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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,547

    Understanding Defiant Challenge

    Defiant Challenge is a threat copy - of some sort.

    I've always understood it to set my threat to the top entry on every target's threat table, and then add some (moderate) percentage of that threat as an additional buffer. This typical of similar abilities in this game, and others.

    For instance, supposing the buffer is 10%, if Player 1 has 100 units of threat when I hit DC, and I have 50 units of threat, it will set my threat to 110 units.

    (It will also force the targets to attack me for 5 seconds, regardless of threat).

    The above is consistent with the observation that you do not lose threat after the second or third copy, because the buffer is 10% (or whatever) of a larger and larger value, and nobody will be able to catch up with you.

    It's also consistent with the best practice of waiting until some threat has been built on the target, since if you hit DC when *nobody* has any threat, the gain is 10% (or whatever) of zero (although waiting can mean that whatever the target is attacking will die).

    The thing that is puzzling me is that people tell me that *I* need to build threat on the target before using DC. If I had aggro, then any threat I've generated would indeed increase the threat buffer after the copy.

    But if I'm already at the top of the threat table, I have no need to use Defiant Challenge (for threat purposes - of course it's also a mitigation buff) in the first place...

    It will only pad the lead I already have, which is good, but if waiting to fire DC when I already have the lead is good, waiting longer is always even better.

    Suppose now that I *don't* have a threat lead, though, and what I'm taunting is attacking one of my fellows. In that case, somebody else has top threat, and increasing mine before using DC should not increase my final threat level. The only way the threat I generate before using DC will increase my final threat level after the copy is if I reach the top of the threat table and pull aggro before taunting. In which case, again, if I can gain aggro without taunting, I don't need to taunt.

    So - given the way I think DC works - if somebody else is at the top of the threat table, I don't understand why I should wait until *I* build threat to use DC.
    Dagoreth (Warden) and Belechannas (Lore-master) of Arkenstone

    < No Dorfs >
    Fighting the Dorf menace to Middle Earth since 2008

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    154
    I think Warning Shot also has this mechanic? With the shorter cooldown of Warning Shot, I'm all for jamming Defiant Challenge to get the mits up early. At least if Warning Shot goes beyond force taunt?... the tooltips tell me nothing.

    Honestly I completely missed that the force taunt component had been added in until doing a deep dive through Bullroarer. It's not in the tooltips for either of the relevant skills. I'd wager that any new Warden would be completely in the dark about how any of this is meant to function.

    Also does Reflect scale (with level and LI legacy)? Does Reflect damage add to threat? Does Reflect damage get mitigated (thus acting as a defensive) like other classes, or does it operate purely offensively?
    Brynhildn Mistress Over Fear
    Sons of Numenor, Est 2008, calls on all seeking an established, mature and friendly community! Share your path with us and help build your home in a unique Kinship where you belong! SonsOfNumenor.com

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    199
    Quote Originally Posted by WhimsicalPacifist View Post
    IHonestly I completely missed that the force taunt component had been added in until doing a deep dive through Bullroarer. It's not in the tooltips for either of the relevant skills. I'd wager that any new Warden would be completely in the dark about how any of this is meant to function.

    Also does Reflect scale (with level and LI legacy)? Does Reflect damage add to threat? Does Reflect damage get mitigated (thus acting as a defensive) like other classes, or does it operate purely offensively?
    When hovering your mouse over the skill Defiant Challenge, the tooltip clearly states that it "forces up to 10 nearby enemies to attack the Warden." In my opinion, this makes it clear that this skill is a forced taunt. The tooltip also states that nearby in this case means a max range 10.2 meters, that it reflects common, fire and/or shadow damage and that the reflect mechanic lasts for 30 seconds. Furthermore it provides the warden with a mitigation buff (5% of tactical and physical) that lasts for 32 seconds. Seeing as the cooldown of Defiant Challenge is 30 seconds, you could make the mitigation buff lasts as its cooldown is longer then that of the skill itself.

    I do believe the Reflect scales with level. Each level, you reflect a little more. As with all damage types, they could get mitigated as far as I know. It's just damage being reflected back to the attacker, and I would assume it is treated as such. I therefore assume that it is being mitigated by armour and such.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,547
    The damage reflect (with or without tracery) is utterly negligible and does not scale with stats.

    But my question was about the threat copy of Defiant Challenge...
    Dagoreth (Warden) and Belechannas (Lore-master) of Arkenstone

    < No Dorfs >
    Fighting the Dorf menace to Middle Earth since 2008

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    550
    Threat copy ignores the threat you built up yourself. But the later you use it, the greater you lead in the threat table will be. Consider the following two scenarios:

    1) You do not build aggro. The moment you DD (e.g. Champ) hits the mobs, they'll turn onto him, and you have to use DC or risk a dead DD. Your new threat is <threat of his one swing> * <threat multiplier>.
    2) You build up some aggro first. Then your DD starts hitting stuff. Since you have a lead in the threat table, he'll need a few swings to catch up, let's say four. The moment the mobs turn on him, you use DC. Your new threat is <threat of his four swings> * <threat multiplier>.

    In scenario #2, you'll hold aggro four times as long. Probably more than 30 seconds. After that, mobs are either dead, or you can use DC again. In scenario #1, you'll might loose aggro after 10 secs or so, and have no way to get it back for 20 more secs.

    So the trick is to use DC as late as possible, and early enough no one dies. Building up some aggro helps to push back that moment.

    The threat copy "buffer" as you call it isn't 10%, but 785%. Yep, no typo. In your example, if your DD generated 100 units of threat, you'll have 885 units afterwards.
    Source: https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...45#post7488545

    btw general perspective here - I'm not playing Warden, but do Tank with Guard and Cappy. But afaik, threat copy works identically across all classes.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,547
    Thanks for the informative and quantitative response.

    The scenarios that concern me, where I was criticized for using DC too quickly, are slightly different.

    On the first boss of HoR T2, the RK healer stacked Writs of Health on me pre-pull. When the four dorfs went active, they all immediately charged the healer. I hit DC while they were running past me (literally the instant they became targetable and started moving), but they didn't turn around and come back to me until after they had finished their first attacks on the healer. I guess this is because when a mob targets someone with an attack, they generally don't look at the threat table again or pick a different target until the attack is completed (if so, it's one reason why kiting is so effective). The group leader said "noob Warden" and kicked me. I sent a tell asking what I should have done differently, but no response (it was only afterward I realized that the big HoTs were likely the problem). In this case, if DC didn't grab the mobs before they hit the healer, it's hard to imagine anything else like a gambit would have.

    Second scenario was on the AoD bat boss, T3. The little bat adds spawn generally away from the boss, and aggro the healer (I usually have Conviction ticking, but it doesn't seem to be enough to get initial aggro reliably). I might be in the middle of a melee range gambit on the boss(es) and a random selection of my masteries might be on c/d, so it's not guaranteed that I can immediately hit the bats from range with Resounding Challenge (not a taunt, but a solid AoE damage hit to build threat across the room). So the only way to be sure I pull the bats off the healer is DC's AoE taunt. Once they are on me, normal AoE damage gambits like Surety of Death, Brink of Victory and Exultation of Battle should hold them against healer aggro until they're dead. Waiting to build threat before DC means they stay on the healer longer, and since the healer is kiting them, I have to chase for longer, which creates further problems. So here, again, I have a hard time seeing how waiting to build threat before using DC is an improvement. (This was my first attempt at T3; next time I'll try to keep Resounding Challenge in Battle Memory for the bat adds...)
    Dagoreth (Warden) and Belechannas (Lore-master) of Arkenstone

    < No Dorfs >
    Fighting the Dorf menace to Middle Earth since 2008

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    550
    Ok, these situations are a bit tricky.

    At the HoR scenario, I see a lack of communication, and an ...hat group leader. (Insulting & kicking someone isn't critizism.) HoT's on a tank pre-fight are usually not a good idea. Also, standing in place and building up aggro doesn't work here, because the four dorfs are especially nasty and stinky, so you have to start running better sooner than later. We usually do this fight with a Cappy tank who shields the Champ, who in turn builds up initial aggro. (Only works with the shield, else dead Champ.) Then, run Cappy, run.

    What could you have made differently? Maybe RC in Battle memory would work for the initial pull here. And after that, maybe can you do AoE gambits while running without heal for a while? (Any advice from Wardens?)

    AoD bats: Yep, some instant AoE really helps. If you haven't any available, your DD needs to work with you, do some AoE on the bats and then bring them to you. (If your DD is a slightly braindead Hunter who cannot be bothered doing something else than pew-pew'ing the boss, this ofc won't work.)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,547
    Thanks again.

    I asked pre-pull whether they wanted me to kite the 4 dorfs, or face-tank them. The healer said to face-tank (which is my preference whenever possible).

    Having successfully completed it since, the direct damage seems to be all common, and with self-buffs I have over-capped mits and pretty big avoidances. Requires big heals for sure though. Would be much easier with a debuffer, which I've never had yet...

    If I had to kite, certainly one way to do it would be to just have the group hold off while I ran in circles with Conviction ticking, and popping DC a couple times before anybody else attacked them. That seems pretty brain-dead, and would be slow, but with enough patience, as you say, you can build as big a threat lead as you want. An LM + tar, or a Burg + Dust would speed things up by letting me gain enough distance to turn around and build more threat by firing off occasional AoEs at them.
    Dagoreth (Warden) and Belechannas (Lore-master) of Arkenstone

    < No Dorfs >
    Fighting the Dorf menace to Middle Earth since 2008

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    66
    Warden tank can be a bit tricky in this situation bc
    a) blue RK is hugely reliant on pre-hotting a tank (especially warden with no real panic skill) and
    b) warden lacks of utility for certain fights (like this one).
    If RK had a tiny bit of experience with warden tanks he'd at least place his -inc dmg stone or even add Raid Bubble for the first few seconds.
    What I'd suggest to do is after pre buffing (probably with conviction as last one to benefit from HoT-Agro (at least a bit)) do Goad to open up Battle Memory and do Surety of Death. Then Pre-Build Brink of Victory and wait for the dwarfs to enter. When the fight begins you instantly hit Brink and after dwarfs line up you fire off battle memory with SoD. That should easily generate enough agro to hold mobs against any healer and most DDs for at least 5-10s. Ideally you'd have a Champ and wait for big ching-ching until you hit DC. It's crucial to hit Brink perfectly timed at that point where mobs become active, because, as you stated correctly, mobs don't care about aggro switch while executing their skills. There are some fights in this game where the first 10-20s are absolute matchmakers. Like in Anvil ID2. If you figure a way to make it through these first seconds it'll only get easier.
    Any single boss scenario I'd simply start with warning shot. After force taunt runs out chain it with Defiant Challenge. Depending on the fight (like certain add mechanics) I'd follow with a second warning shot. When doing so and still lose the boss your DDs are probably pretty trash and you're free to flame them publicly.
    Warden - Nicl - lvl130
    LM - Telperinor - lvl130
    Burglar - Nicsa - lvl130
    RK - Telpinquar - lvl130

 

 

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