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  1. #51
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    Apr 2007
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    I must say, I strongly dislike the idea of Guardians not being able to use 2h weapons. I like how dps line completely changes the feel for how the class plays. Also many guardians have poured lots of time and energy into a dps LI and I hate how SSG sometimes takes the approach, everything changed deal with it.

    In terms of skills, Guardian's ward, sting, and sweeping cut being looked at is good. Almost all skills are needed for BPE, and having Guardian's Ward open shield skills and sweeping cut open parry skills, and then just get rid of forced opening might be an option. Sting is invaluable for removing corruptions, and for Guards that try to do lots of dps, it is a huge part of their rotation but it doesn't really flow. You just fit it in when everything else is on Cds.

    In terms of bleeds, FoL, debuffs there has been a lot of discussion on how to bring our DPS to being on par with other classes. But we should not be a worse version of champs when in the dps role. Guardians need some sort of utility. That is a discussion for another post though. Please don't take away our 2h weapons.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    Skills that would occupy 1 slot and change with the progression of the chain to which they are associated.

    Parry Response --> Retaliate --> Overwhelm --> To The King

    Yes, this does have some issues with the branching nature of the skills - but that is something that would need to be addressed.

    Again, just some initial thoughts.
    Trying to visualise this a bit better. Currently we have the system on the left with branching paths as you move through the response tiers. The right hand side is a rough interpretation of the linear path it sounds like you're suggesting:


    *red/blue boxes indicate the traitline with access to highlighted skills.

    Technically red does have access to shield-blow baseline they're just not actually going to use it because they are 2h focused at the moment (seems like a fine example of something worth pruning...). All in all this sounds like a downgrade since you'd be stripping away the "choice" part of branching paths unless you configured the 3 chain skills to share response progress i.e. Retaliation upgrades itself to Overwhelm and pushes Whirling Retaliation to Thrust (based on the above example). That might work fine but also get a bit fiddly if you're not really upgrading a skill so much as turning it into a thing with a totally different purpose.

    I'm just not really clear on the rotational goal here, feels like you'd just be hitting the same button 3 times in a row to follow it down the line each time you get a proc. The flyout window sucks but overall I think this is just a UI problem, not so much a mechanics one (outside of BPE responses being an awful concept for a dps spec).



    As a separate point I'd like to voice my preference against going 1h+shield in red, instead I think it'd be neater if red focused on the 2h hammer theme it has going, perhaps with additional bonuses to using hammers/clubs/maces. Would certainly help thematically distance the class from champion (guard being blunt instrument focused whereas champ is more of a refined swordsman).
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  3. Sep 27 2022, 08:43 AM
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    missed the second page

  4. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technician46 View Post
    Hi Orion,

    It seem to me from this 2nd post about guardians that your main concerns for the guardian are skill bloat, what you are calling "skill flyout window", shield & sword vs 2 handed sword and dps (from your "Let's start talking about Guardians" thread). Out of all the issues with the class you chose these. I'm sorry and I don't mean to be rude or mean or anything like that but to be honest this doesn't give me much comfort or hope. There are much bigger problems with the class then these trivial things AND YOUR 1ST CONCERN SHOULD BE OUR TANKING LINE THEN OUR DPS LINE. In my opinion the order of priority should be:

    1) Blue line - tanking line (THIS IS WHAT WE DO AS OF 1ST PRIORITY)
    2) Red line - dps
    3) Yellow line- and what to do w/ it or how to integrated in w/ blue and red line.
    I am going to agree here.

    My response will not likely be as important as 90+% of my play time is solo by choice. That said, guardian has been my favorite role to play, well now that I've tried Brawler that may change, but I love red Guard with a 2H and I also love blue Guard with S&S. Could each do with a few less skills and the fly out window, yeah probably, but blue in particular has a reliance on Ward and Sting that is important to it's rotation. I wouldn't mess with that. Used to be that blue with S&S DPS was poor but it's improved now which makes leveling much easier. I don't see the need to change red to S&S but you could give a blocking buff using your 2H weapon that simultaneously decreases DPS - toggle skill - just in case you're needed for defense in a PUG, though no one would expect red line Guard to defend in a raid.

  5. #54
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    A couple of quick comments.

    First, I personally (though I recognize there are others who feel otherwise) like the idea of a red line sword and board Guardian. It is what the Guardian is, a burley character that hauls around a huge heavy shield that is not just mitigation but is something you can use to lay waste to your enemies. I like the feel of it so much I often go this way playing solo, even though it is less than optimal. (My Guardian is a hobbit, and I swear, his shield is as big as he is...)

    Second, I withhold judgement on your thought about having skill chains progress through in the same skill slot. It could be a real playability and UI improvement, or it could further complicate Guardian play through an effort to streamline it. I'm pretty sure you are fully aware of the (at least) two difficulties in doing this, as others have noted: 1) how to deal with situations where you want to use the first in the chain for specific purposes like Sting for corruption removal and not have to go through the whole chain to get back to it (maybe by having each successive skill include features of the earlier skill, but add to it?), and 2) how to deal with skills that branch off to more than one option.

    As others have noted, thanks so much for your constructive and skillful engagement with the player community. The hardest part in doing so is knowing how to identify good ideas and feedback, while understanding that the playerbase can sometimes be wrong, as we are used to the way things have always been done and don't always pick up on the advantages of doing things in a different way (while also understanding that the most dreaded words that can come out of a developer's mouth after having pushed through a major change that leads to player uproar is, "well, it seemed like a good idea at the time"). I remember when you came in and similarly engaged with us when you had to quickly come up with solutions to the inadvertently wrecked Warden on the release of Rohan (I think that was the time period, but not positive). The fixes you came up with so quickly worked, and that period was my favorite time of Warden tanking. The Warden had always been my main at that point, and tanking when in group play was all I did. Of course, later on when trait trees arrived, aggro was transformed, and BP(and especially)E became increasingly non-viable for tanking, the Warden-as-tank was again wrecked. Like so much of the player base, I left the game at that point and only about a year ago returned for progression play on Treebeard. (I am enjoying it, by the way.) I now only tank on the Guard. I do have a Warden but he is pretty much just relegated to solo play.
    Last edited by Morat; Sep 27 2022 at 09:32 AM.
    The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.

  6. #55
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    Guardian DPS skills

    If any new Guardian skills were to be implenented in the red (DPS) tree, a certain scene within "The hobbit" film comes inevitably to my mind:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeDeN91kwZY
    Fighting Scene at 0:23

    Since I always felt the yellow tree to be a kind of supplemental line to blue or red tree, I could really live without a third active yellow spec.

    Guardians primary roles are:
    1. Tank
    2. Tank
    3. DPS (only in landscape, missions, PvP, eventually in some group content up to 6 person instances)

    It could be nice to have some new support skills in the yellow tree (similar to brawler trees). However, some kind of self healf is essential to have both for tank and DPS specs (like "bring on the pain") .

    Concerning the yellow tree, I liked the original idea, that "marking" a certain opponent would provide some benefit for the group/raid, but the current active yellow tree feels clumsy and unnecessary.

    If the shield and sword (sorry, as I'm, playing a dwarf guardian I mean: shield and AXE) is to get a boost, I'd like to have a more meaingful use of the shield skills (like: knocking opponents down with the shield, cone like attack / rampaging through a crowd of mobs, damage reflect orogonating from the shield use or a shield attack).

    Kind regards
    Rhunar
    Last edited by Rhunar; Sep 27 2022 at 09:53 AM. Reason: typos

  7. #56
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    I'm not a fan of these multi effect skills that are imposed because of this imagined "bloat" concern. If someone doesn't bother to read what their basic skill does they aren't going to figure out how best to use a multi-purpose one in the heat of battle.

    Fly-out: I use it as indicator of availability of shortcut bar skills. However, situationally, they are not often suitable for immediate use; like cancelling the block or parry chain that if continued would give more return or an unnecessary heal pop. (Maybe an indication of what Smashing Stab has been generated would help, loathed as I am to break the block chain.) There's more utility with BuffBars where you can set boundaries for healing pots and skills that heal. Yes, I do want to pop up the Warriors Heart but only when at 20%, Catch at maybe 50% but not until then and likewise cures when they will do some use, but alongside Ignore the Pain.

    Protection should cover the needs of the DPS raid Guardian, maybe needs a check that it does. With forced openers being used more and bypasses does it generate enough to be still useful especially on tactical bosses? Maybe it's covered by these "musings" already? But which of the many tanks we have now are producing the parry and block responses, does a DPS Guard need the right MT class to sparkle especially if being tied to a Heavy Shield use and needing Block responses?

    Axe and Board soloer myself. Happy with the general flow but could take a second off Shield-blow CD. I'd leave the revamp there. None will believe we have a DPS role and will only ask us to tank instead.
    Last edited by DoRonRon; Sep 27 2022 at 10:06 AM.

  8. #57
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    Please leave guardian dps as 2H. Whenever you get around to making this class do relevant dps in red it plays pretty decently right now, it just lacks the damage numbers. If work was being done for red guard I would really like to see additional response gameplay and a focus on bleed damage. Red guard has a pretty decent rotation as it is now, I just feel its bleeds should shine and not its nuking skills.

  9. #58
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    Should only have 2 trait lines for most classes, the guardian is one of them. Most of all keep class roles, I dread the day when classes start becoming one.

  10. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khluzainn View Post
    Please leave guardian dps as 2H. Whenever you get around to making this class do relevant dps in red it plays pretty decently right now, it just lacks the damage numbers. If work was being done for red guard I would really like to see additional response gameplay and a focus on bleed damage. Red guard has a pretty decent rotation as it is now, I just feel its bleeds should shine and not its nuking skills.
    I was going to mention red line bleeds but forgot. Also agree it makes for additional gameplay fun but always felt the ticks feel too slow. I do realize that bleeds add to server slowing but if you don't feel they are a problem then let'em rip.

  11. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bio-Flame View Post
    We can't have this conversation without acknowledging that your co-worker treated your customers very poorly and rudely. It all started there.
    If you understand my frustration and the frustration of most Mini players, then you must know that what I said isn't rude: it's the truth. You co-worker did not do a good job, not on Mini changes and most definately not on comunication.



    If I was rude, then I would argue that your co-worker was even more rude and antagonistic: he wasted your customer's efforts, time, good-will and good faith.



    Orion, things is: you have come to this thread with an open mind. You want feedback and you even said nothing is set in stone. That is commendable.
    I even said that Guardian will be in good hands if you're the Dev in charge of it.
    But not all Devs have had your attitude, unfortunately.


    I don't think this is being rude. Harsh, probably, but not rude. Especially not after what he did to Minis despite our sincere feedback.
    OnnMM has been really active on the forums, and even more on discord, which is more importantly cause there the raiders are and here mostly trolls and casuals. On Ghyn's discord he had a constant discussion about the class.
    So strongly disagree on the communication issue. Also, this wasn't just harsh, it was plainly rude by trying to make it personal.

  12. #61
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    'As a general note, I personally feel that the number of skills avaiable for all classes in LoTRO can be overwhelming. Yes, for most of us who have played the game for a very long time we are so used to the number of skills does not seem too much, but to newer players it certainly can gt overwhelming fast'.

    Please, for the love of god, don't dumb down any classes! One of LOTRO's enduring appeals is that there is unique, even quirky, complexity to the classes that needs to be learned or mastered to play well. If you take that away, it'll be no different than the dozens of other MMOs that have come and gone but not endured because they lacked this above all. No one will thank you for making a class 'easier to learn' at first by nerfing the nuance of what makes playing them fun and unique in the long run.

  13. #62
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    Orion / SSG, I think that you are looking for problems where there are none.

    1) 2H vs 1H&B. We need 2H in red in order to level up. Guardians have always been short of DPS, more when you nerfed bleeds a while back. 1H + shield will be more sluggish without a complete skills revamp which will break lots of unexpected things. Do NOT remove 2H until you are able to offer a similar experience with 1H&B.

    2) Yellow line. When soloing landscape, I play a mix of deep red + some yellow in order to improve AoE (which is what Guardians should excel at) and extra survivality. You already nerfed Radiate ages ago. Removing basic skills such as War Chant -> Demoralizing Anthem / Strong Bursts / Numbed Senses or Redirect is going to take away a lot with no gain. Yellow line matters - a lot.

    3) Skill bloat. There is not such a thing with Guardians. Wanna see skill bloat? Go look at Wardens / RKs or the just revamped Minis. The current state of branching allows for choice which is always GOOD.

    In the end, it is all about choices. This current trend of removing choices may benefit new / casual players but butchers the game that we have and love. It is almost like you are recreating Golden Axe, just bang those two buttons in order. There are already enough oversimplified RPG games around, no need to jump on that bandwagon. What successful MMOs promote is a lengthy engagement with their players. Instead you are trying to effortlessly get everyone to level 140. If you don't sweat over a game, you may like it but you are never going to love it - and you are not going to look back at it when the new flavor of the month arrives.

    Want to fix something for Guardians? Bring back the old thread mechanics or something like that. And if you need to remove the Auto skill bar, you will not find too much of an opposition.

  14. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    Skills that would occupy 1 slot and change with the progression of the chain to which they are associated.

    Parry Response --> Retaliate --> Overwhelm --> To The King

    Yes, this does have some issues with the branching nature of the skills - but that is something that would need to be addressed.

    Again, just some initial thoughts.
    With a good rotation that allows you to inflict at least some dps (365k - 385k without third-party buffs and consumables), several parry skills are simultaneously supported in the active state at once, and after "To The King" we use the previous skill from the chain, again opening access to "To The King". In fact, we do not use the entire chain at once, but combine skills from two parallel chains. Otherwise, the rotation becomes too slow. When combining all parry skills into one button, it will become impossible to activate a new response skill until the already active chain of skills has been used to the end.
    Last edited by Rino90; Sep 27 2022 at 01:38 PM.

  15. #64
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    I'm a pure sword and board player, and mostly around on landscape. A brief comment is that the animations look incredible even to this day. Shield blow is quite nice and fast too. It would be nice if red line offered more love for the shield. Although I'm already quite happy with the result of going red line deep down into blue. Shield Smash feels a little slow, and perhaps should have AoE by default.

    After seeing the 2nd page which clarified a bit, I bid to warn that the guardian shouldn't become a warden that uses parry or block responses as opener, like. shared cooldowns. This would favor just one rotation being used on repeat.

    I do like the concept of linear follow up in the skills from the same button as visualized by Joedangod. It opens up possibilities to play the guardian with a game controller for landscape.

    And like others said, sting and guardians ward IMO are often important in rotations as filler or cleanup. I hardly think any skills could be skipped.

  16. #65
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    CaerArianrhod is offline Rohirrim Scout
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post

    For Guardians, the initial four skills provide us a modicum of insight into what the class can do and as we progress we open up more and more functionality and flexibility to our chosen character, but I think that there are some areas of improvement. As an example, I want to highlight a personal pet peeve of mine - the skill flyout window.

    I am thinking that I am going to make a tweak to the way that this works in the following manner - get rid of it for Guardians.

    How?

    I'm glad you asked. Skills that require a specific response effect like Retaliation, Shield-swipe, and Whirling Retaliation are really meant to chain together off of the combat event occuring from a previous skill. Regardless of when they are earned they are an improvement over the other initial skills you earn as a Guardian, Sting and Guardian's Ward. So, moving forward, I am considering replacing the skills Sting, Guardian's Ward, and Sweeping Cut when the correct combat reponse is achieved.

    But Why?

    Clutter and quality of life, imho. At early levels this might not seem that important but as we level and earn more skills our bar becomes ever more cluttered with skills that can only be used under certain circumstances. Additionally, I think that the disruption in the tradition skill bar by initializing the skill flyout causes an unnecessary break in the traditional APS for players because it requires an awkward key combination or drifting mouseclick to execute. I don't think that anything is lost by combining the skills in this manner.

    I am not sure, that I understand you right, but ...

    "Get rid of the skill flyout window for Guardians"
    Generally a very good idea.
    Most of the time, the skill fly out window is not working (for none of my classes). It needs more than one click to get the skill in it activated, and sometimes the skill is wasted, because of the need for additional clicks. The solutions was/is to put this skill in the normal skill bar and then use them from there.

    But ...
    "I am considering replacing the skills Sting, Guardian's Ward, and Sweeping Cut when the correct combat reponse is achieved."

    That is a dangerous path to go down.
    Do you remember the changes to raid bosses, which basically killed the Warden as an avoidance tank class? Raid bosses ignoring BPE. Make such an important skill like String (corruption removal) depending on a BPE response event is not a good idea.
    If you really want to go this way, you will have to rebalance BPE in the whole game (and esp. in raids). Do you think that would be possible? Regardless, skills like Sting: could you make sure there is no overflow of BPE response events, but also make sure, that there are enough of them to avoid that skills are totally RNG depending?
    I like the idea to make some skill chains shorter, but nor for the price of putting more skills behind a skill chain.

    About Sting: the only one corruption removal skill. Is there anything more that we need to say about it?
    One of the most hated changes for the minstrel was the way how "piercing cry" is working. There is not a single minstrel player in the game, who is appreciating this change. If you put such a skill behind any kind of combat response event, you will need to rework a lot of other things in the game, like: Throne Boss 4 or Remmorchant Shelob, just to name the most prominent bosses with a lot of corruption removal.

    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    I am thinking that the DPS line for the Guardian would shift to sword and shield play over two-handed sword. What are Gurdian's thoughts on this?
    I don't think that this is a good idea.
    Regardless, the already mentioned 100% LI compensation and stats balancing ... why should a DPS guardian use a shield? That just don't fit into the picture of the role.

  17. #66
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    I nearly never post on the forums but read them eagerly all the time. Guardian has been my main ever since I started playing 13 years ago. Thank you Orion for your intrest in the class and also for asking our opinions on the matter of developing it further, I appreciate it.

    I for one would be extremely upset to lose the ability to use 2h weapons.

    When tanking it feels right to wield shield + 1h – you feel heavy, bulky and prepared to take some blows. But imo it’s nice to have a completely different feeling when in red, the shield would just feel clumsy and slow. When swapping to 2h it’s like rolling up your sleeves, getting ready to kick some butts. Would be a shame to lose the agile feeling completely.

    There’s also the matter of our earned stuff:
    - capped LI’s take some effort to build, and in case of removal a full refund should be in order
    - as someone who’s spent a ridiculous amount of time and effort over the years to gather a huge collection of 2h weapons for cosmetics, I’d be quite disappointed having to trash over two vault alts worth of 2h skins just for suddenly losing the ability to wield them

  18. #67
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    i would like to add that i very much dislike the mentality of a lot of people here saying "guardian is a tank, and ONLY a tank, red line should be exclusively for landscape!"
    not sure how people who main this class could prefer having it be the only one-dimensional class (next to hunter) in the current state of the game. the dps line on guardian is plenty of fun, but just not quite rewarding enough at the moment, and improvements to it should be welcomed by everyone, as long as they don't negatively impact the tanking aspect of the class.
    really not sure why there are so many people bashing the idea of a competitive dps line on guardian, while at the same time everybody is ok with cappy, bear, mini and rk working more or less well in multiple roles (mostly depending on when you look at them). yes, guardian is mainly a tank, but literally every other tanking-capable class has one or two other, at least decently useful specs to use. so unless the guardian tank spec becomes SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful, there really would be no reason for it being so one-dimensional. and if that would happen, all other tank specs in the game would most likely become completely useless (and more than half the roster has a tank spec at this point, so that would be a lot of useless specs).
    i don't disagree that the tanking line on guardian has it's issues. it clearly does. very outdated CDs, clunky group buff (or buffs if you count the 2% mits i guess) and skills with pointless debuffs or counter intuitive methods of proccing them. but as it works currently, it is in a good spot. (or at least in a way better spot than it was start of last level cap)

    so in short: please stop bashing ideas that would mainly benefit a spec that you don't care for, since none of the classes should be seen as one spec and one spec only. one-dimensional classes are nothing to aim for, since those are just plain boring (yes, i just called hunter boring, sorry).

  19. #68
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    Those are the comments of people who main a DPS class and don't want more competition for DPS spots XD

  20. #69
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    I think for blue guard the cooldowns should be a little better. Cd's often translate to block/parry/evade, while with boss fights these are not relevent. Would love that if I press Juggernaut my morale is not dropping at the same rate. Give a self shield of the dunedain instead, or a last stand. Also more self heals would be welcome. For example, that guardians ward places a hot on yourself.

  21. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hierona View Post
    I think for blue guard the cooldowns should be a little better. Cd's often translate to block/parry/evade, while with boss fights these are not relevent. Would love that if I press Juggernaut my morale is not dropping at the same rate. Give a self shield of the dunedain instead, or a last stand. Also more self heals would be welcome. For example, that guardians ward places a hot on yourself.
    guardian's CDs are highly situational. in some fights, especially as the boss tank, jugg is just basically not gonna do anything (WOW! i'm blocking auto attacks, cool!). but in other situations, especially as add tank (excluding b2 BT), jugg is by far THE most cracked CD in the game due to bolstering blocks: you stop almost all incoming damage while just healing to full from it in no time PLUS it's source of state immunity.

    on the self heal side i will have to say guardian is in an amazing spot. used right you can self sustain for a very long time, especially if you combine CaB or thrill with the increased morale from WH. CaB itself is very powerful as well. and having more self heals would essentially render healers useless in a lot more content thanks to litany and SW.

    what guardian needs is content to change. simple as that. stop making tank damage spiky and unavoidable. stop shredding mits with every tank swap mechanic. and work on making avoidances useful again (merge bpe into one stat pls ty).
    as a bonus make the one dps buff that guards provide usable when every other dps buff in the game is used: as soon as the fight starts.

    also the fact that shield blow does not open a block response if the skill got avoided is incredibly inconvenient, especially since most other skills that work like that proc their buff regardless if they hit or not.
    and adaptability getting removed when using certain skills just incentivises not using skills in the first place (pretty fun gameplay, amirite?)

    rest on blue guard is pretty much fine or an issue that is true for ALL the tank specs (aggro 100% relying on taunts and not on any other skill usage and high finesse requirements with gear that simply doesn't provide enough finesse to reliably generate threat without just using taunt and afk)

  22. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    Guardians hold a significatnt role in The Lord of the Rings Online. As the initial and only true tank at the launch of the game, the guardian was initially a real meat-shield of character having strong mitigations and high morale that allowed them to take the beating for the rest of the Fellowship. Time marched on and the Guardian has seen some changes, but nothing of a significant magnitude outside of the largest change that affected all classes with the introduction of the trait tree system.

    Now, this is a very early peek into what I am thinking about for the Guardian mostly taken from my playthrough of the class at this point. None of these suggestings are set in stone - everything is very fluid and malleable and we are not looking at these changes coming to game any time before 2023 at the earliest. I wanted to start the dialogue early and start explaining some of my thoughts.
    Nice, thank you for asking and sharing at such an early stage.

    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    On Skill Plays

    As a general note, I personally feel that the number of skills avaiable for all classes in LoTRO can be overwhelming. Yes, for most of us who have played the game for a very long time we are so used to the number of skills does not seem too much, but to newer players it certainly can gt overwhelming fast.

    For Guardians, the initial four skills provide us a modicum of insight into what the class can do and as we progress we open up more and more functionality and flexibility to our chosen character, but I think that there are some areas of improvement. As an example, I want to highlight a personal pet peeve of mine - the skill flyout window.

    I am thinking that I am going to make a tweak to the way that this works in the following manner - get rid of it for Guardians.
    I am 100% down with the idea, with the one caveat being if you make it TOO simple you make it boring.

    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    How?

    I'm glad you asked. Skills that require a specific response effect like Retaliation, Shield-swipe, and Whirling Retaliation are really meant to chain together off of the combat event occuring from a previous skill. Regardless of when they are earned they are an improvement over the other initial skills you earn as a Guardian, Sting and Guardian's Ward. So, moving forward, I am considering replacing the skills Sting, Guardian's Ward, and Sweeping Cut when the correct combat reponse is achieved.
    I like it, especially on a dps Guardian. The way Guardian plays is a little clunky because of the parry and block responses. It's OK on longer fights, annoying and frustrating on most landscape or trash pulls in instances. In instances where you're not tanking you often are not even getting attacked - so linking those skills to parry or block responses is a little strange. Personally, Id just get rid of the parry response or link block/parry skill chain together and just condense the dps chain skills(or upgrade the basic skills as you said).

    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    But Why?

    Clutter and quality of life, imho. At early levels this might not seem that important but as we level and earn more skills our bar becomes ever more cluttered with skills that can only be used under certain circumstances. Additionally, I think that the disruption in the tradition skill bar by initializing the skill flyout causes an unnecessary break in the traditional APS for players because it requires an awkward key combination or drifting mouseclick to execute. I don't think that anything is lost by combining the skills in this manner.
    Hmm, I agree with the one caveat I mentioned earlier. If you take away too much to avoid clutter you can make it boring. I think the trick to this simplification/quality of life is going to be to provide some choices still in what skills are used and why. For example, when tanking there are some choices and timing considerations that are involved in when to use what response skills. Do you want a stun, an area stun, better defense for a short period, etc...? I love tanking in this game, and I have a lot of fun playing Guardian in Gundabad. One of the things I love about it are those moments that let you make smart skill choices at critical times to make things smoother.

    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    What?

    What happens to the traditional skills? They would either a) be removed and only appear instead of Sting)Improved), Guardian's Ward, and Sweeping Cut, or b) be replaced by new response shifting skills for parry, aoe parry, and block responses.

    That'a mt initial thoughts on the way that some of the skills play for Guardian and the tactic I am taking for refining some of the class functionality.
    I think this would all depend on cooldowns. If the upgraded skill shares a cooldown with Sweeping Cut for example, I think it might be a little annoying to have it grayed out because you used the lesser version. Maybe you could combine some of the block and parry skills to share the same trigger and just condense the skills down along with combining them. That way we are talking about maybe 6-7 skills with 2 or 3 of them being response related specifically and a couple others like Ward or Sweeping Cut getting upgraded either with a response or after using one of the handful of response skills. I think that would be manageable.

    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    Anything else?

    Sure, this is a larger question that is going to require more discussion for certain.

    I am thinking that the DPS line for the Guardian would shift to sword and shield play over two-handed sword. What are Gurdian's thoughts on this?
    If you make this change, please do it soon or at least announce it soon. I would be very annoyed if I invested heavily in a 2-handed LI just to then feel compelled to make a 1h and find a dps shield. We're not quite there yet, but once I start putting teal or gold enhancement runes into an LI it would be very uncool to make it outdated. I dont care really, aside from that.

    I think it would make Guardian a nice tough little dpser and allow for some interesting niche skills like Break Ranks in a dps line to give Guard a chance to be useful aside from just tanking in a group. Red-line Minstrels are actually pretty amazing right now in a group; I wouldn't mind Guardians being able to step into another role without feeling like a handicap.

    On that note, are you considering combining trait lines ala Brawler and now Minstrel? I think it might be easier as a developer to handle 2 lines rather than 3, and allow for the classes to more easily be balanced. I actually like the idea of it - most classes only really use 1 or 2 lines right now anyways. That said, if you didnt know, Red-line and Yellow-Line are in a weird place right now. I and many others I know actually prefer to solo in Yellow rather than Red. It offers just enough dps to not be painful but with some better survivability. You cannot actually tank anything too serious in yellow with a 2 hander anyway or with a shield, so its just this strange trait line that encroaches on the Red-lines territory and Blue. It has some nice debuffs and survivability but is awkward to take in groups because it also has all the aggro skills. Id love to see some of it moved into red, some into blue, with some of the utility for both to take as needed like Brawler or Minstrel.

    Thanks Orion, and be careful with my baby!
    Last edited by Dosiere; Sep 28 2022 at 06:19 PM.

  23. #72
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4
    I been playing a guard for a long time i do not think it has any skill bloat.. but if you want to combine Shield-Swipe > Bash > Shield-Smash into one button that auto switchs in turn and add the effect of Shield-Taunt into smash.. that would be cool and make break ranks its own skill.

    I love the idea of a sword and board dps class i use to love gladiator warrior in WoW when that was a option but i would not want to take away 2h from the ppl who enjoy it. Idk about yellow i kinda want it a support tree like brawler and now mini.. but some ppl love yellow grd.. either way its going to be alot of work thanks for posting and good luck.

  24. #73
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    84
    Orion:

    These are some interesting ideas.

    For Red (DPS) trait tree:

    1H and Shield is, for me, absolutely iconic.
    However, as there are many 2H LIs already in use, can the team greatly increase the shield DPS for the combination of shield & 1H to be roughly on par with a 2H?
    Or increase physical mastery / finesse (on the shield) so that the actual damage calculated by the monster is the same, but a slightly different play style than the 2H? (e.g. Only shields need rework or some passive traits when employing the shield, rather than trawling through the whole loot table to change 1H and causing collateral damage to other class 1H damage)

    While streamlining the flow of combat keystrokes has some virtues, it may reduce some of the immersion.
    Most combat is handled similar to a table top game where the player rolls to hit and then, if lucky, for damage.
    Then the monster rolls to hit and then for damage.
    Only dice rolls. Ho humm. Very boring.

    Presently, the guardian actually "feels" as if it is in combat.
    Monster hits the player character.
    But it is a parry! Ok that opens up different responses.
    Or the attack was blocked by the shield. A second line of responses.

    Does the player character start the battle with a shield attack and then the 1H? (Choices! and they matter!)

    This feels more like an actual battle than just push a couple of generic buttons and done!

    Context: Landscape, PvE, low to mid levels.
    How this works in mounted combat, instances, higher tiers and PvMP is firmly up to the Orion and the dev team.

    Regards
    Aurora7
    Refugee Status: Veteran (Windfola, Bombadil, Ithil, Anor, and Coming SoonTM - Treebeard)

  25. #74
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    10
    I've been playing a 1 hand and shield, yellow guardian for quite some time now and while it's not a common or probably practical set up, it is enjoyable to play. So, hearing about a potential for 1 hand and shield DPS line got me excited. As long as there is still the option for 2 hand guardian because a lot of people like that play style and variety is a good thing.

    The question is how to implement better 1 hand dps? Do you turn yellow tree into 1 hand dps or make it a utility tree like the brawler and give people the choice of selecting between 1 hand or 2 hand specific traits?

    How about increasing damage on some of the shield skills or making shield-swipe and / or bash aoe ?
    1 hand and shield could be the aoe dps and 2 hand the single target dps ? But then that's too much like champ.

    How about skills with different damage amounts depending on the number of targets being hit.
    Ex. If you combine retaliation and whirling retaliation into one skill and give it x damage on multiple targets and x(2) on single target. Just throwing that number out there. It would obviously have to be tested to insure the proper increase.
    Same could be done for a shield skill or two.

    Of course, gear makes a difference too.
    1 h and shield with tank gear shouldn't be able to compete with a dps class but why not 1 hand and shield with dps gear and virtues?


    Thank you, Orion, for reaching out to the community for feedback and thank you community for the feedback. The more opinions and ideas that are shared the better the final results of the changes should be

  26. #75
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    1
    I i am a main Guardian on Evernight Server and like to do group content wenever i have oportunity.

    Some skills and skill rotations should change to improve flow of the fight.

    Shield combinations could be more direct to Agro Build or to Damage:

    after a Block responce or (Shield Blow)

    --> shield Taunt --> Shield Smash
    --> Shield Swipe --->Bash--> Shield Smash

    Let if Fly - Useless at the moment = AA "mabe if it added some slow or miss chance"

    Stagger- for Blue Line or solo it will never work because you need to be behind target to aply the deebufs.
    (Mabe move this skill to red line)

    Shield taunt - should not proc (Break Ranks) because sometimes we need to build agro but dont want to lose endurance stack

    The skill for that could be another one like : Litany of Defiance or Smashing Stab

    Litany of defiance- almoust never used because its so dangerous . If your in a Raid you will probably get yourself killed.
    This skill could aply a bubble on felowship with 10% for Guardian max Health and aply the 2% phisical and tactical mits for 15Secs while activating break ranks and taunt
    ( but getting 10% of all felowship members damage can quickly kill you if some players are taking damage from mobs you could not agro.

    Also the Vitality ratio for Guardians could be pulped a bit up in relation to non tanking classes like it was before.

    Here is my opinion ans contribution to this tread . Please coment what you think and share your ideas.
    Cheers
    Here is my part of the
    Last edited by SilverPT84; Oct 06 2022 at 03:43 AM.

 

 
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