talking about creeps trying to engage a weaker freep group who simply stay mounted and just out of range, or creeps trying to escape a stronger mounted freep group who suddenly appear and ride them down.

As a creep I know how futile it is trying to get away overland. Even if I manage to start running while OOC it won't last, because a Hunt/Burg/LM/Mini/Ward with 50m range will knock me out of March soon enough, or a Champ/Guard will catch me in seconds with sprint, and those aren't the only ways. A freep trying to escape has more options depending on class.

Like all other move buffs for creeps, the WL buff is OOC only. It's still lower than mounted speed, and can be shut off by any attack made by or against the creeps.

[Melkori]

Hi Orion,

Dunno if Im writing on the right thread or not but could you please take a look at brands and their immunity?
Neither warleader's "Purge" nor Akúlhun's brand works at the moment. Both of them shakes off stuns/slows etc. but neither of them gives us immunity for these (not againts slows thats 100%, they might give immunity for stuns but Im not sure)

Please take a look at the warleader's "Purge" skill and brand.

Thank you.

Orion, could you please check out warleader's Purge skill? Its annoying Im getting stunned by a rune-keeper stone straight after I used purge.
So not only slows but this skill doesnt cure/give immunity for stuns as well.

Meanwhile I dont get out my spider friends from burrows and my warg friends from stealth, Purge skill change was unsuccessful. Only 1 shake off action when it should give me ATLEAST 6 sec immunity for probably everything... is just sad.

[El_Damo]

Hello all,

Rejoined Creepside after returning to Anor.

One thing that gets me creeping over Freeping is the dedication of the toon. Creeps have all this bag space for Ettensquests. When my Freep enters, they are competing for bag space even with my 6 other bags. Any chance you could include a carry-all just for Ettens Based items. You could even give a small one free as part of a player reaching Ettens age to encourage a visit.

How hard would it be to tag all ettens based items for inclusion in this bag?






Ardamo the Beorning/ Bokes the Blackarrow

[Thurallor]

Question for Orion: I just noticed that there is a "Leaderboard" chat channel. Was that added recently, or have I just not noticed it until now? Can you give me an example of something that would appear in that channel?

BTW, it does not appear in the "Options" -> "Chat" panel for font/color customization (although it does appear in .layout files created with /ui layout save, so I guess you can manually edit it there).

(It also doesn't appear in the Turbine.ChatType enumeration in the Lua API. I'm trying to figure out the channel ID number.)

[SSG_Orion]

Hello all,

Rejoined Creepside after returning to Anor.

One thing that gets me creeping over Freeping is the dedication of the toon. Creeps have all this bag space for Ettensquests. When my Freep enters, they are competing for bag space even with my 6 other bags. Any chance you could include a carry-all just for Ettens Based items. You could even give a small one free as part of a player reaching Ettens age to encourage a visit.

How hard would it be to tag all ettens based items for inclusion in this bag?

Ardamo the Beorning/ Bokes the Blackarrow

I am looking into doing this but it is lower on the list than other pieces.

[SSG_Orion]

Question for Orion: I just noticed that there is a "Leaderboard" chat channel. Was that added recently, or have I just not noticed it until now? Can you give me an example of something that would appear in that channel?

BTW, it does not appear in the "Options" -> "Chat" panel for font/color customization (although it does appear in .layout files created with /ui layout save, so I guess you can manually edit it there).

(It also doesn't appear in the Turbine.ChatType enumeration in the Lua API. I'm trying to figure out the channel ID number.)

That is a piece of archaic chat that has long since lost its usefulness.

[awargstale]

There is a likely change going to make it to Bullroarer that will increase the cooldown on map usage for creeps to a min of 10 minutes. To compensate, March! would get an increase to 45% boost and War-leader's Mobilise! will stay 55%

Will you increase stealth movement speed for wargs, or make march available in stealth or leave warg maps alone? Or what is the compensation for shadow wargs?

[awargstale]

There is a likely change going to make it to Bullroarer that will increase the cooldown on map usage for creeps to a min of 10 minutes. To compensate, March! would get an increase to 45% boost and War-leader's Mobilise! will stay 55%

When you say minimum 10 minutes, does this mean the grams map will also have a minimum 10 minute cooldown? That is a bad idea, I want to be able to map to safety if i need a bio.

[Strider5548]

I don't see them being able to do any of that without massive amounts of dev time they simply don't have the ability to devote. We already know they cant simply apply and remove trait points without resetting the entire tree as they will be doing in the upcoming update. That alone would likely be a massive amount of work to do. Then do the same for Virtue traits. I am not certain they can do that with Skills as we don't lose any skills when downleveled in Big Battles and no skills are added when upleveled in Big Battles. And as for LIs they probably wouldn't do that for the same reason Moors gear is no longer auto unequipped, simply too much hassle for players.

If they were to spend an obscene amount of time on Freeps, I still would rather they remove player characters from the moors and set up a "Freep same as Creep" equivalent thereby allowing easy balance changes. Fully set the Ettenmoors apart from the rest of the game instead of the half done job it started out as.

Yes for sure you are right it would potentially require a lot of time/effort they probably don't have, but I do think there are opportunities to make improvements that may not come at a huge cost. The bold text that I quoted above, for example, has a pretty simple solution. I think it makes a lot of sense to just give players all of their base skills by the time they hit level 50 (a reasonable level to expect players to be able to jump into PvMP, as it was the first cap). We have some random skills (i.e. LM Water Lore) that don't get granted until a player hits their 70's. If all base player skills were acquired by level 50, that would at least knock off one small problem and make sense as a streamlining effort for the game in general.

Virtue scaling is another one that I think shouldn't be too difficult if there's no UI work involved (i.e. just modify stat calculations behind the scenes while in the Moors, but don't update the Virtue Panel).

[ithinkiamserious]

As a creep I know how futile it is trying to get away overland.

Kinda hard to believe. In the majority of common situations it's really easy to get away on creep.

A 10 min cd on maps is nothing. Considering it's a reduction on a lot of really useful maps, most players would consider this a buff by itself. But with the run speed bonus it's an even greater buff.

Hard to believe that anyone except zergers and shufflers wouldn't auto take this trade and consider it a buff, but it's even going to benefit them, though I'm sure the complaining will continue.

[Kate00]

Kinda hard to believe. In the majority of common situations it's really easy to get away on creep.

A 10 min cd on maps is nothing. Considering it's a reduction on a lot of really useful maps, most players would consider this a buff by itself. But with the run speed bonus it's an even greater buff.

Hard to believe that anyone except zergers and shufflers wouldn't auto take this trade and consider it a buff, but it's even going to benefit them, though I'm sure the complaining will continue.

You mean the raiders?

Its interesting that freeps are already in creep ooc bragging about how this is a huge nerf to creeps. That next is renown/infamy gains in groups. I have to ask here ... why are healers and raiders being punished all of the sudden? Nothing about maps is broken. Its worked for 15 years? I dont understand why freeps are fighting on map in spots anyway. Why punish creeps? Help me to understand how this is a good idea and then while you are at it tell me what skill again defilers have that will dismount horses at range. thanks.

[ithinkiamserious]

You mean the raiders?

No. I mean zergers.

I dont understand why freeps are fighting on map in spots anyway. Why punish creeps?

You don't have to be fighting on a mapin spot for creeps to respond to callouts and zerg. Maybe you havent noticed that there are mapin spots all over the map and creeps can be there in seconds. This isn't punishing creeps. 10 min cd is actually a buff to many of the more useful maps and will probably making zerging easier. Be thankful and stop complaining.

[Kate00]

No. I mean zergers.



You don't have to be fighting on a mapin spot for creeps to respond to callouts and zerg. Maybe you havent noticed that there are mapin spots all over the map and creeps can be there in seconds. This isn't punishing creeps. 10 min cd is actually a buff to many of the more useful maps and will probably making zerging easier. Be thankful and stop complaining.

you mean raiders. How do you figure people are zerging in an open pvp map? You act like this is just a creep thing. Maybe you haven’t noticed but there’s huge areas of the map where there are no maps. If freeps are fighting near map ins and don’t want creeps to respond maybe they should move? I mean do you even play lotro?

in any case it’s too late to change now according to freeps. You are getting what you wanted another pointless change when lag is the biggest issue. Another win for freeps and nerf to creeps. Congratulations.

[ithinkiamserious]

you mean raiders. How do you figure people are zerging in an open pvp map? You act like this is just a creep thing. Maybe you haven’t noticed but there’s huge areas of the map where there are no maps. If freeps are fighting near map ins and don’t want creeps to respond maybe they should move? I mean do you even play lotro?

Are you a troll? No one is making creeps map in on call outs. No one is making whole raids map in on call outs. A 10 min cd isn't going to put a stop to this. Maping in on callouts is obviously a creep thing because freeps don't have maps. lol

Maybe creeps shouldn't run to mapin spots and call out when they are fighting freeps?

Even the freep map to GV has a 30 min cooldown and takes up bag space. Would you like the map to grams to be on a 30 min cd and take up bag space?

[Kate00]

Are you a troll? No one is making creeps map in on call outs. No one is making whole raids map in on call outs. A 10 min cd isn't going to put a stop to this. Maping in on callouts is obviously a creep thing because freeps don't have maps. lol

Maybe creeps shouldn't run to mapin spots and call out when they are fighting freeps?

Even the freep map to GV has a 30 min cooldown and takes up bag space. Would you like the map to grams to be on a 30 min cd and take up bag space?

Obviously you don’t pvp in the moors. Freeps take tr and immediately move to gtr to wait for creeps to map in. They are the ones choosing to fight at map ins. This is solely a freep problem.

its an open pvp map. This change is to solely benefit freeps. Please tell me what benefit having all maps on the same cd is? Things with maps have been fine for what 15 years now and is more important than any other issue facing the moors?

where is defiler ranged interrupt to compensate? Is shadow warg getting a buff to compensate for the loss of maps?

it sounds like to me you died in the moors to a raid mapping in. That’s unfortunate.

[LabadalofDorlomin]

The change to maps is reductive. It is a perceived way of solving an issue that doesn't really exist.

We have had this mechanic in its form and Freeps have learned to adapt to it. The fact that Creeps tend to group smaller than Freeps is also a huge factor.

I can see some logic in what Orion is trying to achieve but this isn't the solution. In fact it would have been better to add maps for Freeps than nerf the creeps and add a paltry run boost. I personally don't want to spend my time running around the map looking for elusive Freeps.

The Map is far to large as it is and you just made it far larger for Creeps. This will see a drop in Creep logins which affects both sides.

[Starstruck]

Will you increase stealth movement speed for wargs, or make march available in stealth or leave warg maps alone? Or what is the compensation for shadow wargs?

Plus 1 to this comment

[Daec]

Creeps grouped with a WL can now get effectively get 65% run speed, and solo creeps 55% including in water and through keeps, plus a 10m teleport to numerous locations on the map. I'm at a bit of a loss as to how people are saying mounts are more effective.

[Kate00]

Creeps grouped with a WL can now get effectively get 65% run speed, and solo creeps 55% including in water and through keeps, plus a 10m teleport to numerous locations on the map. I'm at a bit of a loss as to how people are saying mounts are more effective.

how do defilers dismount freeps?

there’s plenty of examples of mounts being more effective along with the math in this thread.

[Daec]

how do defilers dismount freeps?

there’s plenty of examples of mounts being more effective along with the math in this thread.

I and several others asked for efflo to become an interrupt in curse shouter at minimum. Maybe it'll happen one day who knows.

However overall, Creep mobility is easily on par with freep if not superior.

[Kate00]

I and several others asked for efflo to become an interrupt in curse shouter at minimum. Maybe it'll happen one day who knows.

However overall, Creep mobility is easily on par with freep if not superior.

I’d love to get a look on your math on that.